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PuPP's Theories Forum > ANCIENT HISTORY > STRANGE SKULLS


Posted by: Mark Nov 14 2003, 11:13 PM
Comment: After looking at some of these skull images and busts, I think back and recall how big the headresses were that the Egyptian Pharoahs wore and the Top Hats of the Americans and Europeans of the 17th and 18th centuries.

Here's an image of a bust from Cairo, Egypt.
(Nefertiti?)

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I believe this is the same bust as above but not completely positive.

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QUOTE
Skulls from Ica, Peru and Merida, Mexico

These skulls were photographed by Robert Connolly on his trip around the world during which he was collecting materials about ancient civilizations. The discovery of unusual skulls was thus an unintended "spinoff" of his efforts. Robert Connolly published his photographs on a CD-ROM, titled "The Search For Ancient Wisdom", Cambrix, 1-800-992-8781, in 1995.


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QUOTE
The data about the skulls is incomplete, and that makes the correct assessment of their age, context with other hominids, as well as placement of their origin extremely difficult. Some of the skulls are very distinct, as if they belong to entirely different species, remotely similar to genus Homo. The first thing that attracts attention is the size and shape of the cranium in all the specimens. There are 4 different groups represented in the pictures. As a matter of convenience, I labeled them "conehead", "jack-o-lantern" or "J" and "M" based on the shape of the skull, except the first and possibly earliest type of skull, which I call "premodern".



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QUOTE
When some of these pictures (the first two) were posted on CompuServe more than year ago, the majority of people assumed that they represented an example of binding of the head, well known to be in fashion in ancient Nubia, Egypt and other cultures. The problem with this theory is that the inside of the cranium of the mentioned skulls, although elongated and with a back sloping, flattened forehead, have the same capacity as normal human skulls; the only difference is the shape achieved by frontal and side deformations. They are actually more similar to the first type of skull (premodern) with the rounded back, than the conehead type. The cone-shaped types of skull are not found amongst the usual skull-binding samples.

The first skull presents problems of its own. The frontal part of the skull seems to belong to an individual of the pre-Neanderthal family, but the lower jaw, though more robust than modern human type, has a modern shape and characteristics. The shape of the cranium does not have any comparison with the Erectus, Neanderthal types, nor the modern human type. Some minor Neanderthal characteristics are present, as is the occipital ridge on the bottom back of the skull and the flattened bottom of the cranium, other characteristics point more tovards Homo Erectus. The angle of the cranial bottom is, though, unusual. We cannot exclude the possibility of a deformed individual in this case, but it is highly unlikely that the angle of the frontal part would require a modification of the lower jaw in the process of growing to resemble modern human types with their projected chin rim. The answer seems to be that the skull belongs to a representantive of an unknown premodern human or humanoid type.

As is obvious from the comparison with a modern human skull, the cranial capacity lies within the modern human range. This is not surprising, since the late Neanderthals and early modern humans (Cro-Magnon) had larger cranial capacities (both roughly 1600 ccm to 1750 ccm) than modern humans (av. 1450 ccm). The decrease of the cranial capacity (sudden at that -- the specimens of modern humans after about 10500 BCE have smaller craniums) is a puzzling matter, but that´s another story.

No less puzzling is what a representative of a premodern human type is doing on the South American continent. According to the orthodox anthropology, this skull simply does not exist, because it cannot be. Textbooks´ oldest date of appearance of humans in North America is about 35000 BCE and much later for South America, based on the diffusion theory assumptions. The only accepted human types entering the continent are of the modern anatomy. There are some other sources that place all types of human genus in both Americas at much earlier dates based on numerous anomalous finds, but the academe sticks to its preconceived notions, no matter what. It´s safer.



More info and images below...

http://www.enigmas.org/aef/lib/archeo/askulls.shtml

This site also has some good images.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_6.htm


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PARTIAL SUMMARY IMAGE
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Below is a collage of a few of the images found in these pages.

Enjoy!
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Posted by: Mark Aug 12 2004, 01:17 AM
These are all of the weird "human?" skull images I have archived from various places on the internet.

=======================================================


Does this skull below resemble the busts from Cairo above?

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Here's a side by side comparison with the skull image rotated.
It looks similar to me, but not exact.

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Many of these images below originated at
http://www.light1998.com
(which is no longer online at the time of this post)
http://www.enigmas.org/aef/lib/archeo/askulls.shtml
and
http://www.stevequayle.com


Most of these skulls were photographed by Robert Connolly on his trip around the world during which he was collecting materials about ancient civilizations. The discovery of unusual skulls was thus an unintended "spinoff" of his efforts. Robert Connolly published his photographs on a CD-ROM, titled "The Search For Ancient Wisdom", Cambrix, 1-800-992-8781, in 1995.







Compare the size and shape to that of a normal skull.
Some claim it's merely a result of head binding which was also practiced by the Paiute Native American Indians and by some African tribes.
I believe they were trying to emulate their half human "Gods" which had much larger skulls than a normal person.

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I am amazed everytime I see these.

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Starlyte once asked where my avatar came from. nyuknyuk.gif

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I don't believe any amount of head binding will achieve a skull this size. But it's just my opinion. I'm no archaeologist with a degree in cover-ups.

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Same image as above, but notice that the card has been removed that says "deformacion frontal"

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But wait...it gets stranger...

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This one below reminds me of that Dracula movie with Keanu Reeves.

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Several human skulls with horns protruding from them were discovered in a burial mound at Sayre, Bradford County, Pennsylvania, in the 1880s.
http://www.subversiveelement.com/History_Unusual_Remains.html

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The Vatican Museum possesses Michelangelo's famous statue of Moses.
http://www.progressivetheology.org/SNT/SNT-2004.02.22.html
The most striking feature of the statue, however, is the pair of horns protruding from the top of his head, just behind the hair line.

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Hope you enjoyed the pics!

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Posted by: Survivalist Aug 12 2004, 07:08 PM
AN excellent pictorial of other races' bones, PuPP. I too, don't believe binding was involved.


If you consider the "ALIEN" creatures head, remove the arch from it's skull and shorten the teeth,.... Wallah! You have the "Cone Heads" as seen on old Saturday Night Live with Dan Ackroid and Jane Curtain, and HERE on this thread. I try to fathom just how many civilizations could there have been on this 4,000,000,000+ yrs old planet. I can't believe what is traditional.

Posted by: Mark Aug 12 2004, 08:00 PM
Hey Surv, thanks for your input.

I remember those days of SNL as well as the Conehead movie.

What was the saying...

"We consume mass quantities"

That describes the current civilization we live in quite well.

What I'd really like to see is what the race looks like that mated with hominids to produce the part human hybrids with the large skulls that became the ancient rulers and were revered as Gods.

Posted by: Seralia Aug 12 2004, 08:55 PM
Very interesting images of the skulls PuPP. The slope-head skulls, as I call them, have been found both in Peru and America. In 1888, seven skeletons were unearthed in Clearwater, Minnnisota that not only had skulls that were described as "low and sloping" but the skulls had double rows of teeth in their upper and lower jaws.

There have been several attemts to explain the anomalies as being caused by head binding which is absured since none of the skulls have any characteristics that would be consistant with head binding. To put it simply, when a skull is shaped by binding, a skull's upper bones are squeezed out of their natural shape which leaves them permanently separated and results in a "soft spot" at the top of the head.

I did some checking and found some more information on them.

QUOTE
"When some of these pictures were posted on CompuServe, the majority of people assumed that they represented an example of binding of the head, well known to be in fashion in ancient Nubia, Egypt and other cultures. The skull binding was a primitive practice in which a person's head was tightly bound with cloth or leather straps throughout his lifetime, causing the skull to grow in this dramatic way.

Anthropoligists however have admitted that the shapes of the Peruvian skulls is unlike the deformity caused by binding.

The skulls shouldn't exist

The skulls are a real problem for the anthropoligist. The frontal part of the skull seems to belong to an individual of the pre-Neanderthal family. But the lower jaw, though more robust than modern human type, has a modern shape and characteristics.

The shape of the cranium is completely different from Homo Erectus, Neanderthal types, and the modern human type. Some minor Neanderthal characteristics are present, as with the occipital ridge on the bottom back of the skull and the flattened bottom of the cranium, but other characteristics point more towards Homo Erectus.


http://www.s8int.com/giants3.html

There was also a skull that was found in Mexico in 1922 that looks very similar to the Peruvian skulls. Unfortunately I can't left click the image so you'll have to go to the site to view the image. headbanger.gif

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Races.html

I found some more information here that is somewhat perplexing. scratchinghead.gif

Skulls from Ica, Peru and Merida, Mexico

QUOTE
The first skull presents problems of its own. The frontal part of the skull seems to belong to an individual of the pre-Neanderthal family, but the lower jaw, though more robust than modern human type, has a modern shape and characteristics. The shape of the cranium does not have any comparison with the Erectus, Neanderthal types, nor the modern human type. Some minor Neanderthal characteristics are present, as is the occipital ridge on the bottom back of the skull and the flattened bottom of the cranium, other characteristics point more tovards Homo Erectus. The angle of the cranial bottom is, though, unusual. We cannot exclude the possibility of a deformed individual in this case, but it is highly unlikely that the angle of the frontal part would require a modification of the lower jaw in the process of growing to resemble modern human types with their projected chin rim. The answer seems to be that the skull belongs to a representantive of an unknown premodern human or humanoid type.


http://www.enigmas.org/aef/lib/archeo/askulls.shtml

As for the horned skulls, the ones that were found in Pennsylvania were said to have disappeared, but the image of the one that you posted is supposedly in a French museum and unfortunately appears to be the only image of such a skull.

Posted by: Mark Aug 12 2004, 09:51 PM
Hi Seralia,

I took a screenshot of the Amazon skulls from your link.
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Races.html

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Some text from the link above...

"In 1833 the skeleton of a man 12 feet tall (3.6m) was unearthed by soldiers digging a pit for a powder magazine in Lompack Rancho, California. It had a
double row of teeth and was found with a bonanza of huge stone axes, carved shells and blocks with symbols carved on them. The remains were reburied and the location 'forgotten" when the locals saw this as proof of their "pagan" legends of giant gods.

In 1856 a skeleton of a 10' 9" human (3.28 metres) was found in West Virginia while ploughing a vineyard. Local law took the skeleton and said it was a hoax because 3 bullets had been found in the skull. What this had to do with anything or the rest of the huge skeleton is anyone's guess."

I took a couple more screenshots from the website and posted the text below.

"Found in Mexico in 1926, this skull is that of an adult who lived to an old age. Unlike usual birth or genetic "defect's, this skull is perfectly formed and proportioned - showing no abnormal thickening or anotomical deformaties caused by it's odd shape...it is a perfect skull of a being who lived and functioned with this type of anatomy."

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In 1911 several mummified remains of red haired humans were found in Lovelock Cave about 70 miles NE of Reno, Nevada. They stood about 6.5 to 8 feet tall (2-2.5 metres) and were mentioned in the local legends of the Piute Indians of the area. Scientists were reluctant to look at the bones, most of which ended up being thrown away by miners. A few, including this skull which is almost a foot long,, is at the Nevada Historical Society in Reno.

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Note: here in So Calif as a small child I noticed that almost ALL of the tall white kids were red haired and they are a foot or more taller than me.

The other tall kids were blacks.

I believe this race of giants has always been here, has interbred to become smaller and they are not all nice folks. Though I also believe there are many gentle giants as well.


Ye shall know them by their fruits

And of course, if they try and eat you!
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If you havn't already read the http://pupp.mentalstimulation.com/secret.htm I highly suggest that you do!

"When they shall rise up against us we will crush them like insects, for they are less than that."
http://pupp.mentalstimulation.com/secret.htm



THE NEPHILIM ARE STILL HERE!

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Posted by: Mark Aug 12 2004, 10:34 PM
http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/N.Am/hidden.proofs.giant.race.html

4. Although the Romans 'would eventually devise methods of defeating these giant warriors, attacking long legs that couldn't be guarded by the massive shields these creatures carried, the blue-eyed, blond giants inspired terror among those facing them in battle for the first time.

The Nazi ideal "superman" was a blue-eyed, blond giant;
=====================================================

Did the Roman Empire form an alliance and interbreed with the giants?

IMO, yes!

From my studies, I find we live in a society influenced by ancient pagan cultures and occult symbolic days (holidays) disguised as religious or christian holidays.

We have the jews who weild immense influence in the news media, hollywood, central banks (the federal reserve) that controls USA monetary system which has bankrupt America and their powerful influence in govt.

We have the giant offspring who make enormous sums of money playing sports and others who work in government getting free health care and a pension for life while we have over 3 million people homeless in America.



Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 13 2004, 08:00 PM
QUOTE
In 1911 several mummified remains of red haired humans were found in Lovelock Cave about 70 miles NE of Reno, Nevada. They stood about 6.5 to 8 feet tall (2-2.5 metres) and were mentioned in the local legends of the Piute Indians of the area. Scientists were reluctant to look at the bones, most of which ended up being thrown away by miners. A few, including this skull which is almost a foot long,, is at the Nevada Historical Society in Reno.


I never heard of that one but it does make a lot of sense since China at one time was inhabited by tall red and blonde haired people.

Red Haired Mummies of China

QUOTE
Recent excavations in the Tarim Basin in Xinjiang province have uncovered more than 100 naturally mummified corpses of people who lived there between 4,000 and 2,400 years ago, indicating that the Aryan race of red and blonde hair with blue eyes lived in this area at one time. The bodies were amazingly well preserved by the arid climate, and according to the New York Times "...archaeologists could hardly believe what they saw."

The mummies had long noses and skulls, blond or red hair, thin lips, deepset eyes, and other unmistakably Aryan features. Dr. Victor H. Mair of the University of Pennsylvania said, "Because the Tarim Basin Caucasoid corpses are almost certainly representatives of the Indo-European family, and because they date from a time period early enough to have a bearing on the expansion of the Indo-European people from their homeland, it is thought that they will play a crucial role in determining just where that might have been."  ( Personally I believe that the opposite is true. I believe that  the European Man came out of  or was part of this pre-existing culture that has been found around the world...including China. ..Sutherland)


http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummieschina.html

It seems that these mummies were found in other places as well and there are plenty of pictures to prove it.

Red Haired Mummies of Canary Islands

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiescanaryislands.html

And this is no surprise since Cleopatra was really a red head with blue eyes. rolleyes.gif King Ramses II was also a red head BTW.

Red Haired Mummies of Egypt

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesegypt.html

And of course they were in Peru.

Red Headed Mummies PERU

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesperu.html

It seems that I hit the jackpot here. cool.gif

Tribe of Dan ..Nordic Gods...ET.. Alien Gods
The History of the Red Haired Race

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedrace.html

DNA EVIDENCE NOW SUPPORT THE THEORY OF A PREVOUSLY EXISTING RED/BLONDE HAIRED RACE!

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesalienhybrids.html

Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 13 2004, 08:15 PM
They also inhabited Easter Island.

QUOTE
Heyerdahl discovered, as is detailed in the book mentioned above, that the leading family on the Easter Island to this day are known as the "Long Ears" - and have a great family propensity for red hair, fair skin and thin noses, in stark contrast to the rest of the island's population, who are for greatest part dark, flat nosed and black haired.

The red-haired people on Easter Island today claim descent from a White people known as the "long ears" - so called because they wore large ear rings which elongated their earlobes, and who arrived on the island by boat at some stage in history, the exact date of which is unknown.

According to the oral tradition of the red-haired descendants on Easter Island today - who are now of mixed descent - these first red-haired White people on the island set up a kingdom under one Hotu Matua.

These "long eared" White settlers then set up buildings and as part of their construction works, carved and set up the famous stone statues - which, of course, all have long ears and long noses - again in vivid contrast to the flat nosed natives.

The stone statues have been dated at approximately 1600 years old: meaning that the settlement of the islands by these mysterious red-haired Whites must have occurred around the year 500 AD.

All the while, the tradition goes, the red-haired long ears used the dark skinned native inhabitants of the island, whom they called "short ears", as labor.


http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr6d.htm

Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 13 2004, 08:29 PM
Now this is getting really interesting. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
"Amongst the chiefly families of New Zealand, Easter Island and the Chatham islands there is a genetically different group who are : tall, pale skinned, bearded, long headed, with a semitic nose, narrow lips and occasionally reddish brown hair with a wavy texture. The Polynesian name for families carrying this racial type are called “Urukehu' and they are said to be descended from an earlier population of blond and fair skinned people.

The name Uru is the name of the tribe living on the shores of Lake Titicaca who make the reed rafts exactly the same design as that found on Easter Island. The Uru claim descent from the demi-god Viracocha, a tall white bearded man, whose sons are said to have founded the city of Tiahuanaco on the shores of Lake Titicaca. The Uru live on reed mats floating in the lake, their gardens also float alongside their residences. The Totora reed is the very same species growing in the crater lake on Easter Island, which was also used by the islanders to make reed rafts. The god that brought the Totora reed from Lake Titicaca to Easter Island is said to be “Ure.”

The ancient Mesopotamian city of Ur is also home to reed raft builders, who also make their homes on floating reed islands made of Papyrus, they have a mythical dragon, almost identical to the Manaia. The nearby Hittites had statues with white shell eyes inlaid with obsidian, and the Harrapan culture on the Indus River, home of birdmen and the Harrapan script which is similar to the Easter Island script. Even the name for the sun (Ra) is common to both Maori and many early Mediterranean cultures.

.
http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/page4.htm

Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 13 2004, 08:37 PM
Now this is what I was looking for. The giants came in the first age and then came the red haired people in the third age,

QUOTE
"....When Hernando Cortes was welcomed by the Aztec king Moctezuma as a returning god, he was presented with an immense golden disk on which were carved the symbols of the cyclical ages in which the Aztecs and their predecessors in Mexico believed. That precious artifact has been lost forever, having been quickly melted down by the Spaniards; but replicas thereof, in stone, have been found. The glyphs represented cycles of the "Suns" or ages of which the present is the fifth.

* The first age was the Age of the White Haired Giants;
* the second, the Golden Age.
*The third was the Age of the Red Haired People (who, according to the legends, were the first to arrive by ships in the Americas);
* and the fourth was the Age of the Black Haired People, with whom the supreme Mexican god, Quetzalcoatl, had arrived.

"All the way south in the pre-Columbian Peru, the Andean people also spoke of five "Suns" or ages.

*The first one was the Age of the Viracochas, white and bearded gods;
* the second was the Age of the Giants,
* followed by the Age of Primitive Man.
* The fourth was the Age of Heroes,
* and then came the fifth or contemporary age, the Age of Kings, of which the Inca kings were the last in line.


http://www.geocities.com/elchasqui_2/ZSitchinbook5b.html


Posted by: Mark Aug 13 2004, 08:59 PM
Hey DarmonVing, thanks for the additional info, some of those links I had never read before.

When I was on GLP, ATS and OSA forums I tried to tell everyone that the so-called aliens were among us and had blue eyes but since the majority of internet forum users had blue eyes, I was attacked and ridiculed.

I believe Mormons and Jews are hominid hybrid creations.

My theory derived from my experiences of 2002 which you can read in paranormal Section.

My belief is we have at least two root hybrid races... one with light blue eyes, and sensitive skin and the other with dark eyes, dark hair and dark skin due to being on the surface of the earth for the longer period.

When the blue eyes mixed in with the existing dark eyed race, the result was dark haired with blue eyes and I believe that's where green, brown and hazel eyes come from.... due to mixing.

This mostly shorter, smaller, darker skinned race is the slave labor race and has been exploited for a long time and continues to this day. They are used to mine for gold, silver, copper, coal, gemstones etc. and to labor in the fields.

Most likely the dark races were created specifically for labor since pale face who speaks with forked tongue could not tolerate the intense rays of the sun here on Earth.

One or more advanced race(s) seems to be here harvesting Earths resources and will one day leave Earth looking just like Mars and move on to the next earth like planet. (This I was told in communications of 2002)

Note: As I was writing this, Venus flashed into my head. I think this pale race comes from Venus.

I'm still trying to put all of the pieces together, but the evidence does suggest that the red and blond haired blue eyed race has been on earth for thousands of years and is quite advanced.

I also believe they can use more of their brain, telepathy and such and are extremely intelligent, speaking several languages (like Cleopatra).

I believe there was a great war on Earth about 12,000 years ago and caused these blue eyed races to regroup and breed more in order to conquer the world... again.

I also believe there's another species, an aquatic type of which I have some of their genes. I call them the "marshmallow people". They interbred with my grandmothers family. Out of the 8 children, they were all different.

You will also find this "marshmallow" population mixed in with those who claim to be jews, American blacks, Chinese, S Americans, Mexicans, New Zealanders and other areas.

The 600 pound woman who was recently fused to her couch is a prime example of this other species which has interbred with earths human/hybrid population.

Ariel Sharon is also one, so was Winston Churchill as well as Kim Jong il of North Korea.

China now has over 200 million overweight people.

They will eat every last living thing on this planet.

If not for cloned cattle, pigs and chickens, we'd already be eating dirt.

All of this advanced technology we see and use today is NOT new, it's just been recently introduced to us, gradually.

Let me make this clear, I believe there is also a good white race, as evidenced by those who share knowledge, wisdom, technology and information to educate us and enlighten us while opening our minds.

We are using their technology right now.

Ok, I rambled enough, hope I was coherent.




Posted by: Mark Aug 13 2004, 09:05 PM
It took me so long to write this out that you posted more gems.

Excellant stuff DarmonVing.

It's starting to fall into place.

Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 25 2004, 12:17 AM
I was talking to one of my friends yesterday about these red haired people and he hooked me up with some additional information on them that I had never heard before about a race called the Tuatha da Danann. I've heard about them before since I do have a slight interest in ancient cultures and knew that they had basically infested Ireland for a while many centuries but really didn't know how they had gotten there or what they looked like. He basically told me that they had literally landed in Ireland and that at least some of them had red hair. blink.gif At first I thought that he was making it up, but I googled the Tuatha da Danann and found this account and some additional information about them.

QUOTE
According to the Annals of the Four Masters, the Tuatha de Danann ruled Ireland from 1897 BC to 1700 BC. The story of their invasion of Ireland and subsequent war with the Fir Bolg (the previous inhabitants) is a fascinating chronicle of ancient Irish history.

When the Tuatha de Danann first arrived in Ireland they landed in Connaught. Legend says that they landed on a mountain in ships of the sky that blotted out the sun for three days. Thus, from the mists they appeared. Some say that the story is simply a fabrication, while others conclude that the Tuatha upon landing, burned their ships, determined to stay in the land. Likely, the Tuatha de Dannan were just sick of the voyage and decided to settle down.

But the Tuatha were not welcomed by the current residents of Ireland, the Fir Bolg. After a time of negotiation, the two sides joined battle. The Fir Bolg were defeated, but they had given such a good fight that the Tuatha let them keep Connaught and took the rest of Ireland.

The Tuatha were a highly civilized people, and tradition holds that the Fir Bolg held their conquerors in high esteem. The people of the Goddess Danu possessed remarkable domestic skills; so much so, that those they conquered deemed the Tuatha magicians and Gods.

The King of the Tuatha, Nuada, had lost an arm in the battle against the Fir Bolg. Tradition has it that because he was now blemished, he could no longer be King. In his place the champion of the Tuatha de Danann, Breas (part Formorian or Sea raider), now became King.

Breas ruled for seven years, but in this time, he thoroughly disenchanted his people by bending to Formorian demands. The people were not well fed, the crops were poor, and the final straw came when Breas insulted a poet. He was quickly ousted from command, and in his place returned Nuada, who now had a new arm made of silver.

Breas fled to the Hebrides, where he complained to his father, a Fomorian. A great host (army) was raised, so large that their ships filled the sea from Ireland to the Hebrides. Upon landing the Formorian host and Tuatha met in battle at northern Moytura, in Sligo. The Tuatha won the day and the power of the Formorians was broken forever in Ireland. Nuada died fighting the Formorians, and a hero of the battle, Lugh, became the new King of Ireland.

After Lugh, Dagda was king, and after Dagda followed his three grandsons. During the rule of the three grandsons, the Milesians came and in another great battle conquered the Tuatha de Danann. The Legends say that from then on, the Tuatha were permitted to stay in Ireland, but underground only. From then on they became the fairy folk of legends.

The Tuatha's skills in the arts and domestic life were even respected by their conquerors the Milesians. It is said that the Tuatha had four great treasures or talismans that showed their skills in arts, crafts and magic. The first treasure was the Stone of Fal, which would scream whenever a true king of Ireland would place his foot on it. The next talisman was the Magic Sword of Nuada, a weapon that only inflicted mortal blows when drawn. The third treasure was the Sling-shot of the Sun God Lugh, that never missed its target. The final treasure is the Cauldron of Dagda from which an inexhaustible supply of food came forth.

While much of the story of the Tuatha de Danann has been distorted over time, there is growing evidence that the story is based on fact. Remains from some of the battlefields have been found which cast a different light on the story as a whole. No longer are the Tuatha considered just Irish legend and fairies. Although three of the treasures are obvious stories proclaiming the glories of their Kings, the fourth item sounds very much like the legendary Stone of Scone that sits in Edinburgh today.


http://www.irishclans.com/articles/tuathadedannan.html

QUOTE
They landed on the First of May and beaten the Fir BoIg in a battle and conquered Connacht and relatively the rest of the island. The curious thing about the landing is that they were enveloped by a fog which hid them from the eyes of enemy and they penetrated the country unseen. After beating the enemy they built their capital at Tara. The Tuatha De Danann were a race with magical powers. They were handsome and learned and except art and science, they were the supreme masters of wizardry. In the mythological cycle their place is among the Irnmortals. They were later classified as demons or fallen angels by the scholars. Bravest of all peoples, their leaders were wizards first and warriors second, whose victories were gained by superior knowledge and magic rather than by warfare.


http://members.tripod.com/~warlight/ABANAZIR.html

QUOTE
They were a fair complexioned race, with fair hair; either golden-blond or reddish, many having freckled skin. The women wore long robes, or long loose-fitting garments of ankle length.  The clothing of the men consisted of a knee-length tunic, and a shawl or cloak, fastened at the shoulder with a brooch.  The cloak that barely covered the shoulders was made of a thick felt or of coarse-woven cloth dyed with various brilliant colours.  The men alone wore hats, or head-coverings, which were a soft felt.  In times of battle they dispensed with any head-covering, brushing their long abundant hair forward into a thick mass, and dyeing it a striking red with a soap made of animal fat and beech ashes: their faces would also be painted with this dye in a variety of patterns, which would cause them to look more like wild creatures of the woods than men.


http://home.iprimus.com.au/sidhe/tuatha.html

There was also a mention of DNA evidence extracted from a hair sample taken from an alien during an abduction experience in another article that I read.

QUOTE
In, The World's first DNA PCR investigation of Biological Evidence from an Alien Abduction, by Bill Chalker, Anomaly Physical Evidence Group (APEG)
we find that a  Sydney, Australia abduction experience from 1992, with biological evidence, became the subject of the world's first DNA PCR "alien abduction" related investigation, yielding intriguing results that have suggested fascinating new lines of investigation and speculation.. (For the complete story on this please go to
http://www.cufos.org/strange_evidence.pdf)

The original DNA work was done on the shaft of the hair  recovered from an ET  by the abductee. Anomalies were found in the root of the hair. Two types of DNA were found depending on where the mitochondrial DNA testing occurs, namely confirming  a RARE CHINESE TYPE  DNA in the hair shaft and indicating a rare possible BASQUE/GAELIC  type DNA in the root section.

The hair sample seems to show it contains 2 deleted genes for CCR5 protein and no intact gene for normal undeleted CCR5 - this CCR5 deletion factor has been implicated in aids resistance.

The nature of these genetic findings has lead to some interesting possible connections with ancient cultures, myths and archaeological finds such as the strange Taklamakan mummies in China (tall European like peoples with red hair.... some of whom had blonde hair)


http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedrace.html

Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 25 2004, 12:56 AM
This is getting more and more interesting. Here's some more information.

QUOTE
These people of the goddess Dana first used gold and sliver in an Age of Bronze. They first cleared the land, first drained the swamps. They built the great temples of stone like the one they sent to Britain—Stonehenge. [Always keep in mind that Stonehenge was first a Moon Calendar before it was converted into a Sun Calendar.] When conquered, they retired to their underground barrows or Sidhe where they still live today.


http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/faerieshistory.html

Here they are described as the SHINING ONES. rolleyes.gif Could the shining ones also be the Illuminati? - I think so.

QUOTE
The British Isles has the legend of supernatural beings, the Shining Ones, coming from the stars (Pleiades, the Great Bear, and Sirius) and bringing gifts of higher consciousness, spirituality, and secrets of civilization and agriculture (grain). These beings were also known as the Tuatha De Danann, "people of the Goddess Dana or Ana" and the Israelites (the original lost ten tribes). The Druids were the "Magi"-wisemen.

Also known as Sidhe or Fairies, these Shining Ones were described as tall, fair of form (thus, the term "fairies" evolved), beautiful, young-looking despite their great age, gifted in the arts, the mind, music, and healing. Their magical harps sang by themselves. They erected the stone circles, standing stones and crystal megaliths which aligned the earth’s meridians and grid (ley lines) to the movement of the heavens, creating an intergalactic computer for connecting to the Divine.  These were the peaceful prehistoric ancestors of the more aggressive Celts who arrived in 500 BC.



http://www.cabiz.net/zolaric/camelot.htm


Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 25 2004, 01:12 AM
This is getting really good now. They were apparently the ones who also educated the Sumerians...

QUOTE
The arrival of the Tuatha De Danaan was not only shrouded in mystery, but was so strange to the local people that they had to create a rational explanation as to how they appeared...

They were recorded as having landed in Northern Ireland from Scotland on a day which was later to be termed Beltaine, better known as May Day - 1st of May. It was stated that, after burning their ships, they surrounded themselves with a mist of draoideacht, which means 'magic' or 'sorcery' and marched inland for three days. By this means they hid themselves from the local inhabitants - the Firbolg - until they reached Sliabh-an-lerainn, the Mountain of Iron in Co. Leitrim, where they were first seen.

Effectively speaking, the locals tried to explain away the fact that these strange visitors appeared, literally, out of thin air ... and down off the mountain, quoted as having come 'out of nowhere' and 'out of the heavens'. Eachaid Ua Flainn, a poet who died in A.D.985 says "They had no vessels.... No one really knows whether it was over the heavens, or out of the heavens, or out of the earth that they came. Were they demons of the devil... were they men?"

The Tuatha appeared as tall, fair haired, 'shining-faced' sages with a highly organised small group of highly skilled leaders, artisans and craftmen. They were remembered for teaching the Irish people agricultural skills and animal husbandry.

It's interesting to note that according to the traditions of the Tuatha de Danaan, they had spent seven years in the north of Scotland before reaching Ireland, at places named Dobhar and Iardahar. Before Scotland, they had spent some years in Lochlonn, which has been equated with Scandinavia. In modern Gaelic, Lochlainn refers to the state of Denmark, and it seems a rather interesting coincidence that the Danes call their country Danmark; the land of the Dan people.

Apparently the Tuatha De Danaan were welcomed to Scandinavia where they settled in four cities where they taught to the young. Sages, resident in the cities were there to 'teach the sciences and the varied arts'. Prior to their teachings there, they apparently came from a place called Achaia.

It may be a tenuous link, but a region called Achaiyah, north of Mount Hermon, Syria is sited as being a possible site for Kharsag, the homeland of The Annage the so called 'Shining Ones' - great teacher gods of Sumerian tradition. These were the gods of the Sumerians who began the cradle of Western civilisation in the Mesopotanian Valley.

The Sumerians ruled the region from at least 4000 B.C. and there is still a certain degree of mystery as to the sudden rise of culture of the indigenous population - which they, themselves, attributed to the influence of their teacher gods.


http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/tributary/35/danaan.htm

Posted by: BJ1 (Unlogged) Aug 25 2004, 06:45 AM
This is a very interesting thread! There was a little research done on the Azazel thread at GLP, which touched on the migration of the tribe of Dan. We tracked them to the Phoenicians, then to the Celts. And much in between. How nice to see more of this right here! It's just too bad that I am missing those pages.

Thanks, both of you, PuPP and DarmonVing.

BJ

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 25 2004, 07:32 AM
Oh, happiness! I'm NOT missing all of the pages. Just had the info filed under Merovingians\Tribe of Dan. This is what I found on the Tuatha de Danaan:

The Greek historian Herodotus reveals that some of the ancient Greeks actually came from Egypt, and that the ancestor of the Dorian princes in southern Greece was a certain "Danae, the daughter of Acrisus" (Herodotus, VI, 1, iii).

The Irish word "tuath" means literally "a tribe" or "people." These people were the tribe of DAN of Biblical fame! They came from the Greek "Danaans," and were the same people as the tribe of Dan.

In Ireland, today, we find their customary evidence -- their place names -- in abundance. Such names as Dans-Lough, Dan-Sower, Dan-Monism, Dun-dalke, Dun-drum, Don-egal Bay, Don-egal City, Dun-glow and Lon-don-derry, as well as Din-gle, Dun-garven and Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS." Of course, the most famous Irish ballad of all time is the song, "Danny Boy." It should be plain that the country of Ireland is replete, filled with names which derive from the ancient patriarch of the Hebrews -- DAN, the son of Jacob! It should be plain that the ancient Danites settled in Ireland, and most of them dwell in that land, today.

The Irish word "tuath" means literally "a tribe" or "people." These people were the tribe of DAN of Biblical fame! They came from the Greek "Danaans," and were the same people as the tribe of Dan.

From Greece, then, the tribe of Dan -- the Tuatha de Danaan -- travelled by ship through the Mediterranean Sea, and thence up the coast of Europe to Ireland and Scandinavia.

"In process of time, theTuatha-de-Danaan were themselves dispossessed of their sway; a successive invasion from the coast of SPAIN having put and end to the Danaanian dynasty, and transferred the sceptre into the hands of that Milesian or SCOTIC race, which through so long a series of succeeding ages, supplied Ireland with her kings.

The Tuatha de Danaan were beyond doubt of the tribe of Dan, of Israelitish fame. The new tribe, the Milesian Scots, were no doubt of the royal tribe of Judah -- through his son Zarah.

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm

(There is also a connection between Samson of the OT and the tribe of Dan! That's quite a story in itself!)

BJ

Posted by: Seralia Aug 25 2004, 03:04 PM
QUOTE (DarmonVing @ Aug 25 2004, 12:56 AM)
Here they are described as the SHINING ONES. rolleyes.gif Could the shining ones also be the Illuminati? - I think so.


This is turning out to be a really informative thread and I think that I can add a few pieces of information for you to kick around. First of all, it does seem that the Tribe of Dan and the Tuatha de Danaan could be one and the same but as far as them being the Illuminati, I'm really not sure about that one. It seems that according to some of the accounts that they were the opposite of what we now know as the Illuminati.

I noticed this one quote from the information that DV posted.

QUOTE
The Tuatha De Danann were a race with magical powers. They were handsome and learned and except art and science, they were the supreme masters of wizardry. In the mythological cycle their place is among the Irnmortals. They were later classified as demons or fallen angels by the scholars.


Let's work with that for a moment. scratchinghead.gif

I know that this quote could be considered to be controversial but there's just something about it that makes sense considering the situation that we are in now.

QUOTE
Several obscure prophecies in the Bible point to the fact that the tribe of Dan will produce the Antichrist. In the context of these prophecies, Samson's riddle may be a prophecy that the descendants of the tribe of Dan will one day try to destroy the tribe of Judah in jealous revenge for God's judgment on their idolatry. From the carcass of the young lion [Judaism] the tribe of Dan [typified by the bees] will attempt to produce a golden age [symbolized by honey]. To suggest that the Antichrist will be a Jew is likely to incur accusations of "anti-Semitism" from those who would like to conceal this fact. However, we believe that the Biblical admonition to bless the descendants of Abraham includes exposing the identity of the man of sin who will lead many Jews to their destruction.

The Merovingians <priory.html>, who plan to rule the world from their future throne at Jerusalem, claim to come from the tribe of Judah through Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. However, the weight of evidence indicates that they descended from the tribe of Dan. Although Scripture states that Samson was “of the family of the Danites” [Judges 13:2], Yair Davidy of Brit-Am Israel claims that his lineage includes the Messianic tribe of Judah: “Samson the superman hero came from the Tribe of Dan but his mother was from Judah. Samson, in some respects, was considered a forerunner of the Messiah who will come from Judah but his mother, according to the Midrash will be of the Tribe of Dan.” [Brit-Am Israel newsletter, 2/9/99]

http://watch.pair.com/dan.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tribe of Dan seems to have been omitted for one or more reasons with one being that they themselves wanted to avoid being detected or someone wanted to erase any trace of their existense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE
Q: I have often asked why the Tribe of Dan is omitted from Revelation 7:5-8. I can find no explanation in Scripture. Do you have any explanation? How do you handle it when people conjecture the reason (e.g., the Tribe of Dan has died out; the Tribe of Dan has committed some unpardonable sin against God, etc.)?

A: Concerning why the Tribe of Dan is left out, every reason people give will always be nothing but guesswork. The simple answer is that the Bible does not say why Dan has been left out. No specific sin (like idolatry) could be leveled against Dan that would not be true of the other tribes as well. Furthermore, it is impossible to say that Dan has disappeared because in Ezekiel 47:13-48:35, where he deals with the restored Israel in the Messianic Kingdom, he points out that the tribes will be resettled in tribal divisions, and that includes the Tribe of Dan (48:1-2). While people try to find all kinds of possible theological reasons why the Tribe of Dan is left out, again, it is all guesswork. Actually, the reason might be quite simple: to maintain the symmetry of twelve. If you have to make a list of all the tribes, you would end up with thirteen names and not twelve since the Tribe of Joseph was split into two distinct tribes: Ephraim and Manassah. If you had to maintain the figure twelve, you would have to leave one name out. Revelation seven left out the Tribe of Dan. This is not unusual. In Deuteronomy 33, Moses pronounces the blessings of the Twelve Tribes and he left out the Tribe of Simeon. Because a lot more people study Revelation than they do the Book of Deuteronomy, I have not found anybody wrestling with why the Tribe of Simeon is left out and no guesses are given. The fact is that the Tribe of Simeon was probably left out only to maintain the symmetry of the figure twelve. Deuteronomy left out Simeon and Revelation left out Dan, and there is no need to make any more of it.

http://www.ariel.org/qadan.html
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In this very familiar seal, the eagle has a death grip on the arrows which are 13 in number. Could this mean that the 13th tribe has become enslaved? unsure.gif
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user posted image

QUOTE
Now look at the American Eagle on the Official Emblem of the United States of America and you will see that in its left-claws it holds ARROWS, 13 of them. Britannia, in the full picture, sits under an OLIVE tree and in the normal picture of her she holds an OLIVE-branch in her hand. The American Eagle has in its right-claws an OLIVE branch, with 13 olives and 13 leaves on it. Israel, in Scripture, is referred to (metaphorically) as God's Wife and therefore, accordingly, Britannia is a WOMAN not a man, as one would expect a soldier-emblem to be.

Joseph/Manasseh; which was one half-tribe of Joseph; was known as the 13th tribe of Israel. If we look at American Symbols we will see 13 over and over again. There are 13 stripes on the shield and on the national flag - "the Stars and Stripes". There were 13 founding states of America, and for those people who are tempted to say this is merely a coincidence; a man once said, wisely, that coincidence is only God (in Whom we trust) working anonymously.

On the American Presidential Seal above the Eagle's head there are 13 stars (Genesis 15:5; 22:17; 26:4 and 50 on the flag) and above them 13 spheres of cloud.

As the Danites have intermingled with Joseph/Manasseh (E PLURIBUS UNUM - "out of many: one") and the Danites were the judges in ancient Israel, who are no longer to be needed in the New Age because Christ is to be the only Judge in His Kingdom on Earth; soon; that is one of the reasons why there is no reference to the Israelite tribe of Dan in the Book of Revelation/Apocalypse in chapter 7, which lists the tribes that enter the New Jerusalem <noah.htm> - the City that comes down out of the sky in chapter 21:2, 10. - JAH.

http://www.anycities.com/jahtruth/amerca.htm

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And why did some of them apparently flee to America and why were the "Americans" so intent on exterminating the native population? I found this at Cyberspace Orbit BTW.
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MYSTERY OF THE MANDAN: THE WELCH NATIONS

The Definitive Journals of Lewis and Clark

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0803280106/cyberspaceorbit>
The great River is called by the Natives the Mult-no-mack [Multnomah] River; it is 500 Yards wide at its mouth; & continues that width, as high up, as where we ascended it. The Indian guide that was with us, told us that it heads Near the head Waters of the California, ... Our guide also mentioned that he had seen one of the Indians of the Clark-a-mus Nation, & that this Indian was white, & that he mentioned they had fire Arms among them. From the above information received from our guide,

I am of opinion, that if any Welch nation of Indians are in existence, it must be those Indians, & not the flatt head Nation, as before mentioned; this I believe, from their Colour, numbers of Town, & fire arms among them, which I flatter myself will be confirmed, whenever the River Mult-no-mack is fully explored. April 02, 1806 Joseph Whitehouse, Lewis and Clark Expedition

...our officers told them taht we would Speak to them tomorrow and tell th[em] who we were and what our business is and where we are going &C. these natives are well dressed, descent looking Indians. light complectioned. they are dressed in mo Sheep leather Deer & buffalow robes &C. they have the most curious language of any we have Seen before. they talk as though they lisped or have a bur on their tongue. we Suppose that they are the welch Indians if their is any Such from the language. they have leather lodtes to leive in some other Skins among them. they tell us that they or Some of them have Seen bearded men towards the ocean, but they cannot give us any accurate [account] of the ocean but we have 4 mountains to cross to go where they saw white men which was on a river as we suppose the Columbian River. April 02, 1806 Joseph Whitehouse, Lewis and Clark Expedition
...amongst the women particularly, there are many whose skins are almost white, with the most pleasing symmetry and proportion of features; with hazel, with grey, and with blue eyes, -- with mildness and sweetness of expression, and excessive modesty of demeanour, which rentier them exceedingly pleasing and beautiful.

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/indexback29.html

And finally, there are a few Native American prophesies concerning a thirteenth tribe emerging or being made up of members of twelve tribes. I did find one Cree prophecy that I would like to add here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warriors of the Rainbow

Native American Lore

There was an old lady, from the Cree tribe, named Eyes of Fire, who prophesied that one day, because of the white mans' or Yo-ne-gis' greed, there would come a time, when the fish would die in the streams, the birds would fall from the air, the waters would be blackened, and the trees would no longer be, mankind as we would know it, would all but cease to exist.

There would come a time when the "keepers of the legend, stories, culture rituals, and myths, and all the Ancient Tribal Customs" would be needed to restore us to health. They would be mankinds' key to survival, they were the "Warriors of the Rainbow".

There would come a day of awakening when all the peoples of all the tribes would form a New World of Justice, Peace, Freedom and recognition of the Great Spirit. The "Warriors of the Rainbow" would spread these messages and teach all peoples of the Earth or "Elohi". They would teach them how to live the "Way of the Great Spirit".

They would tell them of how the world today has turned away from the Great Spirit and that is why our Earth is "Sick". The "Warriors of the Rainbow" would show the peoples that this "Ancient Being" (the Great Spirit), is full of love and understanding, and teach them how to make the Earth or "Elohi" beautiful again.

These Warriors would give the people principles or rules to follow to make their path right with the world. These principles would be those of the Ancient Tribes. The Warriors of the Rainbow would teach the people of the ancient practices of Unity, Love and Understanding. They would teach of Harmony among people in all four corners of the Earth.

Like the Ancient Tribes, they would teach the people how to pray to the Great Spirit with love that flows like the beautiful mountain stream, and flows along the path to the ocean of life. Once again, they would be able to feel joy in solitude and in councils. They would be free of petty jealousies and love all mankind as their brothers, regardless of color, race or religion. They would feel happiness enter their hearts, and become as one with the entire human race. Their hearts would be pure and radiate warmth, understanding and respect for all mankind, Nature, and the Great Spirit.

They would once again fill their minds, hearts, souls, and deeds with the purest of thoughts. They would seek the beauty of the Master of Life -- the Great Spirit! They would find strength and beauty in prayer and the solitudes of life. Their children would once again be able to run free and enjoy the treasures of Nature and Mother Earth.

Free from the fears of toxins and destruction, wrought by the Yo-ne-gi and his practices of greed. The rivers would again run clear, the forests be abundant and beautiful, the animals and birds would be replenished. The powers of the plants and animals would again be respected and conservation of all that is beautiful would become a way of life.

The poor, sick and needy would be cared for by their brothers and sisters of the Earth. These practices would again become a part of their daily lives. The leaders of the people would be chosen in the old way -- not by their political party, or who could speak the loudest, boast the most, or by name calling or mud slinging, but by those whose actions spoke the loudest. Those who demonstrated their love, wisdom, and courage and those who showed that they could and did work for the good of all, would be chosen as the leaders or Chiefs.

They would be chosen by their "quality" and not the amount of money they had obtained. Like the thoughtful and devoted "Ancient Chiefs", they would understand the people with love, and see that their young were educated with the love and wisdom of their surroundings.

They would show them that miracles can be accomplished to heal this world of its ills, and restore it to health and beauty. The tasks of these "Warriors of the Rainbow" are many and great.

There will be terrifying mountains of ignorance to conquer and they shall find prejudice and hatred. They must be dedicated, unwavering in their strength, and strong of heart. They will find willing hearts and minds that will follow them on this road of returning "Mother Earth" to beauty and plenty -- once more.

The day will come, it is not far away. The day that we shall see how we owe our very existence to the people of all tribes that have maintained their culture and heritage. Those that have kept the rituals, stories, legends, and myths alive. It will be with this knowledge, the knowledge that they have preserved, that we shall once again return to "harmony" with Nature, Mother Earth, and mankind.

It will be with this knowledge that we shall find our "Key to our Survival".

http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/lore133.html

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 25 2004, 04:05 PM
Here is some more that we can add to the mix.

Several obscure prophecies in the Bible point to the fact that the tribe of Dan will produce the Antichrist. In the context of these prophecies, Samson´s riddle may be a prophecy that the descendants of the tribe of Dan will one day try to destroy the tribe of Judah in jealous revenge for God´s judgment on their idolatry. From the carcass of the young lion [Judaism] the tribe of Dan [typified by the bees] will attempt to produce a golden age [symbolized by honey]. To suggest that the Antichrist will be a Jew is likely to incur accusations of "anti-Semitism" from those who would like to conceal this fact. However, we believe that the Biblical admonition to bless the descendants of Abraham includes exposing the identity of the man of sin who will lead many Jews to their destruction.

The Merovingians, who plan to rule the world from their future throne at Jerusalem, claim to come from the tribe of Judah through Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. However, the weight of evidence indicates that they descended from the tribe of Dan. Although Scripture states that Samson was “of the family of the Danites” [Judges 13:2], Yair Davidy of Brit-Am Israel claims that his lineage includes the Messianic tribe of Judah: “Samson the superman hero came from the Tribe of Dan but his mother was from Judah. ...

It is through the agency of the British-Israel movement that the Gentiles are being prepared to submit to the Noahide Laws under a restored Sanhedrin. Yair Davidy posits, “The name DAN means “judge” in Hebrew. Many lawyers and judges in the USA are of Irish descent of a particular type as is much of the police force . . . Descendants of Dan today appear to be concentrated in Ireland, Britain, the USA, and especially Denmark.” [Ibid.] Merovingians can also be found leading pseudo-Christian organizations as many profiles in the Council for National Policy and Discernment Ministries reveal. These British-Israel agents actively promote the Hebrew Roots / Messianic Movement as the catalyst for Judaizing Christians.

The following paper is meant to serve as a study guide for understanding the enigmatic design of Satan to use the apostate tribe of Dan as an instrument and cover for a false messiah. The reader will be able to review the many Scriptures which concern the tribe of Dan -- the prophecies, the Danite people, their land, history, idolatry and symbols -- in conjunction with relevant information from other sources. A chapter of Guardians of the Grail by J.R. Church provides further insights on The Roots of the Merovingians.

NOTE: A paper follows the above, "The Lost Tibe of Dan", with its history. Worth reading through.

http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/dan.htm

The following agrees with Seralia's findings of the symbol of Dan:

The tribal emblem of the Danites was a snake (sic) with a serpent in its claws. Interestingly, Josephus records a letter written by the Lacedemonian Greeks to the Jews in which they express their kinship to the Jews. Their seal, that of the tribe of Dan, was affixed to the epistle -- an eagle with a dragon (serpent) in its claws!

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm


BJ


Posted by: BJ1 Aug 25 2004, 04:13 PM
Here is something very interesting concerning Samson:

The King of the PHILISTINES

And behold, the seed of SAMSON reigned over the PHILISTINES. And SAMSON was of the seed of DAN, [one] of the twelve sons of JACOB, and he was the son of handmaid of JACOB;... But he transgressed the commandment of God, and came and married a daughter of the uncircumcised PHILISTINES. And because of this God was wroth, and He delivered him into the hands of men of the uncircumcised PHILISTINES, and they blinded his eyes, and they made him act the buffoon in the house of their king. And he pulled the roof down upon them, and slew seven hundred thousand of them, and during his life he slew seven hundred thousand of them with iron, and stone, and [his] staff, and the jaw-bone of an ass. For their number was as that of the locusts, until he released ISRAEL from the service of the PHILISTINES.

...And then DALÎLÂ (DELILAH) conceived by SAMSON, and whilst she was with child SAMSON died with the PHILISTINES; and DELILAH brought forth a son and she called p. 138 his name "MENAHEM", which is, being interpreted, "Seed of the strong man".

...Now DELILAH was the sister of MAKSÂBÂ, the wife of the King of the PHILISTINES, and when SAMSON slew the King of the PHILISTINES in the house with his people and his household, and he died with him, DELILAH went to her sister MAKSÂBÂ, the Queen of the PHILISTINES. Now both women were beautiful, and they had no children, but both had conceived; MAKSÂBÂ had been with child six months by ḲWÔLÂSÔN, the King of the PHILISTINES, and DELILAH had been with child four months by SAMSON; and the husbands of both were dead.

... And the people seated the son of MAKSÂBÂ on the throne of his father, and made him king over the PHILISTINES.

(Later)...ṬEBRÊLÊS, the son of MAKSÂBÂ, the King of the PHILISTINES....(after a quarrel)...’AKÊMÊḤÊL, the son of Delilah, drew his sword and cut off his head....

And they took him (son of Delilah) and set him on the throne, and they prepared a feast, and rejoiced. And from that time onward the son of SAMSON reigned over them, and there was none who transgressed his commandment—now he committed this act [of murder] fif[teen] winters after he was born—and the kingdom of the PHILISTINES became his and his seed´s after him. Therefore, beloved, it is well known that the kingdom of the PHILISTINES belongeth to the seed of SHEM.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/kn080.htm

BJ

Posted by: BJ1 (Unlogged) Aug 25 2004, 06:45 PM
This is a sort of P.S. "Their seal, that of the tribe of Dan, was affixed to the epistle -- an eagle with a dragon (serpent) in its claws!"

This differs from the US eagle as Seralia described, but isn't it the symbol of Mexico? On their coins is an eagle with a serpent in its talons.

BJ

Posted by: JenThom Aug 25 2004, 08:20 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 (Unlogged) @ Aug 25 2004, 06:45 PM)
This is a sort of P.S.  "Their seal, that of the tribe of Dan, was affixed to the epistle -- an eagle with a dragon (serpent) in its claws!"

This differs from the US eagle as Seralia described, but isn't it the symbol of Mexico?  On their coins is an eagle with a serpent in its talons.

BJ

The national symbol of Mexico is the eagle with a snake in its talons which would mean that Tribe of Dan was down there.

user posted image

I think I read in one of DarmonVing's posts that either the Aztecs or Incas said that a red haired race had originally built their temples. unsure.gif Small world isn't it? blink.gif

This is supposedly why the Eagle and the snake are Mexico's National Symbol.

QUOTE
The Aztecs migrated into the Mesa Central from the north and fulfilled a tribal prophesy by establishing a city where an eagle with a snake in its beak rested on a cactus. This became the national symbol of Mexico and adorns the country's flag and official seal. The Aztecs founded the city of Tenochtitlan in the early 1300s, and it became the capital of their empire. The Tlaxcalans to the east, the Tarascans on the west, and the Chichimecs in the north were outside the Aztec domain and frequently warred with them. The nation's name derives from the Aztecs' war god, Mexitli.


http://ragz-international.com/mexico.htm

Here's a description of it:

QUOTE
The National Coat of Arms is featured by an Mexican eagle exposing its left profile, the upper part of the wings in a level higher than plume and slightly displayed in a battle attitude; with the sustenation plumage downwards touching to the tail whose feathers are arranged in natural fan. It puts its left grasp on a bloomed nopal that is born in a rock that emerges from a lake. It is grasping with the right grasp and the beack, in attitude of eat, a curved serpent, so that it harmonizes with the whole. Several "pencas" of the nopal grow to the sides. Two branches, one of encino to the front of the eagle and another one of laurel opposed, form a lower semicircle and they are united by a ribbon divided in three strips that, when the National Coat of Arms is represented in natural colors, correspond to those of the National flag.

When the National Shield reproduces in the reverse side of the National Flag, the Mexican Eagle will appear standing in its right grasp, holding with the left one and the beack the curved serpent.


http://www.mexican-embassy.org.yu/MexicanSignsCoatofArms.html

Posted by: JenThom Aug 25 2004, 08:56 PM
Here is part of the quote that DarmonVing posted:

QUOTE
The Uru claim descent from the demi-god Viracocha, a tall white bearded man, whose sons are said to have founded the city of Tiahuanaco on the shores of Lake Titicaca. The Uru live on reed mats floating in the lake, their gardens also float alongside their residences. The Totora reed is the very same species growing in the crater lake on Easter Island, which was also used by the islanders to make reed rafts. The god that brought the Totora reed from Lake Titicaca to Easter Island is said to be “Ure.”


The Uru were involved with the Incas but they might have had something to do with the Aztec monuments too.

The Uru are also considered to be one of Australia's lost megalithic cultures and this is one of their symbols that was found on one of the rocks there that they say is an altar.

http://www.cryptozoology-zone.com/images/18eaglealtar_fullsize.jpg

It's supposed to be an eagle.

http://www.cryptozoology-zone.com/Uru_eagle_altar.html

This is a good article that was written back in 1979..

Australia's Lost Civilisation

QUOTE
Around far-off Tiahuanaco high up in the Peruvian Andes live a strange people who call themselves the Uru. They are a fair-skinned race who say in their folklore that they came from across the western ocean from a great continent. There is also another great mystery surrounding archeological remains in both Peru and Yucatan. Here scientists have excavated in recent years human skeletons dating back many thousands of years, which may have been identified as Australoid. What were Australian Aborigines doing in far off South America? At a central western Queensland site, remains of walls and buildings have been unearthed below surface deposits. They are constructed of bricks of a triangular shape whose mortar seems more durable than the bricks themselves. Similar ruins exist in Western Australia and on the north coast of Papua New Guinea. Other mysterious ruins have lately come too light across a wide area of the Papua New Guinea hinterland. Whether or not these remains are evidence of Ancient Egyptian settlement of New Guinea remains uncertain, even though other undoubted remains of Egyptian presence have already come to light.


QUOTE
Further mystery surrounds the remains of the large-temple like structure built of large stone blocks which stands in the Woomera district of South Australia. If the remains of the submerged ruins of Torres Strait, Queensland, NSW, South Australia and Western Australia pose riddles, how else are we to explain the many stone and earthen pyramidal structures that have been found scattered throughout Queensland and New South Wales-as the work of world travelling Egyptians? These pyramids {to be fully investigated in a future Strange Phenomena}, sometimes hundreds of miles apart, are arranged in definite alignments. Whatever their true purpose, they are undoubted evidence of the presence hearabouts of a highly advanced race of people who built often enormous structures on a grand scale.

These Pyramids, extending over a vast range from Cape York are to be found elsewhere in western Queensland and down the coast through Townsville to northern NSW. They are next met with south of Sydney to Cooma and the Murray River; another may exist in Victoria. That these pyramids were built for astronomical reasons, as well as trappers and conveyors of some natural energy filed, can bee debated. At Gosford on the central coast north of Sydney, there stand large stones amid circular raised earthen mounds. These central stones have been hollowed out saucer fashion into which water was poured, by which the ancient astronomers were able to see a reflection of the heavenly movements at night. Atop a mountain near Gosford is a flat area now covered with trees, but which thousands of years ago would have been cleared.

For here stand sandstone blocks, the remains of some enormous edifice. In the same area upon a flat shoal of rock, are 50 circular symbols some joined by lines, others in formations, representing perhaps movements of certain stars. At another "astronomical observatory" further south near Wyong, atop a flat mountain summit, stands a large rock shoal upon which have ben carved circular markings believed to represent the phases of the moon. Situated at another site deep in the forest country west of Gosford, and standing against a cliffside, is a remarkable "door-like" structure. Constructed of two upright stone pillars. Its purpose beyond some lost ceremonial significance, remains a mystery. South of Sydney near Cambelltown and situated in thick bushland above the Georges River, strange stonework exists which has lain there since before the coming of the early European settlers. Nearby is a large hill whose summit is flattened by a base of stone blocks.

The full view of the heavens in every direction suggests this site to have been an ancient astronomical observatory. Nearby a number of highly polished stone adzes and axes have ben dug up over recent years. The artifacts are unlikely any of the cruder Aboriginal tools found in the district. Residents of the Dapto district north of Wollongong on the NSW south coast still talk about the "Dapto Stonehenge" that until several years ago stood near the town. Consisting of 12 huge boulders arranged in a circle, it was needlessly blown up and bulldozed by a construction team who turned the site into a park. It is believed that the structure had ben built for an ancient astronomical site. In our search for surviving traces of the mysterious lost civilisation of Uru which, it is postulated, occupied the Australian continent perhaps as far back as 25,000 years, let us now examine the sunken pavements of Newcastle NSW, and off the west coast of Tasmania.


http://www.internetezy.com.au/~mj129/strangephenomenonu.html

That's amazing that these advanced people were in Australia as far back as 25 thousand years building pyramids and other types of structures. I think I read something over at GLP about people thinking that the Pyramids in Egypt were the remains of a much older civilization. unsure.gif

More information here:

Pyramids In The Pacific - The Unwritten History Of Australia

http://www.internetezy.com.au/~mj129/Chapter2.html

Posted by: JenThom Aug 25 2004, 09:51 PM
Oh yeah. The Aztecs did mention a red headed race.

QUOTE
7,590 -- Beginning of the Age of the Third Sun, the Age of the Red Haired People (the first to arrive in America. according to the Aztecs, and presided over by the Fire Serpent), or the Age of Primitive Man (Inca). According to the chronicler Ixtilxochitl [who is reputed to have spent 12 years learning how to pronounce his name], these people were the survivors of the second age who had come by ship from the east to the New World, settling in the area he called Botonchan; they encountered there giants who also survived the second age, and became enslaved by them. The Third Sun lasted 4,081 years, and ended, possibly, due to Quakes and Storms.


http://www.halexandria.org/dward735.htm

Posted by: JenThom Aug 25 2004, 10:12 PM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Aug 25 2004, 03:04 PM)
And why did some of them apparently flee to America and why were the "Americans" so intent on exterminating the native population?

You might want to take a look at this Seralia. shock.gif

Dan In America - Part 2 Chapter 2

http://www.uhcg.org/Lost-10-Tribes/tracing-dan5.html

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 26 2004, 07:32 AM
From JenThom's post: "...how else are we to explain the many stone and earthen pyramidal structures that have been found scattered throughout Queensland and New South Wales-as the work of world travelling Egyptians?" And...

"...a remarkable "door-like" structure. Constructed of two upright stone pillars."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

In the book of Judges, we learn another trait of this tribe. In the song of Deborah and Barak, during the time of the Judges, the song asks, "Why did Dan remain in ships?" (Judges 5:17). Or, "Dan abode in ships." The tribe of Dan was a mighty SEA-FARING tribe, which loved to sail the seas.
...
The "Tower people," or Shardana, or tribe of Dan, conquered Corsica around 1400 B.C., the same time Israel entered the Promised Land under Joshua. Their occupation lasted until 800 B.C., or possibly as late as 500 B.C. (about the same time Assyria took Israel into captivity, 718-721 B.C., or near the time of the Babylonian captivity of Judah in 587 B.C.).
...
However, other Danites, who dwelt or abode in ships, and who associated themselves with the sea peoples of Tyre and Sidon, fled westward through the Mediterranean when northern Israel fell. Early Danites fled Egypt at the time of the Exodus, and migrated through SarDINia, and left their trail along the sea-coasts of the Mediterranean. Thus Dan, who was a "lion´s whelp" who would "leap from Bashan," leaped all the way to Ireland...
...
The true saga of the tribe of Dan, "a serpent by the way," who left a tantalizing, fascinating "trail" of waymarks along his path of journey, is one of the proofs of the modern location and identity of the so-called "Lost Ten Tribes of Israel." ...

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm
====================================

This seems to tie in with JenThom's post:

"Egyptians", "Pyramids", "Abode in ships", "Tower people", "Fled westward through the Mediterranean", left a trail..."Serpent by the way", symbol is the "Eagle with a serpent in its claws." Tribe of Dan.

"Red-haired people" would also describe the Merovingians, who are said to have had "magical powers", and are said to be descended from the tribe of Dan.



BJ


Posted by: Seralia Aug 27 2004, 11:46 AM
It all ties in perfectly. One of my friends who is an an avid researcher in ancient linguistics told me of a race that he and his colleagues called the Sea Kings who had traveled all over the place and that traces of their language turned up in America at one point. He had suspected that the ancient Minoans who had traveled to the Great Lakes region to mine for Iron Ore were the ancient Sea Kings but From JenThom's posts, the Sea Kings were a much older sea-faring race. My friend had also mentioned that the language that was spoken by the Sea Kings was the original root language that was spoken by several of the ancient races and that the closest language to the original root language was Scottish Gaelic. I've seen some of my friend's work with the language and it is quite impressive. I just wish that I had paid more attention to his translation methods. bop.gif

Whoever they were, they were most likely the ones that became known as the Sidhe or Shee.

I found some information on them in one of the University of Phoenix online dictionaries.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Shee

QUOTE
In Irish mythology, the sídhe (pronounced shee) are a supernatural race, quite distinct from humankind. There are a number of different types of sídhe: the sluagh sídhe, the fairy host or Wild Hunt, can fly through the air and shift shape at will, the sídhe who walk the earth at dusk and the guardian sídhe of the lakes of both Ireland and Scotland. They are the remnants of the Tuatha de Danaan.

According to The Book of Invasions or Lebor Gabala Érren, the Túatha Dé Danann, the “People of the Goddess Danawere defeated in battle by the mortal Sons of Mil. As part of the surrender terms the Túatha Dé Danann agreed to dwell underground in the síde (singular síd), the hills or mounds that dot the Irish landscape. Eventually both the mounds and the people became known as the síd, modern Irish sídhe.


QUOTE
Not much is known of the Tuatha de Danaan prior to their invasion of Ireland other than that they came from four northern cities, Falias, Glorias, Murias and Finias, where they acquired their occult skills and attributes. On arriving in Ireland, on or about May 1 , some accounts state that they burned their boats behind them to prevent themselves from being tempted to return; the Book of Invasions states that they wafted in through the air as a host of spirits. Other sources state that they came from the west (Atlantic Ocean) on clouds.


http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Tuatha%20de%20Danaan

It looks to me like one group has been chasing the other group around the world for centuries.

I need to play with this for a moment. scratchinghead.gif

QUOTE
"Egyptians", "Pyramids", "Abode in ships", "Tower people", "Fled westward through the Mediterranean", left a trail..."Serpent by the way", symbol is the "Eagle with a serpent in its claws." Tribe of Dan.


In one of JenThom's posts, the symbol of the Uru was the eagle... scratchinghead.gif The tribe of Dan's symbol was the Eagle clutching the snake... A very similar symbol shows up in Mexico... scratchinghead.gif From this I would have to say that the Eagle represents the Uru, which themselves, seemed to be one of the most advanced Megalithic races as of twenty five thousand years ago, and stirred things up a bit with the serpents... The one reason that I say that the tribe of Dan/Uru etc. are represented by the eagle is this.

user posted image

Of course my train of thought just got shaken up a bit when I came up with this little quote about the lost "civilisation "of Australia.

QUOTE
Scattered across Australia stand enigmatic relics of a bygone civilization: Megalithic stone alignments, walls and other structures; Pyramid-shaped mountains utilized as astronomical observatories; serpent altars where unknown rites were performed; and mystery rock inscriptions of a long vanished people.


http://www.cryptozoology-zone.com/Uru_main.html

So there were Eagle Altars and Serpent Altars which would indicate that there were possible two distinct groups. This ties in with ancient ruins found in New England which seem to indicate the same thing. In Massachusetts there was once this group of people that built unusual serpentine stone rows and made circles of rock that were said to repsent eggs and they would symbolically emerge from them. In other parts of New England, quite a few bird shaped carved boulders have been found. In the places where the carved bird stones were found, the stone rows were straight. I think my friend calls the one group the Sett group. The Minoans, I think were part of that group because one of their symbols was the snake. They had also monopolized the ancient sea trade and were considered to be one of the most warlike of the ancient sea cultures and were not much different than the Vikings prior to their downfall. I would also consider acient Minoan Crete to have been not much different than the United States is today so I would definitely have to say that the Sett group has risen from the ashes after the explosion of There decimated their homeland, like the Phoenix, that was supposed to have been the symbol of the United States and are picking up where they left off.

QUOTE
Secret occult history has recorded that Masons originally envisioned the American Eagle to be the Egyptian Phoenix Bird, that mythical occult creation that lives for up to 500 years and then deliberately causes its own death.  [The Secret Architecture of Our Nation's Capital:  The Masons and the Building of Washington, D.C. , by David Ovason, Forward by C. Fred Kleinknecht, 33rd Degree, Sovereign Grand Commander, The Supreme Council, 33rd (Mother Council of the World), Southern Jurisdiction, U.S.A., Washington, D.C, p. 219.].

As the Phoenix dies, its body suddenly erupts into flames and is totally consumed; however, out of the ashes of the old dead Phoenix Bird, another new Phoenix Bird arises.  The only reason these Masons changed the original Phoenix Bird to the American Eagle is that they were convinced that the American public would not stand for the obviously Satanic symbol that the Phoenix Bird represented.


http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/S2_Illustration_Writeup.html

From the same page concerning the Serpent.

QUOTE
The Satanist also believes that the "serpent ... [is] the symbol of wisdom of the true philosophers." [Ibid.]  Further, when a snake is depicted in a circle, devouring its own tail [called an Ouroboros], such symbolism denotes "Time, from which alone Wisdom springs". [Ibid., p. 24]  Thus, Warner has depicted the Ouroboros -- the snake devouring its tail -- surrounding the hexagram and the Reptilian All-seeing Eye.  Thus are we representing truthfully what the Satanist believes, i.e., the United States of America was originally established through the supreme "Wisdom" and power of Serpent spiritual forces.









Posted by: Seralia Aug 27 2004, 01:22 PM
I was right about the Minoans being associated with the Serpent.

MINOAN SNAKE GODDESS

user posted image

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/snakegoddess/
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~perlman/myth/snakeg.htm

It seems that there is a lot of controversy concerning the goddess. Modern Archaeology hiding the truth at its finest. Notice how they waited until about 2000 to start bashing the goddess. rolleyes.gif I did mention that the Minoans had ventured to the Great Lakes regions, but failed to mention that they left behind some interesting artifact. One of which was a snake that was made out of some kind of metal. I'll have to see if I can find the book that has the picture of the artifact in since I haven't been able to find it online yet.

Mysteries of the Snake Goddess by Kenneth Lapatin

QUOTE
In Mysteries of the Snake Goddess, subtitled Art, Desire and The Forging of History, scholar and assistant curator of Antiquities at the J. Paul Getty Museum Kenneth Lapatin, sets out to trace the origins and prove or disprove the authenticity of the one of the world’s most recognizable antiquities -- called alternatively the Boston Goddess or the Minoan Snake Goddess. Hailed as the apotheosis of Minoan art, the Boston Goddess has a place of honor at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts and has fascinated people since her arrival in Boston in 1914. Made of ivory and gold, she looks surprisingly modern with eyes set to the natural depth and stands bare breasted with a snake in each hand. The statuette did much to increase interest in the Minoan culture being unearthed on Crete and more specifically, at Knossos, by Sir Arthur Evans, a famous archaeologist.


http://www.bookslut.com/nonfiction/2004_04_001894.php

Snake Goddesses, Fake Goddesses

Volume 54 Number 1, January/February 2001
by Kenneth D.S. Lapatin

How forgers on Crete met the demand for Minoan antiquities

http://www.archaeology.org/0101/abstracts/goddess.html

The Ancient Snake Goddess of Crete
Minoan Snake Goddess

by Dr Alena Trckova-Flamee, Ph.D.

http://www.members.cox.net/corbid/2004_04_04__mytharchive.html

This is a good read concerning the mythology of the serpent.

THE DIVINE SERPENT IN MYTH and LEGEND

[AS OF JUNE 1999] Robert T. Mason, Ph.D., D.D.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm

This is another good one concerning lightning lore:

QUOTE
Significantly, the North-American Thunder Bird appears to have been more than a marginal divinity: in many mythologies he occupies a central position and plays the role of the Hero. In a tradition from the northwest coast, the Thunder Bird is described as a form of Raven or his son[23], Raven being the legendary culture Hero of the tribes.

In some traditions the lightning is not so much identified with the bird itself, as with its prey: a serpent held in its beak is a model for the lightning. A North American Indian superstition is to the effect that thunder is caused by an immense bird, whose outspread wings darken the heavens. It is named ‘Then-cloots’. The lightning is caused by a serpent-like fish of immense size, with head as sharp as a knife. When he puts out his tongue it makes the lightning. Its name is ‘Ha-hake-to-ak’, and the thunder-bird catches it for food[24]. The motif of the struggle between bird and serpent is attested in Scandinavia, Mesopotamia, India, Egypt and Meso-America, but the bird is not always associated with fire. Thus, the eagle who transferred king Etana of Kish to the sky had been battling with a serpent earlier[25]. The Icelandic Völuspa relates how the viper Nidhoggr is in daily combat with the eagle at the foot of the oak Yggdrasil[26]. In India it is the giant bird Garuda who struggles with a reptile[27].


http://www.mythopedia.info/ignis-e-coelo.htm

Posted by: Seralia Aug 27 2004, 01:33 PM
I did manage to find the book that's about the Minoans mining iron ore in the Great Lakes Region. It's definitely a good read and I've got an autographed first edition copy of it... somewhere. scratchinghead.gif

Ancient Mines of Kitchi-Gummi

A Case Study by Roger Jewell

QUOTE
Who helped the people of the Archaic Copper Culture mine and remove 20 million lbs. of copper from the Lake Superior area 4,500 years ago? JewellÕs well-illustrated book on the ancient mines of Lake Superior and Upper Michigan and the controversy that has raged from their discovery. Who were these miners? Was there ancient contact across the Atlantic that focused on this copper trade? Chapters on Minoan voyagers to Lake Superior, megalithic remains in Michigan and New England, mining evidence on Lake Superior, the voyages via Greenland and the ÒSet Lands,Ó copper artifacts, Mediterranean inscriptions at Lake Superior, more.


http://www.wexclub.com/NativeAmerican/pages/amkg.htm

A lot of archaeologists think that the Native inhabitants mined the ore. However, none of them have ever been able to find the missing ore anywhere in America in any archaeological dig.

Posted by: Seralia Aug 27 2004, 01:45 PM
I don't believe it! I found the image of the snake on line. huh.gif

user posted image

BTW, does this look like the eye of a serpent to you?

user posted image

This little tidbit ties in with the Dan in America article.

QUOTE
New DNA Evidence

Recent research in the Genome Project and other DNA studies have shown an X marker gene that is in the Algonquian speaking people but not in Asia. This new marker is however, found in the eastern Mediterranean, Spain and western Europe. This implies some contact from these areas thousands of years ago.


Ancient Mines of Kitchi-Gummi

http://www.jewellhistories.com/ancient_mines.htm

Posted by: Seralia Aug 27 2004, 02:11 PM
Then of course there's that serpent mound in Ohio that I forgot about. bop.gif

user posted image

http://www.placesohio.com/ohio-historic-sites/SerpentMound/

And then there's those mysterious iron ore furnaces that are also located in Ohio that I just found information about.

Ohio's Prehistoric Furnaces
http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/prehist.htm

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 27 2004, 10:34 PM
Here is some more on the serpent people.

I took the following from the Azazel thread that was posted by "Anonymer Feigling" at GLP:

"THE SERPENT PEOPLE

"The nagas are still worshiped as deities in most
villages of southern India."
"Hindu Polytheism" ~ Sri Alain Danielou

WHO WERE THE NAGAS ?

In the above quoted book, it is said of them:

"The nagas are linked with the antigods [asuras]. They are represented as half human, half serpent. They are possessed of great courage and are quick and violent. They are handsome and wear jewels, crowns, and large earrings....

"The nagas are also known as serpents (sarpa), creeping-creatures (pannaga), those creeping-on-their-chests (uraga), those creeping-on-their-shoulders (bhu-janga), goat-eaters (ajagara)....

[The following quote reminds me of a bit from Seralia's post:
"As part of the surrender terms the Túatha Dé Danann agreed to dwell underground in the síde (singular síd), the hills or mounds that dot the Irish landscape."]

"The nagas dwell in an underworld, the serpent-world (naga-loka), which is an immense domain crowded with palaces, houses, towers, and pleasure gardens. This serpent world is also called Patala or Niraya [Hell]. It´s main city is the City-of-Pleasures (Bhogovati) ruled by Vasuki."

These serpent-people are considered genii in the Hindu pantheon. That is (to use the Theosophical Society´s glossary once more) ..."

"...s Iblis in Islamic lore, the Watcher Azazel is said to be the father of all evil genii. Lilith, the first wife of Adam (that didn´t quite work out) is said to be the mother of the djinn - particularly the efreet.

And who does this website think are these "snake people"? PHOENICIANS!

http://www.semjaaza.com/ur/sof_nagas.html
___________________________________________

The following is a description of the djinns/jinns mentioned often enough that it should be added here. Had to Google for this one:

The highest of the jinns is Iblis , formerly called Azazel , the prince of darkness, or the Devil. The jinns were thought by some to be spirits that are lower than angels because they are made of fire and are not immortal. They can take on human and animal shapes to influence men to do good or evil. They are quick to punish those indebted to them who do not follow their many rules.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/j/jinn.html

According to the Encyclopædia Britannica, a djinn, a jinn, or a genie is, a supernatural spirit below the level of angels and devils in Arabic mythology.

There are also the Ghul which are shape shifters and dream invaders, The ifrit which are diabolic, evil spirits, and Sila was a spirit that takes on different forms.

They delight in punishing humans for any harm done to them, intentionally or unintentionally, and are said to be responsible for many diseases and all kinds of accidents; however, those human beings knowing the proper magical procedure can exploit the D’jinn to their advantage.

D’jinns are to this day held sacred by many Muslims, It is as natural to believe in the D’jinn as it is for Christians to believe in demons.

http://www.clydelewis.com/dis/djinn/djinn.htm
_________________________________________

BJ

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 27 2004, 10:46 PM
More on the Phoenix:

In Egyptian mythology, the Phoenix was a mystical bird offered to Ra, the sun god of Egypt. It had splendid golden-red plummage, making it look like it was wrapped in flame. Some versions had it shown in flames rather than feathers.

The bird lived in Arabia. The tale goes that it lived for a period of 500 years. At the end of its life´s cycle, it built a nest, and as it was dying, set the nest on fire, and was consumed in the flames. After its death, a new Phoenix was born to repeat the cycle.

Later stories have the Phoenix as living to the equivalent of a Platonic year, calculated by the alignment of the sun, moon, and the five planets known at that time to return to their original positions every 12.994 years.

The Phoenix is a constellation in the Southern Hemisphere of Earth, almost universally recognized as a bird.


BJ


Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 28 2004, 12:00 PM
I see that this thread has really taken off. I'm just sorry that I haven't been able to post sooner but I'm having a little problem with the phone company and now have to post from a friend's house until the problem is resolved.

I once was involved with archaeological research and have noticed that there were two distinct groups living in New England at one time with one of them apparently worshiping the snake and the other worshipping birds. I live near a fairly large undeveloped area where a number of unusual stones have been found and just quite recently, it was discovered that some of them did indeed resemble birds. As Seralia mentioned, the stone rows or walls were all fairly straight. Some of the stones had clear astronomical and solar allignments and though, some of them appeared to be simple, they were actually quite complex when people actually sat down and studied them. There was nothing that was found to indicate that the people that inhabited the area were hostile and I actually enjoyed going to some of these bird people sites. They were quite peaceful.

However, I was invited to tour one archaeological site in particular that was located somewhere in central Connecticut and there were a number of serpentine rows and stone monuments including stone chambers and I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there. I think that I even visited the chamber pictured in Seralia's post a few years ago and yes it does look like the eye of a serpent. I think that it's somewhere in New York State.

I don't know what it was about these places but I didn't feel comfortable about being within the vicinity of the structures or monuments that were built by these snake people. I remember being with a few other people and this site was about a mile walk through a swampy patch of woods to one of the serpent sites and none of us thought that we would make it out of the woods alive. The entire area just seemed to have an evil quality to it.

Seralia mentioned that these people were in Massachusetts but they were definitely in Connecticut and possibly even Rhode Island. There's a town in Connecticut that I really don't have the urge to visit called Hammonasset and there's either a place or a tribe in Rhode Island called Narragansett.

I can also agree that the Minoans were the serpent people, and after reading Seralia's material, it seems likely that the Tuatha de Danaan were chased right out of the sea by either the Minoans or the Phoenicians. blink.gif Phoenicians! huh.gif People of the Phoenix? blink.gif

It was clear that the Tuatha de Danaan were on the run if they really did burn their boats. From what I remember there were two distinct linguistic groups in Ireland according to Barry Fell and one of them ended up in New England and almost all traces of their existence in Ireland appeared to have been wiped out. The only thing that I really wonder about is whether or not the Tuatha de Danaan were a 50/50 alien/human hybrid or a 100% human or martian (other planet) species or something in between.

Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 28 2004, 12:47 PM
Oh this is interesting.

QUOTE
Nothing is known about the origin of the Phoenicians, but the existence of Ugaritic words in the chinese languages suggest that they were known at first in China. Indeed, the ancient Chinese knew of them as the Panchu (pronounced `panachu'), the ancient Indians knew of them as the Panachamas, the ancient Egyptians knew of them as the Panch (pronounced `panach') and the ancient Greeks knew of them as Pan. The ancient Romans used the root of the ancient word for a phoenix punic and we can see that root in the latin name for the pomegranate: malus punicus. The origin of the flamingo must be related to the Phoenicians as can be seen in the latin name of that bird.

The ancient Chinese world-creation story was that `the world was created by the Panchu in 18,000 years'. The description of the Panchu having `one hand in north-east china, ... etc' is how the ancient Chinese expressed the fact that the Panchu were to be found all round them.

The Panachamas were the first people known to have the wheel which was regarded as a sacred object by the ancient Indians.


http://www.sleitch.nildram.co.uk/phoen.html

QUOTE
For the Greeks, Phoenicians were the descendants of Phoenix, a son of Agenor and brother of Cadmus, Cilix , Thasus and Europa. Agenor traced his origins to Io, the Argive princess abducted by Zeus and changed by Hera into a heifer : Epaphus, Io's son by Zeus, who was born after she had arrived in the Nile region, had married Memphis, the daughter of the River-God Nile, from which he had had a daughter named Libya, who, from Poseidon, became the mother of twins, Belus, who became king of Egypt, and Agenor, who settled in Syria. After Agenor's daughter Europa had been loved and abducted by Zeus under the guise of a bull to become the mother of the Cretan king Minos, he asked his four sons to run the world and not come back until they had found her, which led them in all sorts of places where they founded cities and established settlements : Phoenix in Tyre and Sidon, where he gave his name to the Phoenicians, Cilix in Cilicia , Thasus in the island of Thasos, Cadmus in various places including the island of Thera, before settling in Boeotia where he founded Thebes.

These wanderings preserve a legendary version of the expeditions of Phoenicians throughout the Mediterranean and of their settlements in various places. Through these wanderings, Phoenicians introduced in other parts of the Mediterranean world various inventions of theirs, including the alphabet which they probably invented around 1100 B. C. and which was introduced in Greece toward the end of the IXth century B. C. or beginning of the VIIIth, replacing earlier syllabic systems known as Linear A and B to give birth to the Greek alphabet (the Phoenician alphabet is indeed the first known alphabet, that is, a writing system based on letters representing elementary sounds rather than ideograms, like the Egyptian hieroglyphs, or syllables, like the Cretan Linear A and B writing systems that preceeded it ; and the main innovation of the Greeks with respect to writing was to add letters for vowels to an alphabet which, like today's Hebrew or Arabic alphabets, included only consonants). To this, Herodotus bears witness in his Histories at V, 57-58, where he credits Cadmus and his Phoenician companions with introducing many new techniques in Greece, including the alphabet.


http://plato-dialogues.org/tools/loc/phoenici.htm

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 28 2004, 01:40 PM
More on the tribe of Dan. The following will enlarge on Seralia's post regarding the Minoans, with DarmonVing's findings:

Sumer , regardless of what historians would have you believe, ruled over Turkey as well as the Minoan culture. The alleged founder of the Minoan dynasty was King Minos, the hero of the later Greeks. But King Minos was in fact the same...Menes, Manj, Manis, etc., the emperor of the Sumerian Empire and the son of King Sargon. The Minoan culture was a mirror of the Sumerian and the period of Menes in Egypt.

A Tribe of Dan was the sector that seperated from Moses during the Exodus to re-establish Northern Territories. To map out where they were , where they had been and who they are..always watch for the root words...din, dan, den, don, dn, . and roots thereof . This was their marker for the other Israelites to follow. As you will see, blood and human sacrifice was practiced among this Israelite sector.

Odin is of the Kingship or Shepherd lineage, also known as Dragon Kings, which have made him and his families of high percent Anunnaki blood. (blue blood) 'Go forth and multiply' . ... Note: The kingship line only married within the family line to keep the Anunnaki blood pure..thus giving them god status. Priam Herman L. Hoeh traced Odin's linege back to Jacob, which confims he was of the kingship line.

..................

People of Trace , Native American Indian and Pics

...They painted their bodies blue and sacrificed human victims to their gods. (They may have painted the bodies blue to honor a lost race that very few people are familiar with . This is a blue skinned race that I can prove actually did exist. Please see bluepeople ..sutherland ) ... (BJ: Next post on the "blue people".)


(The following reflects both JenThom's and Seralia's posts concerning Mexico and the trail of the serpent.)

"... THE MEXICANS CELEBRATED WO(DAN) AS THE FOUNDER OF THEIR RACE, just as our own ancestors did. The WODAN or ODIN OF SCANDINAVIA can be proved to be the [same as]...the WODAN OF MEXICO..."

The book Fingerprints of the Gods mentions that "there were other gods, among the Maya..., whose identities seemed to merge closely with those of Quetzalcoatl. One was VOTAN, a great civilizer, who was described as pale-skinned, bearded and wearing a long robe. Scholars could offer no translation for his name but his principal symbol, like that of Quetzalcoatl, was a serpent." (By Graham Hanthingy. Crown Trade Paperbacks, N.Y. 1995. P. 103.)

When did this occur? TEN CENTURIES BEFORE THE TIME OF CHRIST, notes the historian Ordonez!

What is clear however is that the plumed serpent was a symbol of political power, and wherever he appeared carved in stone, signs of ritual human sacrifice would be found nearby.

(DarmonVing, you wrote: "I don't know what it was about these places but I didn't feel comfortable about being within the vicinity of the structures or monuments that were built by these snake people." This could be why!)


(Note: The Phoenix is sometimes drawn with firy red plumes. This site is of the persuasion that there is a connection between the Tribe of Dan and the Phoenicians in that they are found together in their journeys.)


http://www.burlingtonnews.net/dann2.html

BJ



Posted by: BJ1 Aug 28 2004, 01:59 PM
We posted about the green people in England, now here's a race of blue people.


THE BLUE PEOPLE OF KENTUCKY

Madison Cawein began hearing rumors about the blue people when he went to work at the University of Kentucky's Lexington medical clinic in 1960. "I'm a hematologist, so something like that perks up my ears," Cawein says, sipping on whiskey sours and letting his mind slip back to the summer he spent "tromping around the hills looking for blue people."

Cawein drew "lots of blood" from the Ritchies and hurried back to his lab. He tested first for abnormal hemoglobin, but the results were negative.

Stumped, the doctor turned to the medical literature for a clue. He found references to methemoglobinemia dating to the turn of the century, but it wasn't until he came across E. M. Scott's 1960 report in the Journal of Clinical Investigation (vol. 39, 1960) that the answer began to emerge.

Scott was a Public Health Service doctor at the Arctic Health Research Center in Anchorage who had discovered hereditary methemoglobinemia among Alaskan Eskimos and Indians. ...

Scott's Alaskans seemed to match Cawein's blue people. If the condition were inherited as a recessive trait, it would appear most often in an inbred line.

"The bluest Fugates I ever saw was Luna and her kin," says Carrie Lee Kilburn, a nurse who works at the rural medical center called Homeplace Clinic. "Luna was bluish all over. Her lips were as dark as a bruise. She was as blue a woman as I ever saw."

As coal mining and the railroads brought progress to Kentucky, the blue Fugates started moving out of their communities and marrying other people. The strain of inherited blue began to disappear as the recessive gene spread to families where it was unlikely to be paired with a similar gene.

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/blkysc82.html

==================================

BLUE SKINNED PEOPLE OF INDIA

Many thousands of years ago in the Raja Pura Valley in India lived the "Blue Race" of humanity. A race of blue skinned people, just like others today are brown, yellow, red, white or black. Only legends now remain about the blue race. However, both Shiva and Krishna were from the blue race.

http://www.merkaba.org/articles/shiva.php

The link below has pictures: HISTORY OF A BLUE SKINNED RACE - Krishna and Shiva - India.

BLUE MOOVIANS

Once, in addition to the four known races of mankind, there was a fifth race that dwelled on an unknown continent in the middle of the ocean between Asia and Europe (i.e., North America). This race, the most ancient of all, was called the Blue Moovians. They were very tall, about seven feet, and very thin, and had extremely large heads.

More Blue People

Several years ago, I came across a report done by the British on the Native American Indian. According to the report, the Cherokee talked of these blue skinned people that lived on the land before the Cherokee. It was reported that the Cherokee wiped them out.

Through an inteview I did with Blue Otter, Cherokee Indian himself and author of Prophecy Keepers, I found out that these blue skinned people were not wiped out but lived in the caves below the surface of the earth. He told me that the Cherokee accounts tell that when they came into this land, they found many gardens but not the people that would have tended to the gardens. Later they found that these people of the gardens lived underground and came out only at night to tend the gardens. The food was harvested and then taken back underground to the homes they had there. These people had blue skin , large eyes . The sun rays were too harsh for them on the surface so they chose to live underground away from the harsh rays of the sun and only come out at night using the light of the moon. The Cherokee called them 'the moon people'.

Although it was assumed that this race of blue skinned people were wiped out by the Cherokee, we discovered recently that this may not be true. Several men were exploring some deep caves in Arkansas. After going down so deep, someone or thing started throwing rocks at them, apparently attempting to discourage them from going any deeper into the cave. The men scared off whatever or whoever it was that were throwing the stones and continued to go down deeper . After about 1 mile down into the cave they came upon some plastic type tansparent tubes . At this point they could not go any further. But they could see a city on the other side and saw several people with blue skin.


http://www.burlingtonnews.net/bluepeople.html

-------------------------------------------------------

BJ

Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 28 2004, 02:33 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Aug 28 2004, 04:40 PM)
(DarmonVing, you wrote: "I don't know what it was about these places but I didn't feel comfortable about being within the vicinity of the structures or monuments that were built by these snake people." This could be why!)


I just remembered something. There is one place that I've heard about for a while now but really don't want to explore it myself and that's Mystery Hill in New Hampshire.


Mystery Hill: America's Stonehenge?

QUOTE
While we don't know the type of ceremonies that may have gone on at Stonehenge, we do know something about the apparent activity on the hill. One of the main features of the site is an enormous flat stone, like a great table, resting above the ground on four legs. Around the edge of the table runs a groove that leads to a spout. This great slab has been named the "Sacrificial Stone" (left) and certainly may have served such a function. The gutter probably allowed the blood of the sacrifice to drain off the top.

Underneath the Sacrificial Stone is a shaft eight feet long leading to an underground chamber. It seems reasonable that this allowed a priest concealed in the chamber to speak as the voice of an oracle. To a crowd gathered around the altar the sound would appear to float up from the Sacrificial Stone like the voice of some disembodied spirit.


http://www.unmuseum.org/mysthill.htm

user posted image

QUOTE
The most curious structure in America’s Stonehenge is its "Oracle Chamber" and the attached "Sacrificial Table." Coming down the granite slope of the bald hilltop, I looped around and walked down some stone steps into the dark and dank "Oracle Chamber." The temperature was notably cooler compared with the open air, and the rock walls dripped with water. Inside was just enough clearance to walk through. The chamber is T-shaped; about halfway into the chamber, another tunnel shoots off 90 degrees to the right. Where the two tunnels intersect is a small tunnel formation built through the wall called the "speaking tube." The other end of the tube comes out under the sacrificial table -- a large bell-shaped stone slab with a groove carved around its edges -- similar to a carving board I have in my kitchen used for catching the juice from cooked meat. I would learn the analogy was very close to the mark. Dennis Stone said, "The table is about 9 feet by approximately 6 feet in width, it's a bell shape, and it's about a foot thick. It weighs about 4 1/2 tons. It's attached to the Oracle chamber. If a person was on their back, by the left foot the rectangular drain goes off and it drains right by the left foot. And there's a cutout in the bedrock where a vase could sit. You could use your imagination."

Stone is cautious to make any definite claims, but given the size and shape of the rock, it’s not difficult to imagine human sacrifice happening on its surface, especially considering the great care in positioning the table above the speaking tube and Oracle Chamber. A ceremony of some importance obviously occurred at this spot.


http://www.ghostvillage.com/legends/2004/legends34_08012004.shtml

Though I have seen a number of altars, the one at mystery Hill is the only one that I've seen that was definitely constructed for sacrificial purposes. The bird people had altars but most of the evidence indicates that they were used for cremation funeral purposes and not for sacrifices. The Natives that had encountered the bird people had said that they were quite a peaceful race and that they had come to New England in long boats. They were described as people with red hair and eyes like the blue sky. One of their settlements was in the Hudson Valley in New York State and I went there quite a few times doing comparative research with a few archaeologists without feeling any type of negativity.


Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 28 2004, 02:41 PM
It's odd that you should mention the Blue people BJ. I used google and found this interesting account.


The Blue People of Troublesome Creek

Adapted from an article in Science 82, November 1982 by Cathy Trost

It all started over 6 generations ago after a French orphan named Martin Fugate claimed a land grant in 1820 and settled on the banks of eastern Kentucky's Troublesome Creek, with his red-headed American bride, the former Elizabeth Smith, whose skin was as pale as the mountain laurel that blooms every spring around the creek hollows. The Fugates had seven children, four were reported to be blue. The clan kept multiplying. Fugates married other Fugates. Sometimes they married first cousins. And they married the people who lived closest to them, the Combses, Smiths, Ritchies, and Stacys. All lived in isolation from the world, bunched in log cabins up and down the hollows, and so it was only natural that a boy married the girl next door, even if she had the same last name.
"When they settled this country back then, there was no roads. It was hard to get out, so they intermarried," says Dennis Stacy who counts Fugate blood in his own veins.

Martin and Elizabeth Fugate's blue children multiplied in this natural isolation tank. The marriage of one of their blue boys, Zachariah, to his mother's sister triggered the line of succession that would result in the birth, more than 100 years later of Benjy Stacy. When Benjy was born with purple skin, his relatives told the perplexed doctors about his great grandmother Luna Fugate. One relative described her as "blue all over" and another calls Luna "the bluest woman I ever saw". Luna's father, Levy Fugate, was one of Zachariah Fugate's sons. Levy married a Ritchie girl and bought 200 acres of rolling land along Ball Creek. The couple had 8 children, including Luna. A fellow by the name of John Stacy spotted Luna at Sunday services of the Old Regular Baptist Church before the turn of the century. Stacy courted her, married her, and moved from Troublesome Creek to make a living in timber on her daddy's land. John Stacy still lives on Lick Branch of Ball Creek. Stacy recalls that his father-in-law, Levy Fugate, was "part of the family that showed blue. All them old fellers way back then was blue. One of em - I remember seeing him when I was just a boy - Blue Anze, they called him. Most of them old people we by that name - the blue Fugates. It run in that generation who lived up and down Ball Creek".

"They looked like anybody else, cept they had the blue color," Stacy said.

"The bluest Fugates I ever saw was Luna and her kin," said Carrie Lee Kilburn, a nurse at the rural medical center called Homeplace Center. "Luna was bluish all over. Her lips were as dark as a bruise. She was as blue a woman as I ever saw."

Luna Stacy possessed the good health common to the blue people bearing at least 13 children before she died at 84. The clinic rarely saw her and never for anything serious.

Benjy Stacy was born in a modern hospital near Hazard, Kentucky, not far from Troublesome Creek. He inherited his father's lankiness and his mother's red hair but what he got from his great, great, great grandfather was dark blue skin! The doctors were astonished, not so the parents, but the boy was rushed off to a medical clinic in Lexington (University of Kentucky Medical School). Two days of tests showed no cause for Benjy's blue skin.

Benjy's grandmother Stacy asked the doctor's if they had heard of the blue Fugates of Troublesome Creek. Put on that track, they concluded that Benjy's condition was inherited. Benjy lost his blue tint within a few weeks and now he is about as normal a 7-year old boy as you might imagine. His lips and fingernails still turn a purplish blue when he gets cold or angry and that trait was exploited by the medical students back when Benjy was an infant.

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/fugate.html

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 28 2004, 03:38 PM
DarmonVing, we visited the same site to get the info re the "Blue People of Kentucky". This ought to round out both posts.

They're known simply as the "blue people" in the hills and hollows around Troublesome and Ball Creeks. Most lived to their 80s and 90s without serious illness associated with the skin discoloration. For some, though, there was a pain not seen in lab tests. That was the pain of being blue in a world that is mostly shades of white to black.

Just like the Alaskans, their blood had accumulated so much of the blue molecule that it over- whelmed the red of normal hcmoglobin that shows through as pink in the skin of most Caucasians.

Once he had the enzyme deficiency isolated, methylene blue sprang to Cawein's mind as the "perfectly obvious" antidote. Some of the blue people thought the doctor was slightly addled for suggesting that a blue dye could turn them pink. But Cawein knew from earlier studies that the body has an alternative method of converting methemoglobin back to normal. Activating it requires adding to the blood a substance that acts as an "electron donor." Many substances do this, but Cawein chose methylene blue because it had been used successfully and safely in other cases and because it acts quickly.

The doctor gave each blue family a supply of methylene blue tablets to take as a daily pill. The drug's effects are temporary, as methylene blue is normally excreted in the urine. One day, one of the older mountain men cornered the doctor. "I can see that old blue running out of my skin," he confided.

(This story had a happy ending! smile.gif )

BJ


Posted by: DarmonVing Aug 28 2004, 10:23 PM
I found some more information on the Phoenicians whom were also known as the Panch by the Egyptians and a very surprising connection with the ancient Hopi as well as a connection between the Hopi and ancient India. huh.gif

Is the Hopi Deity Kokopelli an Ancient Hindu God?

QUOTE
Compared with the rest of our galaxy, the world we inhabit is no larger than a pea. Therefore, if at sometime in the past, one tribe of humans decided to move from point A to point B, it seems to me that it would be easy to trace the migration of such a group on this microscopic orb. For example, suppose that I should decide to trace the migration of the Hopis from "wherever" they originated. First, I would learn about the ancient places they mentioned in their origin myth. The fact that they are Hopis and snake cultists would cause me to wonder whether or not they were any way related to the ancient snake-worshiping Khopis, Hopis, Opis, or L'Hopitai tribe in what are now Uzbekistan and Afghanistan, which were then part of Greater India.

The Hopi origin myth mentioned their nuclear home, called Kiva. This word appears similar to the name of the ancient city-state of Khiva in today's Uzbekistan. Khiva, Uzbekistan is one of the most ancient cities on earth, having been inhabited since about 8,000 B.C. It received its name from the type of round, sun-baked mud pit-houses of the inhabitants, with the doorway in the center of the roof. The inhabitants of ancient Khiva entered their homes by a ladder. Khiva's name is derived from two Sanskrit words: Ki (ant hill) plus Va (dwelling).

The Hopis say that their ancestors, the Khivites, were subject to a small kingdom named Muski. In the same area where Khiva, Uzbekistan is today, there was a small kingdom of non-Hindu tribals, called Musika or Muski. They bitterly opposed attempts by the Brahmins and Kshatriyas to force them to hand over their lands and become part of the caste system. However, the Afghan Hopis did ally themselves with the Brahmins long enough to force Alexander the Great to return to Greece.

The Hopi Kiva and Muski lay in a larger, "mythical" region known as Sivapuni or Sivapu. Is it a coincidence that the ancient region of Northern India where God Shiva was the only religion, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Kashmir, was called Sivapuri?

According to the Hopis, the priests and leaders of Muski began to persecute their forefathers, even ravishing their wives and daughters. They then asked their chief, called Yai-owa, to ask even a greater leader, Maasawa, to help them leave Sivapuni. By some strange coincidence, it just so happened in ancient Northern India, the compound word Ja-ovaha meant "chief; overseer; caretaker." Maha-Ishvara meant "Great Lord; King; God Shiva."

Maasawa agreed to aid and finance the departure of the Hopis. To lead them out of Muski, he contracted the services of what the Hopis call "white men," known as Bahanna. Then, their Wind God, Yaponche, blew them across a great lake to the Promised Land. In Sanskrit, Vahana means "mover; transporter; ship; vessel; boat." Panch was a Sanskrit name for Pani or Phoenician.

The Able Panch setting out to invade the earth, brought the whole world under their sway. (From the Mahabharata.) Indra hath raised the Sun on high in heaven. Indra leads us with single sway - the Panch leaders of the Earth. (Taken from the Rg Veda.)


QUOTE
Separating themselves into two groups, one went to Greece; the other to the Americas. Did the Greeks and the Hopis descend from the same stock? The Hopi emergence myth seems to hint that they did! Does the name Kokopelli really mean "The Khiva (ant hill) Prince," the chief who led the Hopis to the Americas? The Hopi origin myth is loaded with hidden meaning.


http://www.viewzone.com/kokopeli.html

What the Hopi Indians Need to Know About Themselves!

QUOTE
Knowledgeable Hindus never fail to be amazed when I discuss the Hopis and the tribes that "emerged" in America with them, for each of these tribes has a Hindu counterpart. The Navajos or Diné, as they prefer to call themselves, have the same names and traditions of a people who once lived in Western Tibet:

Nabhi-Ha (Poverty-Stricken Prophet or Holy Person) or Nabhi-Hya (Prophet or Holy Warriors). Din(i) means "People of Religion." Both terms fit them well, for their whole culture revolves around religion. Their famous sand paintings are used to cure physical and spiritual diseases, just as the Tibetan Buddhists sand paintings do. Both the Navajos and the Tibetans destroy these paintings after they are finished.

The Utes (Yutes) must be descendants of the Hindu Yuddhi who once scattered all over the ancient world. The word Supai derives from a dialectical form of god Shiva/Siva: Suva. The Paiutes? ancestors left their ancient home on the banks of the river Baihoot, or Jailum, the most westerly of the five great rivers of the Punjab (an Indian state and also a territory in Pakistan).

In Greece, they became the Baoetia.Back in India, the Heheyas were Hahayas, a leadership clan of the Rajputs, better known to us as Phoenicians. The Heheyas were probably related to the Bahannas (White men) who led them to New Mexico, for the Hindu Rajputs had white skin.Apache easily derives from the Sanskrit Apazu/Apashu, meaning "without cattle; penniless; poor; wretched."

The Apaches prefer to call themselves Inde (Indus People). The Hopis are Ophites or snake worshipers. The Opis religion was once one of the major religions of the ancient world, even in Egypt and Greece. It played an important part in the development of ancient Christianity.

Many English-speaking Americans practice Christian Ophiolatry, It originated in Afghanistan where it and the practitioners were called Khofis, Hopis, or L?Hopitai. Afghanistan (Oph-gani-stan), Land of Ophis (snake-worshipping) tribes), derives its name from them. The Afghan Hopis were a conservative people who, as much as possible, took much less from the land than what it had to give, just as the Hopi traditionalists still do in modern New Mexico.


http://channels.vandemataram.com/vindex.jsp?sno=287

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 29 2004, 10:02 AM
From DarmonVing's post:
"Panch was a Sanskrit name for Pani or Phoenician.

The Able Panch setting out to invade the earth, brought the whole world under their sway. (From the Mahabharata.) Indra hath raised the Sun on high in heaven. Indra leads us with single sway - the Panch leaders of the Earth. (Taken from the Rg Veda.)"


In the Azazel thread, the Tribe of Dan was traced to the Phoenicians, then through Samson, to the Freemasons, then to the Merovingians, who are prominent in today's politics. "The Able Panch (Phoenicians) setting out to invade the earth...".

It would seem that the same has never lost sight of its goal:

"The Merovingians, who plan to rule the world from their future throne at Jerusalem, claim to come from the tribe of Judah through Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. However, the weight of evidence indicates that they descended from the tribe of Dan.

Although Scripture states that Samson was “of the family of the Danites” [Judges 13:2], Yair Davidy of Brit-Am Israel claims that his lineage includes the Messianic tribe of Judah: “Samson the superman hero came from the Tribe of Dan but his mother was from Judah. ... "

http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/dan.htm


Note: The bloodline record of the Merovingians is kept at the Rennes le Chateau in France. Are these the snake people? It would appear that they are...and are in control of all of the earth's resources. They are the merchants of old.



BJ

Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 11:27 AM
QUOTE
The Merovingians, who plan to rule the world from their future throne at Jerusalem, claim to come from the tribe of Judah through Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. However, the weight of evidence indicates that they descended from the tribe of Dan


Not quite. The tribe of Dan was the 13th tribe and the Merovingians were descended from the tribe of Benjamin or the 12th tribe according to some of the information that I've been able to find about them.

QUOTE
There is the story of a Levite who was traveling through the territory of one of the twelve tribes of Israel, that of Benjamin.  In his travels, however, he was allegedly assaulted, and his concubine ravished, by worshipers of Belial -- a variant of the Sumerian mother goddess.  The Levite demanded vengeance for the atrocity, and at a council of the twelve tribes, the Benjamites were instructed to deliver the malefactors to justice.   

The Benjamites refused to do so, and undertook, by force of arms, to protect the "sons of Belial".  One might suspect the alleged assault was a put-up job to chastise the goddess worshipers.  But in either event, it turned out badly, as the result was a bitter and bloody war between the Benjamites and the remaining eleven tribes.  In the course of hostilities, a curse was pronounced on any man who gave his daughter to a Benjamite.  When the war was over, however, and the Benjamites virtually exterminated, the victorious Israelites repented of their malediction -- which, however, could not be retracted. 
          

DarmonVing posted information about the Phoenician's transporting the Hopi to America and they also transported the Benjamites somewhere. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
It should be remembered that the Tribe of Benjamin had been singled out for a very special and exalted blessing, when in Deuteronomy 33:12, Moses pronounced blessings on the patriarchs of each of the twelve tribes.  Of Benjamin, Moses said, "The beloved of the Lord shall dwell in safety by him; and the Lord shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders."  This symbolism later became a red cross between the shoulders.  This symbolism has carried down to modern times.

In the course of the war, many of the Benjamites left their country, fleeing in Phoenician ships.  It is believed that the Phoenicians also worshipped the mother goddess in the form of Astarte, and that the Benjamites revered the same deity.  The relevant question, however, is where did the Benjamites go?  In Greek myth, in the legend of the son of King Belus, one Danaus arrives in Greece with his daughters by ship.  His daughters are said to have introduced the worship of the mother goddess, which became the established religion of the Arcadians.  According to Robert Graves, the Danaus myth records the arrival in the Peloponnesus of "colonists from Palestine."  Graves also states that King Belus is in fact Baal, or Bel -- or perhaps Belial from the Old Testament.  It is also worthy of note that one of the clans of the Tribe of Benjamin was the clan of Bela.
 

http://www.halexandria.org/dward215.htm

Mary Maddalene was supposedly from the tribe of Benjamin and the founding Merovingian was one of her descendants.

QUOTE
Mary (Miriam) Magdalene is a name familiar to us because of her major, but contested, role in the foundation of Christianity. Less well-known is that suddenly, in the 13th century, it is claimed that Mary (Miriam) Magdalene is a descendant of the tribe of Benjamin. It is very difficult to find any substance for this claim, but it is possible that the claim is true. Virtually all the Jews at the time that Miriam Magdalene lived were descendants of either the tribe of Judah or the tribe of Benjamin. In Origins of Family Name Discovered in Middle-East we have already demonstrated that Mayoffs are descendants of the tribe of Benjamin, so presumably Miriam holds a place as a cousin on our family tree. Pregnant at the time of the crucifixion of her husband, Miriam left Israel after the crucifixion. The Greek Orthodox church argues that she emigrated to Ephesus. Located in modern day western Turkey. But is more widely believed that she fled further and settled in Gaul, which later became France.

Why is that important to the Mayoff legends? Because it is also claimed by some authorities that Mérovée, the founding Merovingian, is a descendant of Mary (Miriam) Magdalene! It is at this point, in the 5th century, where the blood lines joined. An unknown descendant of Merov married an unknown descendant of Mary (Miriam) Magdalene and her husband who was crucified. The couple had a son, Mérovée, ruler of France, with Paris as its capital.


http://www.mayoff.com/TheRealDaVinciCode.html

user posted image

This is one of the Merovingian artifacts that is from the Rennes-le-Château. If I'm not mistaken, there are serpents all over the artifact.


Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 12:32 PM
QUOTE
Who was Mary Magdalene according to the Scriptures?

St. Mary Magdalene is mentioned 12 times in the Gospels. She was healed of demon possession by Jesus (Luke 8:2), was present at the Crucifixion and the tomb and was sent by the Risen Jesus to the apostles to announce the Good News. Her feast day is celebrated July 22.

Who was Mary Magdalene according to Dan Brown?

Brown says Mary Magdalene was of royal blood, of the tribe of Benjamin, and Jesus' wife. According to Brown, after the crucifixion, Mary, pregnant with Jesus' child, moved to France and became the root of the Merovingian royal family.

He also says Jesus intended for Mary to be the head of his Church (celebrating the sacred feminine, remember) but that Peter wrested power from her, suppressed evidence of Jesus' real intentions and set into motion a 2,000-year conspiracy to demonize Mary Magdalene.


http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0035.html

QUOTE
There are hints, of course, that Notre Dame is not the mother of Jesus, but Mary of Bethany AKA Magdalene a princess of the tribe of Benjamin, which is itself notorious for an outbreak of goddess-idolatry in the period of the Judges. That Mary may also be the one also known to the Gypsies of the south of France as one of the three 'Maries-de-la-Mer,' whom they call 'Sarah the Egyptian', the sun-burnt one.


http://www.crystalinks.com/prieuredesion.html

QUOTE
The Merovingians were a Frankish dynasty that reigned from the fifth century to 751 A.D. They have become a great concern to conspiracy theorists because many of the mysteries connected with Rennes-le-Chateau, Father Sauniere, the Church of Mary Magdalene, and the Priory of Sion have been linked back to them.

Gerard de Sede, in a remarkable book called La Race febuleuse, claims that the Merovingians were descended from matings between extraterrestrials from Sirius and the Tribe of Benjamin in ancient Israel, and other notions about them are equally remarkable.

For instance, the semi-legendary founder of the dynasty, Merovech, allegedly sprang from a union of a woman with a sea-creature.

There are also claims that this family is linked back to another extraterrestrial race of Serpentine peoples.

I've also read in some places that the Merovingian's were thought to be direct descendants of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. And others disagree saying that they possessed the blood of demonic entities. Many of the Merovingians died under mysterious circumstances.

More or less, the Merovingians do exist historically, just with a great deal of mystique surrounding their family name.

The Merovingians were a Frankish dynasty, their name was used in The Matrix.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Merovingian

Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 12:56 PM
Enter the Knights Templar.


QUOTE
   Part of the mystery about Rennes-le-Chateau is centered on the offspring of the Magdalene. The last French king in the Merovingian line was Dagobert II. He and his son Sigebert were supposedly killed. However, the young Sigebert was smuggled into Rennes-le-Chateau by his mother, and there, the whole mystery of the Templars was created to prove the birth rites of the lineage of the Magdalene. Because of this wisdom, alchemy in France became a reality. The Merovingians knew the mysteries that Jesus taught, like changing water into wine.

Around 1090, nine priests went to Jerusalem and searched around the temple of Solomon for proof of this lineage, and for a better understanding of the development of alchemy. Out of this search came the birth of the Templars. What they discovered while in Jerusalem is the true wisdom of alchemy. They found the instruments know as the Holy Grail. They learned how to use these instruments to change mind over matter (alchemy). The true Templar's mission was to change gross man into a light being. Their mission was to guard the roads to Jerusalem. Jerusalem meaning, 'New Salem,' the birthplace of the order of Malchezidek. Malchezidek was Abraham's teacher. He is mentioned in the first chapters of the Bible. The Malchezidek order teaches humanity how to activate our higher chakras.

The Magdalene was an advanced healer and a highly respected member of the twelfth tribe of Israel, the Tribe of Benjamin. In France, I learned that the amygdala gland is probably named after the Magdalene. Mary Magdalene realized the importance of smell and the development of healing through the limbic system. It is through this system that one can activate the higher chakras. It is the Magdalene's gift that while using these frequencies of the brain, one can enter into a state of mind over matter.


http://www.templeofsakkara.com/magdalene.htm

When I read about Mary Magdalene having been possessed, this little Bushism suddenly came to mind. unsure.gif

The goals for this country are peace in the world. And the goals for this country are a compassionate American for every single citizen. That compassion is found in the hearts and souls of the American citizens." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2002

http://specials.about.com/zxfcp0.htm?u=http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms2002.htm

QUOTE
Who was Mary Magdalene? A clue is provided by her second name or title that translates as ‘watchtower’ or ‘tower of the flock’. On the mundane level and in common usage it referred to a high place used by shepherds to watch their flocks. On another level it is a code for the ‘shepherd kings’ of Watcher descent who ruled the sacred bloodline. It is no coincidence that Jesus was described as ‘the Good Shepherd’ as were the pagan saviour gods such as Adonis, Tammuz and Dionysus. From their watchtowers at the four corners of the universe the Watchers, as their name suggests, were the guardian angels who watched over creation. This also refers to the four watchtowers of the magickal circle, the four compass points, the Tower of Babel, ‘The Tower Struck By Lightning ‘ in the Tarot, the spinning castle of Arianrhod, the Castle of Roses beyond the grave, and the fairytale castles and towers in which the sleeping princess is imprisoned by faery godmothers and goblins and rescued by a prince or a knight in shining armour. The symbolism behind all these images warrants a separate article in itself. The Hebrew prophet Micah also used the phrase ‘watchtower of the flock’ to allude to the future restoration of Jerusalem as the holy city of ‘the daughter of Sion’.

There is speculation that Mary Magdalene came from the tribe of Benjamin and was a princess of the royal blood. In the 8th century CE the Archbishop of Mayence wrote a biography of Mary in which he claims her mother was related to the Hasmonean royal house of Israel. Although the Church, for its own evil ends denounced her as a prostitute, only a wealthy and high-ranking lady could have obtained supplies of spikenard to make an anointing unguent. It is absolutely logical that if Jesus, a prince of the royal house of David, was to marry he would seek out as a bride someone like himself who was of royal blood. A union between the House of Bethany and the House of David would have provided a double claim to the rulership of Israel. It has been suggested that Micah’s prophecy does not refer to Jerusalem at all. Instead it may allude to the enforced exile of a princess of the royal blood, ‘the daughter of Sion’, after the execution of her husband, the rightfully anointed king of Israel.

Writing in the 13th century CE, the Archbishop of Genoa, James de Voragine, claimed quite openly, and heretically, that Mary of Magdalene had been a wealthy woman with a royal background. Far from being the ‘fallen woman’ and social outcast falsely depicted by the Church, the archbishop claimed she had been the daughter of a Syrian noble and a woman called Euchania one of the titles given to the Greek goddess of love Aphrodite. In the Middle East this goddess was known as Astarte and it has been claimed that Solomon originally dedicated his temple in Jerusalem to her orgiastic worship. Some writers have linked the Church’s slander that Mary was a prostitute with the so-called ‘temple prostitutes’ who served Aphrodite and Astarte. They were probably the women described as sitting outside the gates of Solomon’s temple ‘weeping for Tammuz’. Mary, her sister Martha and brother Lazarus allegedly owned seven castles or fortified houses, the village of Bethany and other land within the precincts of Jerusalem itself. The Magdalene lived in her own house or tower on the shores of the Sea of Galilee which features so strongly in the gospels.


http://www.the-cauldron.fsnet.co.uk/BLACK_MAR1.htm

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 29 2004, 12:57 PM
"Not quite. The tribe of Dan was the 13th tribe and the Merovingians were descended from the tribe of Benjamin or the 12th tribe according to some of the information that I've been able to find about them."

Woops! According to the Bible, Dan was always considered one of the 12 tribes as found in the following chapters:

Jacob's blessing of his 12 sons included Ruben, his firstborn; Simeon and Levi, brothers; Juda; Zabulon; Issachar; DAN, a SERPENT in the way; Gad; Aser; Nephtali; Joseph; and Benjamin. Genesis 49.

The 12 tribes are numbered, including Ruben, Simeon, Gad, Juda, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph (Manasses and Ephraim), Benjamin, DAN, Aser, Nephtali, and Levi. Numbers 26.

Moses blesses the tribes including Ruben, Juda, Levi, Benjamin, Joseph (Manasses and Ephraim), Zabulon, Issachar, Gad, DAN, Nephtali, Aser. Deut. 33. Simeon is not mentioned here, but is named in getting his portion of the land in Joshua 19.


Some historians like to use words such as "claims, allegedly, thought to be, supposedly, presumably" and the like. This is not recorded history, but more of myth making. The truth comes out through much painstaking research. In this case, the Bible is our best source for the number and naming of the tribes.

BJ



Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 01:23 PM
Since I mentioned the Knights Templar, I might as well add this piece of information because one of my friends has a Templar sword that once belonged to a banker back in the 1930's. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
The Lord took in His hand His Banner, so the "Reds "created their banner in honor of Agag, the son of Amalek, whom God had cursed. Saul, Benjamite king allowed King Agag to live, contrary to God's orders. So God dethroned Saul. Samuel later cut Agag in pieces and Agag would become the martyr-symbol -of a double headed Silver Brotherhood movement against God. The Silversmith Craft was organized to produce silver statues of false gods. These were the later Silversmiths who drove the Apostle Paul out of Ephesis, stoned Stephen, (Acts: 6:9; 19:23 )and were responsible for the movement against Christ. By now they were known as the Synagogue of Freedmen of the "New Way", the first name of the "New World Order." Agag became their double- headed hero ("Ag Ag" ). And "Ag" became our scientific symbol for "silver" !

Since silver could not be easily produced on cloth, shields, flags or wooden armor, it was substituted with white. Thus, the banner of the Reds from "Edom" (Red),

became half white and half red.

Later, the movement would produce the financiers of the world, the vehicle for which were the Knights Templar, the first bankers. Bankers emerged such as Rothschilds which name means"Red Shield." Silver found expression in Rhea Silva whose"twin" sons, suckled by wolves, founded Rome. In Jeremiah: 1:11, we read, " In the land of Benjamin, a watching tree is God , thus, the Brotherhood met among the trees, called them " sylvan utopias",and trees were later farmed under the name silvaculture. The first craft brotherhood in France was named "Wolves," and met among the forest trees The Irish prayed ," I invoke the Silver One, undying and deathless " and believed trees had spirits.The Pan god of Greece, flautist wood nymph, son of Hermes was Sylvanus of Arcadia, considered Utopia. But more important than any of these , Jesus was betrayed with a kiss for -30 pieces of silver . The expression ,"Every cloud has a silver lining ," really means that the Masons are behind every cloud, and proud of it !


http://victorian.fortunecity.com/austen/667/add7.htm

Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 02:18 PM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Aug 27 2004, 01:22 PM)
I was right about the Minoans being associated with the Serpent. 


The Minoans were also associated with the butterfly.

QUOTE
The story of Theseus and the Minotaur is one of the most interesting in Greek Mythology. Minos was the son of Europa and the king of an empire centered in Crete. Poseidon had given a wonderfully beautiful bull to Minos with the expectation that Minos would sacrifice it to him. Rather than sacrifice the bull to Poseidon, Minos kept it for himself. To punish him Poseidon had made Pasiphae, the wife of Minos, fall madly in love with the bull. Pasiphae let herself become impregnated by the bull and the resulting offspring which she bore was a monster called the Minotaur. This monster was a human being from the waist down, but a bull from the waste up. Unlike ordinary bulls that ate grass, this one ate raw human flesh.

Minos did not kill the Minotaur when it was born. Rather he had Daedalus, a great engineer, construct a palace for him from which there was no escape. The palace contained hallways in a maze so a person entering it could go endlessly along its many halls and never get out. The palace, called the Labyrinth, was named after the ceremonial axes that the Minoans used in their religion. Each ceremonial ax, called a labris(labrus or labrys), was shaped like a butterfly on a stick. This double bit ax may have been used in a sacrifice, but it was also a common decoration.


QUOTE
Some references in the Odyssey may bear on this question. In the Odyssey there are at least two references to the use of wands. Circe uses a wand to transform men into pigs. It is interesting to note that Circe has the classic characteristics of a witch: she uses potions, and a wand. When Odysseus finally arives in Ithaca, Athena uses a wand to transform him into an old man. The wandrelates quite well to the labris. according to Marija Gimbutas, in her book "The Language of the Goddess" the labris is the image of a butterfly on a stick. The butterfly is a powerful symbol of transformation. This is consistent with the use of the wand in the Odyssey, because, in both cases the use is to transform. Athena is also associated with snakes, so there is a possible connection with the snake goddess of Crete, but more research could be done in this area. The aegis is a symbol of Athena that could also relate. The word comes from the greek word from goatskin, but it is a shield that provides protection. There is a question as to whether the protection provided is real or magic. Odysseus is given a veil imperishable by a daughter of Cadmus, Leucothea, which seems to provide this type of magical protection.


http://www.fjkluth.com/minos.html

Interestingly enough, the Hopi have two dances; The Snake Dance and the Butterfly Dance.

QUOTE
The Hopi Snake Dance is a special ceremony where the Native Americans prayed for rain. Another dance is the Masked Kachina Butterfly Dance. The Kachina dolls wore very elaborate beautiful costumes.The dance lasts from morning to night. Many people participated. Man dancers are dressed like women.This dance is a special prayer.


http://www.esd.k12.ca.us/Matsumoto/TM30/history/na/sw/sw.html

QUOTE
The Butterfly Dance is a request for rain, good health and long life all living things.  It recognizes the butterfly for its beauty and its contribution to the pollination of plants.  It is performed in late August and early September.  The main participants are Hopi youth and young adults.


http://www.wbamc.amedd.army.mil/NewsCenter/NewsCenter.asp?Article=nativeamericanobservance.htm



Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 02:21 PM
Here is something else that seems to tie the Hopi with the Minoans.

user posted image

QUOTE
The Hopi Indians of North America had a symbol for Mother Earth known today as the "Classical Seven-Path Labyrinth." It was this symbol of the Mother which identified the sacred in nature - that spiriling form found throughout nature. Labyrinths were woven into objects to personify man's connection to his source and were often placed at sacred places in nature to remind him of this union. When one walks the labyrinth it is in recreating this very ancient expression of thanks and remembrance of the divine in all things.


http://www.labyrinthina.com/path.htm

Then there's the Eagle Dance that the Hopi and a few other tribes perform.

QUOTE
The Eagle Dance is a one day ceremony in which the participants dance to the “Tree of Life” with the intent of manifesting Health, Prosperity and Abundance for Self, Life and Others.  A tree is chosen to represent the sacred “Tree of Life,” around which a huge medicine wheel is constructed.  The tree is a symbol of the Source, the eternal light from which all consciousness, life and movement emerge.  The medicine wheel is the zero surrounding the Source.  “The Zero is Holy. - - - From the Eternal, which is Time, and from all Energies, which are Space, all of everything was born from the Zero. - - - The womb of creation is the Sacred Zero.”


http://www.thewildrose.net/eagle_dance.html

The Eagle Dance is very similar to the Cretan Dances.

QUOTE
"Cretan dances were performed in open or closed circles. Cretans were usually dancing around a tree, an altar, or mystical objects in order to free themselves from the evil. Later on, they used to dance around a singer or a musician. Cretan sculptures illustrate dances in a circle around the lyre player, couple dances connected with cults, and the close swaying dance performed by large choruses of women in front of all people. Similar sculptures have been found in mainland Greece and Cyprus and are dated around 1400 - 1050 BC."


http://www.geocities.com/tkp42/greece/dance.html

QUOTE
For the Geranos as a snake-dance (later a rope dance), which invokes the Earth Goddess for protection, see Lawler (1946, pp. 119, 126-8; 1964a, p. 63; 1964b, pp. 84-5). The dance may represent a fight (Geranomakhia) between the Cranes and the Serpent (Lawler 1946, 125n40), which is reminiscent of the Myth of Etana (Dalley 190-200), with its battle between the Eagle and the Snake, or the Indian legend in which the Garuda Eagle attacks the Nâgas (Snake-people); see Butterworth, Tree at the Navel of the Earth, 156-8.

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/HL/notes.html

Posted by: Mark Aug 29 2004, 04:50 PM
Wow so much good info to absorb!!!

I've been away since Aug 26th, I was unable to access my domain for the past 3 days. I didn't wanna worry anyone or make a post in case the spammer was lurking. I recently had banned 3 IP address that were used to spam this forum.

Perhaps the payback was to block me from my own website?

I had contacted my host and my ISP and both said they were not blocking me.

But something was.

I could not access this website from my computer.

The same thing happened to me at GLP in Dec 2003 and then at the OSA forum in Feb 2004.

It really sucks though when it happens to your own forum.

I'll try and catch up and read the various posts, thanks to everyone for all of the knowledge.

handclap.gif


Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 05:20 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Aug 29 2004, 04:50 PM)
Wow so much good info to absorb!!!

I've been away since Aug 26th, I was unable to access my domain for the past 3 days. I didn't wanna worry anyone or make a post in case the spammer was lurking. I recently had banned 3 IP address that were used to spam this forum.

Perhaps the payback was to block me from my own website?

I had contacted my host and my ISP and both said they were not blocking me.

But something was.

I'm glad to see that you're not being blocked now PuPP. Seralia, DarmonVing, BJ and I have really been adding a lot of material here and we all seem to be turning up references to serpents that seems to tie in with some of the material that you have posted.

Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 05:28 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Aug 29 2004, 12:57 PM)
Woops! According to the Bible, Dan was always considered one of the 12 tribes as found in the following chapters:

Jacob's blessing of his 12 sons included Ruben, his firstborn; Simeon and Levi, brothers; Juda; Zabulon; Issachar; DAN, a SERPENT in the way; Gad; Aser; Nephtali; Joseph; and Benjamin. Genesis 49.

The 12 tribes are numbered, including Ruben, Simeon, Gad, Juda, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph (Manasses and Ephraim), Benjamin, DAN, Aser, Nephtali, and Levi. Numbers 26.

Moses blesses the tribes including Ruben, Juda, Levi, Benjamin, Joseph (Manasses and Ephraim), Zabulon, Issachar, Gad, DAN, Nephtali, Aser. Deut. 33. Simeon is not mentioned here, but is named in getting his portion of the land in Joshua 19.


Some historians like to use words such as "claims, allegedly, thought to be, supposedly, presumably" and the like. This is not recorded history, but more of myth making. The truth comes out through much painstaking research. In this case, the Bible is our best source for the number and naming of the tribes.

BJ

You're right BJ.

Sometimes it's just a little bit confusing for me to keep track of the tribes and how many or them are actually lost and which ones are still lurking around.

Posted by: JenThom Aug 29 2004, 05:53 PM
I found a few more mentions of the tribe of Benjamin that need to be esearched further but I thought I'd throw them in. There's actually a lot of information on he page but I'm just a little bit too worn out to sift through it and look for additional information at the moment. mellow.gif

QUOTE
After the Exodus,the Benjamites allied with the giants, enemies of God's people, and with other worshippers of false gods among them .Consequently, God assisted the Israelites in almost annihilating the tribe of Benjamin from the Promised Land.


QUOTE
The double-headed movement was the union of all those cursed or rejected by God and/or dispossessed- --in particular , Cain, Ham, Ishmael, Esau , Benjamin , and the Aaronic priests .The reason they double all they do is because under ancient law "the first born son shall inherit a double portion ."(Duet:21:17) Instead, Cain, first born, was exiled to the desert of Nod (Nomad ); Ham, son of Noah, was cursed ; Ishmael, first born of Abraham, was exiled to the desert; Esau, first born of Isaac, lost his inheritance to Jacob (a.k.a.Israel ); Benjamin became the first born of Rachel,when it was thought his brother Joseph was dead, but Joseph was alive in Egypt ;and Aaronic priests, the first born priesthood of Israel , were consigned to history by God for their apostasy by the end of Solomon's reign..All were bitter at God.

As the movement spread, all others "bitter at God" joined in. Prime of these were the Benjamites, exiled by the other tribes of Israel when they sided with evil . The Benjamites were almost annihilated with God's help. (Judg.20: 35-48) God previously dethroned their king, Saul, and further angered the Benjamites by choosing Saul's succession from the house of Judah (David), rather than the house of Benjamin. The Benjamites had also lost their city, Jerusalem to the tribe of Judah in David's reign. Jerusalem had been given to the Benjamites by Joshua. (Josh:18:28)

Thus, the Benjamites had a triple portion of "bitter " against God.

According to literature of the"Prieure de Sion", Benjamites are integral to their Order. As mentioned in the main document of this work, the Prieure de Sion leads the way in the New World Order. It is a highly occult /ominous movement with a long history dating back to the time of the Knights Templar. It promotes the restitution of the descendants of the Merovingian Kings, who they claim were divine. Its historical membership included numerous people of political clout and scientific / historic fame :

"ONE DAY THE DESCENDANTS OF BENJAMIN LEFT THEIR COUNTRY ; CERTAIN REMAINED . TWO THOUSAND YEARS LATER GODFROI (DE BOUILLON ) BECAME KING OF JERUSALEM AND FOUNDED THE ORDER OF SION " ( Holy Blood Holy Grail , Baigent , Leigh and Lincoln p 6 )

Benjamin's prophesy by Moses in the Jewish Bible (Deut: 33:12 ) reads as follows :
"The Beloved of the Lord shall dwell in safety by Him .He covereth him all day, and He dwelleth between his shoulders." (Jewish Masoretic text )

The Merovingians, promoted by the Prieure de Sion, claimed a red cross birth mark (between their shoulder blades ?) as proof of their divinity. Akhenaten's monastery in 1355 BC was red and built in the shape of a cross. It is therefore, reasonable to assume that the real divinity they laid claim to, was the very divinity Akhenaten claimed, "son of the sun god." And this would have been understood by their own. However, the first legend which developed in early France, according to the chronicler Fredegar, was that the Merovingian kings claimed to be offspring of a "quinotaur" sea monster, which fathered the namesake of the Merovingian dynasty, Merovech, aka "Merovee" (The Merovingian Kingdoms,450-751 AD, Ian Wood ,p 39 ). I suspect this unlikely fishtale was a take off on the existing religion of the day, Mithraism, or sun worship, as reformed by Zoroaster, whose wife's name happened to be "Harovee". ( Merovee / Harovee )


http://victorian.fortunecity.com/austen/667/add7.htm

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 29 2004, 08:14 PM
Nothing is as it seems with the Rennes Le Chateau mysteries.

"The Magdalene´s heirs married into the Visigoth families of the time and gave birth to the sacred Merovingian ruling family. The Visigoths of the area might have themselves been descended from the House of Benjamin, which had fled to the Arcadia region of Greece, and thence north into France, a thousand years earlier."


(Note the "might have been" words used in reference to the Visigoths as perhaps being decsendants of the House of Benjamin.)

"It was thought that the Merovingian lineage was extinguished; in any case it was excised from the history books.

But there is some evidence that Dagobert´s son, Siegebert IV, survived and that a Merovingian principality continued to be ruled in Septimania by Guillem de Gellone, a descendant -- and ancestor -- of Godfroi de Bouillon.

Dagobert married the daughter of the Visigothic Count of Razes, giving his descendants hereditary title to the lands surrounding Rennes-le-Ch‰teau.

If the Prieure documents are to be believed, the Merovingian lineage persists to this day, largely due to efforts to preserve it through intermarriage."

http://www.mysteriesunsealed.com/

http://www.mysteriesunsealed.com/rennes.html

http://www.davidicke.net/mysteries/history/rennes.html

From JenThom's post: "According to literature of the"Prieure de Sion", Benjamites are integral to their Order."

(If this is true, it would pretty much rule out the tribe of Dan, although there are documents that tie Dan to the serpent people who left a trail all over the world, and there are links to the Freemasons, which are linked to the Priory of Zion...Rennes le Chateau.)

"What the Priory seeks is a unification of a Europe without borders, to be called the United States of Europe."

The connections, through the centuries point to alliances with the Vatican, the Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland, and the Shugsborough Hall in Staffordshire England, and others.

The following is some more that supports JenThom's post concerning the Benjamites:

"...In legend, the Merovingians were said to be descended from the Trojans, and Homer reports that Troy was founded by a colony of Arcadians.

The "Prieure documents" claim that the Arcadians were descended from Benjamites driven out of Palestine by their fellow Israelites for idolatry."

So, who are these people? Are they Danites or Benjamites? Or both? In the Book of Revelations 7, Dan is not listed among the tribes, but Benjamin is. Did these two rebellious tribes merge? Hmmmmm.


Like you, JenThom, I'm too tired to pursue this tonight.

BJ



Posted by: Seralia Aug 31 2004, 02:20 PM
I think that I have found something about the Tribe of Dan. For some reason, it appears that they divided their forces into three groups.

QUOTE
In Biblical Times the Tribe of Dan had been divided into  three (or more) different sections. One section had been in the northern Galilee (Joshua 19; 42) and neighbored Gad. Later part of this section moved with other Israelites to Scythia. The Damnae in Serica (east of Scythia), were also called "Dingling" and were linked to the DANGALAI" whose name means "DAN-OF-GALILEE". They had been neighbors of the Goths (from Gad) of Gadrosia in Ancient Eastern Iran. The DAMNAE of Scythian Serica were named similarly to the DAMNONII of Scotland (who lived besides the northern River DON of Scotland) and the DAMNONES of DANNONIA which was the name given to Devon and Cornwall. DANNONIA in Britain was named after the Tribe of DAN. The Tribe of Dan was recalled in the Children of DON in Welsh legend and the Tribe of DANA who came to the British Isles (according to Irish tradition) from the Land of Israel via Greece and Scandinavia. The area Damnonia in southern Britain as well as being alternatively called Dannonia was also known as  "Defenia". The name "DEFENIA" is similar to that of DAPHNIA which was the former place of DAN in the Land of Northern Israel, and is also a name associated by the Talmud with the Lost Ten Tribes.

In Scotland the Damnonii (of Dan) adjoined the Gadeni probably of Gad.  Somewhat to the south (in Northern England) according to Ptolemy was the city of Danum which area was later to be occupied by Danes from Denmark. In this case we see the possibility of a group of Celtic culture descended from Dan who gave their name to the city of Danum being followed by Scandinavians who were also descended from Dan and settling in the same area. We have come across similar phenomenon several times in this study.


http://britam.org/dan.html

Then it appears that the Tribe of Benjamin joined forces with the Tribe of Judah.

QUOTE
The Book of Judges chapters 19 to 21 describes an episode in which all of the rest of Israel attacks and defeats the Benjamites in the battle at Gibeah, in retaliation following a disgraceful incident. To complete the defeat, all the civilians, including women and children, in the Benjamite towns and villages are then killed, and the other tribes vow that they will never allow their women to marry Benjamites ever again. However, so as to not exterminate a tribe of Israel, they then provide four hundred virgins, spoil from another town they have massacred, as wives to the Benjamites, and also allow them to raid a festival and carry off some of the women.

Later, when the Kingdom of Israel was divided, the tribe of Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah to form the Kingdom of Judah, while the other tribes formed the reduced kingdom of Israel which was subsequently conquered and the people exiled. Benjamin was very much the minor partner, as the ruling House of David came from the far more numerous and powerful tribe of Judah. Thus it was the tribe of Judah who in time became identified with the entire people of the southerly Israelite kingdom, and gave their name to the Jews.


http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/tribe%20of%20Benjamin

I'm not really sure but I think that the tribe of Dan was also known as the tribe of judgement and their original symbol or standard was the Eagle.

The Book of Kells

QUOTE
There is a lot of nonsense talked about the four symbols that are used in the Book of Kells:- LION; MAN; CALF and EAGLE. Most historians say that they are supposed to represent the four Apostles. They do NOT represent the Apostles but represent the Twelve Tribes of Israel, to whom the Apostles were sent, by Christ.

The four symbols are the four Brigade-Emblems of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who camped around "The Tabernacle" in the wilderness during their "forty year punishment and wandering", in the wilderness under Moses.

The encampment was square, with three tribes camped on each of the four sides. The centre tribe of the three, on each side was the Brigade-Leader, so their standard was the dominant one, on each of the four sides. Those four tribes were Judah; Reuben; Joseph/Ephraim and Dan.

Judah's standard is a LION; Reuben's standard is a MAN; Joseph / Ephraim's standard is a wild-ox CALF (which today has become a Unicorn) and Dan's standard is an EAGLE.


http://www.anycities.com/jahtruth/bkofke.htm

If it is true that the tribe of Dan was divided into three groups then it is possible that at least one of these groups also joined up with the tribe of Benjamin and at least one of the groups had to flee because of the power that the tribe of Benjamin had suddenly acquired once they joined the Tribe of Judah.

Posted by: Guest Aug 31 2004, 09:41 PM
Everybody gets this one wrong!! Ham, son of Noah was NOT, I repeat NOT the one that was cursed. It was Ham's first born that was cursed.

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 1 2004, 07:01 AM
Hello, Guest! I took a trip back in time to Genesis 9: 22-27. Noah had too much wine, was made drunk, and was sleeping it off:

"Which when Ham the father of Canaan had seen, to wit, that his father's nakedness was uncovered, he told it to his two brothers who were without.

But when Shem and Japheth put a cloak upon their shoulders, and going backward covered the nakedness of their father: and their faces were turned away, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

And Noah awakening from the wine, when he had learned what his YOUNGEST son had done to him,

He said, "Cursed be Canaan (son of Ham): a servant of servants shall he be unto his bretheren.

And he said, "Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; be Canaan his servant.

May God enlarge Japheth, and may he dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan be his servant."

It would appear that Ham was the father of the Canaanites, who bore the curse.

In Chapter 10 we read that one of the sons of Ham was Chus, who begot Nimrod, who built the tower of Babylon. They would not serve! It is my thought that these later spawned the Phillistines (Giants), a very bad group of folks who practiced cannabalism, idolatry, bestiality, and human sacrifice. Could be wrong on that, but history "seems" to bear that out.


BJ

Posted by: Guest Sep 1 2004, 06:28 PM
Hello BJ,

Didn't mean to yell, I just get frustrated when people say Ham and not Cannan. Many people try to attribute the "curse of Ham" as the reason/justification for slavery. Although what you quoted didn't mention Ham in a blessing, he wasn't mentioned in the curse either. I think sometimes people want to draw a conclusion of what they think the Bible is saying when sometimes things aren't so clear. I mean it's obvious that some of the books were left out for whatever reason so in some places there isn't a complete picture, just snippits. There are still many mysteries that haven't been revealed to us yet.



Posted by: BJ1 (Unlogged) Sep 1 2004, 09:27 PM
Hello again, Guest. I'm glad you got back on this thread. I agree with your comment:

"I mean it's obvious that some of the books were left out for whatever reason..."

The same has been done down through the centuries, and is being done today. The purpose of this, I believe, is an attempt to keep us from knowing what took place in generations past.

BJ

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 4 2004, 06:22 AM
I went Googling again in an effort to find out more about the Nagas. It is interesting that all of this ties in with the Freemasons of today, as these creatures are still in existance, but have kept themselves hidden underground.

The Nagas

Naga or Nagash represents the musical serpent of Babylon. The word lagash is very similar and implicates speaking in tongues. It all began in the garden of Eden which is the story of the attack upon God's people by the worship of the harlot Babylon. "She" is still in business and will be until the end (See Revelation 18)
"Udyana, in modern Pakistan, was famous for its water dragons. This is a story of one of those dragons. The Naga are thought to be semi-divine snakes with human faces and serpents tails. It is in the Patala, a watery region under the earth that they reside.

"Snakes or nagas are usually represented as gigantic cobras with several hoods, or with a human head and serpent body. They are considered the kings of all other snakes, capable of assuming beguiling human forms. They live in Patala loka and their capital city, Bhogvati, is the richest and the most beautiful city in the whole universe."

The Britannica Online notes that: Sanskrit NAGA ("serpent"), in Hindu and Buddhist mythology, a member of a class of semidivine beings, half human and half serpentine.

They are considered to be a strong, handsome race who can assume either human or wholly serpentine form.

They are regarded as being potentially dangerous but in some ways are superior to humans. They live in an underground kingdom called Naga-loka, or Patala-loka, which is filled with resplendent palaces, beautifully ornamented with precious gems.

The female nagas (or nagis), according to tradition, are serpent princesses of striking beauty, and the dynasties of Manipur in northeastern India, the Pallavas in southern India, and the ruling family of Funan (ancient Indochina) traced their origin to the union of a human being and a nagi.

In art, nagas are represented in a fully zoomorphic form, as hooded cobras but with from one to seven or more heads; as human beings with a many-hooded snake canopy over their heads; or as half human, with the lower part of their body below the navel coiled like a snake and a canopy of hoods over their heads. Often they are shown in postures of adoration as one of the major gods or heroes is shown accomplishing some miraculous feat before their eyes.


The naga, a superhuman spirit, was taken from Buddhist and Hindu texts and merged with native counterparts, with the result that different images of the naga appeared in various regions.

"The Nagas of Indian mythology were a race of serpent demons. Their name means 'those who do not walk, who creep.' Most often they manifested themselves as beasts with bodies that were half-man, half-serpent, although sometimes they assumed the shape of a dragon, or simply appeared in the guise of a cobra.

"They haunted lakes and rivers, but their true domain was a vast, idyllic region below the sea. In Patala, their underwater habitat, they hoarded great amounts of jewels and precious metals.

Here the demons dwelt with their seductive mates, the Naginis who, ike mermaids, seduced mortals into the briny depths.

"Nagarjuna of India, for example, is shown with an aura, or halo, of seven serpents which is an indication of a very high degree of Initiation.

"The symbolism of the seven serpents, usually cobras, are also on Masonic aprons of certain systems in the Buddhistic ruins of Cambodia (Ankhor) and Ceylon.

WORLD-WIDE!

"The great temple-builders of the famous Ankhor Wat were considered to be the semi-divine Khmers. The avenue leading to the Temple is lined with the seven-headed Naga. And even in Mexico, we find the "Naga" which becomes "Nagal." In China, the Naga is given the form of the Dragon and has a direct association with the Emperor and is known as the "Son of Heaven"...while in Egypt the same association is termed "King-Initiate". The Chinese are even said to have originated with the Serpent demi-gods and even to speak their language, Naga-Krita.

(Good pics of serpents\Nagas on this site.)

http://www.piney.com/naga.html

Posted by: Seralia Sep 7 2004, 04:52 PM
Thanx for the information on the Nagas BJ.

I just heard something on the news this morning that I just couldn't believe and ties in with JenThom's bit of research concerning the ancient stone builders in Australia.

Did first Americans come from ... Australia?

Researcher makes claim on basis of skulls and more

Updated: 9:59 p.m. ET Sept. 6, 2004

EXETER, England - Anthropologists stepped into a hornets’ nest on Monday, revealing research that suggests the original inhabitants of America may in fact have come from what is now known as Australia.

The claim will be extremely unwelcome to today’s native Americans, who came overland from Siberia and say they were there first.

But Silvia Gonzalez from John Moores University in Liverpool said that skeletal evidence pointed strongly to this unpalatable truth and hinted that recovered DNA would corroborate it.

“This is very contentious,” Gonzalez, a Mexican, said with a smile at the annual meeting of the British association for the Advancement of Science. “They (native Americans) cannot claim to have been the first people there.”

Evidence from skulls and DNA

She said there was very strong evidence that the first migration came from Australia via Japan and Polynesia and down the Pacific Coast of America.

Skulls of a people with distinctively long and narrow heads discovered in Mexico and California predated by several thousand years the more rounded features of the skulls of native Americans.

One particularly well preserved skull of a long-faced woman had been carbon-dated to 12,700 years ago, whereas the oldest accurately dated native American skull was only about 9,000 years old.

“We have extracted her DNA. It is going to be a bomb,” she said, declining to give details but adding that the tests carried out so far were being replicated to make sure they were accurate.

She said there were tales from Spanish missionaries of an isolated coastal community of long-face people in Baja California of a completely different race and rituals from other communities in America at the time.

These last survivors were wiped out by diseases imported by the Spanish conquerors, Gonzalez said.

The research is one of 11 different projects in America, Africa, Asia and the Middle East being funded over a four-year period by Britain’s Natural Environment Research Council.

The projects — focusing on diet, dating and dispersal of people down the millennia in the face of climate change — aim to rewrite anthropology.

“We want to make headlines from heads,” said Professor Clive Gamble of Southampton University. “DNA will give us a completely new map of the world and how we peopled it.”

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5927028/

Posted by: Seralia Sep 8 2004, 08:45 PM
I saw this article posted over at GLP quite a while ago and I was lucky enough to find a copy of it on another site.

Egyptian Artifacts in the Grand Canyon

The Phoenix Gazette - April 5, 1909

Remarkable Finds Indicate Ancient People Migrated From Orient

The latest news of the progress of the explorations or what is now regarded by scientists as not only the oldest archaeological discovery in the United States, but one of the most valuable in the world, which was mentioned some time ago in the Gazette (see photo at left), was brought to the city yesterday by G.E. Kinkaid, the explorer who found the great underground citadel of the Grand Canyon during a trip from Green River, Wyoming, down the Colorado, in a wooden boat, to Yuma, several months ago.

According to the story related to the Gazette by Mr. Kinkaid, the archaeologists of the Smithsonian Institute, which is financing the expeditions, have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove that the race which inhabited this mysterious cavern, hewn in solid rock by human hands, was of oriental origin, possibly from Egypt, tracing back to Ramses. If their theories are borne out by the

translation of the tablets engraved with hieroglyphics, the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America, their ancient arts, who they were and whence they came will be solved.

Egypt and the Nile, and Arizona and the Colorado will be linked by a historical chain running back to ages, which staggers the wildest fancy of the fictionist. Under the direction of Professor S.A. Jordan, the Smithsonian Institute is now prosecuting the most thorough explorations, which will be continued until the last link in the chain is forged.

Nearly a mile underground, about 1480 feet below the surface, the long main passage has been delved into, to find another mammoth chamber from which radiates scores of passageways, like the spokes of a wheel. Several hundred rooms have been discovered, reached by passageways running from the main passage, one of them having been explored are 854 feet and another 634 feet. The recent finds include articles, which have never been known as native to this country and doubtless they had their origin in the orient.

War weapons, copper instruments, sharp - edged and hard as steel, indicate the high state of civilization reached by these strange people. So interested have the scientists become that preparations are being made to equip the camp for extensive studies, and the force will be increased to thirty or forty persons.

"Before going further into the cavern, better facilities for lighting will have to be installed, for the darkness is dense and quite impenetrable for the average flashlight. In order to avoid being lost, wires are being strung from the entrance to all passageways leading directly to large chambers. How far this cavern extends no one can guess, but it is now the belief of many that what has already been explored is merely the "barracks", to use an American term, for the soldiers, and that far into the underworld will be found the main communal dwellings of the families. The perfect ventilation of the cavern, the steady draught that blows through, indicates that it has another outlet to the surface."

Mr. Kinkaid was the first white child born in Idaho and has been an explorer and hunter all his life, thirty years having been in the service of the Smithsonian Institute. Even briefly recounted, his history sounds fabulous, almost grotesque:

"First, I would impress that the cavern is nearly inaccessible. The entrance is 1,486 feet down the sheer canyon wall. It is located on government land and no visitor will be allowed there under penalty of trespass."

The scientist's wish to work unmolested, without fear of the archaeological discoveries being disturbed by curio or relic hunters. A trip there would be fruitless, and the visitor would be sent on his way.

"The story of how I found the cavern has been related, but in a paragraph: I was journeying down the Colorado River in a boat, alone, looking for minerals. Some forty two miles up the river from the El Tovar Crystal canyon, I saw on the east wall, stains in the sedimentary formation about 2,000 feet above the river bed. There was no trail to this point, but I finally reached it with great difficulty. Above a shelf, which hid it from view from the river, was the mouth of the cave."

"There are steps leading from this entrance some thirty yards to what was, at the time the cavern was inhabited, the level of the river. When I saw the chisel marks on the wall inside the entrance, I became interested, securing my gun and went in."

"During that trip, I went back several hundred feet along the main passage till I came to the crypt in which I discovered the mummies. One of these I stood up and photographed by flashlight. I gathered a number of relics, which I carried down the Colorado to Yuma, from whence I shipped them to Washington with details of the discovery. Following this, the explorations were undertaken."

"The main passageway is about 12 feet wide, narrowing to nine feet toward the farther end. About 57 feet from the entrance, the first side-passages branch off to the right and left, along which, on both sides, are a number of rooms about the size of ordinary living rooms of today, though some are 30 by 40 feet square. These are entered by oval-shaped doors and are ventilated by round air spaces through the walls into the passages. The walls are about three feet six inches in thickness. The passages are chiseled or hewn as straight as could be laid out by an engineer. The ceilings of many of the rooms converge to a center."

"The side-passages near the entrance run at a sharp angle from the main hall, but toward the rear, they gradually reach a right angle in direction."

THE SHRINE

"Over a hundred feet from the entrance is the cross-hall, several hundred feet long in which is found the idol, or image, of the people's god, sitting cross-legged, with lotus flower or lily in each hand. The cast of the face is oriental, the carving shows a skillful hand, and the entire object is remarkably well preserved, as is everything in this cavern."

"The idol almost resembles Buddha, though the scientists are not certain as to what religious worship it represents. Taking into consideration everything found thus far, it is possible that this worship most resembles the ancient people of Tibet."

"Surrounding this idol are smaller images, some very beautiful in form; others crooked-necked and distorted shapes, symbolical probably, of good and evil. There are two large cactus with protruding arms, one on each side of the dais on which the God squats. All this is carved out of hard rock resembling marble. In the opposite corner of this cross-hall were found tools of all descriptions, made of copper."

"These people undoubtedly knew the lost art of hardening this metal, which has been sought by chemists for centuries without result. On a bench running around the workroom was some charcoal and other material probably used in the process. There is also slag and stuff similar to matte, showing that these ancients smelted ores, but so far, no trace of where or how this was done has been discovered, nor the origin of the ore."

"Among the other finds are vases or urns and cups of copper and gold, made very artistic in design. The pottery work includes enameled ware and glazed vessels. Another passageway leads to granaries such as are found in the oriental temples. They contain seeds of various kinds. One very large storehouse has not yet been entered, as it is twelve feet high and can be reached only from above. Two copper hooks extend on the edge, which indicates that some sort of ladder was attached. These grannies are rounded, as the materials of which they are constructed, I think is a very hard cement. A Gray metal is also found in this cavern, which puzzles the scientists, for its identity has not been established. It resembles platinum."

"Strewn promiscuously over the floor everywhere are what people call 'cats eyes,' a yellow stone of no great value. Each one is engraved with the head of the Malay type."

THE HIEROGLYPHICS

"On all the urns, or walls over doorways, and tablets of stone which were found by the image are the mysterious hieroglyphics, the key to which the Smithsonian Institute hopes yet to discover. The engraving on the tablets probably has something to do with the religion of the people. Similar hieroglyphics have been found in southern Arizona. Among the pictorial writings, only two animals are found. One is of prehistoric type."

THE CRYPT

"The tomb or crypt in which the mummies were found is one of the largest of the chambers, the walls slanting back at an angle of about 35 degrees. On these are tiers of mummies, each one occupying a separate hewn shelf. At the bead of each is a small bench, on which is found copper cups and pieces of broken swords. Some of the mummies are covered with clay, and all are wrapped in a bark fabric. The urns or cups on the lower tiers are crude, while as the higher shelves are reached, the urns are finer in design, showing a later stage of civilization."

"It is worthy of note that all the mummies examined so far have proved to be male, no children or females being buried here. This leads to the belief that this exterior section was the warriors' barracks. Among the discoveries, no bones of animals have been found, no skins, no clothing, no bedding. Many of the rooms are bare but for water vessels. One room, about 40 by 700 feet, was probably the main dining hall, for cooking utensils are found here."

"What these people lived on is a problem, though it is presumed that they came south in the winter and farmed in the valleys, going back north in the summer. Upwards of 50,000 people could have lived in the caverns comfortably. One theory is that the present Indian tribes found in Arizona are descendants of the serfs or slaves of the people, which inhabited the cave. Undoubtedly a good many thousand of years before the Christian era a people lived here which reached a high stage of civilization. The chronology of human history is full of gaps."

Professor Jordan much enthused over the discoveries and believes that the find will prove of incalculable value in archaeological work.

"One thing I have not spoken of, may be of interest. There is one chamber, the passageway to which is not ventilated, and when we approached it a deadly, snaky smell struck us. Our light would not penetrate the gloom, and until stronger ones are available, we will not know what the chamber contains. Some say snakes, but other boo-hoo'd this idea and think it may contain a deadly gas or chemicals used by the ancients. No sounds are heard, but it smells snaky just the same."

"The whole underground installation gives one of shaky nerves the creeps. The gloom is like a weight on one's shoulders, and our flashlights and candles only make the darkness blacker. Imagination can revel in conjectures and ungodly daydreams back through the ages that have elapsed till the mind reels dizzily in space."

AN INDIAN LEGEND

In connection with this story, it is notable that among the Hopi Indians the tradition is told that their ancestors once lived in an underworld in the Grand Canyon till dissension arose between the good and the bad, the people of one heart and people of two hearts.

Machetto, who was their chief, counseled them to leave the under world, but there was no way out. The chief then caused a tree to grow up and pierce the roof of the underworld, and then the people of one heart climbed out. They tarried by Paisisvai (Red River), which is the Colorado, and grew grain and corn. They sent out a message to the Temple of the Sun, asking the blessing of peace, good will and rain for people of one heart. That messenger never returned, but today at the Hopi villages at sundown can be seen the old men of the tribe out on the housetops gazing toward the sun, looking for the messenger. When he returns, their lands and ancient dwelling place will be restored to them. That is the tradition.

Among the engravings of animals in the cave is seen the image of a heart over the spot where it is located. The legend was learned by W.E. Rollins the artist, during a year spent with the Hopi Indians. There are two theories of the origin of the Egyptians. One is that they came from Asia; another that the racial cradle was in the upper Nile region. Heeren, an Egyptologist, believed in the Indian origin of the Egyptians. The discoveries in the Grand Canyon may throw further light on human evolution and prehistoric ages.

http://www.crystalinks.com/grandcanyon.html

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/grandcanyon.html

http://rense.com/general6/egy.htm

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/text/0000tx09x.html


Posted by: Seralia Sep 8 2004, 09:00 PM
Here is some information about the Ancient Egyptians going over to Australia and leaving a considerable number of hieroglyphs.


Ancient Egypt Link with Australia

An Article by Paul White - 1996

After 5,000 years Australia's Amazing Hieroglyphs still struggle for recognition.

Egyptian hieroglyphs found in New South Wales:

The hieroglyphs tell the tale of early Egyptian explorers, injured and stranded, in ancient Australia. The discovery centres around a most unusual set of rock carvings found in the National Park forest of the Hunter Valley, 100 km north of Sydney.

The enigmatic carvings have been part of the local folklore of the area for nearly a century with reports of people who sighted them as far back as the early 1900's.

The site was secretly visited by families "in the know" in the 1950's and fell back into local mythology for a couple of decades until it was accidentally rediscovered by a man looking for his lost dog.

The carvings are in a rock cleft, a large block of split sandstone on a cliff-face that has created a small chasm or "chamber" of two flat stone walls facing each other that widens out from two to four metres and is covered in by a huge flat rock as a "roof" at the narrow end.

The cleft is most cave-like and only accessible by a small rock chute from above or below, well disguised from the average bush-walker.

When you first come up the rock chute and climb into the stone hallway you are immediately confronted by a number of worn carvings that are obviously ancient Egyptian symbols. These are certainly not your average Aboriginal animal carvings, but something clearly alien in the Australian bush setting.

There are at least 250 hieroglyphs.

At the end of the chamber, protected by the remaining section of stone roof, is a remarkable third-life sized carving of the ancient Egyptian god "Anubis", the Judge of the Dead !

continued here:

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crystalinks.com%2Fegyptaustralia.html

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 9 2004, 10:35 AM
Seralia, what a find! This put into remembrance not only JenThom's post about Australia and the trail of the snake, the sign of the Tribe of Dan, but a place either in Colorado or Arizona where a cave was found. Much was on the Azazel thread, that part of which is lost to me, but PuPP should have the info.

I wonder if it is the same cave. Can't remember the details.

BJ

Posted by: Seralia Sep 9 2004, 03:04 PM
I just remembered something about some ancient Egyptian/European artifacts being found in the mid-west somewhere about two years ago BJ. I did some searching and I found one of the stories as well as images of a few of the artifacts.


Does This Depict The Life Of Christ?

It was discovered in the American Midwest!

QUOTE
Robert Ghostwolf and Dannion Brinkley were on the Art Bell Radio Program - now Coast to Coast. What they shared with Art and his millions of listeners was fascinating and shocking.

A man-made cavern described as consisting of at least 3-levels, and hundreds of rooms, descending into the earth to depths of over 195 feet has been discovered in middle America. The exact location was not disclosed as further study needs to be completed.

I can only paraphase what was said and ask you, the reader to do additional research, and draw your own conclusions.

Initial carbon dating as proven that the cavern was build prior to Christopher Columbus's 1492 voyage. Artifacts found in the caverns has been dated to at least 2200 years old. There still are many objects to be dated and translated.


user posted image

QUOTE
This is a fascinating depiction of Norah's Ark. Note that the image of the arc shows three decks. No ships of that date to our knowledge had more than one deck.


QUOTE
Celtic/Orgom writing- Greek/Old Trojan- Mesopotamian- the Archaic language- Isis -Pre-Egyptian-Egyptian- Hebrew- Latin, and several we're not familiar with, including some symbols that I have only seen on the artifacts that are supposed to come from Roswell!! Presently we have enough here to give you the overview of the situation, and there is a lot more where these came from.. Much of this should by now give us the idea that perhaps Columbus really, as the Native Americans said, "Never discovered a new world. he found his way home after being lost for a long time in the darkness that settled over Europe and the Middle East after the great Wars of the Heavens."


user posted image

QUOTE
Arc of the Covenant. Shield of the Order of priest hood of Aron. (Special Kabalic knowledge of ancient mysteries- Royal Bloodline from the Royal Court of the Dragon) Seal of Solomon, (initiate) Lord of the Sun and Moon.


http://www.ufodigest.com/ghostwolf.html

There was also supposedly a cave found in Illinois somewhere that was said to contain several artifacts.

The "Burrows Cave" Controversy

QUOTE
According to the basic story, a man named Russell Burrows was walking through the countryside in Illinois one day in April 1982 when he either a) fell on a large rock that suddenly tilted sideways under his weight, nearly throwing him into a pit; or b) stumbled across the mouth of a cave where he noted the presence of numerous artifacts. Inside the cave he claimed to have found hundreds, perhaps thousands of carved stones bearing figures or letters in some unknown language. Others were said to contain depictions of deities, humans, ships, and so forth.

Burrows is said to have taken some of these items away for analysis and later examination by a number of archaeologists and epigraphers. Many, including retired botanist and amateur epigrapher Barry Fell (who previously had proposed similarities between certain native American languages and Hebrew) pronounced the stones to be fakes, as did many members of the Epigraphic Society. However other researchers - mostly non-academics - disagreed, declaring the inscriptions were written in Egyptian, Sumerian, Greek, Etruscan, and other ancient languages that were never spoken in North America. They also claimed that many stones bore a strong resemblance to others found in each of these ancient lands. Thus, say supporters of the artifacts' authenticity, we have strong evidence of significant contact by numerous ancient cultures with the North American continent long before Columbus or the Scandinavians set foot here. The same people claim other such sites must exist and point to allegedly similar carvings found in Michigan and other locations.


http://www.criticalenquiry.org/burrowscave/


Update on Southern Illinois site

QUOTE
The June/July, 1999 issue of Ancient American published exciting news concerning the disclosed location and planned excavation of the controversial "Burrows Cave." It allegedly contains thousands of inscribed and illustrated stone tablets deposited by Old World visitors to southern Illinois almost 2,000 years ago.


http://www.ancientamerican.com/cave1.htm


Posted by: Mark Sep 9 2004, 05:53 PM
I Love this subject!

QUOTE
According to the story related to the Gazette by Mr. Kinkaid, the archaeologists of the Smithsonian Institute, which is financing the expeditions, have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove that the race which inhabited this mysterious cavern, hewn in solid rock by human hands, was of oriental origin, possibly from Egypt, tracing back to Ramses.

If their theories are borne out by the translation of the tablets engraved with hieroglyphics, the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America, their ancient arts, who they were and whence they came will be solved.



In 1909, The Smithsonian Institution found evidence of an advanced culture predating the Native Americans, and yet almost 100 years later, we're still not taught the truth in public schools.

Here's a newspaper clipping from 1947 that I think is relevant to this thread.

user posted image

There's so much that has been kept from the mainstream public, I can't wait to see what we uncover next.


Posted by: Seralia Sep 9 2004, 06:49 PM
That's some very interesting information PuPP and I can add to it. I found out a little something about another cave that was discovered in New Mexico that was occupied by humans at least 27 thousand years ago.

Sandia Man Caves- New Mexico

QUOTE
Who were the first Americans?
   
During 1940 new light was thrown on this intriguing question by Frank C. Hibben of the University of New Mexico. He found evidence of Americans apparently even older than the famous Folsom Man who probably hunted in the southwestern United States during the later stages of the Ice Age, some 25,000 years ago. The new discoveries consist of distinctive weapons found in a cave in the Sandia Mountains of New Mexico. Sandia Man, himself, like Folsom Man, is missing. And it is unlikly that there is any link between him and Native Americans or or early Mexicans that later inhabited the area.

The tools and camp-ground debris, however, were clues from which can be built a picture of the Americans and American life late in the Ice Age. Perhaps as far back as 27,000 years ago

Sandia Man hunted elephants and saber-tooth tigers in the Sandia Mountain area. Archaeologists have suggested that Sandia Man sought shelter in Sandia Cave in the Sandia mountains following archaeological research in the region.


http://www.geocities.com/sandiaman2002/Sandia_Man_Caves.html

QUOTE
Controversial archaeological evidence suggests that humans occupied this area during the mid to late Wisconsinan (26,000 to 11,000 years B.P.). Excavations of the Sandia Cave revealed three levels of occupation: (1) pre-Columbian pueblo-style artifacts, (2) Folsom spear points associated with bones of extinct bison, mammoth, giant sloth, camel, horse, and wolves, and (3) bones of megafauna, hearths and implements of nomadic hunters such as the "Sandia point" (Chronic 1987).


http://sevilleta.unm.edu/~bmilne/bio310/sandia/sandia.html




Posted by: BJ1 Sep 10 2004, 10:07 AM
Seralia and PuPP, my memory was jogged by remembering "Hopi" and came up Anasazi, which is what I wanted. Here are a couple of sites with terrific photos of their dwellings. Made me wonder what was/is underground! Maybe that is where they vanished. Theories abound.


"The national parks service and others are now applying the name Pueblo Dwellers to the aboriginal people who are commonly called the Anasazi (Ah-nah-sah-zee). This is a Navajo term for "Ancient Enemies" or "Ancient Ones." The Hopi call these people Hisatsinom for "Those-who-came-before." Other names used by non-native residents of the region are Moki or Moqui, a Hopi word meaning "the Dead". -who-came-before."

No one knows exactly why the Anasazi disappeared, nor where they went, but "In about 1200 AD the Anasazi had completely disappeared from the major dwelling-towns like those at Mesa Verde and Chaco Canyon." Two theories speculate that they were either driven out by a stronger race, or a severe drought caused their evacuation and they merged with the surrounding communities.

The following site has a series of 44 photos with wall paintings depicting horned people (priests?) strange-looking animals, and configurations.

Because the cliff walls high, steep, and too smooth to climb, how did the Anasazi manage to carve\paint the petrographs? Why risk the danger of falling unless those are important messages of some kind?

http://raysweb.net/anasazi-images/pages/anasaziinfo.html
--------------------------------------------------------------
The Anasazi culture emerged, in the south western USA, long before the whites arrived and left a great amount of archaeological evidence. That can be seen now in the territory of the Four Corners, crossed by the modern borders of the four states of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah and Colorado.

The Anasazi culture, born around the time of Jesus Christ, slowly developed to originate the so called Chacoan Phenomenon, showing the apex for this population between 1050 and 1125 A.D.

(Dates vary, but 1 A.D. to 1300 A.D. is about right.)

Another interesting theory as to their sudden disappearance comes from a new "theory" or interprtation by archaeologists:

"By comparing the time when the Chaco Canyon culture was ended with the initial development of the same culture in the Aztec settlement and later at Casas Grandes in Mexico, the scientists found the two dates in close sequence....the most striking thing is that all the villages Aztec Ruins, Solomon Ruins, Chaco Canyon and Casas Grandes, are all perfectly aligned on the same meridian number 108. This is most unlikely by chance, being instead much more credible an intentional fact." (They just don't know how they did it. Problem: The Anasazi buildings don't resemble Aztec architecture???)

This site offers a series of 28 photos with lots of close-up details of outer Mesa Verde Anasazi cliff dwellings. Impressive!

http://www.towson.edu/~brenda/newmexico/anasazi.htm



BJ




Posted by: Mark Sep 10 2004, 03:47 PM
More excellant info.... thanks!

Many people wonder what happened to these ancient civilizations and speculate that drought caused their demise.

Clearly the evidence shows in their structures that the Anasazi people were under attack from another race and built high walls and built way up high into steep cliffs to keep the invaders out.

One explanation could be that the smaller indians were under attack by a much taller race, one that was over 6 feet tall.

There's ample evidence of giants in North America, though it has been suppressed by the Smithsonian Institution and other organizations that keep the truth and facts hidden.


Nephilim/ Nefilim = NFL Films

(just my theory)




Posted by: Seralia Sep 11 2004, 01:51 PM
This is an interesting story.


Ancient skeleton found in submerged cave

Friday, September 10, 2004 Posted: 10:03 AM EDT (1403 GMT)

MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- Divers making dangerous probes through underwater caves near the Caribbean coast have discovered what appears to be one of oldest human skeletons in the Americas, archaeologists announced at a seminar that was ending on Friday.

The report by a team from Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History exploits a new way of investigating the past. Most coastal settlements by early Americans now lie deep beneath the sea, which during the Ice Age was hundreds of feet lower than now.

Researchers at the international "Early Man in America" seminar here also reported other ancient finds -- including a California bone that is a rival for the title of the oldest in the Americas.

The discoveries fall close to the start of the time that traditional theories say a so-called Clovis culture could have moved from Asia to Alaska over a temporary land corridor that began to open about 13,500 years ago.

Many academics argue that new discoveries, especially in South America, prove the Clovis people found existing inhabitants, who may have arrived by hop scotching past the northern ice fields in small boats.

Arturo Gonzalez said his team discovered at least three skeletons in caves along the Caribbean coast of Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula in 2001 and 2002. Photos showed two remarkably well preserved.

"It's something that I had been dreaming of for many years," said Gonzalez, 39, who has combined diving and research since he was a teenager. "To find a person who had walked those caves was like a treasure."

Gonzalez said the bones must date from before the time that waters gradually seeped through the caves 8,000 to 9,000 years ago as Ice Age glaciers melted and sea level rose by about 400 feet worldwide.

Tests on charcoal found beside one female skeleton would place it at least 10,000 years ago. An expert at the University of California, Riverside, dated it as 11,670 radiocarbon years old -- which would translate to well over 13,000 calendar years.

If confirmed, "that would be the oldest" radio carbon date in the Americas obtained from a human bone, said archaeology textbook author Stuart Fiedel.

Fiedel, a defender of the "Clovis first" school, said the oldest estimate for the cave find still fits the Clovis time frame, though narrowly.

Larry Murphy, chief of the Submerged Resources Center for the U.S. National Park Service, said in a telephone interview that the Mexican exploration was "one of the first systematic studies of human materials associated with a submarine cave."

The discovery helps prove that humans inhabited the Yucatan at least 5,000 years before the famed Maya culture began building monuments at sites such as nearby Tulum.

Gonzalez said the skeleton did not appear to be Mayan, but with no tools yet found, almost nothing is known of those first inhabitants.

Gonzalez said cave divers had sometimes mentioned seeing skeletons and he convinced skeptical officials to finance a survey of the water holes that dot the Yucatan, a limestone shelf.

Extensive, flooded caves wind off from some of those holes. Many were above ground during the Ice Age and Gonzalez speculated people may have used them as paths down to fresh water.

Gonzalez said the oldest find was made 404 yards into a cave, more than 65 feet below sea level, during expeditions that can be extremely dangerous.

It took repeated trips to record the sites and excavate the bones, which then required two years of preservation.

Team co-director Carmen Rojas said the divers had 40 minutes to wind their way through the cave to the site, 20 minutes to work there and 40 minutes to swim back, followed by 20 to 60 minutes of decompression time.

"You train five years for those 20 minutes," she said.

Meanwhile, John Johnson of the University of California, Santa Barbara, said an elaborate restudy of a woman's femur found on Santa Rosa Island in California's Channel Islands established a calendar-year age of 13,200 to 13,500 years. It had been calculated at about 1,000 years less when found in 1959.

Both discoveries would be significantly older than the skeleton known Kennewick Man -- 9,300-year-old paleoindian remains found by teenagers along a Washington state riverbank in 1996.

Until now, the Americas have produced only 25 bones or skeletons dated as more than 8,000 years old, said Silvia Gonzalez of John Moores University in Liverpool, England. But she told the conference that she would soon publish a paper establishing that humans occupied a site near Puebla east of Mexico City 21,000 to 28,000 years ago.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/09/10/mexico.firstamericans.ap/


Posted by: BJ1 Sep 12 2004, 06:48 AM
Seralia, in one of your posts is mentioned something about the "Kennewick Man". Here is something interesting on the "Kennewick Man", found by "two men watching the annual hydro boat races at Columbia Park in Kennewick, Washington"...on July 28, 1996.

"Public interest, debate, and controversy began when an independent archaeologist, working on contract to the Kennewick coroner, decided the bones were ancient but might not be Native American. He described them as "Caucasoid" and sent a piece of bone to a laboratory to be dated. The final date indicated an age of 8,400 years, making Kennewick Man one of the oldest and most complete skeletons found in the Americas. But if it is true that these human remains are thousands of years old, and are not Native American, then who was Kennewick Man?"

Under U.S. law, if the bones of Kennewick Man are deemed to be the ancestral bones of a Native American tribe, then those remains must be returned to them for buial. There is an on-going court case, regarding the skeletal remains, between archeologists and American Indians, pitting scientific research against religious tradtion. Under NAGPRA law it states that, if the Indians can satisfactorily prove that the bones are those of an ancestor, then they must be repatriated to the affiliated tribe.

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/kman/default.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Updates on the Kennewick Man court case (since 1998):
Burke Museum comment:
On Mon., April 19, 2004, the Ninth Circuit denied the request for a rehearing en banc of the Bonnichsen decision (Kennewick Man case). While awaiting instructions from the legal owners (Army Corps of Engineers), the museum will continue to provide a secure and respectful repository for these human remains for as long as required by the court and the legal owners of the remains.

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/kmanupdate.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This story was published Thursday, August 5th, 2004

By Anna King, Herald staff writer

The eight-year clash over Kennewick Man's remains was settled in July, but how to study the 9,300-year-old bones and where they should go now continues to stir controversy.

The remains are considered to belong to one of the most complete ancient skeletons ever found. The 9th District Court ruled last month that the remains were not related to the existing tribes, and, therefore, could be studied by scientists.

The scientists asked the 9th District to exclude the tribes from any further involvement with the Kennewick Man case, because they won the court battle. The tribes say they still have a legal right to comment on how the study is conducted and what will become of the ancient remains after the study. They also are concerned the scientists will want to excavate the burial site along the bank of the Columbia River again.

The scientists asked the 9th District to exclude the tribes from any further involvement with the Kennewick Man case, because they won the court battle. The tribes say they still have a legal right to comment on how the study is conducted and what will become of the ancient remains after the study. They also are concerned the scientists will want to excavate the burial site along the bank of the Columbia River again.

It is unclear when the judge will reach a determination on whether the tribes can legally be excluded from commenting on the Kennewick Man study. Kennewick Man's remains are now stored at the University of Washington's Burke Museum in Seattle.

(The battle rages on as to whether the Tribal Council will have anything to say about further scientific study.)

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/tch/local/story/5386526p-5324967c.html

---------------------------------------------------------------

BJ

Posted by: Seralia Sep 12 2004, 07:16 PM
The Kennewick man is a very interesting case BJ. There were a number of tests conducted on the skeleton and from what I remember, the skull was definitely caucausoid and one reconstruction of the skull that was conducted revealed that he closely resembled Patrick Stewart/Captain Picard.

user posted image

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/kennewick.html

QUOTE
On July 28,1996 Will Thomas and Dave Deacy found a skeleton, later to be called the Kennewick Man, on the banks of the Columbia River in Washington State. They called the Benton County coroner's office, which then turned it over to Dr. Jim Chatters, a professor at Central Washington University, owner of Applied Paleoscience in Richland, Washington, and a local specialist in ancient bones who also happens to be married to an Indian woman. Immediately Dr. Chatters recognized the skull as Caucasoid and at first thought it might be that of an early 19th-century White pioneer, so he sent samples of the bones to an appropriate laboratory to be dated. Through advanced methods in radio carbon dating the Kennewick Man was found to be about 9,300 years old. The remains are the best preserved and fullest skeleton of the seven similar ones that have been discovered in North America. After many anthropologists and other scientists did further testing on these skeletons, they found out that, in one way or another, they all had Caucasoid features.1


user posted image
user posted image

QUOTE
Caucasoid traits in the Kennewick Man -- with his long narrow face, slight overbite, prominent chin, and an ancient spear point in his hip (possibly from an enemy tribe), he looked much like Patrick Stewart, the Captain John Luke Picard of the Television series 'Star Trek'10 --


http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/hive/Kennewic.htm

Posted by: Seralia Sep 12 2004, 07:29 PM
Here is some more information on the Kennewick man:


QUOTE
Between 1998 and 2000, the Department of the Interior and National Park Service, in cooperation with the Corps of Engineers, the federal agency responsible for the Kennewick remains, conducted a series of scientific examinations of the remains. No fewer than eighteen nationally and internationally recognized scientists and scholars conducted this variety of historical and scientific examinations, analyses, tests, and studies (Table 1).


http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/

And I also found some information stating that Europeans were definitely in America 28,000 BC. clapping.gif

Saturday 19 February 2000

Europeans colonised America in 28,000 BC

By Roger Highfield, Science Editor, in Washington DC

EUROPEANS colonised America up to 30,000 years ago, perhaps by crossing the Atlantic, according to a genetic analysis of native Americans that sheds light on their origins.

By studying the DNA in "power packs" of cells called mitochondria, scientists can compare populations to reveal evidence of ancient migrations, the American Association for the Advancement of Science was told. Such work reveals four major lineages in native Americans which can be traced to Siberia and north-east Asia, notably in Baikal and Altai-Sayan.

However, a fifth - more minor - founding lineage, called haplogroup X, can be traced to Europe, and is found in North American populations, said Dr Theodore Schurr of the Southwest Foundation for Biomedical Research in San Antonio, Texas. Dr Schurr said: "This is one of the intriguing findings that we have come across recently. These data imply that haplogroup X was present in the New World long before Europeans first arrived in the New World, before Columbus or the Vikings or anybody else."

The find has led to some speculation that ancient people crossed the Atlantic from the Old World, because evidence of the group has not so far been found in Asia, though he stressed that not all central Asian groups had been analysed. Dr Schurr said: "Haplogroup X was brought to the New World by an ancient Eurasian population in a migratory event distinct from those bringing the other four lineages to the Americas."

The haplogroup X occurs most among Algonkian-speaking groups such as the Ojibwa, and has been detected in two pre-Colombian north American populations. Today, haplogroup X is found in between two and four per cent of European populations, and in the Middle East, he said, particularly in Israel.

The complex origins of the first Americans has also been highlighted by an analysis of thousands of skulls from around the world. A team of anthropologists from the University of Michigan found that the study confirmed the complex origins of Native Americans that have been suggested by recent archeological and genetic studies.

Using comparisons of thousands of ancient and modern skulls, collected over a period of 20 years and containing new data from Mongolia that became accessible just last summer, Prof Loring Brace showed how the native inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere fit into several different groups based on craniofacial patterns. Their studies show that descendants of the first humans to enter the New World, including natives of Mexico, Peru, and the southern United States, have no obvious ties to any Asian groups. He said: "This could be because they have been separated from their Asian sources for the longest period of time."

A second group - including the Blackfoot, Iroquois, and other tribes from Minnesota, Michigan, Ontario, and Massachusetts - was descended from the Jomon, the prehistoric people of Japan. The Inuit appear to be a later branch from that same Jomon trunk. Tribal groups who lived down the eastern seaboard into Florida share this origin, according to prof Brace. Another group, originating in China and including the Athabascan-speaking people of the Yukon drainage of Alaska and north-west Canada, spread as far south as Arizona and northern Mexico.

He said: "Their craniofacial configuration allies them more closely to the living Chinese than to any other population in either hemisphere."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/2000/02/19/wus19.html



Posted by: Seralia Sep 12 2004, 07:34 PM
Ancient American Skeleton Has European DNA Link

[Original headline: Sinkhole Skeleton - Skeleton’s DNA Could Shed Light on American Migrations]

Vanlue, Ohio [AP] — The discovery of prehistoric tools from an Ohio cave is one of several finds that has scientists questioning the identity of settlers thought to have moved in 11,000 years ago.

A just completed excavation of Sheriden Cave in Wyandot County, 100 miles southwest of Cleveland, revealed tools made from flaked stone and bone. The items are scheduled to go on display next year at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History.

Kent State University archaeologist Kenneth Tankersley, who led the excavation over the past four years, said definite answers won’t come until someone finds an Ice Age skeleton and the DNA is tested.

Rare Genetic Link to Europe
“Disagreement swirls around the timing of their arrival, the nature of their migration, how fast they moved across the landscape and their relationship to contemporary Native Americans,” he said.

Some scientists think that the earliest colonizers could have started out somewhere in Europe, not in Asia as previously thought. That idea is rooted in a rare genetic link called haplogroup X - DNA passed down through women that dates back more than 30,000 years.

Recent genetic samples from remains in Illinois show that the rare European DNA was around centuries before European exploration. Today, haplogroup X is found in about 20,000 American Indians.

To some researchers, its presence suggests the Mongolian ancestors of most American Indians were latecomers. Genetic tests show the DNA is completely absent from East Asian and Siberian populations.

That could dispel the more than half-century old notion that humans migrated across a land bridge from Siberia at the end of the Ice Age, made stone tools and hunted while moving south.

Archaeologists since 1996 have found genetic indications of several migrations, along with evidence that people came from Polynesia, regions near Japan and even western Europe.

Skeleton Has Scientists Jumpy
“Frankly, it makes me nervous,” Smithsonian Institution anthropologist Stephen Loring said of the idea that the first Americans during the Ice Age were of European ancestry.

“It’s a heretical argument, and some people, unfortunately, will use it to assert the cultural superiority of Europeans. But it’s a good theory that needs to be tested.”

Tankersley and Brian Redmond, head of archaeology at the Cleveland Natural History Museum, have been seeking clues about the first colonizers from the cave, which is hidden 50 feet below cornfields.

“To find human remains of that age, 11,000 years old, is really, really rare, and I don’t think there are any in that cavern. We would have found them,” Redmond said. But he added, “Who knows what may turn up in the future. We’re certain it was a camping area.”

Farmers and landowners fear they could be tied up in litigation by preservationists and Indian tribes if old bones are disturbed.

“We know of places where you could probably find human remains up here,” said Keith Hendricks, a Hancock County sheriff’s deputy whose family owns the sinkhole where the Ice Age relics have been recovered. “But the problem is you’d be opening a Pandora’s box. It’s a sensitive issue.”

• Story originally published by •
ABCNEWS.com - November 27 2000

http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/adna.htm

Posted by: Seralia Sep 12 2004, 07:53 PM
It appears that the government was attempting to cover up the fact that Europeans were in America a long time ago when they purposely covered up the site where the Kennewick man was found. mad.gif


Corps starts to cover Kennewick Man site

This story was published Tuesday, April 7th, 1998

By Jason Hagey Herald staff writer

The booming percussion of helicopter blades threatened to drown out the sound of Alan Cliff's drum, but he didn't care.

The chopper, which started its work Monday morning in apparent defiance of Congress, was doing what he and other American Indians wanted: dropping loads of rock and dirt over the spot where two hydroplane racing fans discovered Kennewick Man nearly two years ago.

"I feel good," said Cliff, of Benton City, after an hour-long ceremony on the banks of the Columbia River meant to calm the spirit of the 9,200-year-old bones. "This is a good thing."

"You have to shake your head and say, 'What are they doing?' " said Jim Chatters, the Richland scientist who has been in the middle of the controversy over Kennewick Man since he was discovered in July 1996. "Are they doing this out of spite?"

Dutch Meier, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers, said the work is being done out of necessity.

Erosion and looting are threatening to destroy the shore near where Kennewick Man was found, Meier said, and any attempt at stopping it must be completed by April 15, the deadline this year for doing any work near the river because of salmon-protection regulations.

It could take until then to complete the job, he said.

Meanwhile, the shore is continuing to erode and April 15 is drawing near, he said. "We made the decision to proceed," Meier said.

Earth Construction of Orofino, Idaho, is doing the work. The company is being paid $160,000 to cover 250 feet of shoreline with rocks, dirt and trees.

Despite bills being passed in the U.S. House and Senate barring the work without a court order, Meier said the corps could not delay. Neither bill has been signed into law, he said, and it isn't clear when that might happen.

Rep. Doc Hastings, R-Wash., said he was "very disappointed" with the decision.

In addition to the legislation passed in Congress, Hastings and U.S. Sen. Slade Gorton, R-Wash., wrote a letter to the Interior Department last week, urging Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt to stop the work.

But Meier said it would take a court order to stop the work.

None of the groups hoping to learn from Kennewick Man, including a group of scientists who are suing for the right to study the bones, had filed for one by Monday.

Michael Clinton, a Portland lawyer for the Asatru Folk Assembly, a California-based religious sect hoping to study Kennewick Man, told The Associated Press he did not plan to seek a court order.

But Clinton said he planned to file a motion next week asking for a federal prosecutor to investigate whether the corps may have broken any laws by proceeding with the shoreline work.

He said he will file the motion with U.S. Magistrate Judge John Jelderks, who is overseeing the civil lawsuit filed by the scientists.

Chatters said the scientists couldn't afford to file a court order to stop the burial in addition to the other court battles.

The corps, with the backing of the federal coffers, doesn't need to worry about money for lawyers, he said.

"We have to pick and choose our fights," he said.

In the end, studying the bones is more important than the site, Chatters said. But without the ability to further study the site where they were found, scientists are severely hampered.

Armand Minthorn, a member of the board of trustees for the Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla, said burying the Kennewick Man site does not rule out the possibility of future study.

But Chatters believes once the site burial is finished, neither he nor any other scientist will ever get the chance to further examine the river shore for clues.

"Now we have to go in and excavate to do that," he said. "And every time we try to do that, the Indians will complain."

None of the Indians who gathered Monday to watch the chopper was complaining.

"This is a preservation of our culture," Minthorn said.

http://www.kennewick-man.com/kman/news/story/2888674p-2924502c.html


Posted by: Seralia Sep 12 2004, 08:04 PM
The Kennewick man also looks like Wes Studi who is a famous Cherokee actor.

user posted image

I wouldn't mind checking out his DNA. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Seralia Sep 12 2004, 08:23 PM
Maybe we can push back the occupation of America just a bit farther. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Laguna Man 400,000 - 200,000 BP

The Earliest known humans in America have been classified as ‘Laguna Man’ (Forbidden Archaeology).  Ancient human remains were found in the hills surrounding Laguna, California, during a mud-slide in 1976.  These skeletal remains have been dated by amino-acid-racemization to be between 200,000 to 400,000 BP (Before Present).  Rock structures have been located beneath the sands of the Mojave Desert nearby, which may be associated with Laguna Man.  Carbon dating techniques were inadequate for this study, as carbon dating is only able to determine up to 50,000 years of carbon decay.

Laguna Man is believed to have crossed the Great Land Bridge (Beringia) during the Wisconsin period of the last Ice Age, and migrated south.  As the climate shifted, and game animals changed their feeding patterns, they moved from the high hills to the ocean shores of California.  Similar skeletal remains (skulls and tooth patterns) have been found in northern China, indicating that these people were genetically related.  The remains in China are related to reindeer hunting and cooking, as charred bones have been found in the associated deposits.  These bones are typically charred on the ends, which normally occurs when a leg of meat is roasted on a fire.  The Chinese caves in which these remains were found are located near Peking in the “Sacred Mountain” of  Tio-ko Tien.

The stone structure remains in the Mojave Desert have blackened stones around an apparent ‘fire pit’ or hearth, indicating the earliest use of fire in the New Word.  Skeletal remains have not yet been found in this area, associated with this site.  But, with carbon dating, the charcoal scrapings have been determined to be older than 50,000 years.  As the Mojave Desert has been classified as an ecologically sensitive area, I doubt that they will ever be given the chance to continue their digging.  Sorry if I burst your ‘bubble’, but I was studying archaeology at Cal Tech when these discoveries were made.


http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/cheranhistory.htm

Posted by: Mark Sep 12 2004, 08:50 PM
QUOTE
the skull was definitely caucausoid and one reconstruction of the skull that was conducted revealed that he closely resembled Patrick Stewart/Captain Picard


I was going to say that he sure looked a lot like Picard.

Thanks for the information!

smile.gif




Posted by: Mark Sep 12 2004, 09:06 PM
Ahhhh - Forbidden Archaeology - LOVE IT!

Thanks Seralia, I don't recall reading much about Laguna Man before.

Here's some images from Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, USA of structures built by the Anasazi from BJs link.


user posted image

user posted image

I wish we had some modern day humans standing next to the doorways and structures to get an idea of how tall these people were.

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 13 2004, 06:17 AM
PuPP, on the site from which you got those pics, I looked in vain for more doorways other than one or two, which seemed to be doorways. Reading the sites' descriptions, the entrances were made in the deep round excavations that led to the main buildings. I wouldn't think it odd that many tunnels exist underneathe the entire cliff dwellings. That is a fascinating cliff dwelling place!

It would appear that the inhabitants were on the very tall side when you consider the size of the windows taken from the air. We might consider the height of the structures that were built with large and heavy stones. It would have taken men of great strength to hoist them up so high and position them. Just a guess.

BJ

Posted by: DarmonVing Sep 14 2004, 08:46 PM
This is a good site to see some good views of Chaco Canyon. If you have QuickTime, there are some cool 360 degree panoramas of a few of the sites.

Chaco Canyon Tour

http://www.colorado.edu/Conferences/chaco/tour/chacomap.htm

I was looking for this next piece of information for a while and managed to find it quite by accident while looking for information on Anasazi skeletons. I had heard about a fierce tribe that ground their teeth into fangs and ate human flesh. Either the Anisazi were cannibals or the Anisazi were eaten by the cannibals. I saw a documentary concerning the mysterious cannibals and even saw a few of their skulls. They did have some very pointy fangs. I wonder if they were trying to be like the reptile people. blink.gif Perhaps they were members of the "Sett" clan who had finally caught up to a branch of the bird people.

Week of Sept. 9, 2000; Vol. 158, No. 11 , p. 164

Ancient Site Holds Cannibalism Clues

Bruce Bower

Excavations of three 850-year-old pit dwellings strewn with butchered human skeletons have yielded evidence of cannibalism in the prehistoric U.S. Southwest, according to a new report. The discoveries include the first example ever of what some scientists regard as a crucial sign of past cannibalism: a fossilized piece of human feces, also known as a coprolite, that contains the chemical residue of human flesh.

During a period of intense warfare throughout the region from A.D. 1150 to 1200, residents of the dwellings fell prey to attackers who killed and ate them, theorizes anthropologist Brian R. Billman of the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. At least a few hours later, one of the attackers must have defecated in the victims' fireplace, he contends.

"We see that as an act of contempt," he says. "There was probably a brief outbreak of cannibalism that was used as a political or military strategy at prehistoric Anasazi sites."

The new finds come from a site called Cowboy Wash in southwestern Colorado. The report by Billman and his colleagues appears in the Sept. 7 Nature.

Reports of cannibalism at other Anasazi sites dating to between 800 and 1,600 years old have been controversial (SN: 1/2/93, p. 12), and the Cowboy Wash claim is no exception. Critics suspect that Billman's group has mistaken a coyote coprolite for that of a person. Either warfare, reburial rituals, or the organized killing of people deemed to be witches—none of which included cannibalism—might have yielded the other signs of apparent cannibalism reported at Cowboy Wash, they argue.

The new evidence confirms that cannibalism occurred at the Anasazi site, Billman responds. His group recovered the remains of seven people of both sexes and various ages on the floors of two pit houses. The bones exhibit incisions typical of butchery and have polished ends produced by cooking in pots, the researchers say.

Household items and other material in the structures indicate that the homes were suddenly abandoned, they add.

Chemical analyses of pieces of a cooking pot, directed by biochemist Richard A. Marlar of the University of Colorado School of Medicine in Denver, detected the residue of human myoglobin. Occurring solely in muscle, this protein indicates that human tissue was cooked in the pot, the scientists contend.

Further tests failed to find human myoglobin in storage vessels at Cowboy Wash or in cooking pots from several Anasazi sites occupied before A.D. 1150.

The coprolite, found in the ashes of a hearth, is shaped like that of a human, Billman holds. Also, it contains human myoglobin but no signs of canine origin, such as dog hairs or fragments of chewed bones. Surprisingly, no plant remains were detected.

Coprolites previously recovered from a latrine area at another Anasazi site, as well as samples of modern human feces, bore no traces of human myoglobin.

Cowboy Wash consists of nine sites, each with one to three pit houses. All four sites excavated so far contain butchered human skeletons, Billman says. He estimates that at least 35 people were killed and eaten in the same attack.

Severe drought and political upheaval in the region may have temporarily sparked cannibalistic practices, Billman proposes. For about 50 years, such forces overrode a strict Anasazi taboo against cannibalism, he adds.

In a commentary in the same journal, physiologist Jared M. Diamond of the University of California Medical School in Los Angeles calls the new report "compelling evidence" of cannibalism in the prehistoric U.S. Southwest.

Peter Y. Bullock, an archaeologist at the Museum of New Mexico in Santa Fe, disagrees, however. Coyotes are common scavengers in this part of the country and could easily have deposited the Cowboy Wash coprolite, Bullock asserts.

Further Cowboy Wash excavations may yield more data, but neither Billman nor Bullock expects them to resolve the cannibalism debate.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20000909/fob1.asp

Posted by: DarmonVing Sep 14 2004, 08:55 PM
Dying for dinner?

A debate rages over desert cannibalism

BY RACHEL HARTIGAN

"Holy smokes, I'm looking at a feast." That's what anthropologist Christy Turner thought when he opened a cardboard box of skeletal remains at the Museum of Northern Arizona 30 years ago and found over a thousand broken and burned bones. They looked like butchered and cooked animal remains. But the Arizona State professor knew the bones belonged to humans.

Turner believes the battered bones hold the answer to a puzzle that has long preoccupied archaeologists: Why did the Anasazi start building massive stone pueblos around A.D. 900 at Chaco Canyon in New Mexico–structures that aligned with the sun, the moon, and each other–then abandon them 250 years later?

At first, Turner didn't particularly care who ate whom. His goal was to determine what signature, if any, cannibalism leaves on bones. Comparing butchered animal remains with those he suspected were cannibalized, he devised six criteria for cannibalism, from cuts by sharp defleshing tools to scorch marks from cooking fires. Using this list, he examined bones from 76 sites and concluded that, at 38 sites, 286 people were eaten.

But why? Turner believes he found the answer in central Mexico, where cultures that used cannibalism in religious ceremonies had left similar evidence. "It takes nearly blind faith in the effectiveness of geographical distance ... to believe that this [culture] failed to reach the American Southwest," he writes in his 1999 book, Man Corn. Turner speculates that members of a Mexican warrior cult headed north, where they found that killing and eating a few desert-farming Anasazi terrorized everyone else into paying tribute and building monuments to the Mexicans' religion. Eventually, the culture built on cannibalism collapsed–how, Turner does not know–and the Anasazi deserted Chaco Canyon. Today's Pueblo people are Anasazi descendants.

Food for thought. Man Corn–named after the Aztec word for a sacred meal of human meat–provoked a firestorm. Critics have charged him with everything from shoddy science to racism. He countered with a widely distributed manuscript–rejected by American Antiquity–denouncing them as "professionally reckless," "politically correct," and "rude."

Turner's proposal that ancient Mexicans invaded from the south has aroused the most derision. "The idea of a [Mexican] goon squad is ridiculous," says Kurt Dongoske, an archaeologist for the Hopi tribe. While remnants of trade with Mexico exist–pottery, copper bells, and macaw skeletons–there's little evidence of Mexicans' living in the area at the time. Turner's theory hangs on one skull found with notched teeth, a practice common in Mexico but rare in the Southwest. "Turner stepped beyond his level of expertise," sniffs Steven LeBlanc, director of collections at Harvard's Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology.

Some archaeologists and Indians accuse Turner of recklessly ignoring native beliefs. "One of the worst things you can do in Pueblo society is to eat flesh," says Andrew Darling, an archaeologist with the Gila River Indian Community in Arizona. "That's how you become a witch, and the penalty for witches is death." Suspected Pueblo witches were killed and their corpses ravaged to find the so-called evil heart. Darling believes those actions could leave the same bone signature as cannibalism. He says Turner's theory revives racist stereotypes of savage Indians.

Other archaeologists point out that little is known about how the Anasazi normally treated their dead. Standard burial practices could have caused the skeletal damage ascribed to cannibalism. Ventura Perez, a doctoral student at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, found faint marks around the jaws of some of Turner's skulls. Perez suspects the marks are light because the skulls had been stripped long after the flesh had begun to decompose–suggesting that meat removal was a burial practice.

Peabody's LeBlanc thinks a more likely explanation is that the Chaco Anasazi brutalized a subclass of their own people. Healed bone fractures suggest that many Anasazi were beaten repeatedly. Others were dumped on garbage heaps after they died. And still others may be Turner's cannibal victims, butchered like game animals but not necessarily served for dinner.

Turner has his allies. Tim White, professor of human evolutionary studies at the University of California-Berkeley, compared broken, scarred, and scattered Anasazi and animal bones from Mancos Canyon in Colorado and discovered striking similarities. He dismisses the reburial theory, saying no other society uses the same method to prepare food and bury its dead. Even so, he refuses to speculate about who was behind the cannibalism. "It's too early," he says.

Fossil find. White and Turner thought they could prove that some people had cut up and cooked other people–but not that anyone was chewed and swallowed. Until two years ago, that is. A group of archaeologists working for Soil Systems Inc., an archaeological consulting firm, claims to have found the smoking gun. While excavating Colorado's Cowboy Wash, they unearthed fossilized fecal matter containing human remains, probably left by an attacker to desecrate an Anasazi hearth. Turner's critics say the ancient excrement could have come from anyone or anything, and, even if it is human, it only proves that a single person indulged in a taste for his fellows.

Nonetheless, there's a growing awareness among archaeologists that something awful happened among the Anasazi. Soon after abandoning Chaco, they began building cliff dwellings from which they could stave off almost any attack. But what were they afraid of? Each other?

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/mysteries/anasazi.htm

Posted by: DarmonVing Sep 14 2004, 09:22 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Sep 13 2004, 09:17 AM)
It would appear that the inhabitants were on the very tall side when you consider the size of the windows taken from the air. We might consider the height of the structures that were built with large and heavy stones. It would have taken men of great strength to hoist them up so high and position them. Just a guess.

The Anisazi were actually relatively small in stature BJ. The majority of them were about 5 feet tall.

QUOTE
Physically, the Pueblo Anasazi were short: 5'1" to 5'5" on average. The infant mortality rate was high at 33 percent and life expectancy was about 40 years. Corn ground in stone metates led to severe wearing of teeth. Babies were held down to cradle boards when born; the dead were often buried in a fetal position or placed in the midden if the ground was too hard in which to dig a grave. The Kayenta Pueblo did have several kivas at each alcove, thought to have been used for ceremonies and/or family gatherings.


http://www.nps.gov/nava/ana.htm

As for needing great strength to lift heavy stones, it is more of mind over matter and body than the use of physical strength. There are stones in many places that are so large that no men, no matter how how tall they were, could have possibly lifted them by using conventional means even with today's technology.

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 15 2004, 09:16 AM
Thanks, DarmonVing, for posting the size of the Anasazi. It would never have occurred to me that these men who built the cliff dwellings could possibly be only 5' tall! Simply amazing.

Here is an article I posted on Pupp's original post: "There were giants in the land...", which fits into this thread, and may be of interest for those who didn't read it there:


The following comes from Indian lore:

The Yosemite Valley, where the mummy was found has always been considered to be a place of great mystery by the Indians who lived there, the Ahwahneechees. The folklore of the Ahwahneechees relates a story of a giant who came into the valley long before the white man arrived.

The giant's name was Oo-el-en. They were vicious giants for they liked to eat the meat of the Indians. Oo-el-en would catch the adults and carry them away to a hiding place near the foot of Cascade Falls. Oo-el-en would then cut the people into small pieces, hanging their meat in the sun to dry into jerky.

(It's too bad there isn't a date attached to this article. We could know whether it was the white man who finally drove these giants underground, or whether the Indians banded together to fight them.)

BJ

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 15 2004, 10:42 AM
While googling for more than theories regarding the Oo-el-en, I stumbled on to this:

MAN (?) and DINOSAURS TOGETHER

One of many human footprints contemporary with dinosaurs taken from the Paluxy River located in Dinosaur Park near Glen Rose, Texas. Pictured with my foot, it exceeds 45 cm (18 inches) in length. The cross-sectional cuts determined through compression studies that it was a woman's footprint. Estimates indicate her stature approximately 305 cm (10 feet) and 454 kg (1,000 lbs).......(Website gone for pic.)

Doctor Hilton Hinderliter of Apollo Campus, Pennsylvania State University studied the evidence presented at the Glen Rose, Texas excavations and stated: "I would have to say that the belief in evolution is in a state of terminal illness but its death will only be admitted by a new generation of scientists whose minds have not been prejudiced by the type of education now prevalent in the nation's public schools, an education which starts with the belief that evolution has happened, which interprets all evidence according to that faith and which simply discards any evidence which cannot be fitted into the evolutionary framework" (Quoted from "Dinosaurs" by Dr. Carl E. Baugh, 1987. Promise Publishing Co., Orange, CA 92667. )

http://www.cabiz.net/heartlink/giants.htm

BJ


Posted by: Mark Sep 15 2004, 01:35 PM
Darmon Ving, thanks so much for providing the height of the Anasazi. I figured they were of short stature and were at war with the giants.

I watched a show on Discovery Science channel yesterday that was showing Lake Titicaca and Teotihuacan (sp) and the stone walls that they built were impressive and no doubt they were at war with another people.

Though mainstream science still tries to claim that the ancient cities were built in A.D., new studies are coming forward that suggest these cities were built more than 10,000 years ago and are connected to Egypt.

(Remember the egyptian mummies who have been found with cocaine and tobacco in their bodies? Cocaine and tobacco were ONLY grown in the Americas thousands of years ago.)

I believe the offspring of the giants are still with us.... just a little shorter now.

No doubt many of those giants were cannibals, could that tie in with the blood drinkers of today? Satanists/vampires?

Here's some ancient footprints of giants (Sasquatch or human?).

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Posted by: Seralia Sep 17 2004, 08:25 PM
QUOTE
Pictured with my foot, it exceeds 45 cm (18 inches) in length. The cross-sectional cuts determined through compression studies that it was a woman's footprint. Estimates indicate her stature approximately 305 cm (10 feet) and 454 kg (1,000 lbs).......(Website gone for pic.)


Here is a site with an interactive image of one of the prints.

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-3b-java.htm

It looks more like a bigfoot track than a human print.

More information here about fossilized human prints:

http://www.subversiveelement.com/FossilizedHumanFootprints.html

http://www.evolution-facts.org/2evlch18b.htm

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ANCIENT DINOSAUR DEPICTIONS ON STONE

http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm

Inca Peru Burial stones.

http://www.omniology.com/IcaPeruDinoArt.html

Posted by: Seralia Sep 17 2004, 08:41 PM
Here are some ancient ceramic dinosaurs:

THE DINOSAURS OF ACAMBARO

http://www.omniology.com/3-Ceramic-Dinos.html

Posted by: Mark Sep 17 2004, 10:00 PM
I just read the link on
THE DINOSAURS OF ACAMBARO
http://www.omniology.com/3-Ceramic-Dinos.html

Fascinating find - thank you!

It sort of reminds me of the Ica Stones of Peru

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http://www.labyrinthina.com


I don't believe these are hoaxes.


Posted by: Seralia Sep 19 2004, 08:02 PM
I don't think those stones are a hoax either PuPP and they are very similar in style to Aborignal artwork in Australia. In fact, to my surprise, the Australian Aboriginies did have knowledge of dinosaurs.

Dinosaurs Hunted by Aboriginals

QUOTE
When Did Dinosaurs Really Become Extinct

If man and dinosaur were indeed contemoraneous somewhere on the planet in the dim past we are faced with the problem of how to reshape our thinking. For either the age of the extinction of these beasts must be bought forward to the known period of man's appearance on this earth, or else the age of man must be pushed back to the period of the great Saurians. Either explanation is unthinkable to the scientists.

Aboriginal Folklore {Giant Reptiles}

Whatever the thoughts on this matter our own Australian Aborigines also posses a number of equally fantastic legends of gigantic reptillian beasts whose descriptions and habits told for thousands of years would fit the exact description of monsters known only to scientific textbooks of Palaeontologists. According to the folklore of the former tribes of the area around Lake Alexandrina, South Australia, there once lived back in the Dream Time a giant reptillian beast which was taller than the trees and which a great hunter named Wyungare killed by spearing the creature. The monster was said to have moved quickly upon its hind legs whose feet possessed great claws. Its two front legs were too small to be useful and its had a fearsome head with sharp teeth. Whether the mysterious monster was a creature similar to Tyrannosaurus or whether the Aborigines merely confused some reptile with the giant kangaroos of the Pleistocene period is debatable.

Central Australian Folklore {Kulta}

However there was something even more remarkable about the description of Kulta, the giant serpent that had lived according to Central Australian Aboriginal folklore, in the swamps and water courses of the far north when all the land of that part of Australia was a lush jungle and swamp covered region. Kulta it was said had a small head at the end of along narrow neck, which was attached to an enormously bulky body supported by four great legs. He moved about the swamps and landscape trailing along pointed tail behind him. Kulta was so long that if he were to enter a forest his head would protrude from one end and his tail from the other.

Kulta's food so the legends say consisted of plant life in the forests and swamps. All the natives feared Kulta whom they regarded with great awe. Whenever Kulta moved about the countryside the ground shook with his tremendous weight. Unfortunately there came a time when all the land dried up, the forests turned to desert, the swamps emptied and Kulta died. If the apperance of Kulta as described in the ancient folklore of the Central Australian tribes is correct then Kulta could best be described as a member of the Sauropoda, that family of Triassic reptillia which contained the best known dinosaurs, ie the Brontosaurus, Diplodocus, Camerosaurus, and others.

Groote Eylandt {Gulf Of Carpentaria}

Among the tribes of Groote Eylandt in the Gulf of Carpentaria there were, or still are, widespread myths which describe huge reptillian creatures including lizards, even snakes, all of whom lived in waterholes. The Aborigines were afraid to approach these waterholes for fear of the beasts and always performed ceremonies in the hope of pleasing these monsters so that they might be safe to go near the watercourses. On Groote Eylandt there lived a "Gecko" called Ipilya who was 100 yards long. His appearance was much like that of Kulta and he was reputed to live in the Numarika swamp. The Aborigines associated him with thunder and the monsoonal rain because of this fearsome creatures voice.

Bunyip {Wanambi}

Another "impossible" was the Bunyip of the far north of Australia known as Wanambi. Now, I know that the Bunyip was known across Australia and that it often took on the guise of several animals in one. However even the extinct giant marsupial Diprotodon was regarded as the Bunyip in some areas, and also the crocodile. The 'bunyip' Wanambi was regarded like the Diprotodon as a single animal, and a very real one. Of that the tribesmen were adamant.

Wanambi had the same features as Ipilya and Kulta with his long neck and tail, bulky body and four large legs with which he waded about in the swamps and moved about on the land. he was described as a giant snake by the tribespeople, but then what snake ever walked about on four legs? However Wanambi differed slightly from Ipilya and Kulta in that he possessed a mane extending down his back, somewhat like the sail-backed forms of the dinosaurs, and was highly coloured. There exist to this day Aboriginal cave paintings in the far north of Wanambi to support these conclusions


http://www.internetezy.com.au/~mj129/strangephenomenonk.html

QUOTE
There is an aboriginal legend of a frightening creature called the Burrunjor. The Burrunjor is said to be bipedal and have 2 short, almost useless arms - a good description of a carnivorous theropod.

    Some have suggested that the giant 30-foot monitor lizard Megalania is responsible for the Burrunjor legends, as monitors sometimes run on their hind legs. But this ignores the little arms, and is therefore invalid.


QUOTE
The Kulta

    The Kulta is a creature in Aboriginal legends described as a long-necked animal with a long tail and

four legs. The Kulta lived in swamps and ate plants. Unfortunately, the Aborigines say that the swamps

dried up and all the Kultas died. The interior of Australia is now desert, of course.

    The Kulta sounds a lot like a sauropod dinosaur. Obviously, the creatures are extinct, as there are not

many swamps in central Australia anymore!

The Gauarge

    The Gauarge is said to be a semi-aquatic animal that looks like a featherless Emu. The Gauarge is said to drag into a whirlpool anyone who bathes in its water hole.

    The description is not unlike the “Bird-mimic” dinosaurs (Struthiomimus, Gallimimus, Ornithomimus etc.), except for the semi-aquatic habitat. But could the semi-aquatic lifestyle be an invention several hundred years after the creature died out?


http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/megaraptor/living_dinosaurs_worldwide.htm


Posted by: Mark Sep 20 2004, 09:59 PM
Hey Seralia, it sure looks like history books need to be re-written.

I believe this is a photo from U.S. Civil War Era

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This was also in my image archives, I cannot recall where it was from.

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Japanese fisherman pulled this up and after photos were taken the rotting stinking carcass was thrown overboard.

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So-called experts that tow the party line of current history claim it was a basking (sp) shark.

Others say it is a plesiosaurus (sp) or another supposedly extinct animal.


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Posted by: Mark Sep 22 2004, 08:52 PM
I just came across this over at GLP.

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ALIEN MUMMY FOUND IN BRAZIL?
Wilson Estanovic Neto, curator and owner of "the Wilson Estanovic Museum if Natural History in Uberaba," a city in western Minas Gerais state in Brazil, "said that the museum, circus and theater, originally operated by his ancestor, has covered all the countries in the world. In their travels, they (the Estanovic family) has managed to obtain--through donations--artifacts, ruins and stones of all kinds which fall from space, as well as other startling items."

"A strange piece" has drawn the attention of Planeta Terra, a South American Fortean research group. It is "a rather different mummified skull, similar to an alien-- large-headed, earless, with odd-shaped eyes and mouth. All of these characteristics were highlighted by experts" in extraterrestrial subjects.

"Museum administrators claim to know the provenance of the skeleton, which was discovered only recently when they tried to ´de-mummify´ the piece, which was probably acquired in Egypt. The specimen is on display at the museum only on Sundays and under guard."

"According to the owner, at least ten attempts to steal the item have been made."

"The skull is about twice the size of an adult human skull and is out of proportion in relation to the rest of the body, which measures approximately 50 centimeters (20 inches). The six-toed foot is also mummified."


Uberaba is 210 kilometers (126 miles) west of Belo Horizonte, the state capital of Minas Gerais and 300 kilometers (180 miles) south of Brasilia, the national capital.

Commenting on this case, UFO Roundup correspondent Brunilda Barros said, "I´m not so sure this mummy is from Egypt. Uberaba is only 50 kilometers (30 miles) east of the headwaters of the Rio da Prata. The Kayapo Indians might have acquired this strange mummy from the hidden city of Matalir-Aconcagua in the Planalto (jungles of Mato Grosso do Sul state--J.T.) and then sold it to Senhor Estevanovic´s ancestors." (See Planeta Terra for September 15, 2004. Muito obrigado a Scott Corrales e Andreia Xavier por eso caso.)

(Editor´s Note: Matalir-Aconcagua is a reputed hidden city in Mato Grosso do Sul, still thriving millenia after the demise of the lost continent of Atlantis. Colonel Percy H. Fawcett, his son Jack and Raleigh Rimmell vanished in the Mato Grosso back in 1925 while searching for it.)


Found in Australia
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Here's some larger images of the top photo in this post - click to view them.

http://planeta.terra.com.br/noticias/mr_ufo/not1/alien-uberaba-1.jpg

http://planeta.terra.com.br/noticias/mr_ufo/not1/alien-uberaba-2.jpg

http://planeta.terra.com.br/noticias/mr_ufo/not1/alien-uberaba-3.jpg

http://planeta.terra.com.br/noticias/mr_ufo/not1/alien-uberaba-5.jpg

Full text and more photos can be found at http://planeta.terra.com.br/noticias/mr_ufo/alienuber.htm
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It almost looks like two heads melded together, perhaps just a birth defect?

Posted by: Seralia Sep 23 2004, 09:21 PM
Yes our history books really do need to be rewritten PuPP. As we further our explorations of the world, which has not been thoroughly explored, we will find more things that we once thought were extinct. There are still accounts of people seeing winged reptiles and dinosaur-like creatures and a number of prehistoric fish and other marine creatures have also been found lurking in the oceans as they have done for millions of years. And man has been in the Americas for a much longer period of time than anyone can really comprehend. Perhaps 20,000 years or more though I have heard a few stories of Neanderthal related artifacts being found in parts of New England which would push back the date of human occupation even farther if such stories were true.

This is a wonderful story about the first of the over 10,000 year old sites that were discovered not in Alaska but on the east coast of America. In this case, history definitely needs to be rewritten.

Cover Story 10/12/98

Rediscovering America

The New World may be 20,000 years older than experts thought

BY CHARLES W. PETIT

Late in the afternoon last May 17, a tired archaeological team neared the end of a 14-hour day winching muck to the deck of a Canadian Coast Guard vessel. It was in water 170 feet deep in Juan Perez Sound, half a mile offshore among British Columbia's Queen Charlotte Islands. For four days, team members had fruitlessly sieved undersea mud and gravel. Then, in the slanting light of sunset, a deckhand drew from the goop a triangular blade of dark basalt. Its sharp edge and flaked surface said this was no ordinary rock. Someone long ago sculpted it into a knife or other cutting tool.

When Daryl Fedje, an archaeologist for Canada's national parks system, saw the 4-inch artifact, his jaw dropped in amazement: "I immediately recognized it as made by humans." For years Fedje has led efforts to find prehistoric evidence of human occupation in the misty, fiord-laced archipelago. This stone meant that people lived at a spot directly under the ship well before the end of the Ice Age, at a time when the sea level was far lower than today.

The bit of basalt is just one stone. But from Alaska to near the tip of South America, bits of just such intriguing evidence are emerging that suggest the standard textbook story--that humans first settled the Americas by pouring down from Alaska about 12,000 years ago--is wrong, perhaps very wrong. People may have gotten here thousands to tens of thousands of years sooner, over a longer period of time, by a wider variety of routes, and with a more diverse ancestry. If this proves true, it will force a rethinking of the whole concept of America: a land whose human history may be three times longer than imagined, and one where Columbus would have been just one of the last of many waves of "discoverers."

"The bottom line is that people could have reached here a long, long time ago," says Dennis Stanford, chairman of the anthropology department at the Smithsonian Institution. Stanford is among a growing number of scientists advancing the still heretical belief that the first North Americans did not walk over in one main migration but came much earlier, and by boat. Under fire is the time-honored "Clovis-first" theory, named after a site in New Mexico where big, stone spear points were found in the 1930s (story, Page 60). The artifacts were left by a mammoth-hunting culture that appeared in North America a little more than 11,000 years ago. The Clovis people were real, but the standard textbook lessons about them may well be wrong. It now appears that they were not the first in the New World. "I think we're in a whole new ballgame of discovery about who the first Americans were and when they got here," Stanford says.

That would spell the end of the heroic saga generations of schoolchildren have learned--of a great invasion of big-game hunters showing up on a virgin landscape. The peopling of the Americas is beginning to look more like a continuation of another, even grander, saga: the human occupation of the Old World that started perhaps 100,000 years ago. The peopling of Europe and Asia was an expansion featuring multiple migrations and an ebb and flow of cultures that, it now appears, may have washed into the Americas in a series of waves starting well before Clovis times, perhaps as early as 30,000 years ago.

Scholarly rejection. Despite the primacy of the Clovis-first tale, some scientists never could quite embrace it. Over the years, hundreds of sites have been touted as older than the 11,200-year-old early Clovis sites, including Calico in San Bernardino County, Calif., endorsed in the 1960s by famed African anthropologist Louis Leakey as possibly more than 200,000 years old. But each time, at Calico and elsewhere, parades of outside experts said the "tools" were natural stones, or the dates were wrong, or supposedly human bones weren't human, or the charcoal was from a naturally caused wildfire, not a man-made hearth, or all that and more. The sites "have gotten their 15 minutes of fame, then disappeared into obscurity," said James Adovasio, professor of archaeology at Mercyhurst College in Erie, Pa.

Adovasio has his own tale of scholarly rejection. Since 1973 he has led excavation of the Meadowcroft Rockshelter, a 43-foot-high jutting cliff that provides protection from rain along its base. It looks out on Cross Creek, in rugged country 30 miles southwest of Pittsburgh. The landowner, Albert Miller, whose family has had the property since 1795 and operates a colonial-era museum there, called archaeologists in the early 1970s to investigate his hunch about Indian traces under the overhang. Miller's instincts were right. "Everybody and his brother stopped here," marvels Adovasio. Using razor blades to peel layers away, his crews have uncovered a rich trove of relics--20,000 stone tools, woven goods, nearly a million animal bones, and 300 fireplaces loaded with charcoal, making it easy for scientists to calculate dates. (Scientists estimate the age of charcoal and other organic material by measuring how much radioactive carbon-14 it contains. Living things absorb this isotope from the atmosphere; when they die, the radiocarbon begins to decay away. Although new studies suggest that solar variations throw the scale off slightly--11,000 radiocarbon years may be closer to 13,000 actual years, for instance--radiocarbon dating is still the gold standard for archaeological dating.) The cave was on a highway for traders, hunters, and migrants moving to and from the Ohio River Valley to the West. "If you were out camping and saw this place, this is where you'd stop, too," Adovasio says. Every accepted cultural period in Indian history and prehistory is represented: the contemporary Iroquoian Seneca; earlier and closely related "woodland" societies that reach back 1,000 years; the so-called archaic groups to around 8,500 years ago; and Paleo-Indians, including the Clovis big-game hunters, to about 11,000 years ago.

Trouble came when Adovasio began saying in the late 1970s that charcoal from human-made fire pits deep in the excavated floor of the shelter carried dates going back more than 14,000 years, with some indications approaching 17,000 years. He ran into what he calls the "Clovis curtain" of resistance. Critics told him the charcoal that he presumed came from wood may actually have been contaminated by ancient coal or carbon in the local sediments, which would carbon-date much earlier. Adovasio retorts that what he calls the "Clovis mafia" peculiarly rejects only dates at his site that are older than Clovis but not younger material. Contamination would skew ages for everything, he points out, not just for the finds that run counter to standard theory.

Accumulating evidence. But after years of being almost alone as a challenger of Clovis, Adovasio suddenly has company. Similar deposits are being reported by archaeologists at sites throughout the Americas, including one called Cactus Hill, in coastal Virginia. That project's leader, Joseph McAvoy of the privately supported Nottaway River Survey in Sandston, Va., can't discuss his newest findings because he's under a gag order from the National Geographic Society, which is helping pay for the excavation. But in a 1996 report, McAvoy described his discovery of possible pre-Clovis tools that Adovasio says look a lot like his at Meadowcroft.

Evidence also has shown up in Wisconsin. For 10 years, David Overstreet, director of the Great Lakes Archaeological Research Center in Milwaukee, has excavated two mammoth butchery sites that he says are at least 12,500 years old, and where stone tools lie among giant bones and long, curved ivory tusks. Nearby are bones of two more of the extinct elephants, 1,000 years older, bearing what appear to be the distinctive cut marks made by people chopping out meat for food. The roughly shaped tools look nothing like the precisely grooved Clovis points. Overstreet figures that by the time any corridor through the glaciers opened, somebody had already been living for a few millenniums along the ice front, hunting the megafauna of the plains south of it.

But the big break that persuaded many to rethink the conventional theory has come thousands of miles from Clovis in Monte Verde, Chile. There, archaeologist Tom Dillehay of the University of Kentucky has, for 20 years, been excavating wood, bone, and stone tools from rolling pasture land. Last year he was joined by a blue-ribbon group of archaeologists, including many who were skeptical of Dillehay's long-controversial assertions that the artifacts probably are at least 12,500 years old. The expert panel viewed the site and wound up agreeing with Dillehay: The tools bore no resemblance to those of the vanished Clovis culture. Dillehay and his Chilean colleagues now are planning more excavation to explore hints that people were at the site as many as 30,000 years ago.

Some scientists say one needs only to study modern Indians to conclude that their ancestors got here before Clovis time. One hint is in genetic material passed down only from mothers to offspring, called mitochondrial DNA. Such genes carry a molecular clock--if a single population splits into isolated groups, the buildup of random, but distinct, mutations allows geneticists to estimate how long the original groupings have been separated. "For the last five years, the genetic evidence has been saying early, early entry" into the Americas, says Theodore Schurr, a geneticist at Emory University in Atlanta. When Schurr counts the mutations accumulated among American Indians, the molecular data are consistent with departures from Asia between 15,000 and 30,000 years ago. The analysis revealed three distinct families of mutations common among American Indians and found elsewhere only in Siberia or Mongolia. Strangely, about 3 percent of Native Americans also have a genetic trait that occurs elsewhere only in a few places in Europe. This could mean either that some Asian populations migrated both west, into Europe, and east to the Americas, or that Ice Age Europeans may have trickled into the New World many thousands of years ago, perhaps by skirting the Arctic ice pack over the North Atlantic.

Linguists offer a remarkably parallel analysis. Johanna Nichols, a professor in the Slavic languages department of the University of California--Berkeley, counts 143 Native American language stocks from Alaska to the tip of South America that are completely unintelligible to one another, as different as Gaelic, Chinese, or Persian are from one another. The richest diversity of languages is along North America's Pacific coast, not along the Clovis group's supposed inland immigration route. California alone has dozens of dissimilar languages.

It takes about 6,000 years for two languages to split from a common ancestral tongue and lose all resemblance to each other, Nichols says. Allowing for how fast peoples tend to subdivide and migrate, she calculates that 60,000 years are needed for 140 languages to emerge from a single founding group. Even assuming multiple migrations of people using different languages, she figures that people first showed up in the Americas at least 35,000 years ago. If archaeologists haven't found proof of such ancient events, well, "as a linguist, that's not my problem," Nichols shrugs. Clovis-first, she says, is "not remotely possible."

The glacier highway. Even some geologists are taking a punch at Clovis primacy. "Recent work shows that the corridor [through the glaciers] was not open until 11,500 years ago," says Carole Mandryk, a geologist at Harvard University. "That is a pretty major problem for ideas that it was a highway for colonization within a few centuries." Mandryk's studies indicate the corridor would have been nearly impassable for a century or more, with little game or edible vegetation, and vast, boggy wetlands. "The corridor is 2,000 miles long," Mandryk says. "Let's say you are two young guys, and you carry as much food as you can, and you walk as fast as you can. It still takes you six months to get through. And then you run around and kill a lot of animals. Then you have to go back and tell everybody else to get their families and come on down." She blames the persistence of the Clovis-first theory on these "macho gringo guys" who "just want to believe the first Americans were these big, tough, fur-covered, mammoth-hunting people, not some fishermen over on the coast."

Just this summer, one longtime Clovis-firster abandoned the idea. For years, Albert Goodyear, associate director for research at the South Carolina Institute of Archaeology, has calmly supported Clovis. Monte Verde shook him just a bit. So in July, along the Savannah River at a site called Topper, he decided, just to be responsible, to keep digging below sediments dated to the Clovis era. All of a sudden, "we found a tool, and then another." For a solid yard down, scores of blades, flakes, and other human-crafted artifacts turned up. Goodyear told students and volunteers, yes, those sure look older than Clovis. "I had a paradigm crash right there in the woods. I felt like Woody Allen, like I had to turn and say to the audience, 'Why am I saying these things I'm not supposed to believe?' Just five years ago, nothing new was possible in American prehistory, because of dogma. Now everything is possible; the veil has been lifted."

Finds such as Goodyear's are cause for celebration among long-suffering Clovis doubters. "The Clovis-first model is dead," proclaims, with some overstatement, Robson Bonnichsen, director of the Center for the Study of the First Americans at Oregon State University. He has made the center a clearinghouse for information about alternatives to Clovis-first. "I've felt there were people here more than 12,000 years ago from the start," he says. "We're finally getting the evidence to back that up."

But not all Clovis-firsters are throwing in the towel. "I find Monte Verde quite unconvincing," says Frederick Hadleigh West, director of archaeology at the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, Mass., and editor of a recent 576-page compendium on the archaeology of Alaska and eastern Siberia. "There is really no credible, undisputable evidence of anything prior to Clovis. But with Clovis you have an undeniable outburst of people, appearing on an empty continent, spreading like mad. There is absolutely no [incontrovertible] evidence of people coming into the New World before 12,000 [years ago], or 15,000 if you keep them in Alaska." For Monte Verde to unseat Clovis-first, he said, "would be like Sudan conquering the United States."

Not enough stuff. Another longtime Clovis-first adherent, geoarchaeologist Vance Haynes of the University of Arizona, was among the experts who last year endorsed the 12,500-year-old Monte Verde finds as legitimate. But he argues there isn't enough evidence to support the Meadowcroft and Cactus Hill material. And even if he can't rule out Monte Verde, Haynes says it should take more than one site--scientific fallibility being what it is--to refute the primacy of Clovis. "It has just six artifacts [stone tools]. If it is as old as it looks, and the dates do look solid, then there should be others like it. Until we find those, there are still questions."

Those questions are profound. The Clovis people were real, but where did they come from? No tools in Alaska or Asia seem to foreshadow their distinctive fluted spear points. And how and when did people get to South America? Many authorities believe it would have taken people 7,000 years to have reached southern Chile from Alaska. Others say it could have been faster by boat. But the fact remains that while Clovis traces are abundant, evidence of older cultures is terribly hard to find. "Where are they?" asks David Meltzer, an archaeologist at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, who thinks the Monte Verde dates are accurate but remains puzzled. "I don't know. That is the exciting part about all this."

No single, simple theory has yet emerged to replace Clovis-first. But some of the stories that are emerging in attempts to answer those questions are as arresting as the original Bering land bridge and inland invasion saga. For one, there's the mystery of the people who chipped that basalt point Daryl Fedje's team found this spring off Canada's Pacific shore.

The recovery of the tool was no random plunk with a bucket into the sea floor. Fedje and marine geologist Heiner Josenhans of the Geological Survey of Canada spent four years mapping the sea floor around the Queen Charlotte Islands. An array of sonar receivers revealed it as though it were viewed from a low-flying plane without any distortion from water; computer software let the researchers soar and loop low at will, as in a video game, among now-submerged valleys and hills. Fedje knew that if people were here more than about 10,000 years ago, they lived on that farther shore, near salmon, seals, shellfish, and other key food sources. Tribal lore of the present-day Haida nation includes tales of times when the islands were far larger and surrounded by grassy plains, and of subsequent, fast-rising oceans when a supernatural "flood tide woman" forced the Haida to move their villages to higher ground. Geologists agree with the traditional Haida view of their past: The islands were twice as large 11,000 years ago, and the Pacific rose more than an inch per year for a millennium after that, as the glaciers melted. The Haida have been on the islands, which they call Haida Gwaii, a very long time. Whether it was their ancestors who left the stone point is unknown. Fedje and Josenhans are now poring over the maps of the vanished landscape, hoping to return in the next year or so, if they get the funding, with remotely controlled submarines to prowl the places some of the earliest Americans may have called home.

But the origins of these coastal people remain a mystery. It seems unlikely that Clovis hunters could have scampered west along the ice sheet's southern edge, transformed themselves into a seagoing, salmon-catching, seal-spearing culture, and occupied Haida Gwaii within a few centuries of arrival. Hence the favorite hypothesis, first proposed more than 20 years ago but now supported by the Smithsonian's Stanford, Harvard's Mandryk, Fedje, and many others, is that many people migrated to the New World along the coast instead of overland. Travel may have been in small boats, perhaps covered in skin like traditional Eskimo and Aleut kayaks. If, as seems likely, people migrated during the height of the last Ice Age, between about 25,000 and 12,000 years ago, they would have avoided glaciers calving into the sea. "There was boat use in Japan 20,000 years ago," says Jon Erlandson, a University of Oregon anthropologist. "The Kurile Islands [north of Japan] are like steppingstones to Beringia," the then continuous land bridging the Bering Strait. Migrants, he said, could have then skirted the tidewater glaciers in Canada right on down the coast.

Evidence of other maritime cultures along the West Coast is coming in fast. Erlandson has uncovered remains of seagoing peoples who lived more than 10,000 years ago in the Channel Islands off Southern California. And last month, other scientists reported that two sites in Peru reveal people were living along its coast, subsisting almost entirely on seafood, nearly 11,000 years ago, too long ago for the Clovis migration to have gotten there and spawned a maritime way of life.

The Americas are big continents. Perhaps the earliest people just weren't very numerous and left little mark of their passing. Or, maybe most of them lived out on the then exposed continental shelf, retreating inland only when the end of the Ice Age raised the sea. Perhaps these people, driven inland, gave rise to the Clovis hunters. Well below the waves and under millenniums' worth of cold sediment, may lie the footprints, remains of meals, and discarded tools and campfire pits of a lost world. It is, indeed, a whole new ballgame in the search for the first Americans.

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/petit.htm

Posted by: Seralia Sep 23 2004, 10:16 PM
I did a little google search to see if I could find any information about alien mummies and yes some unusual mummies were discovered but nothing like those Australian or Brazilian mummies.

user posted image

QUOTE
The picture on this page was discovered by us recently in a book called 'Life and Death of a Pharaoh - Tutankhamen' by Christiane Desroches-Noblecourt, published by World Books in 1963. It is allegedly of a seven or eight month old unborn child, but certainly looks very different to that in our opinion. For instance, look at the length of the fingers! they are extremely long, unlike those of an infant just about to be born, or an adult human for that matter. Also look at the shape of the head and the large eyes... are you getting the picture yet?
The paragraph that accompanies the picture reads as follows: 'Two small coffins, bearing Tutankhamen's name and laid head to foot and side by side in a plain chest, contained the mummies of two seven or eight month foetuses, one of them probably female (pictured). It does not seem possible that in the midst of such a special collection of objects a place should have been set aside for two supposedly still-born children of Tutenkhamen and Ankhesenamun.

Why should such royal children, dying before their father, be buried in his tomb? There is nothing to confirm or to invalidate such a hypothesis, but the pattern of the archaic delta ritual invites one to consider the little mummies as the equivalents of the two placental (khonsu) images in Horemheb's tomb, which contained remnants of burial furnishings specifically connected with the delta ritual, as did the ravaged tombs of Amenophis II and Tuthmosis IV.'


http://ufocasebook.com/alienkingtut.html

QUOTE
What you are about to see is something you have NEVER heard of. EVER. What you haven't been told is that when the boy king Tutankhamun's mummy was unearthed by Howard Carter and his team back in the 1920's, there was buried, along with all of the priceless gold artifacts, 2 "baby" mummies? And ONE of these mummies is an ALIEN GREY!
 
I won't tell you which one, because I don't want to insult your intelligence. You can see for yourself. The odd thing is, that in the "video", the HUMAN "fetus" (as it was called) was stated to be a fully developed fetus. The ALIEN "fetus" (as it WASN'T called) was said to be 5 months premature, it's (and I quote) "skull plates have not yet grown together".
 
Well, here's MY question? How, when a separate ruler was laid beside EACH "fetus", can a 5 month pre-mature "fetus" be nearly 4 (FOUR!) inches longer than a fully developed "fetus"?
 
They took 2 (TWO) different shots of the fetuses, and placed the PICTURES side-by-side, ENLARGING THE HUMAN FETUS so that it would appear closer in size to the ALIEN fetus. Close examination of the RULERS tells the true length


http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/alien_mummy.htm

This is another unusual egyptian mummy.

user posted image

QUOTE
Unidentified Woman (Younger Woman) (Nefertiti? Sitamun?) (c. 1350?-1334? B.C.)
18'th Dynasty?
Provenance: KV 35
Discovery Date: March 9'th, 1898, by Victor Loret


http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages2/UnidentifiedandMissing.htm


And this one is supposed to be Tutmosis III. He also had a big head.

user posted image

http://members.tripod.com/anubis4_2000/mummypages1/Aeighteen.htm

Posted by: Seralia Sep 24 2004, 07:14 PM
The mummies with the unusual heads are from the 18th dynasty, 1352-1336 B.C., as far as I can tell. I'm not exactly positive, but I believe that one of them was positively identified as Nefertiti. She apparently wore the head piece to hide her unusually shaped skull.

user posted imageuser posted image

One of the Martian images supposedly shows an image of a woman wearing a similar head piece that some people say is Nefertiti but I doubt that it is since Mars was supposedly rendered incapable of supporting life over a million years ago and Nefertiti had lived around 1300 BC. Of course I really don't trust NASA in telling us anything about what they've found out about Mars so there could have quite possibly been life there more recently and life that still might be there if it is true that they have detected methane gas.

user posted image

They also claim that this image shows an alien grey so apparently aliens were a lot more visible in ancient times than they are now.

user posted image



Posted by: Mark Sep 24 2004, 07:39 PM
Hey Seralia, in my opening post of this thread I have an image of a bust from Cairo, not sure if it's Nefertiti (sp) or not but she sure did have an elongated skull.


In regards to your last image, it's not an alien, I recall it's a blurry image of a vase.

I may have a better/clearer image in my archives, I have to check.

Posted by: Seralia Sep 24 2004, 07:58 PM
Akhenaten was the ruler in the 18th dynasty and this is his skull. It does seem to show some elongation of the cranial cavity but not as much as his daughters had.
user posted image

These are two of his daughters BTW.

user posted image[user posted image

These figurines are from the 5th millenium BC and have elonged heads and oddly shaped eyes similar to the mummy of Tutankhamen's daughter.

user posted imageuser posted image

Posted by: Seralia Sep 24 2004, 08:08 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Sep 24 2004, 07:39 PM)
In regards to your last image, it's not an alien, I recall it's a blurry image of a vase.

I may have a better/clearer image in my archives, I have to check.

I think I did hear something about the alien looking image being a vase PuPP but some of the other egyptian artwork does appear to show representations of aliens so it could be a vase in the shape of an alien head. wink.gif If Zahi Hawass can show me a vase even remotely similar to that then I'll call it a vase.

Posted by: Seralia Sep 24 2004, 08:12 PM
OK it's officially a vase. rolleyes.gif

user posted image


Posted by: Mark Sep 24 2004, 08:51 PM
Wow, more skull images! I'm saving them all. Thank You!

Yes Seralia, that's the CLEARER vase image I was referring to, I checked my file archives but I didn't save it cause it wasn't important to me at the time.

Remember the old TOP hats in early America?

I often wondered if there was a reason for such a high hat, and that maybe someone was trying to hide their elongated skull while in public.

They may be the good guys, but I really don't have any evidence except for how the natives worshipped them and emulated their skulls via head binding.

I think our biggest threat is those we watch on tv who spew lies and deceptions and entertain us while they rape the earth and turn it into a toxic waste dump.

Posted by: Seralia Sep 24 2004, 09:25 PM
I never thought about the fashion trend of the wearing of top hats in the 1800's as being used to hide the elongated heads but it seems to me that it was often the rich people who had worn them, with some of them being of royal blood. Of course interbreeding with normal humans would have most likely made the size of their skulls smaller. As to when they first appeared, it's difficult to tell but their sudden appearance in Egypt during the 18th dynasty is interesting. Of course they could have arrived much earlier but tracking down mummies or even skeletons from the earlier dynasties is quite difficult. A lot of mummies were destroyed over the last few hundred years so it is difficult to tell how much of the population of Egypt had the larger skulls.

It seems that Akhenaten and his wife Nefertiti just showed up in Egypt and took it over. They had six daughters but I don't have very much information on them but they all had elongated skulls like their parents.

Posted by: Seralia Sep 24 2004, 09:33 PM
It seems that one of their daughters married Tutankhamen.

QUOTE
Meriaten was Akhenaten's eldest daughter. She was married to Smenkhkare. Smenkhkare was his chosen sucessor who could possibly be his brother.

Mekhetaten was the second daughter. She was born sick and died around the 12th year of Akhenaten's reign as pharaoh. Possibly there is an unfinished statue of her in her father's lap in the Cairo Museum.

Anksenpaaten was the third daughter of Nefertiti and Akhenaten. She was married to the famous king, Tutankhamen. Whom she was several years older. Due to the findings in Tutankhamen's tomb, she had a pleasure-content life. She changed her name to Ankhesenamun when the old religion was regained. She dissapears from history shortly after the death of her husband. It has been suggested that she was married to Aye the vizier on evidence of a small faience ring that was found to contain the cartouche of Ankhsenamun right next to that of Aye who became the next King.

The fourth daughter was sent to Babylonia or Mittany as a wife for a prince.


http://www.expage.com/nefertitisdaughters

Posted by: Seralia Sep 24 2004, 10:50 PM
Oh I forgot about this one. Ankhesenamun was Tutankhamen's sister. blink.gif

QUOTE
When Ankhesenamun was 13, she was married to her brother, Tutankhamun. Ankhesenamun was married to another husband before the marriage with Tutankhamun. She was married for only one to three years,with Smenkhare.


http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Ankhesenamun

Would you believe that Ankhesenamun was Tutankhamun's half sister and Nefertiti was not Tutankhamun's mother. Tutankhamun's mother was a woman named Kiya.

Tutankhamun

QUOTE
Noteworthy relatives: Akhenaten (father), Kiya (mother), Nefertiti (stepmother/mother-in-law), Ankhesenamun (half-sister/wife), Smenkhkare (brother).


Smenkhare was her brother too. huh.gif

http://www.neferchichi.com/tutankhamun.html

Unfortunately I really haven't been able to find any statues of her but I did manage to find an image of another one of Akhenaten's daughters.


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/6954/baby.gif

Posted by: Seralia Sep 24 2004, 11:22 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Sep 24 2004, 08:51 PM)
Wow, more skull images! I'm saving them all. Thank You!

I just edited that post because I forgot to include two of the images. rolleyes.gif
I got a little bit distracted by something else. I tried to google up an image of Ankhesenamun but it seems that statures of her were either disfigured or destroyed completely and the panel images show her with a full head of rather thick looking hair.

Ouch. huh.gif That alien disguised as a woman from that movie Mars attacks just popped into my mind for some reason. Time for me to go to bed now. rolleyes.gif



Posted by: DarmonVing Sep 26 2004, 05:10 PM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Sep 25 2004, 01:50 AM)
Would you believe that Ankhesenamun was Tutankhamun's half sister and Nefertiti was not Tutankhamun's mother. Tutankhamun's mother was a woman named Kiya.


blink.gif I had a very unusual dream about a girl with green skin and red hair a little over a week ago and would you believe that her name was Kiya? -

Well anyway... I remembered hearing that Tut had some sort of skull deformity which supposedly made it difficult for him to sleep as well as a series of other health problems. I never thought too much of it at the time but now that I see these new images of the skulls that I should have been paying more attention.

Here is an X-ray of Tut's skull and it does appear that his head wasn't normal.

user posted image

Besides taking an x-ray of his skull, they also decided to do a reconstruction of his face. See the lizard?

user posted image

The King Tut Investigation

http://www.iois.net/TutInvestigation.htm

There was a lot of controversy about how he had died as well as to what happened to his wife. There was also some controversy as to who his parents were.

QUOTE
Tut most likely was the son of Pharaoh Amenhotep IV (also known as Akhenaten), and was married to his probable half-sister Ankhesenamun, the daughter of Akhneten and the famous Queen Nefertiti. Tut died when he was about 18, having ruled for nine years, and so is often called the Boy King. Tut's death is something of a mystery; x-rays of his skull taken in 1967 seem to indicate that he may have been killed (and possibly murdered) by a blow to the back of his head.


http://www.who2.com/kingtut.html


QUOTE
Smenkhare was her brother too.


Yeah that's right Seralia. Smenkhare was her brother and it seems that both he and Akhenaten died before Tut became king.

QUOTE
Unfortunately I really haven't been able to find any statues of her but I did manage to find an image of another one of Akhenaten's daughters.


You might not find too many images of her either for one good reason.


QUOTE
Due to Tutankhamun having no heirs, Ay became Pharaoh and took Ankhesenamun as his queen to legitimise his rule. What happened to her after that is not known. Ay ruled for only four years and after his death Horemheb grabbed power. He soon obliterated evidence of the reigns of Akhenaten, Tutankhamun and Ay and substituted his own name on many monuments.


http://www.egyptiandreams.co.uk/keywords/tutankhamun/tutankhamun.php

As far as I know, this is one of the few images that I've been able to find of her and the most important piece of evidence is unfortunately missing.

user posted image

Sorry to drop this and run but I'm on my friend's computer and he needs it back now. I should be back on my own computer in a few weeks but I'll check in between now and then.


Posted by: Seralia Sep 26 2004, 08:17 PM
Glad you could drop in DV. smile.gif Judging by that dream you had, I guess I should see if I can dig up anything on Kiya. Thanks for adding those images of Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun. I had seen a documentary about his mysterious death and do remember something about his skull being deformed and that he had problems with his neck because of two or more fused vertebrae due to a condition known as Klippel-Feil Syndrome.

QUOTE
Klippel-Feil Syndrome is a rare disorder characterized by the congenital fusion of any 2 of the 7 cervical (neck) vertebrae. It is caused by a failure in the normal segmentation or division of the cervical vertebrae during the early weeks of fetal development. The most common signs of the disorder are short neck, low hairline at the back of the head, and restricted mobility of the upper spine. Associated abnormalities may include scoliosis (curvature of the spine), spina bifida (a birth defect of the spine), anomalies of the kidneys and the ribs, cleft palate, respiratory problems, and heart malformations. The disorder also may be associated with abnormalities of the head and face, skeleton, sex organs, muscles, brain and spinal cord, arms, legs, and fingers.


http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and_medical/disorders/klippel_feil.htm

I found an image of Kiya and she did have the same elongated skull.

[EDITED by PuPP: Tripod does not allow remote linking so the image does not show up.]
http://members.tripod.com/~ib205/amarna/kiya/kiya_3.jpg

Oh this is interesting. Kiya might be the key here.

QUOTE
Kiya is thought to have been a foreign princess, known originally as Tadukhipa sent from Mitanni to be married to Amenhotep III.


QUOTE
It is thought that Kiya was originally a Mitannian princess, Tadukhipa, originally sent to be a wife of Amenophis III - but on arrival was instead married to Akhenaten.


She may have been a foreign princess. rolleyes.gif

Here is another image of her.

user posted image

She's a real mystery woman alright but I doubt that she had green skin and red hair. wink.gif

QUOTE
Who exactly Kiya herself was is unknown. Some have seen her as the Mitannian princess-bride, Tadukepa, known to have been sent to Egypt for a diplomatic marriage at the beginning of Akhenaten's reign. Kiya's name, however, might suggest some affiliation with the courtier family of Akhmin, which seems to have paralleled the Thutmosid royal house for two or three generations, at least, and counted among its members possibly Great Royal Wife Mitumwiya (Amenhotep III+s mother) and certainly royal in-laws Yuya and Thuyu; their daughter, Great Royal Wife Tiye; and their putative son, Ay, who would succeed Tutankhamen on the throne. If Akhenaten was the father of his (second) successor, then Kiya is very likely Tutankhamen's mother.


http://www.egyptology.com/kmt/fall97/endpaper.html

And the mystery deepens. ph34r.gif

QUOTE
It is also difficult to determine if Smenkhkare and Tutankhamun were brothers of Akhenaten or sons of his by Kiya.


http://www.geocities.com/rickdes/akhen.html

Posted by: Seralia Sep 26 2004, 09:41 PM
I finally found a sculpture of Ankhesenamun. Too bad it's only a front view because I can almost guarantee that she has some type of skull deformity.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/6954/ankhesen_skulpt_org.gif

Posted by: Seralia Sep 27 2004, 10:01 PM
I widened my search parameters just a bit and found more elongated skulls.

This is another Egyptian example.

user posted image

The image came from this site which shows similarities in the Old and New worlds between the cultures.

OLD & NEW WORLD PARALLELS

http://www.deepertruth.com/parallels.html

Here are two more elongated skull images.

user posted image

user posted image

QUOTE
Plato’s Island is such a scholarly, well-researched work that it almost defies controversy.  Even the most sceptical of readers would have to deeply consider the arguments put forward that Malta is indeed Plato’s Island of Atlantis.  The book contains many very convincing arguments correlating documentary evidence from Ancient Greek and Egyptian sources, as well as archaeological finds that predate the civilisation of Ancient Egypt by at least 1000 years.

Not only do the temples themselves predate Egypt but also perhaps one of the most extraordinary aspects of the research is the discovery of skeletons that are larger than the normal homo sapiens of that era.  Indeed it is not just the skeletons that are larger but the skulls are elongated with considerably greater brain capacity, somewhat similar to the Amarna skulls of the family of Akhenaton a mere 1300BC.  For an Esoteric Egyptologist this somewhat begs the question as to whether or not they were the ‘Shemsu-Hor’ ‘The Followers of Horus’ who were credited by the Ancient Egyptians themselves as being the ones who gave them their knowledge, technology, religion and incredible civilisation.


http://www.ra-horakhty.co.uk/malta/dec002.htm

Now for something really interesting.

From a lecture by Andrew Collins for the 15th Questing Conference at Conway Hall, red Lion Square, London WC1, on Saturday, 3 November 2001:

QUOTE
Moving on to another subject now, HERA magazine has recently published a thought provoking article on two mystery skulls found on the Mediterranean island of Malta, which are being seen as evidence of an unknown human species with extremely long heads. Editor Adriano Forgione, who has travelled to the museum in Malta where the skulls are housed, believes that they might constitute evidence for the existence of the fallen angelic race known as the Watchers, found in pseudepigraphical works such as the enigmatic Book of Enoch. He cites the fact that another Enoch-related text, called the Testament of Amram, speaks of a Watcher with a visage like a viper, while collectively the Watchers are referred to as 'serpents', and their Nephilim offspring as 'sons of serpents'. He thus deduces that this abstract term might refer to the facial features of the Watchers and their offspring resembling that of serpents, in other words their heads were elongated in form.

The skulls, which are thought to be contemporary with the megalithic monuments on the island, and are thus at least 5,000 years old, are certainly elongated. However, the conventional view would be that they were artificially deformed in early childhood, using boards and wrappings. At such an early age the skull is still malleable and can be shaped in accordance with either religious or sectarian beliefs. This practice is found among ancient cultures world-wide, although in particular among the peoples of the Americas, and also in the Near East, the most obvious location for Eden, the home of the Watchers in Enochian literature. Adriano is certain, however, that these skulls are not artificially deformed, a fact confirmed by the Maltese archaeologists who have examined them.

The Watchers and Nephilim, and their human origins, is the subject of my books FROM THE ASHES OF ANGELS (1996) and GODS OF EDEN (1998). I pointed out the importance of the Testament of Amram to the physical appearance of the Watchers in the first of these titles, and this idea has been repeated many times since that time (in HERA magazine particularly).

I would like to see the Maltese skulls in question as evidence of an early race, connected with the megalithic builders of the eastern Mediterranean and linked in some way with the Watchers of the Book of Enoch. Yet only time will tell whether the skulls are either natural or deformed using artificial processes. Clearly, before any final judgements can be made further scientific opinions are required from experts in the field of human physiognomy.

DAUGHTERS OF AKHENATEN - Deformed Heads or Not?

Adriano in the above mentioned article has also pointed out that the Maltese skulls resemble very closely the shapes of the heads of the daughters of Amarna king Akhenaten, who ruled c. 1350 BC. Carved busts and painted reliefs show the young princesses with excessively long heads, while the pharaoh himself is shown from Year Four of his reign with an elongated head and serpent-like facial features. What earthly reason made him decide to portray his daughters in this grotesque fashion? The answer seems to lie in religious and spiritual ideals adopted by Akhenaten at this time. Before Year Four of his 17-year reign, he was portrayed like any other New Kingdom pharaoh. Yet all this changed when he rejected the traditional polytheism of Egypt in favour of the sole veneration of the invisible source of life expressed by the rays of the sun disk, Aten. The two events coincided with each other and are thus intrinsically linked in some way. Thus we have no need to assume that Akhetaten, who also had himself depicted with female breasts and hips, actually looked this way. Of course, this possibility cannot be ruled out, especially as it has been shown that the faces of some native Egyptians from Middle Egypt, where Akhenaten's gleaming white city of Akhetaten was located, resemble those of the pharaoh as depicted in the distinctive art style of his reign.

It seems to be quite another matter for the daughters. The grotesque extension to the length of their skulls suggests either some kind of rare medical condition, perhaps caused through constant interbreeding within the family, or deliberate head deformation. We certainly know that this practice was to be found among the Mitanni, or Hurrian, peoples of the Near East, and that it dates back to at least the time of the Halaf and Ubaid cultures who inhabited the region, c. 5500-3500 BC. Indeed, various figurines of serpent-headed individuals found among Ubaid graves in Lower Iraq have been used to support the contention that the Anunnaki, or builder gods, of Sumerian and Akkadian mythology belonged to this earlier culture. In one set of texts known as the Kharsag Tablets these gods of heaven and earth are described as serpents, or to have eyes like serpents. This reminds us of the descriptions of the Watchers and Nephilim in Enochian literature, who are thought to have inhabited the same region as the ancestors of the Sumerian and Akkadian races. It is a matter I have discussed at length in FROM THE ASHES OF ANGELS.

It is my opinion that the original Watchers of Eden were long-headed individuals who were a shamanistic elite that entered the Near East around 9500 BC and founded the earliest proto-Neolithic communities, which thrived on the Upper Euphrates river and other parts of the Near East (modern Kurdistan) through to the rise of Sumer and Akkad, c. 3000-2000 BC. Yet their memory became distorted over the millennia, with them changing from people with faces like serpents to serpents themselves. The same thing would appear to have happened among the Maya peoples of Central America, who deliberately deformed their heads in order to resemble their first ancestors whom they saw as walking serpents. This same process was, I believe, practised among the Halaf and Ubaid peoples of ancient Iraq, who saw their own original ancestors as serpent-faced or serpent-like individuals.

As for Akhenaten's daughters, I believe there is a very strong possibility that their heads were deformed during early childhood. Why exactly remains unclear, although it might well relate to their father's spiritual beliefs concerning the original ancestry of Egyptian pharaohs, who were themselves seen as descendants of the gods of the First Time. Yet until we find the mummy of any one of Akhenaten's royal daughters, and see for ourselves the shape of the skull, the matter can be taken no further.


http://andrewcollins.com/page/conference/

Posted by: Seralia Sep 27 2004, 10:31 PM
I found a few more actual skulls. This one had some surgery.

user posted image

user posted image

This image shows a good partial view of the back of the skull. This skull is solid with no evidence of artificial manipulation.

user posted image

Just as I had suspected. This skull is elongated too.

user posted image

The profile of the skull can be seen in the below image and the skull itself is nearly identical to what I would expect the skulls of both Kiya and Ankhesenamun to have looked like.

user posted image

The coloration of the bone is what I find to be most interesting about the above skull. It appears to be newer than the others and I almost suspect that since Ankhesenamun disappeared mysteriously, she may not have died in Egypt but fled somewhere else. These skulls were found in Peru and there is a considerable amount of evidence that the Egyptians had reached Peru some time ago and perhaps some members of the royal family decided that it would be safer for them there.

http://www.freedomdomain.com/ufo.htm

Posted by: Seralia Sep 27 2004, 11:07 PM
They certainly were some unusually proportioned people.

user posted image

user posted image

Akhenaten also had an unusual shape to him.

user posted image

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 28 2004, 05:41 AM
Seralia, I am never disappointed at the amount of research you present here! You are amazing, in case I haven't mentioned that before.

Here are a couple of sentences snipped from one of your latest posts:

"However, the conventional view would be that they (skulls) were artificially deformed in early childhood, using boards and wrappings. At such an early age the skull is still malleable and can be shaped in accordance with either religious or sectarian beliefs." and

"Adriano is certain, however, that these skulls are not artificially deformed, a fact confirmed by the Maltese archaeologists who have examined them."



My mother, a small lady, was in such long, hard labor when my brother was born that both of them barely survived. My brother was a large baby and, as a result, his head was pointed at birth. My mother was devastated, thinking she had labored so long to give birth to an imbecile. The attending doctor told her she could round out the head with gentle pressure. It worked.

I am thinking that there may have been a trend among ancient royalty to leave the head as was in order to differentiate their "class" or heritage as "gods", as being separate from that of normal human beings. They may have even manipulated the skull in order to make it even more elongated than it was.

When you consider the size of the infant skulls, no normal human could have given birth to such babies without probably giving up their own lives or by caesarean (surgical - C-section) removal. Hmmmm. "Caesarean'. Wonder where THAT term came from!

BJ


Posted by: Mark Sep 28 2004, 01:27 PM
BJ
QUOTE
Seralia, I am never disappointed at the amount of research you present here! You are amazing, in case I haven't mentioned that before.


I second that!

And Darmon Ving too has added a wealth of knowledge.


Seralia, WOW, I had never seen so many statues and busts of the elongated skulls.

IMHO, those elongated skulls could NEVER be shaped into a NORMAL human sized skull.

The size is much too large. Imagine the brain capacity of those peoples. WOW!

Though I do believe that many natives tried to emulate their gods by shaping their skulls from birth, and that practice was still carried on thru the 20th century in Africa.

It really does tie in So America to Egypt, though the book keepers would like you to believe there was no connection in ancient times.

I recall the evidence of cocaine and tobacco that was found in Egyptian mummies and back then cocaine and tobacco were ONLY FOUND in the Americas.

Also, to save you research time, please check my original post of this thread for more conehead and elongated skulls.

Seralia, thanks again for your awesome research!

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 28 2004, 03:57 PM
Ah, PuPP, yes! How could I have left out DarmonVing! He has contributed so much to these threads! Oh, gee, who else did I leave out. Blank mind here.

BJ

Posted by: Seralia Sep 29 2004, 01:53 PM
QUOTE
Seralia, I am never disappointed at the amount of research you present here! You are amazing, in case I haven't mentioned that before.


QUOTE
I second that!


Thanx for the kind words BJ and PuPP. smile.gif

QUOTE
I am thinking that there may have been a trend among ancient royalty to leave the head as was in order to differentiate their "class" or heritage as "gods", as being separate from that of normal human beings. They may have even manipulated the skull in order to make it even more elongated than it was.


As PuPP mentioned, the brain capacity is much larger than that of a normal human skull and the only type of humanoid known to have a larger brain capacity, were the Neanderthals but they were only a few hundred ccm's larger than the normal human skull. These skulls are more along the range of at least twice the brain capacity of a normal human and not consistent with the process of binding the skull.

The heads of these natives were bound.

http://theworldsstrangestmuseum.com/ACDNAmerica5.htm

http://theworldsstrangestmuseum.com/ACDNAmerica6.htm

http://theworldsstrangestmuseum.com/ACDNAmerica8.htm

http://theworldsstrangestmuseum.com/ACDNAmerica9.htm

A bound skull is still going to have the same capacity as a normal skull and will not grow to twice the capacity. And also there will definitely be a permanent soft part at the top of the skull if the skull is bound because binding of the skull prevents the plates from growing together normally. As far as I can tell by these images, the skulls look perfectly healed with no apparent weak spots or deformation of the plates. The portion of the skull where the skull would be the weakest is along the coronal suture. The coronal suture can be clearly seen in the last two skull images that I posted and shows no signs of weakness.

I hate to get technical but -- the frontal bone of a skull of a skull bound person would clearly be deformed and the frontal bones in the abnormal skulls do not show any degree of deformation. The parietal, occipital and temporal bones are much larger than that of a normal skull as seen in the Egyptian skulls and the depictians of their heads. The skull from the frontal bone to the occipital bone is much longer than that of a normal person.

Wait a minute. I just rechecked the last two images and the temporal bone is normal. The bone that is longer is the parietal bone. One thing that I did notice is that on a normal human skull, the temporal bone and the occipital bone are connected together by the lambdoid suture. The skull depicted in the last two images does not show evidence of a lambdoid suture. blink.gif

You'll see what I mean if you compare the diagram of the skull on this site with the two images of the skull that I posted.

http://face-and-emotion.com/dataface/physiognomy/cranium.jsp

Posted by: Seralia Sep 29 2004, 02:23 PM
This is an image of the top of a normal human skull.

user posted image

1. Occipital Bone
2. Lambdoidal Suture
3. Parietal Bone
4. Sagittal Suture
5. Coronal Suture
6. Frontal Bone

The left and right parietal bones in the elongated skull bulge out to the sides and as I mentioned before, the Lambdoid or Lambdoidal suture is missing. This is very unusal. If the deformity was caused by the binding of the skull, the point where the coronal suture meets the Sagital suture would have not gone together normally. In the elongated skull, the sutures appear to be normal.

Posted by: Seralia Sep 29 2004, 02:37 PM
This is a normal fetal skull that show the plates before the sutures form.

user posted image

1. Future Coronal Suture
2. Anterior Fontanel
3. Anterolateral Fontanel
4. Future Squamosal Suture
5. Posterolateral Fontanel
6. Future Lamdoidal Suture
7. External Acoustic Meatus
8. Future Sagittal Suture
9. Posterior Fontanel

What head-binding does is basically puts pressure on the future coronal suture and the future Lamdoidal suture narrowing the gap between the left and right parietal bones and the frontal bone and also narrowing the gap between the parietal bones and the occipital bone.

Posted by: Seralia Sep 29 2004, 08:18 PM
There are skull deformities similar to that of head-binding but they are rare. The deformity pictured below is what is commonly known as aposterior skull deformity which is partially due to the suppine positioning of the infant to prevent SIDS.

user posted image

QUOTE
Photographs obtained in an infant showing posterior skull deformity preoperatively (left) and the result 1 year postoperatively (right).


As you can see in the below image, there was pressure on the Occipital bone which compressed the Lambdoidal suture causing a clearly visible deformation of the suture fusing the Occipital bone to the Perietal lobes prematurely.

user posted image

QUOTE
Axial three-dimensional CT scans obtained in an infant, demonstrating posterior skull deformity preoperatively (left) and the result 1 year after corrective surgery (right).


As I mentioned before, there is no visible Lambdoidal suture on the one elongated skull which is really quite puzzling to me.

Posted by: Seralia Sep 29 2004, 08:38 PM
This basicly explains the types of skull deformities found in infants and none of these deformities could even come close to explaining the size and shape of the elongated skulls.

Abnormal Skull Shape

QUOTE
Abnormal skull shape generally occurs because the bones of the skull have grown together (suture fusion or synostosis) or because the bones of the skull have been moved to an incorrect place but are not fused (deformational ). Most abnormal skull shapes come from the birth process and subsequent flattening of one side of the head. It may also be related to a tightened neck muscle on one side (torticollis), abnormal neck spine (fusion) or abnormal eye muscles.



Craniosynostosis ( fusion of the skull bones)

QUOTE
The skull is formed by five bones, with gaps between the bones (sutures). These six gaps are important to allow the bones to move during the birth process. They also allow the brain and skull to increase in size as the baby grows. If one or more of these "sutures" grow together, then the rest of the skull has to grow in a different direction, causing the skull shape to be abnormal.


QUOTE
Plagiocephaly - literally means "crooked skull" and can be used to describe a deformational skull shape or synostosis of the unicoronal suture (left or right). It is important to differentiate between the two causes. The asymmetry is usually on one side of the head and may involve the bones around the eye. Occasionally the posterior suture (lamboid suture) will fuse and cause a plagiocephaly.

Brachycephaly - usually refers to bicoronal synostosis (both coronal sutures involved) and causes the forehead region to be wide and high. The eyes may appear wide apart.

Trigonocephaly - refers to fusion of the metopic suture causing a triangular shaped forehead. The eyes may be close together. Some babies will have a ridge over the midline suture but a mild deformity of the forehead.




http://www.ppsca.com/skull.htm

Posted by: Mark Sep 29 2004, 11:12 PM
Seralia, it appears that you are debunking the claim that the elongated skulls are ALL a result of head binding.

RIGHT ON!

Excellant posts!

handclap.gif

Posted by: Seralia Sep 30 2004, 08:08 PM

Thanx PuPP. smile.gif

I do seem to be debunking the claims that these elongated skulls are the result of the binding of the infants head. I can understand some minor deformation of the skull that was the result of artifical means but not to the extent as seen in these skulls.

Going back to the Anisazi people for a moment; there is evidence that they were one of the tribes that practiced skull binding but none of their skulls attained the size and shape of the elongated skulls.

QUOTE
The most striking feature of the Pueblo I period is the advent of lambdoidal cranial deformation, or simply the deformation of skulls. While Basketmaker skulls were considered dolichocephalic, or long headed, Pueblo skulls were brachycephalic to mesocephalic, broad headed.


user posted image

32 This overview shows the deformation of Anasazi skulls.

QUOTE
At first, scientists believed that Basketmaker People and Pueblo People were from entirely different origins, but later they found out that there was a simple cause for the change of the posterior of a puebloan skull, the cradle board.

From various examinations and long and detailed studying archaeologists discovered that there are some differences between the two generations which are not of great significance, for, although changes occurred, there is a strong continuity of development from Basketmaker to Pueblo times.

Scientists today believe that the skull deformation is simply the result of strapping babies against a now hard cradle board, instead of the soft cradle board of former times. The soft skull of an infant was flattened by the pressure and as the bones grew and hardened, the skull deformation was permanent.Why the Anasazi started wanting to have deformed skulls is still a riddle, some scientists though believe that it was a "matter of fashion" .


http://www.greenbutter.de/anasazi/pueblo/

Here is a little more information about Pediatric Cranial Synostosis that I found interesting BTW.

QUOTE
The expansion of the head is driven from within by growth of the brain, and craniosynostosis causes deformity by restricting expansion of the head in the dimension perpendicular to the affected suture. Compensatory pressure by the growing brain results in expansion, or bossing, in adjacent areas of the skull. The characteristic patterns of deformity caused by synostosis of each individual suture are readily recognized by the trained eye. Thus, physical examination is the gold standard for evaluation of this problem.


http://www.ohsu.edu/neurosurgery/conditions/synostosis.shtml

The above statement basically means that the size and shape of the skull is determined by the size of the brain and that if the growth of the skull is restricted in one way it will somehow manage to grow only enough to accommodate the brain of the infant in another way. In the case of the infant with the posterior skull deformity, (see first image in my Sep 29 2004, 08:18 PM post) since the skull could not expand from front to back, it began to expand from top to bottom as can be seen in the image. The same type of deformity can also be seen in the diagram of the deformed Anisazi skull.

Since the capacity of the elongated skulls is very close to twice that of a normal human skull then the brain itself would then be twice the size of a normal human brain. There is just no way that a bound skull of a normal human child could be made to grow to nearly twice its normal size. The capacity of these elongated skulls is from over 2000 cc's to over 3000 cc's and the brain capacity of a normal adult human skull is only 1500 cc's.

Posted by: Seralia Sep 30 2004, 08:18 PM
These people seemed to have gotten around quite a bit.

OLMEC CIVILIZATION: 1200 BC- 600 AD

user posted image

QUOTE
Olmecs had colossal heads some of which were deformed. Portrait of a man with said deformation. This life-sized greenstone head was found at Tenango del Valle, Mexico State, surprisingly a distance west from the Olmec heartland of Veracruz and Tabasco.


user posted image

QUOTE
The small figures in this scene have been restored to the original positions they had been found in at La Venta, Tabasco. There is no definite answer for what this scene is enacting. One of the noteworthy aspects of this concession is that all of the men have elongated skulls, the result of cranial deformation begun at an early age. For the Maya, this would be a practice reserved for noble children.


user posted image

http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html

Posted by: Mark Sep 30 2004, 09:57 PM
Hi Seralia,

Weird, I was just thinking about the Olmec heads earlier today and was going to add them to this thread.

Olmecs

Were africans in the Americas?

Sure Looks like Negroid features to me!

user posted image


I believe that is Zecharia Sitchin in the photos below and the images came from
http://www.sitchin.com

user posted image

Posted by: Seralia Oct 1 2004, 02:03 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Sep 30 2004, 09:57 PM)
Hi Seralia,

Weird, I was just thinking about the Olmec heads earlier today and was going to add them to this thread.

Yes I noticed that there was a controversy as to whether the Olmecs had African features. There were indeed accounts of one or more dark skinned native American tribes being in the America's prior to the arrival of the Spanish that were thought to be the remnants of an African sea-faring culture so anything is possible.

There is one thing that I noticed and that was an Egyptian artifact which depicts a being with an elongated Olmec-type skull.

user posted image

I am beginning to suspect now that whatever these beings were that they interbred with the Egyptians and other cultures creating a hybrid race that had basically the same brain capacity of this unknown race.

This is a description of one of the elongated skulls:

QUOTE
The first skull presents problems of its own. The frontal part of the skull seems to belong to an individual of the pre-Neanderthal family, but the lower jaw, though more robust than modern human type, has a modern shape and characteristics. The shape of the cranium does not have any comparison with the Erectus, Neanderthal types, nor the modern human type. Some minor Neanderthal characteristics are present, as is the occipital ridge on the bottom back of the skull and the flattened bottom of the cranium, other characteristics point more tovards Homo Erectus. The angle of the cranial bottom is, though, unusual. We cannot exclude the possibility of a deformed individual in this case, but it is highly unlikely that the angle of the frontal part would require a modification of the lower jaw in the process of growing to resemble modern human types with their projected chin rim. The answer seems to be that the skull belongs to a representantive of an unknown premodern human or humanoid type.


http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.enigmas.org/aef/lib/archeo/askulls.shtml

Now I am beginning to think that the differences between the Egyptian skulls and that of the Olmecs may be due to some minor manipulation of the Parietal lobes and that the Egyptians, in order to look more normal may have done something to cause their elongated skulls to grow from front to back instead of from top to bottom like the Olmecs.

user posted image

I had an interesting conversation about the shape of the Olmec skulls an what may have caused them to become elongated with a a friend of mine and after I told him about the brain capacity of the individual he came up with this interesting observation. He basically told me that for an infant with what would be considered to be a larger than normal skull, given the estimated brain capacity, that the skull would most likely be deformed by natural child birth and that the skull would take on a watermellon shape.

Now BJ said something interesting.

QUOTE
When you consider the size of the infant skulls, no normal human could have given birth to such babies without probably giving up their own lives or by caesarean (surgical - C-section) removal. Hmmmm. "Caesarean'. Wonder where THAT term came from!


If one of these beings with an elongated skull tried to interbreed with a normal human female, there could be some serious complications since judging by the dimensions of the bodies of the females with elongated skulls, their hips seem to be wider than that of a normal human female.

Now if one of these hybrid children were delivered via C-section than the shape of the skull would be entirely different and would be more pear shaped than watermellon shaped. One key as to what one of these children would look like is the mummified fetus of one of Tutankhamun's daughters which was thought to have been born prematurely.

user posted image

http://www.ufocasebook.com/alienkingtut.html

I researched the image and it is authentic.

Posted by: Mark Oct 1 2004, 03:47 PM
QUOTE
There is one thing that I noticed and that was an Egyptian artifact which depicts a being with an elongated Olmec-type skull.

The image below that text reminds me of Summerian scupltures and it also has what we'd call ET features... especially the eyes.

Seralia, I agree that it sure does appear that there was an interbreeding program.

But I believe there is STILL an interbreeding program taking place on earth today.

In regards to c section and big heads....

My gf's mom is japanese, her father german. And I recall a comment that she didn't want his children because of their big heads. He is highly intelligent with an analytical mind. He scoffs at me for believing in UFOs or that Iraq war was unjustified. He says war is good, it cuts down on the population.


Posted by: Seralia Oct 1 2004, 05:14 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Oct 1 2004, 03:47 PM)
Seralia, I agree that it sure does appear that there was an interbreeding program.

But I believe there is STILL an interbreeding program taking place on earth today.

I agree with you that the interbreeding program is going on but in a more covert manner. I remember something called missing fetus syndrome in which a fetus would be developing normally in the womb up until a certain period of time and then vanish without a trace.

Definition of Missing Embryo/Fetus Syndrome

QUOTE
Particular female abductees allege that a pregnancy usually between 6 weeks to 12 weeks (1 1/2 - 3 months) is missing due to purported alien intervention. Although the distinction between embryo and fetus is essentially arbitrary, it is customary to refer to the human conceptus, from fertilization through the first 8 weeks of development, as an embryo, and from 8 weeks after ovulation until term, as a fetus.


http://www.worldofthestrange.com/docv166.html

What seems to be happening is that the babies are taken from the mother and grown in artificial wombs which would allow the skull to expand normally and I do remember hearing reports from abductees stating that they have seen children with features very similar to Tutankhamun's daughter that had normal colored skin.

Posted by: Mark Oct 1 2004, 07:51 PM
Seralia, I've also read many reports of women claiming to have had their unborn babies removed from them, some carrying them to near term, but of course, most dismiss these as tall tales and as something that could never be happening.

Also, if we were to discuss the many topics we have here in the forum in person in the outside world, most people would scoff and ridicule us while never trying to understand it.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 1 2004, 08:28 PM
It strikes me as a peculiarity that not one picture of the stone/marble carvings of these elongated heads is depicted with hair! No hair? I find that very odd.

Thanks, Seralia and PuPP, for keeping this interesting thread alive. You will probably run out of search results before long, as you have covered a lot of territory. Not many eyes have feasted on what you have dug up.

BJ

Posted by: Seralia Oct 1 2004, 08:55 PM
I did find it a little peculiar that most of the depictions of these people lacked hair but I'm sure that I'll find some more references to them now that I fixed a minor spyware infestation that was messing with my google. rolleyes.gif

BTW, I found these pictures of a 3 pound 8 oz clear quartz Himalayan Skull that is said to be 12,500 years old.


user posted image
user posted image

Posted by: Mark Oct 1 2004, 09:35 PM
Seralia and BJ, it is my belief that the ancient gods (Not greek or roman gods) and the creators of many of those you see among us today, were hairless.

We have hair because we are part primate. We did not evolve, we were genetically tampered with.

I know it goes against religion and I don't wish to impose my beliefs, but I have pondered over this subject for a loooong time.

As I said before, there is an interbreeding program still taking place as well as a program of genetically manipulating current humans. Possibly upgrading us, or even downgrading for an easier to control slave race.

Remember, these are merely theories of mine and nothing is etched in stone - YET.

smile.gif

Seralia, thanks for the quartz images, I saved them and will back up to CD soon with all of the other excellant images you have posted.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 1 2004, 10:00 PM
Interesting take on the hair bit, PuPP. Your logic is going to get the best of you!

Tell you what, your primate thing got to me. Of course you know that I don't believe that, but your opinion is just fine. I got to thinking about angel pictures. Have you ever seen a bald one? These are higher forms of life, not descended from primates. Just think about it.

You've heard of hairless cats? Ugly, but have been genetically manipulated. So are we talking upgrading or downgrading with these genetic mutations?

When you think about it, some lower forms of life don't have any hair...earthworms come to mind, snakes, crustaceans, etc.

BJ

Posted by: Mark Oct 1 2004, 10:25 PM
Heh BJ, I knew I'd get ya.

Ok, here we go... and please don't get angry with me smile.gif

QUOTE
I got to thinking about angel pictures. Have you ever seen a bald one?


What year are most angel images from?

13th century?

14th?

Earlier?

Can you show me a 2000 or 3000 year old image of an angel.

I believe everything we've been taught is a lie, our belief systems, our religions etc.

I don't want you to change your beliefs, just help me try and understand what we are learning here.

You may be right, I may be wrong, but what really matters is that we care about one another.




Posted by: Wahya Oct 2 2004, 02:38 AM
In history it has not been uncommon for priests to shave their heads.


Even the roman catholic monks.

The egyptian priesthood shaved all the hair from their bodies and look at buddhists monks and some of the indian sects like hare krishna.

As for hairless lower animals - dont forget the lower animals that DO have hair like bees, spiders, and it has been discovered that a gecko's clinging power comes from microscopic hairs on their feet.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 2 2004, 08:16 AM
"Heh BJ, I knew I'd get ya." And I knew you knew it!

"Ok, here we go... and please don't get angry with me smile.gif"

How could I get angry with you? Frustrated, maybe, but never angry.

"Can you show me a 2000 or 3000 year old image of an angel." Can't do the impossible. I will offer that if you believe angels exist (I do because of the many eyewitness accounts), then you must know that they don't mutate into some other form of life, as they are spirit. Paintings of angels, dating back to the 14th and 15th centuries, show hair on their heads. I know that isn't far enough back for you. I have a book, deeply researched about angels...good and evil. There are Sumerian pictures of angels that were done in bas relief, c. 2000 B.C.

I will look through the book, try to find these ancient works by googling, then report back.

BJ


Posted by: BJ1 Oct 2 2004, 08:43 AM
Wahya, I was thinking about little furry/hairy insects, etc., like bees, caterpillars, spiders and the like when I mentioned hairless "animals", and should have included them for comparison.

It would appear that there are many more insects that are hairless. Bugs, snails, tomato worms, and more. We could go up the line and include fish, turtles, alligators/crocs...there must be more, but you get the idea.

It is true that some men in religious orders have shaved their heads, but they were born with hair. I don't know if the ancient people, whose heads were elongated, were born with hair, but from the pictures of infants posted by Seralia, it appears that maybe they weren't. If that is the case, then they were an entirely different race from the rest of us, not truly human, but of the Nephilim...half angel, half man. If we go back to the Sumerian tablets, they speak of those who from heaven to earth came and set up kingship. This is, also, what the Freemasons call "Authentic Tradition" in that a bloodline was established for those who would rule over the earth and its peoples.

BJ

Posted by: Seralia Oct 2 2004, 10:31 AM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 2 2004, 08:43 AM)
It is true that some men in religious orders have shaved their heads, but they were born with hair. I don't know if the ancient people, whose heads were elongated, were born with hair, but from the pictures of infants posted by Seralia, it appears that maybe they weren't. If that is the case, then they were an entirely different race from the rest of us, not truly human, but of the Nephilim...half angel, half man.

They may not have been bald but chose to shave their heads. I googled this up about egyptian hairstyles.


QUOTE
Children had unique hairstyles in ancient Egypt. Their hair was shaved off or cut short except for a long lock of hair left on the side of the head, the so-called side-lock of youth. This s-shaped lock was depicted by the hieroglyphic symbol of a child or youth. Both girls and boys wore this style until the onset of puberty. Young boys often shaved their heads, while young girls wore their hair in plaits or sometimes did up their hair in a ponytail style, hanging down the center of the back. Young girl dancers used to wear long thick braided ponytails. The edge of the tail was either naturally curled or was enhanced to do so. If the ponytail was not curled at the end, it was weighted down by adornments or metal discs.


QUOTE
In ancient Egypt, men and women used to shave their heads bald replacing their natural hair with wigs. Egyptian women did not walk around showing their bald heads, they always wore the wigs. Head shaving had a number of benefits. First, removing their hair made it much more comfortable in the hot Egyptian climate. Second, it was easy to maintain a high degree of cleanliness avoiding danger of lice infestation. In addition, people wore wigs when their natural hair was gone due to old age. However, even though the Egyptians shaved their heads, they did not think the bald look was preferable to having hair.

Priests were required to keep their entire bodies cleanly shaved. They shaved every third day because they needed to avoid the danger of lice or any other uncleanness to conduct rituals. This is the reason why priests are illustrated bald-headed with no eyebrows or lashes.


http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/dailylife/hairstyles.html

Posted by: Seralia Oct 2 2004, 11:02 AM
Forensic Recreation of "Conehead"

user posted image

Posted by: Seralia Oct 2 2004, 11:21 AM
I just have to google these people. rolleyes.gif


QUOTE
And what about the mysterious Mullion people? I ran across a reference to them in a recent book I read by Art Bell and Brad Steiger, entitled The Source-Journey through the unexplained. In it, there is mention of a culture that appeared very suddenly and only briefly, some 10,000 years ago, along the Algerian coast. According to the book, they consisted of mostly women and children who worked with tool types and domesticated animals, never before seen. Another unusual aspect of these people is that they possess the largest cranial capacity of any known culture. Ours presently averages about 1,400 cc, while theirs was approximately 2,000 cc. Their heads must have looked a little oversized when compaired to our own but one must wonder, at the same time, could this have reflected their intellectual capacity or level of developement?


http://www.bright.net/~phobia/visitation.htm

http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r110799d.html



Posted by: Seralia Oct 2 2004, 11:28 AM
I think I'm on their trail. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Religion and Mythology

Regarding the religion of the aborigines, the evidence is somewhat conflicting. Certain it is that their legends are full of evil spirits and malignant demons which destroy men, women, and children. I think it is very doubtful if they have any knowledge of a beneficient God or righteous Creator. "Mullion" is a wicked being who lives in a high tree and seizes black fellows to devour in a higher abode, for he lives in the Milky Way.


http://www.sacred-texts.com/aus/awa/awa14.htm

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 2 2004, 02:27 PM
Seralia, when I questioned the bald-headed ones of ancient times, i.e., those with the elongated skulls, I had in mind a more ancient people than the Egyptians. I need to go back to Babylonian times into the Sumerian records. I have a few key words to google for the info. I may come up dry, then again, maybe not. Since I can't make heads nor tails out of posting pics, as it is confusing, I can at least post the sites where any pictures may be. I have asked my daughter for some help so that this ignorance won't handicap me for too much longer.

"I think I'm on their trail." Seralia, you've been hot on their trail during this entire thread!


BJ

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 3 2004, 04:59 PM
If somebody would walk me through the technical details of how to attach a photo here; I will show you an elongated skull of Mound Builder (Caddoan) royalty which was removed from a mound here in Fannin County, Texas in 1931 by the Univesity of Texas on a WPA funded project. The Sanders Mounds site is the second most important mound comlex next to Spiro, Oklahoma and is one of the two sites in Texas where turquoise from New Mexico was recovered. The other site was south of Rockwall Texas and a ancient trade route connects Spiro, to Sanders, to Rockwall and all the way to Northern Mexico where a unique green obsidian was mined.

Posted by: Mark Oct 3 2004, 07:00 PM
Tex, first the image has to be uploaded online somewhere.

Then simply click on the button above that says IMG and type the URL into the pop up window.

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 3 2004, 08:11 PM
http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/sLxgQaCIpAEv7JM1cG7MTI8TqwmLiFCTbPjOWFQPJqIkjidKWYVme9WdpgNKTGIGVpZkevdS7Cj52dhRzSuIhrByCh0vfQRYM57rWQ/Skulls/skull-dc.jpg.JPG
That is the url that I copied from the Precolumbian_Inscriptions forum at yahoo where I had posted it in the files section under skulls. Hopefully you all can copy and paste from this long url above it is a very large image but impressive IMHO. It is one of two published in "The 1931 Excavations of the Sanders Mound Site in Lamar County Texas" by Alex Krieger et al. published by Texas Archeology Research Lab in Austin, Texas. It lay in a drawer unpublished until last year when funding was finally found for publication after 73 years. The site actually extends to the west side of Bois D'Arc Creek which is the original boundary line of Fannin County established in 1836 by Dr. Daniel Rowlett who led a colony there when it was thought to be in Miller County Arkansas. The grave containing the turquoise was on the Goss Farm just west of the two royal burial mounds. Though the area was eerily devoid of settlements of any kind, Native or European when Dr. Rowlett arrived, I have discovered that Fannin County is literally a vast necropolis. What caused the disappearance of the Temple Mound Culture which was still thriving up until the end of the 18th century in other parts of Texas and neighboring states is unknown.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 3 2004, 08:19 PM
Hi, Tex. I tried to access the website you posted, but it says the Page Cannot Be Found. sad.gif

BJ


Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 3 2004, 09:14 PM
BJ it did the same thing when I tried to access it just now. Let me try again to link the url just before the actual image. the IMG button would not let me paste it in; perhaps it is way too long. The image itself fill the page. As I said before you may just have to register at Precolumbian_Inscriptions to access it. It would be a good idea to do so anyway as Mike White, the site owner has one of the most extensive archives of this kind of material on the web.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions/files/Skulls/

See if that works.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 3 2004, 09:17 PM
Just when the trail was getting a little bit cold, Tex comes up with a new lead. Thanx Tex. smile.gif

Indiana's got some interesting skulls hidden somewhere.

Jay County, Indiana

Indiana Department of Geology and Natural History

12th Annual Report 1882

QUOTE
Indian Burial Place

It is the opinion of some who have given the subject some study that the Twin Hills, situated just northwest of this city, was the burial place of Chief Godfrey and his Indian followers in this vicinity. In the last few weeks more than twenty-five skeletons have been unearthed. Many of the skeletons have been found buried in sitting postures facing each other, and there is evidence of fire, which many believe indicates this race gave burned offerings to their gods. Charred bones have been found between the graves. It is believed these bones are of animals.
Some are of the opinion that the skeletons are those of the mound builders. The skeletons taken from the hills seem to differ from most of the skeletons that are being found in this part of the country. No ornaments are buried with them, much as been found buried with other skeletons believed to be those of the Indians. In m any other graves have been found stone pipes and tomahawks.

Exhibits Skull

O. Clayton, city engineer, has been exhibiting a skull in the streets of the city which is of queer shape. The skull was large but not as large as many that have been found in the hills lately, he said. The front part of the head sloped back almost straight. The teeth were in good condition, considering the time they have been buried. Many of the skeletons and bones found now are on display in the office of the county surveyor.


http://www.moundbuilders.org/anitquity-gazetteer/antiquity-indiana/antiquity-indiana-jay.htm

I found this too... scoping.gif Two old reports of ancient skeletal remains being found with two skulls being much older than Neanderthal Man.

Discovery of an early type of man in Nebraska

Barbour, E.H., and Ward, H.B. ; Science, 24:628, 1906

In a circular mound recently opened on a Loess hill north of Florence, near Omaha, Nebraska, various skeletal parts, and eight human skulls of a primitive type were exposed. The credit of the discovery blongs to Mr. Robert F. Gilder, of Omaha, who described and figured the skulls in the World Herald, October 21.

That there was intrusive burial in this mound is apparent from the fact taht the skulls found below a layer of burned clay are of a much more primitive type than those found above it. Already five skulls have been taken from the lower level, and three from the upper, and others are in evidence and will be dug out later. Those of the upper layer probably belonged to Indians of a later period, and may be left out of account for the present. The skulls of the lower layer are low-browed and inferior, the supercialiary ridges being thick and protruding, the distance through the temples narrow, and the frontal emiences being as feebly developed as in Neanderthal man. The low arch of the skull is not the result of head-binding, but is normal and characteristic as is evidenced by five crania, two of which are fairly complete (...)

The skulls are brachycephalic, and extremely narrow in transverse diameter through the temples, expanding rapidly at the parietals. Length of skull 182 mm ; minimum breadth 93 mm ; maximum breadth 160 mm.

In shape and size the mandible agrees well with that of modern man, although the following marked differences are to be noted ; the bone, particularly in the region of the symphysis, is far heavier, the muscular scars more prominents, and the third molar in each case is ground to the very gum, while the second and third are ground in a diminishing ratio. The canines are weak and scarcely distinguishable from the incisors, and the space between the molars and the base of the coronoid is wide.

(...) The femora, which are massive, manifest an interior curvature more prononced than ordinary, and in cross section they appear triangular through the great development of the linea aspera, all muscular scars and tuberosities are noticeably prominent (...)

the skulls of the Nebraska man seem to be inferior to those of the mound builder, but for the present at least will be viewed as early representatives of the tribe.

________________________________________________

Ancient skull discovered near Santa Barbara

Anonymous, Nature, 112:699, 1923

According to a telegram from New York which appeared in the Times of October 31, an expedition of the Smithsonian Institution, of which Dr. J. P. Harrington is the head, has discovered, at Santa Barbara, in California, two human skulls for which a very high antiquity is claimed. They are said to belong to an era far earlier than that of Neanderthal man. The evidence upon which this claim is based would appear to be a low forehead and very pronounced eyebrow ridges. The mouth cavity is extremely large and the walls of the skull very thick. They are said to be twice the thickness of ancient Indian's skulls. Until more detailed evidence is available, judgment must be suspended as to the likelihood of this claim to a high antiquity being substantiated ; but it may be pointed out that skulls exhibiting Neandertaloid characteristics, especially in the pronounced eyebrow ridge, have been found in more than one occasion in the United States. Although a great age has been attributed to them, upon further examination they have been pronounced to be merely a relatively modern variety of the Indian type. It is significant that the new Santa Barbara skulls were associated with a material culture, implements, fish-hooks, etc. which is said to show a great advance upon any culture that can be associated with Neanderthal man.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/daruc/ypaleore.htm


Posted by: Seralia Oct 3 2004, 09:26 PM
I found some giants.


The GIANTS of Conneaut

QUOTE
The mounds that were situated in the eastern part of what is now the village of Conneaut and the extensive burying ground near the Presbyterian Church, appear to have had no connection with the burying places of the Indians. They doubtless refer to a more remote period and are the relics of an extinct race, of whom the Indians had no knowledge. These mounds were of comparatively small size, and of the same general character of those that are widely scattered over the country. What is most remarkable concerning them is that among the quantity of human bones they contain, there are found specimens belonging to men of large stature, and who must have been nearly allied to a race of giants. Skulls were taken from these mounds, the cavities of which were of sufficient capacity to admit the head of an ordinary man, and jaw-bones that might be fitted on over the face with equal facility. The bones of the arms and lower limbs were of the same proportions, exhibiting ocular proof of the degeneracy of the human race since the period in which these men occupied the soil which we now inhabit.


http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/sagawt0a.htm


Posted by: Seralia Oct 3 2004, 09:54 PM
Holocaust of Giants

The Great Smithsonian Cover-up

Noted Native American author and professor of law emeritus, Vine Deloria, writes in a personal communication:

It's probably better that so few of the ruins and remains were tied in with the Smithsonian because they give good reason to believe the ending of the Indiana Jones movie—a great warehouse where the real secrets of earth history are buried.

Modern day archaeology and anthropology have nearly sealed the door on our imaginations, broadly interpreting the North American past as devoid of anything unusual in the way of great cultures characterized by a people of unusual demeanor. The great interloper of ancient burial grounds, the nineteenth century Smithsonian Institution, created a one-way portal, through which uncounted bones have been spirited. This door and the contents of its vault are virtually sealed off to anyone, but government officials. Among these bones may lay answers not even sought by these officials concerning the deep past.

The first hint we had about the possible existence of an actual race of tall, strong, and intellectually sophisticated people, was in researching old township and county records. Many of these were quoting from old diaries and letters that were combined, for posterity, in the 1800s from diaries going back to the 1700s. Says Vine in this understanding:

Some of these old county and regional history books contain real gems because the people were not subjected to a rigid indoctrination about evolution and were astonished about what they found and honestly reported it.

The title pages of the early county and pioneer history books often included phrases like "CAREFULLY WRITTEN AND COMPILED" and "LEST WE FORGET."

Some time before archaeology came to subscribe the general public to its view of prehistory—generations prior to Darwin's troublesome theory—the pioneers thought that some of the earthworks were as ancient as could be concurrent with human habitation in America. Some among the early settlers exercised their pens assured that the earthworks were not built by the direct ancestry of the native people living in the historical period, but rather were constructed in a more remote era encompassing a different social order. They compared the "Mound Builders," with the "Indians," clearly discerning the former as belonging to an earlier time—possessing a different fate or destiny from the latter.

Evidence for the occupation of this region before the appearance of the red man and the white race is to be found in almost every part of the county, as well as through the northwest generally. In removing the gravel bluffs, which are numerous and deep, for the construction and repair of roads, and in excavating cellars, hundreds of human skeletons, some of them of giant form, have been found. A citizen of Marion County estimates that there were about as many human skeletons in the knolls of Marion County as there are white inhabitants at present!...

CONTINUED HERE:

http://www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/magazine/articles/giants/holocaust.html

More information on the Giants of Conneaut Here:

Ashtabula County, Ohio: Misc. Sources
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/Ashtab1.htm

Posted by: Mark Oct 3 2004, 10:51 PM
Hey Tex, maybe you can email me the image and then I'll post it.

mjharper712@hotmail.com

If it's under 1 MB should be no problem.


Seralia, if you get a chance, take a peek at the GIANT thread in this section.

smile.gif

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 4 2004, 03:20 PM
PuPP check your mail; the skull from the Sanders Mound in Texas is 500K. This skull is probably still stored in the TARL building at the University of Texas in Austin, unless the Caddo Nation repatriated it to Oklahoma as they did with the strange three legged pots and other artifacts from Sanders. It's strange that they were "repatriated" to Oklahoma when they came from the original homeland here in Texas. The Caddo, a collective name for about five groups were the last expression of the great mound building cultures extending from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico. They built the great earthworks and earth pyramids of North America and were in their second copper age when they began to decline like the Anasazi of the Southwest. I will try to retrieve some images from a professional collector group I belong to.These are the tablets containing the protowriting of the Adena culture which resemble Old World artifacts from the Neolithic.

Posted by: Mark Oct 4 2004, 06:24 PM
Skull found at Sanders Mound in Texas

user posted image

Thanx Tex, that sure does look very similar to some of the south american skulls.

But not as pronounced as the Eyptian and the Summerian.

Do you know approximately what year or century this person lived?


QUOTE
I will try to retrieve some images from a professional collector group I belong to.These are the tablets containing the protowriting of the Adena culture which resemble Old World artifacts from the Neolithic.


Cool, I love this kind of stuff!



Posted by: Prue Oct 4 2004, 11:51 PM
I love this skulls like this have been a passion for me. Wonderful contributions.

Here’s a take on Kiya.

There is a story that Drunvalo Melchizedek tells it fits into both the timeline and the elongated skulls. Can’t find any links so forgive me if I miss some parts it’s late.
Originally there were a Lemurian couple Ay and Tiya (not Kiya, I’ll suggest that was her name, there is a later Kiya, however I think who you are looking for is Tiya probably some historic confusion) who became physically immortal beings prior to the sinking of that continent. Reputedly they started they Naacal Mystery School teaching ascension to others. They did a whole lot of other stuff that’s not important here for the sake of this story, in Atlantis.

This is where they come in to the Egyptian pantheon. As the Egyptians began to loose their consciousness of one God (remember as a stair step evolutionary kind of place they were falling asleep again). They needed to have a Christ consciousness being walk the earth to put the real thing back into the Akashic record. So Ay and Tiya were enlisted to create a child, they did this with some type of high level trans dimensional sex. Akhunaton was their child. He was only given about 17 ½ years to make his imprint around 1355 B.C. Everyone hated him. He disrupted all religions telling everyone that priests were not necessary and that God was within them. My kind of guy. He also was a total pacifist and told all the armies to stop fighting, he ordered them to stay inside their borders and only respond if directly attacked. The People hated him, however it did not matter because he got all this into the Akashic record. he and his followers were reputedly a members of the Tat brotherhood who later migrated to the Masada and became the Essenes.

I'll be back with some other stuff later~just a late night story for now ;-)

Posted by: Prue Oct 5 2004, 12:01 AM
user posted image


This bust was labled Queen Tiya, the Elder Lady

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 5 2004, 08:21 AM
Akhenaten is principally famous for his religious reforms, where the polytheism of Egypt was to be supplanted by monotheism centered around Aten, the god of the solar disc. This was possibly a move to lessen the political power of the Priests. Now the Pharaoh, not the priesthood, was the sole link between the people and Aten which effectively ended the power of the various temples.

Akhenaten built a temple to his god Aten immediately outside the east gate of the temple of Amun at Karnak, but clearly the coexistence of the two cults could not last. He therefore proscribed the cult of Amun, closed the god's temples, took over the revenues. He then sent his officials around to destroy Amun's statues and to desecrate the worship sites. These actions were so contrary to the traditional that opposition arose against him. The estates of the great temples of Thebes, Memphis and Heliopolis reverted to the throne. Corruption grew out of the mismanagement of such large levies.

It was said that one day Akhenaten had a vision wherein he saw a sun disc between two mountains. He felt that God was guiding him to make change. He was shown the God, Aten, as the Sun Disk - the Light. He felt guided by Aten to build a city between the two mountains.

In the sixth year of his reign Akhenaten rejected the Gods of Thebes. They were never part of his childhood anyway since he had been shunned as a child. Akhenaten had declared for the first time in recorded that there was only one God - the concept of monotheism. Overnight he turned 2,000 years of Egyptian religious upside down...

(This is a really good site if you are interested in Akhenaten, Nefertiti, their children, and lots of pics.)

http://www.crystalinks.com/akhenaten.html

BJ



Posted by: Seralia Oct 5 2004, 08:58 AM
scratchinghead.gif I think that I read something like that somewhere Prue. There were two or three old books that I had read that had similar stories in them. I can't remember the names oft he books though.

There is a Tiya mentioned in some of the texts and she was one of Ramesses II sisters. If I remember correctly, Ramesses II had red hair, which may be another reason why members of the royal families chose to shave their heads and wear wigs.

Tiya was definitely a Queen and the daughter of Yuya and Tjuyu. Tjuyu, her mother was a descendent of Ahmose Nefertari and her father Yuya, may have been of Asiatic descent according to one account.

They had another daughter named Tiy who was Queen of Amenhotep III. Tiy was the mother of Akhenaton. Yuya and Tjuyu also had two sons who were named Anen and Ay.

Yuya and Tjuyu were also the Maternal Great Grandparents of Ankhesenamun.

QUOTE
Maternal Great Grandparents: Yuya and Tuya (both non-royal). Yuya has been sometimes characterized as a foreigner because of his unusual name, but I disagree with this. He was nonroyal, but held high religious post and was Commander of the King's horses, chariots, and stables. Tuya apparently was head of Amun's harem in Thebes and head of Min's harem in their home city of Akhmin. It is thought that Tuya was a sister of Queen Mutemwiya, and therefore a decendent of Queen Aahmose-Nefertari, the ancestor of all Tuthmosid Queens. The offspring of Yuya and Tuya were sons Anen and Ay, and a daughter Tiy.


http://www.angelfire.com/ne2/TiaDuat/genealogy.html

There is of course an Ay and Tiya mentioned by Melchizedek.

QUOTE
Lemuria, Atlantis, and The Naacal Mystery Schools 

About 80,000 years ago, a couple named Ay and Tiya achieved Ascension and founded the Naacal Mystery School in Lemuria - a gentle, magnificent empire that stretched from the Himalayas to way past Easter Island and portions of South America. Not long before the main continent of Lemuria sank, Ay and Tiya gathered over a thousand Immortal Masters and migrated to the island of Undal in Atlantis. They divided the island into four quadrants corresponding to the male-female/logical-intuitive functions of Mind and began projecting ten magnetic vortices in the Tree of Life pattern onto the main island of Atlantis. These magnetic 'hotspots' drew vast numbers of Lemurian migrants who settled around vortices that resonated with their own inner natures. Soon, cities grew over eight of the ten vortices. Two were left uninhabited because the masculine-logical energies they accentuated had yet to arise in the largely feminine-intuitive Lemurian consciousness.


http://www.xlibris.de/magickriver/FOL.htm





Posted by: Seralia Oct 5 2004, 09:19 AM
blink.gif Thanx for the image of the Skull Tex and Pupp. It is definitely an unusual specimin with a significantly larger brain capacity, probably around the 2000 cc range. Very similar to a Neanderthal skull and definitely human. The skull has all the right bones and sutures. It is very similar to Akhenaten's skull and doesn't show any evidence of deformation. The one difference that I just noticed with Akhenaten's skull is that the occipital bone, which is supposed to be on the back of the head is on the bottom. Very peculiar.

Actually... Now that I can see both skulls, both their occipital bones are not where they're supposed to be so they both appear to be very close in comparison.

user posted image
Akhenaten's skull


I finally found a good example of a cradle-board skull that came from China BTW.

user posted image
user posted image
user posted image

Posted by: Seralia Oct 5 2004, 10:05 AM
I was looking for a Neanderthal skull for comparison and came up with this interesting bit of information. whistling.gif

Neanderthal fraud discovered by Dr. Jack Cuozzo La Quina

QUOTE
In his book "Buried Alive - The startling truth about Neanderthal man" Dr. Jack Cuozzo shows how many Neanderthal fossils have been tampered with to support the theory of evolution.

This page will examine many of these skulls.

One of the many fraudulent things that people have done to the Neanderthal skulls is to reconstruct the lower jaw in a forward protruding position.

This is based on the preconceived notion, that Neanderthal was dimwitted, and ape-ish. The jaw is purposely manipulated to look this way in reconstruction’s, because that is how some ape jaws are aligned.

Of the thousands of people who have seen Neanderthal skulls in a museum, I wonder how many of them knew the jaw had been altered?

In his book on Neanderthal man titled: "Buried Alive: The startling truth about Neanderthal man", Dr. Jack Cuozzo reveals the truth about the Neanderthals jaw.

Dr. Cuozzo adds:

"The exact same thing happened with the famous La Chapelle-aux-Saints skull and jaws" (reference #1 pg. 40)

What effect did this change have? The manipulation totally changed the interpretation of the skull. When the jaw was placed in the correct position

"This was also a new non-ape position for the lower jaw." (reference #1, pg. 40).
With the jaw in the correct position it was clear that Neanderthal was not an ape man.

The La Quina V skull has also been altered.


http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/lemoustier.html

One of my sister's was working on the hypothesis that Neanderthals didn't die out but somehow managed to survive, due to their above normal brain capacity and blend in.

This is a comparison of a normal human child's skull to that of a Neanderthal child's skull:

http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/staff/zolli/CAP/Pictures/Neander+sapiens.jpg

Oh and it seems that Neanderthals had canibalistic tendencies. Either that or somebody else ate them.

Photographs for Moula Neanderthal Cannibalism Story
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/neandphotos.html

user posted image
user posted image

Here is a comparison of a normal human skull and a Neanderthal skull. Note the longer braincase and the tilt of the occipital bone. It would be more likely that the Egyptian royal clan were somehow related to the Neanderthals than normal humans.

QUOTE
The braincase in modern humans is relatively shorter, and the forehead rounder and higher. This is the result of the brain being housed higher-up and further forward in modern humans than in Neanderthals. This can be seen in the two photographs above. Track the plane of the forehead from the top of the orbits. The slope of the forehead for the modern human is nearly vertical, while there is a noticeably lower slope for the Neanderthal to the right.


http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/nead_sap_comp.html

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 5 2004, 10:18 AM
Seralia thanks for posting Akhenaton's skull for comparison; I think the similarity is remarkable. Well actually not that remarkable as Cyclone Covey has shown linguistic simitlarities in the Atakapan language of the Texas Gulf coast and Ancient Egyptian. The Atakapans were best represented by the abnormaly large and powerful Karankawas who rescued Cabeza De Vaca's shipwrecked crew on the Texas coast in the 1520's. These are people you might want to look at in relation to Giants in America although they are not the red haired giants of Nevada who were exterminatied by the Paiutes around 800 AD. These people, the Karankawas were well over six feet tall and their long bows could not be drawn by the average European. An early Texas account tells of a Karankawa shooting an arrow completely through a black bear at 600 yards and that story was by no means unique. The Karankawas were finally exterminated in the 1840's because of their practice of stealing children and eating them. This was not a practice limited to the Karankawas and the Tonkawas who were infamous for their non ritual cannibalism aided the destruction of the Comanches who shunned any form of cannibalism and were waging a genocidal war against the Tonkawa.

Now recently Federico Solorzano presented a fragment of Homo Erectus skull and jaw found at Lake Chapala, Mexico to a conference of anthropologists in September. This is not the first primitive skull to be found in the Americas and two others from Brazil were labeled hoaxes back in the Monte Verde debates. They are not hoaxes in my opinion and there are several sites such as the El Horno site in Mexico which produced 250,000 year old dates which ruined the careers of three people. These sites are now being reexaminined. Many such as the rejected Calico site are in the Mojave Desert of California. I will go into greater depth on these as this discussion progresses. We must start with a blank slate now because it has long been obvious that the present paradigm is intentionally false. I'm sorry I could not retrieve the Adena tablet but it had sunk too far back in the threads to access. I do have an Adena calender image I will send PuPP to post here that is even more impressive.

Mayslick Kentucky Calendar Stone

user posted image

Is Drumvalo Melchisedek the author of Keys to Enoch? And do you recommend that book as containing valid information?

Posted by: Seralia Oct 5 2004, 10:28 AM
This almost reads like a description of the british Royal Family. rolleyes.gif

Neanderthals Reconstructed - Not Human Ancestors!

LONDON August 1, 2001 (Reuters) - Computer graphics of Neanderthals based on ancient fossils show they were very different from early humans and did not mix with them, Swiss scientists said Wednesday.

The virtual reality images of reconstructed Neanderthal skulls have distinctive features established very early in childhood which did not develop gradually through life, suggesting they coexisted but did not breed with each other.

"This is a strong argument for early separation on the species level, which means they had isolated populations. There might have been some accidental inbreeding but certainly not a big exchange of genes,'' said Christoph Zollikofer, a neurobiologist at the University of Zurich.

Zollikofer and Marcia Ponce de Leon, computer scientist and anthropologist at the university, created virtual reality models of Neanderthal skulls from 16 fossils of the creatures who lived in Europe, North Africa and Asia between 125,000 and 40,000 years ago.

They wanted to compare their development from childhood to that of early and modern humans.

They found that the distinctive features of the Neanderthal skull and face were there by the age of two years.

"We wanted to find out the basic development in Neanderthals in comparison to humans. It was a surprise to find how homogeneous these species behaved during development,'' Zollikofer added in a telephone interview.

The research, reported in the science journal Nature, supports earlier genetic evidence showing Neanderthals are too distant genetically to have been an ancestor of modern humans.

"We think that together with the genetic data ... it is quite reasonable to think that these are really two different species separated at least half a million years ago,'' said Zollikofer.

To construct the virtual reality images the scientists used computer tomography of the Neanderthal fossils to get three dimensional data and customized computer software to create the images.

"We now have a dynamic approach to the morphology (the study of forms). We can say something about how an extinct species developed from birth to adulthood,'' Zollikofer said.

Neanderthals differ from anatomically modern Homo sapiens in a suite of cranial features:

1. A low but elongated and broadened braincase

2. Characteristic cranial suprastructures such as a supraorbital torus, a small mastoid process, a large juxtamastoid eminence, and a suprainiac fossa

3. A large face with rounded orbits, an wide nasal aperture, an inflated paranasal region and an anteroposteriorly slanting infraorbital region

4. A mandible with a receding chin region and a retromolar space in adult individuals

On The Web:
Computer-assisted Paleoanthropology at the University of Zurich - http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/staff/zolli/CAP/Main_face.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~exonews/xtra/neanderthals.htm

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 5 2004, 11:04 AM
PuPP the Adena calender stone is in your mail. When it is posted be sure to note the similarity to the ivory head of a woman and the Venus of Wilendorf figurines from the European Paleolithic.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 5 2004, 11:13 AM
They make Neanderthal appear to be as primative as possible but in reality, they were quite advanced.

Feature Article - September 1997
by Do-While Jones

The Neanderthal Problem

QUOTE
The more scientists learned about Neanderthal man, the more they realized he did not fit in with their theory very well. Apes supposedly got smarter as their brains gradually evolved in size from about 400 cc to modern man's 1350 cc brain.5 It was difficult to explain how a Neanderthal man, with his 1740 cc brain6, fit into this process.

The Neanderthal skeletons were found in graves with hands neatly folded, surrounded by fossilized pollen. This is a pretty clear indication that they were buried with flowers in some sort of funeral ceremony. Only humans do that. Furthermore, they found tools (and possibly a musical instrument7) associated with some of the Neanderthal remains. Every indication was that he was as fully human as Homo sapiens (modern man).

But worst of all was the time problem. According to the evolutionists' dating, Homo sapiens supposedly evolved 100,000 years ago.8 Some people even claim there is evidence of Homo sapiens in Australia 116,000 to 176,000 years ago.9 Neanderthal man supposedly lived from 36,000 to 75,000 years ago,10 or maybe as long as 82,000 years ago.11 Homo sapiens could not have evolved from Neanderthals if Homo sapiens were here first. Even if you assume that Neanderthals existed more than 176,000 years ago, but their fossils just haven't been discovered yet, that's still a problem because the theory requires the inferior species to die out for the superior species to evolve.


http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v1i12f.htm


Oh would you look at this. Red hair and Neanderthal charictoristics in the Egyptian Royal family. scoping.gif

Redheads 'are neanderthal'

Monday April 16, 2001
The Times, London

RED hair may be the genetic legacy of Neanderthals, scientists believe. Researchers at the John Radcliffe Institute of Molecular Medicine in Oxford say that the so-called "ginger gene" which gives people red hair, fair skin and freckles could be up to 100,000 years old.

They claim that their discovery points to the gene having originated in Neanderthal man who lived in Europe for 200,000 years before Homo sapien settlers, the ancestors of modern man, arrived from Africa about 40,000 years ago.

Rosalind Harding, the research team leader, said: "The gene is certainly older than 50,000 years and it could be as old as 100,000 years.

"An explanation is that it comes from Neanderthals." It is estimated that at least 10 percent of Scots have red hair and a further 40 per cent carry the gene responsible, which could account for their once fearsome reputation as fighters.

Neanderthals have been characterised as migrant hunters and violent cannibals who probably ate most of their meat raw. They were taller and stockier than Homo sapiens, but with shorter limbs, bigger faces and noses, receding chins and low foreheads.

The two species overlapped for a period of time and the Oxford research appears to suggests that they must have successfully interbred for the "ginger gene" to survive. Neanderthals became extinct about 28,000 years ago, the last dying out in southern Spain and southwest France.

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/hominids/redheads.htm

I'll drink to that. cheers.gif

Posted by: Seralia Oct 5 2004, 11:22 AM
Sureeeeeeeeeee they didn't interbreed. rolleyes.gif

N.Y. Times April 25, 1999

Discovery Suggests Humans Are a Bit Neanderthal

By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Neanderthals and modern humans not only coexisted for thousands of years long ago, as anthropologists have established, but now their little secret is out: they also cohabited.

At least that is the interpretation being made by paleontologists who have examined the 24,500-year-old skeleton of a young boy discovered recently in a shallow grave in Portugal. Bred in the boy's bones seemed to be a genetic heritage part Neanderthal, part early modern Homo sapiens. He was a hybrid, they concluded, and the first strong physical evidence of interbreeding between the groups in Europe.

"This skeleton demonstrates that early modern humans and Neanderthals are not all that different," said Dr. Erik Trinkaus, a paleoanthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis. "They intermixed, interbred and produced offspring."

Although some scientists disputed the interpretation, other scientists who study human origins said in interviews last week that the findings were intriguing, probably correct and certain to provoke debate and challenges to conventional thinking about the place of Neanderthals in human evolution.

Neanderthals and modern humans presumably were more alike than different, not a separate species or even subspecies, but two groups who viewed each other as appropriate mates.

Recent DNA research had appeared to show that the two people were unrelated and had not interbred. Neanderthals lived in Europe and western Asia from 300,000 years ago until the last of them disappeared on the Iberian peninsula about 28,000 years ago. In the prevailing theory today, modern humans arose in Africa less than 200,000 years ago and appeared in great numbers in Europe, starting about 40,000 years ago.

The new discovery could, at long last, resolve the question of what happened to the Neanderthals, the stereotypical stocky, heavy-browed "cave men." They may have merged with modern humans, called Cro-Magnons, who appear to have arrived in Europe with a superior tool culture. In that case, some Neanderthal genes survive in most Europeans and people of European descent.

The skeleton of the boy, buried with strings of marine shells and painted with red ocher, was uncovered in December by Portuguese archeologists led by Dr. Joo Zilhao, director of the Institute of Archeology in Lisbon. The discovery was made in the Lapedo Valley near Leiria, 90 miles north of Lisbon.

Realizing the potential significance, Dr. Zilhao called in Dr. Trinkaus, an authority on Neanderthal paleontology, who went to Lisbon and examined the bones in January.

The boy, who was about 4 years old at death, had the prominent chin and other facial characteristics of a fully modern human. But his stocky body and short legs were those of a Neanderthal. Dr. Trinkaus compared the limb proportions with Neanderthal skeletons, including some children. He said he was then sure of the skeleton's implications.

"It's a complex mosaic, which is what you get when you have a hybrid," Dr. Trinkaus said. "This is the first definite evidence of admixture between Neanderthals and European early modern humans."

The age of the skeleton, determined by radiocarbon dating, showed that full Neanderthals had apparently been extinct for at least 4,000 years before the boy was born. "This is no love child," Dr. Trinkaus said, meaning that this was not evidence of a rare mating but a descendant of generations of Neanderthal-Cro-Magnon hybrids.

Dr. Trinkaus and Dr. Zilhao have completed a more detailed scientific report to be published soon in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. DNA tests on the skeleton have not yet been done.

Other Neanderthal specialists reacted favorably to the discovery. Dr. Fred H. Smith of Northern Illinois University in De Kalb called it "very convincing and absolutely right."

Dr. Smith noted that he had come upon other skeletal material in central Europe that raised the possibility of interbreeding between the groups. Though most scholars in the field will probably accept the possibility of interbreeding, he said, a significant number will probably not.

The more ardent exponents of the out-of-Africa hypothesis of modern human origins may be holdouts. They have argued that early modern humans all emerged from Africa and wiped out the Neanderthal population in Europe. Whether the relationship was fraternal or genocidal has been much debated. But many have argued that the two groups were distinct, with humans displacing and probably slaughtering their rivals.

Dr. Chris Stringer, an expert on Neanderthals at the Museum of Natural History in London, who is a leader of the out-of-Africa forces, said that he was willing to consider the Portuguese findings with an open mind. He told The Associated Press that the current evidence was not sufficient to convince him of Dr. Trinkhaus's hybrid interpretation.

An alternative theory, known as regional continuity, holds that the earliest human ancestors arose in Africa and spread around the world more than a million years ago. Modern humans then emerged in different regions through separate evolution and interbreeding. A leading advocate of this theory is Dr. Milford Wolpoff, a paleontologist at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

"This find should be devastating to the out-of-Africa people," Dr. Wolpoff said. "It shows their theory doesn't work, at least in Europe. And it shows that fundamentally, Neanderthals are the same species we are and they contributed their genes to European ancestry."

By now, scientists said, only a small fraction of Neanderthal genes have survived, the European gene pool having been further mixed through migrations during the spread of agriculture and invasions from the east.

But Dr. Wolpoff cautioned that it would take more than one skeleton to tell the effects of interbreeding apart from ordinary evolutionary changes, the result of genes modifying in response to environmental stresses.

Dr. Alan Mann, a specialist in human evolution at the University of Pennsylvania, called the Portuguese hybrid skeleton "some of the most important data we ever got about Neanderthals in human evolution," but said he was not sure that interbreeding had been established.

Dr. Trinkaus said the discovery "refutes strict replacement models of modern human origins" and also seemed to undermine interpretations of recent DNA research. Two years ago, Dr. Svante Paabo of the University of Munich in Germany, reported that a study of the genetic material DNA from Neanderthal remains and living humans indicated that Neanderthals did not interbreed with the modern humans.

At the time, scientists said the DNA results reinforced the idea that Neanderthals were a separate species from modern humans. If the new findings are correct, though, the two groups were probably more like different races of the same species.

"The problem with the DNA research was the interpretation," Dr. Trinkaus said. "It's demonstrably wrong. All that they showed is that Neanderthal biology is outside the range of living humans, not modern Homo sapiens back then."

Dr. Alan Templeton, an evolutionary geneticist at Washington University, said that some hybridization occurs without the effects showing up, for example, in mitochondrial DNA, which is passed only through the mother. "But if you look deep enough in evolutionary time, you find a lot of interbreeding," Dr. Templeton said. "That is what humanity is all about: we interbreed a lot."

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html


Posted by: Seralia Oct 5 2004, 11:44 AM
Neanderthals really didn't look that different.

user posted image

QUOTE
THIS COMPUTERIZED RECONSTRUCTION of a Neanderthal child's skull and face was generated by computer scientists at the University of Zurich by using computer graphics newly developed for this purpose.


http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news267.htm

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 5 2004, 12:02 PM
Seralia I'm glad you posted that last part because I was going to point out the obvious. If it is possible to interbreed humans wiil interbreed. And since Neanderthal was clearly human and not all that different it is inevitable that groups interbred. The Adena are the robust first wave of the North American civilizations that we have clear undisputed evidence of. Whenever you hear "robust" in anthropology always think "Big, and heavy boned". Now what is peculiar, I have found that when ever you find instances of these "Robust" people in North America you also have "Gracile" people which means practically speaking "pygmies'. I have a few of their artifacts photographed and they are contrary to the assertions of todays "experts" not suiltable for hunting large animals without poison on them. Any archery enthusiast will tell you arrows kill by exsanquination, that is they bleed the victim to death. Now these tiny paleoindian points won't even pierce a buffalo hide and probably not a camel or horse either. Yet the stories of the Comanches about the "Little People" state that their little darts never failed to be fatal. Sounds very much like people of the Ituri Forest and Kalahari Desert to me. I'm glad we have some people here deeper into osteology than I am. This thread is very educational for me. balance.gif

Posted by: Mark Oct 5 2004, 03:19 PM
Wow, I am always impressed and amazed when I come back to this thread.
Seralia, you are awesome!

Prue, thanks for joining in and contributing.

Tex, I got the email and didn't realize it was from you, so you can ignore my reply.

I inserted the Calendar stone into your post.

Here's a side by side comparison of...

Sanders Mound Texas Skull and Akhenaten Skull
user posted imageuser posted image

Seralia, those skulls found in china sure look different.

I'm going to throw in one of my whacky theories. We are all genetic results of interbreeding and creation from advanced beings who needed a strong slave race to mine the earth for minerals and to build the monuments.

There were several various species created, negroid, caucasoid and mongoloid seem to be the 3 dominant ones.

In reference to the little people - pygmies and such.

Think about this... if you were small and weak, wouldn't you need a strong and large race to perform all of the laborous tasks for you?

Just a theory mind you, carry on!

And thank you all for your wonderful contributions!








Posted by: Seralia Oct 5 2004, 03:30 PM
Ah yes... the paleoindian points. Normally such points would be ineffective via a bow and arrow delivery system without poison, but I think it was the Aztecs that had another way of launching small projectile pointed objects at a velocity that could do a number on spanish armour.

Physics and the Atlatl

QUOTE
An atlatl is a thrower for propelling a flexible dart through the air. The archaeological record shows that the atlatl was in use some 30000 years ago in parts of North Africa. It was subsequently used in Europe, Australia and the New World. Atlatl is an Aztec word, and there were reports that Aztec warriors used darts that could penetrate Spanish armour. Woomera is the Australian Aborigine word for the atlatl. Both throwers effectively increase the length of the throwing arm and hence the speed and range of the projectile.

'Then they described the weapons which the Mexicans used: their two-pronged javelins which they hurled with a spear thrower and would pierce any armour...'

Bernal Diaz, The Conquest of New Spain


http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0031-9120/36/5/602

QUOTE
The Aztecs called the system - the throwing stick and dart - an Atlatl. Bernal Diaz, a conquistador who wrote the book The Conquest of New Spain about his experiences, called the Atlatl the most feared of all Aztecs weapons.  The darts, he said, easily penetrated armor, and many Spaniards died that way, pierced through the chest like so many metallic insects on a display board.


http://www.atlatl.com/article1.html

QUOTE
The oldest atlatls in the world date back over 25,000 years in N.W Africa. The late Upper Paleolithic Magdalenian peoples of Europe made beautifully carved specimens from antler and bone 17,000 years ago.

Immigrants from Siberia likely brought the atlatl to North America, where it was used to hunt large animals by at least 10,000-12,000 years ago. Atlatl spears were likely tipped with the large flaked stone points that archaeologists find associated with remains of now-extinct mammoth and bison, as well as other large game animals.


http://www.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/hhistory/atlatl/atlatl.html

They apparently did have some type of high velocity weapon.

Neanderthal Skull With "Bullet Hole" Behind Ear

An Auroch is an large, extinct "buffalo like" animal. Many skeletons of this extinct type have been found in Europe.

What is remarkable about one in particular in the Moscow Museum of Paleontology is that it has a bullet hole in its skull. The hole is round, without radial cracks that would result from slower projectiles like spears and arrows. The only known projectile that leaves this kind of smooth, round hole without radial cracks is a bullet because of its velocity.

I mention the auroch first because of a possible objection that can be raised. If it is indeed a bullet hole, perhaps the skeleton was shot many, many years after the animals' death. The problem here is that the auroch survived the wound and lived long enough for unmistakable calcification to appear at the site of the injury.

How did an animal that became extinct supposedly thousands and thousands of years ago come by a "modern" bullet hole in its skull

user posted image

A similar round, clean, smooth hole without radial cracks was found in the skull of a "Neanderthal" man found in the early 1920's in Rhodesia. The man supposedly died over 40,000 years ago.

user posted image

The skull is currently at the British Museum. The skull was found more than fifty feet below ground level. In addition to the hole consistent only with that made by a bullet, the other side of the skull was blown out from the inside.

http://www.s8int.com/page4.html

user posted image

QUOTE
Originally classified as Neanderthal, this fossil is quit interesting since it has a hole on its right side that has been identified as a bullet hole complete with exist wound on the under side of the skull. The bullet hole was the result of an ancient skull being shot while siding on the ground, such a shot would have shattered a dry skull. The wound had to have been made while the person was alive and was probably the cause of death. The leaves two possibilities:

1.  Ancient man had guns.
2. This is the recent skull of a deformed individual.
Both eliminate this skull and other heidelbergensis skulls as evidence for evolution.


http://genesismission.4t.com/transition/primates.html


Posted by: Prue Oct 5 2004, 05:20 PM
Seralia you truly are amazing thank you for responding to my post. With Tex and the rest of you all in here I feel like I am in the company of the mental monoliths of skull information. I'll learn a lot in here. Thanks! handclap.gif

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 5 2004, 07:38 PM
Seralia, you are quite correct in your information on the atlatl; its power exceeds that of most primitive bows and it was not equaled until the advent of the Longbow(found among the Karankawas and other Gulf Coast tribes), the composite laminated bows of the Plains Horse Cultures(both Old World Scythians and North American Comanche, Kiowa, Osage etc). The bow was not used in Texas and the southwest until around 700 AD and the atlatl was used well into the 16th century. On the other hand the paleoindian points (which are something of a specialty of mine) are quite large compared to even a Plains buffalo point. Most laymen mistakenly call an archaic dart point a spear point but the dart used with the atlatl is somewhere between a very large arrow and a very small spear. The paleoindian varieties are almost all socketed affairs meant to stay in the victim like an Eskimo harpoon. The socketed section about a foot long could quickly be reloaded onto the main shaft.

The so called "bird points" are the size of my little fingernail yet exactly styled like the massive dart points. I have often suspected that they may have been propelled by blowguns which were still in use among the Cherokees in historic times. Arrow poisons were quite common and the one which compares favorably with curarare is nicotine concentrate used in the Mississippi Valley for probably thousands of years. Now these little artifacts are not limited to points; I have seen tiny ax heads too from Lake Hugo, photos from New Mexico where "hives" of tiny dwellings exist of the "Ant People" with more of these tiny axes, and finally I have handled an example brought back from the Libyan desert which is identical to others from Eastern Oklahoma.

In conclusion, Seralia, I think there is a whole body of evidence for the existence of a very small statured group of flesh and blood people, all over the world. And do not mistake small size for weakness. All accounts I have gathere indicate these were extraordinary miners and quarrymen with strength equal to their larger neighbors. In addition I suspect they had advanced techniques for manipulating physical matter. bop.gif

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 5 2004, 08:15 PM
On the drygulched aurochs and Neanderthal, let me play devil's advocate here for a moment because these have intrigued me for many years. Let's consider the sling first because Leakey found evidence of the use of bolas at Lake Turkana by the ealiest humans. Now a bola is nothing but a captive stone sling. The ordinary sling made from fishing twine and the tongue of a shoe is quite adequate to kill a calf as my grandfather found to his dismay when he slung a piece of road gravel at a calf to scare it back to the herd and killed it as surely as if he had shot it with a rifle. The stone hit behind the ear and the yearling dropped without a sound instantly. Now if you take your time and make a bicone such as the later Greeks used, you have a missile that can attain hundreds of feet per second. As the lithic technology shows the Paleolithic people were genius level in their media. If you've seen the petroglyphs from the caves in France (Tres Freres?) you know the Cro Magnon were far more sophisticated than previously thought, why not Neanderthal as well?

Hypothesis two: A crossbow device using a wooden firehardened projectile. The Montagnard of the Annamese Highlands had them why not the Paleolithic People? Another precoscious invention like the airfoil called a boomerang?

Hypothesis three. firearms age good old boys taking target practice on some old bones they found on the prairie?

Hypothesis four: Unlucky meteorite victims.

Hypothesis five: Buffalo Gal's Discount Time Safaris; Get Your Buff or the Trips on Us. Nasty Neanderthal discovers too late that there's no free lunch at Buffalo Gal's Camp. bop.gif

Posted by: JenThom Oct 5 2004, 08:45 PM
handclap.gif Very impressive work Seralia.

One thing that I picked up on while comparing the Sanders Mound Texas skull and Akhenaten's skull to that of a Neanderthal skull is that Akhenaten's skull has a well pronunced brow ridge like that of a Neanderthal skull. I would almost tend to think that they were of the same or at least very similar species. The Texas skull, however, has a more modern appearance with a less defined brow ridge. More along the lines oF Cro-Magnon than Neanderthal. Perhaps a hybrid of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal.

And yes there was such a thing. smile.gif

Neandertal-Cro-Magnon Hybrid? April 29, 1999

by Spencer P.M. Harrington

Analysis of the skeletal remains of this four-year-old boy has revealed that he may be a Neandertal-Cro-Magnon hybrid. (Courtesy João Zilhão) [LARGER IMAGE]

Analysis of the skeletal remains of a four-year-old child buried in a Portuguese rock-shelter 25,000 to 24,500 years ago has yielded startling evidence that early modern humans and Neandertals may have interbred. While the boy's prominent chin, tooth size, and pelvic measurements marked him as a Cro-Magnon, or fully modern human, his stocky body and short legs indicate Neandertal heritage, says Erik Trinkaus, a paleoanthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis. Interbreeding could answer the vexed question of the fate of the Neandertals, the last of whom disappeared from the Iberian Peninsula 28,000 years ago.

Trinkaus was summoned to Portugal after archaeologists searching for rock art in the Lapedo Valley, 85 miles north of Lisbon, found the burial this past December. João Zilhão of the University of Lisbon, the excavation's director, described the skeleton's preservation as "miraculous"--only the skull and right arm were badly broken. The boy is the first Palaeolithic burial ever excavated on the Iberian Peninsula, and among the oldest modern humans ever scientifically excavated.

Trinkaus, who compared the boy's limb proportions with those of Neandertal skeletons, including some children, says that the body is the first definite evidence of a mixture between Neandertal and early humans. While full Neandertals are thought to have been extinct for 4,000 years before the boy was born, he appears to be a descendant of generations of Neandertal-Cro-Magnon hybrids. Neandertals belong to our species and contributed their genes to European ancestry, he says.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/neanderkid.html

Cro-Magnon skulls were larger than modern man but nearly identical in shape with the same less defined brow ridge. The person that this skull belonged to had a severe fungal infection that deformed the front of ths skull. scratchinghead.gif

user posted image



The Conehead skulls, on the other hand, seem to represent an entirely diffrent species but it is possible that they interbred with the more Americanized Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon creating a being with a much larger brain case.

Posted by: JenThom Oct 5 2004, 09:18 PM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Oct 5 2004, 03:30 PM)
They apparently did have some type of high velocity weapon.

I would have to agree with you on that one Seralia. Look what I found.

Ancient Egypt priest was killed with bullet?

07/10/2004 20:18

The employees of the British Museum conducted the first in history three-dimensional scanning of the mummy from Ancient Egypt.
Priest Nesperennub was buried in Fivi about 2,800 years ago. This is one of the most well-known mummies from the collection of the British Museum in London.

Earlier, the mummies were studied by X-ray tomography, but so far, nobody received three-dimensional computer map of the mummy, layer by layer. For this purpose, about 1,500 X-ray "cuts" were produced, and they were transformed in three-dimensional model by computer.

Now the museum visitors can see the inner part of the model after putting on special three-dimensional computer glasses. The skeleton of the priest is very well seen, it is even seen that one of his teeth was aching.

In addition, there is a round hole in Nesperennub"s skull as if he died of bullet.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/13345_mummy.html

Posted by: JenThom Oct 5 2004, 09:26 PM
Nesperennub was a real egyptian and did actually have a mysterious small hole in his skull.

Egyptian Mummy Unwrapped in 3D

By Rossella Lorenzi, Discovery News

QUOTE
The hologram-like pictures reveal amazing details. Crowned with a ceramic bowl — probably accidentally glued by the embalmers — Nesperennub had an abscess at the base of one of his teeth, and a mysterious small hole, like a bullet hole, near his brain.


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040628/mummy.html

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 5 2004, 09:51 PM
JenThom, by 800 BC you are getting well into the age of the polesling. which uses a long pole to give mechanical advantage to the already powerful rawhide sling. These bicones I mentioned are cast lead double cones like two rifle bullets joined. Their use was integral to the mercenary armies of the Greeks as detailed in Thucydides' "The March Upcountry" which by the way, also describes pyramid structures made of stone containing shells. I'm not certain of the exact velocity achieved but I have no doubt it was equal to say a 600 feet per second .45 pistol bullet.

If you have read Chris Dunn's 'Giza Power Plant" as well as David Childress's collections of technology of the ancients, a high velocity weapon used in Egypt would not be at all surprising. Now a high velocity weapon in the last glacial maximum is a different matter. Still we must not underestimate the ancients. For instance I saw a pneumatic firestarter made of bamboo still in use among Pacific Islanders as I recall. It was elegant in its efficient simplicity yet it showed a deep understanding of physics. This is similar to the little convective ice trays the ancient Egyptians made and the stone mirrors of Catal Hoyuk 9000 years ago. bouncemirror.gif

Posted by: JenThom Oct 5 2004, 10:32 PM
I've read a little bit into the use of sling shots and similar types of weapons and the projectiles had a velocity that was said to be nearly equal to projectiles fired by 18th century black powder weapons Tex so it is not impossible to imagine that a small stone could achieve enough velocity to pierce a human skull. Depending on the type of stone used, a stone would most certainly make a more deadly projectile than a lead ball. bop.gif I've played around with those wrist-rocket slingshots and those things sure do shoot little stones and metal balls pretty far and would probably generate enough power to make them penetrate human bone. rolleyes.gif I'll have to see if I can borow an old deer skull and take a few shots at it using stones and see what happens.


Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 5 2004, 11:05 PM
JenThom, be sure to get some pictures of your results. I always like to see real life experiments like that. There was a film which I only saw stills of taken in Africa where some elephants were being culled using Clovis pointed darts and atlatls made by Bruce Bradley a flint knapper who has worked with Dennis Stanford on analysing many sites. I'm sure it was not a film really wanted to see any more than the one of Kung Bushmen killing a giraffe with poison arrows after apologising to it for taking its life. I don't oppose killing an animal if you really need to eat it or protect your other animals but I can't envision killing an elephant humanely with a dart. Your method sounds better since the animals already dead. A broad scapula bone would probably tell you what you needed to know too. Around here you can turn up a cowskull or bones in almost any pasture. BTW those lead cones were hardened by dropping them into cold water while they were hot. Still, I think you are correct that a quartz pebble would probably penetrate better. bop.gif

Posted by: JenThom Oct 5 2004, 11:11 PM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Sep 27 2004, 10:31 PM)
The profile of the skull can be seen in the below image and the skull itself is nearly identical to what I would expect the skulls of both Kiya and Ankhesenamun to have looked like.


Here is a good example of one of Akhenaten's daughters Seralia. The shape of her skull is very similar to those two images of the wide elongated skull that you posted earlier.

user posted image

And this is a rare top view of two of the elongated pre-Incan skulls.

user posted image

Notice the lack of a brow ridge on both of the skulls that I mentioned earlier.

This is a really unusual one.

user posted image

This one doesn't have a brow ridge but has an almost normally proportioned occipital bone that is just where it should be. However, the parietal lobes (?) are blown way out of proportion. blink.gif One thing that does seem to be missing though is the suture(?) that divides the parietal lobes. No way that this could be a normal human skull that was deformed by the cradle-board method.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 5 2004, 11:50 PM
I have found this entire thread to be INTENSELY interesting. Thank you all for presenting what you've found. I have to say that when these folks said they had a headache, they weren't kidding! bricks.gif

BJ

Posted by: Mark Oct 5 2004, 11:57 PM
My word, we got some excelant stuff still coming in.

I cannot keep up with it all. But at least I can look at all of the photos.

JenThom, the final large head you posted is so huge. One of the biggest I have seen yet. And those other 2 are pretty large too.

Does it look really old to you? As I was looking at it, for some reason it just didn't look that old. Same as another skull in this thread somewhere.

I'm no bone expert but don't skulls usually show some weathering when they are very old? Maybe some are still around. Top Hats - 1800s

heh just a thought.

Thanks again to you all for this wonderful thread. It's a gold mine of information and awesome photos.

This type of information should be in school childrens textbooks by the 6th grade.


Posted by: Wahya Oct 6 2004, 05:10 AM
We have legends of a 'little people' called the Yunwi Tsundi who were said to dwell in secluded areas of the mountains.

In old times we would make miniature copies of our tools, clothing, weapons, and pottery and leave them at places for them as offerings to let us pass through their areas.

Chimney Rock in North Carolina is one of the places it is said they had a hidden village.


Perhaps some of the tiny tools and weapons that have been found were offerings once.


Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 6 2004, 05:49 AM
Wahya thanks for that information. The Choctaws and Comanches didn't have such cordial relationships with the Little People but sometimes the Choctaw shamans are "chosen" by the Little People. I was told of a number of local incidents involving the Little People fairly recently and of the place where they are most likely to be encountered. An anglo woman told me of an incident not far from here which sounds suspiciously like the Little People. The "Big People" are definitely around here with no doubts what so ever. There is a woman north of Durant who puts food out for them and one of her friends is claimed to have spoken with them in Comanche. That last struck me as very strange given the way Comanches are (heh,heh,heh). However, both groups large and small are obviously back in greater numbers in recent years. Some have hinted it is because of the approach of the Sixth World. The Lakota say that seeing the Big People is a sign to mend your ways. If so, a lot of ways need mending here on the Red River. bouncefire.gif

Posted by: Wahya Oct 6 2004, 06:03 AM
We have legends about Big People too. Slant Eyes and Stone Coat are the most well known, but there are lesser known tales of Wars between groups of them like the Red Beards and the Black Beards.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 6 2004, 08:50 PM
QUOTE (Tex Arcana @ Oct 5 2004, 10:18 AM)
Seralia thanks for posting Akhenaton's skull for comparison; I think the similarity is remarkable. Well actually not that remarkable as Cyclone Covey has shown linguistic simitlarities in the Atakapan language of the Texas Gulf coast and Ancient Egyptian.

I do know a little something about ancient linguistics and there are quite a few ancient European words mixed in with the languages of some tribes all throughout the Americas. In New England particular, there are quite a few similarities between native languages and ancient Phoenecian, Basque, Egyptian and an old form of Scottish Gaelic. There are also a lot of place names in New England that were thought to be Native in origin but some recent studies have found that quite a few of them can be easily translated using a Scottish/Gaelic language dictionary. I'm not sure about the language, but some words can be broken down into individual letters and each letter in the word becomes a word itself.


QUOTE
The Atakapans were best represented by the abnormaly large and powerful Karankawas who rescued Cabeza De Vaca's shipwrecked crew on the Texas coast in the 1520's. These are people you might want to look at in relation to Giants in America although they are not the red haired giants of Nevada who were exterminatied by the Paiutes around 800 AD. These people, the Karankawas were well over six feet tall and their long bows could not be drawn by the average European. An early Texas account tells of a Karankawa shooting an arrow completely through a black bear at 600 yards and that story was by no means unique. The Karankawas were finally exterminated in the 1840's because of their practice of stealing children and eating them. This was not a practice limited to the Karankawas and the Tonkawas who were infamous for their non ritual cannibalism aided the destruction of the Comanches who shunned any form of cannibalism and were waging a genocidal war against the Tonkawa.


I did a little looking into the Karankawas and they were all over six feet tall and their bows stood just as tall as they did. They had arrows that were three feet long.
They also adorned their bodies with tatoos and practiced body piercing.

QUOTE
The age and origin of these Indians has not been fully established. It is believed by some scholars the Karankawa may be related to a tribe of giants found on the Coast of California. There are other scholars that believe they may have been related to a group of aborigines who inhabited the Texas Big Bend area thousands of years ago and they go on to tie them in with the Abilene man, the oldest known type of human to reside in Texas. There's another viewpoint that the Karankawa were related to the Caribe Tribes of the West Indies, based on similarity of language, the size of their bodies, and both tribes had "barkless dogs". It is believed that they may have migrated to Florida, where they were driven out by other tribes to Louisiana, then to Trinity Bay area and then driven along the Texas coast where no one else lived. The word Karankawa translated in their language means "dog lover".

The speech of the Karankawa belongs generally to the Coahiltecan family found to the south west of them. The Karankawa had much in common with the Coahuiltecan, Tonkawa, and the East Texas Caddoan Tribes.


http://www.thisoldappliance.com/indians.html


QUOTE
Now recently Federico Solorzano presented a fragment of Homo Erectus skull and jaw found at Lake Chapala, Mexico to a conference of anthropologists in September. This is not the first primitive skull to be found in the Americas and two others from Brazil were labeled hoaxes back in the Monte Verde debates. They are not hoaxes in my opinion and there are several sites such as the El Horno site in Mexico which produced 250,000 year old dates which ruined the careers of three people. These sites are now being reexaminined.


I read quite a bit of information about the 250,000 year old site and there was a considerable amount of controversy about it and I did see images of a few of the artifacts from there including a piece of animal bone of some kind which one linguistic expert thought had a recognizable ancient language written on it.

QUOTE
Many such as the rejected Calico site are in the Mojave Desert of California. I will go into greater depth on these as this discussion progresses. We must start with a blank slate now because it has long been obvious that the present paradigm is intentionally false. I'm sorry I could not retrieve the Adena tablet but it had sunk too far back in the threads to access. I do have an Adena calender image I will send PuPP to post here that is even more impressive.


I agree with with you that the present paradigm is false Tex and know for a fact that itemsthat did not fit that paradigm were intentionally discarded or hidden away especially in New England. There's lots of evidence of pre-columbian sea-faring cultures having been in America that most American archaeologists are still refusing to look at or even take seriously. Where I live a lot of archaeologists would rather get paid off by greedy land developers than to do any actual archaeological research. sweating.gif

That calender image is impressive BTW.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 6 2004, 09:08 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Oct 5 2004, 03:19 PM)
I'm going to throw in one of my whacky theories. We are all genetic results of interbreeding and creation from advanced beings who needed a strong slave race to mine the earth for minerals and to build the monuments.

There were several various species created, negroid, caucasoid and mongoloid seem to be the 3 dominant ones.

In reference to the little people - pygmies and such.

Think about this... if you were small and weak, wouldn't you need a strong and large race to perform all of the laborous tasks for you?

Just a theory mind you, carry on!

And thank you all for your wonderful contributions!

You're theory isn't wacky at all PuPP. On the contrary it makes a lot of sense. The only thing that I would have to correct you on is the number of dominent races as being four and not three. They were Red, White, Black and Yellow according to quite a number of legends worldwide. Each race had a direction and a color if I remember it correctly. scratchinghead.gif As to where they originated from, there are some legends that one or more of the races came from elsewhere. Some people even claim to have come from the stars. As for us being slave labor for someone else, it does seem that we spent a lot of time in the desert building monuments and digging for gold and perhaps we're still working for them and don't even know it. Working a 9 to 5 job 5 to 7 days a week barely making enough to survive isn't really much different than building a pyramid in the deseert. wacko.gif

Posted by: Seralia Oct 6 2004, 10:00 PM
QUOTE (JenThom @ Oct 5 2004, 08:45 PM)
handclap.gif Very impressive work Seralia.

One thing that I picked up on while comparing the Sanders Mound Texas skull and Akhenaten's skull to that of a Neanderthal skull is that Akhenaten's skull has a well pronunced brow ridge like that of a Neanderthal skull. I would almost tend to think that they were of the same or at least very similar species. The Texas skull, however, has a more modern appearance with a less defined brow ridge. More along the lines oF Cro-Magnon than Neanderthal. Perhaps a hybrid of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal.

Good catch JenThom.

You're right about the similarities between the skull's of Egyptian Royalty and Neanderthal. The brow ridge is a dead give away. The Neanderthal were a mysterious race that had an exceptionally larger brain capacity as well as superior strength and were found to have the same level of dexterity as modern man. There has also been some talk of them still having been alive long after they were thought to have become extinct and it is not impossible to think that they had interbred with an even more advanced race that increased their brain capacity even farther than it already was.

QUOTE
This one doesn't have a brow ridge but has an almost normally proportioned occipital bone that is just where it should be. However, the parietal lobes (?) are blown way out of proportion.  One thing that does seem to be missing though is the suture(?) that divides the parietal lobes. No way that this could be a normal human skull that was deformed by the cradle-board method.


That skull is definitely unusual and it does have the occipital and temporal bone in the correct anatomical position but the parietal bones are definitely way out of proportion as is the frontal bone which is quite amazing. As for the suture that you say is missing, it might be missing or it could be more toward the back of the skull due to the elongation of the frontal bone.

In the image that shows the two skulls, what appears to be the coronal suture is visible on the first skull and also appears to be visible in the image of the third skull. The part of the skull that begins to taper is the parietal region BTW. That region is not where it's supposed to be either. It's supposed to be the top of the skull if that were a normal human skull.

Another thing that I find to be quite unusual is the mandible of the third skull as well as the maxilla especially the angle of the maxilla. The part of the mandible that connects into the jaw, (the condylar process of mandible) seems to be rather fragile looking as well as looking when compared with a modern human skull which is rather interesting. Too bad that the skull doesn't have any teeth because it seems that judging by the size of the mandible, the individual would have had fewer teeth than a normal human.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 6 2004, 10:17 PM
I think I'm right about there being fewer teeth in the third elongated skull. Now a normal human skull would have 14 upper teeth and the elongated skull would have no more than 8 just because of the angle of the maxilla bone. Almost reminds me of the way the teeth are positioned in the front part of a horse's jaw. In a horse's jaw there's teeth in the front and then a gap on both sides of the jaw where there's no teeth. I'll have to look back at the other skulls and check their teeth.

Posted by: Mark Oct 6 2004, 10:20 PM
Hi Seralia, thanks for not kicking me in the head when I open my mouth too much.
heh

Sometimes I'm afraid to speak my mind for fear others will be trying to fix me up with my own private padded cell.

You're right, I forgot the red man, but I didn't know the "oid" prefix and it did slip my mind. shock.gif

Sorry Wahya, Laughing Wolf and all the rest of you. blink.gif

Do you know what race the Red Man is considered?

If this is known...

Asians/Orientals = Mongoloids

Black Africans = Negroids

Pale Face = Caucasoid

Then...

Red Man = ?

And what about Pacific Islanders?

Aborginies?

Pygmies?

It truly boggles the mind.

It almost looks like various different breeding programs over hundreds of thousands of years.

Ok here's my latest contribution.

These are some mini skulls I have in my archives.

I cannot recall off hand where I got them from, but whenever I see gems I just gotta save the images.



user posted image



Can anyone provide any information on these little skulls?

sun.gif
conehead.gif
pyramideye.gif


P.S. This thread is better than any history class I ever had.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 6 2004, 10:22 PM
huh.gif OK... I'm definitely right about the skull having fewer teeth than a normal person. I would say 16 total. That third skull is definitely unique with the teeth positioned at the front of the upper and lower jaw with gaps on the sides. Very unusual indeed.

Posted by: Mark Oct 6 2004, 10:33 PM
Seralia
QUOTE
The Neanderthal were a mysterious race that had an exceptionally larger brain capacity as well as superior strength and were found to have the same level of dexterity as modern man. There has also been some talk of them still having been alive long after they were thought to have become extinct and it is not impossible to think that they had interbred with an even more advanced race that increased their brain capacity even farther than it already was.


Mmmm, that sounds very plausible.


Posted by: Seralia Oct 6 2004, 10:47 PM
QUOTE
Do you know what race the Red Man is considered?

If this is known...

Asians/Orientals = Mongoloids

Black Africans = Negroids

Pale Face = Caucasoid

Then...

Red Man = ?


Ameroid PuPP

QUOTE
These are some mini skulls I have in my archives.

I cannot recall off hand where I got them from, but whenever I see gems I just gotta save the images.

Can anyone provide any information on these little skulls?


They seem to be templates of the possible skull shapes. I can almost see a room full of beings arguing about what these elongated skull people or themselves will look like. arguing.gif Either that or a catalogue of birth defects.

Posted by: Wahya Oct 6 2004, 11:09 PM
QUOTE
Do you know what race the Red Man is considered?

If this is known...



I dont know of any 'oid' reference...

Mainstream scientists consider our closest kin to be mongolians.


IMO, the peoples living in the americas when the Spanish arrived were the end result of many thousands of years of immigration and mixing from all over the world.

I've studied this too.

Old cherokee legends say once there was a band of cherokees who were 'white'. They broke off and migrated to the west and we never heard from them again.

I remember reading about the controversy about kenniwick man and a native said something to the point of "who cares what they claim he was, our elders tell us we did always look like we do now."

If you go back to some old 19th century photographs of native americans, look at the faces. Some appear asian...other look like arabs or dark europeans. Many are a bit of both.

Pupp, look for the book In Plain Sight by Gloria Farley.

You will find it infinitely fascinating. greenalien.gif

Posted by: Seralia Oct 6 2004, 11:18 PM
Here's an interesting article about jaw size and brain capacity since I was going to say that the jaw of the third elongated skull appeared to be less powerful.

Slimmer jaw gave humans their brain

Patricia Reaney
Reuters
Thursday, 25 March 2004

Modern humans have such big brains and weak jaws because of a genetic mutation that occurred 2.4 million years ago, U.S. scientists say.

They discovered that a gene called MYH16 in modern humans mutated at about the same time that their skulls started to change in shape from other primates. This allowed their brains to increase in size.

But the trade-off was a smaller, less powerful jaw.

The researchers published their work in today's issue of the journal Nature.

"The coincidence in time...may mean that the decrease in jaw muscle size and force eliminated stress on the skull which released an evolutionary constraint on brain growth," said one of the researchers Adjunct Assistant Professor Nancy Minugh-Purvis, from the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine.

All humans have the MYH16 mutation but other primates, including chimpanzees and macaques, still have the intact gene.

Over the past few million years, since the genetic fault occurred, human skulls have grown three times in size and the outwardly elongated jaws have receded.

The researchers pieced together the puzzle after discovering that the gene was intact in primates but mutated in all humans.

If not a disease, then what?

A genetic fault is often linked with some type of inherited disease but the scientists were puzzled about what type of disease was common to all humans.

Further research revealed that the MYH16 gene was associated with muscles involved in chewing and biting and it encoded a protein in primate jaw muscles. This led the researchers to suspect the so-called disease in humans was really a weaker bite.

The researchers said the weaker bite would have lessened the force on the skull so it could grow larger and provide more space for a bigger brain.

"We can only hope that this study represents the vanguard of a new wave of analyses that focus on the genetic basis of human evolution," Currie added.

The crucial mutation wold have occurred at about the same time as the 'gracile' humans appeared in the fossil record, which had round skulls and small jaws.

Australian researcher Associate Professor Pete Currie, of the Victor Chang Cardiac Research Institute in Sydney, admitted "at first glance" the notion that such a tiny change could have such enormous consequences seemed "far-fetched".

But, he said, animal models had already shown that growth patterns of the craniofacial skeleton could be "radically altered" by a shift in muscle anatomy.

"Over time, the abrupt reduction in masticatory muscle size and contractile force that would have arisen within the MYH16-mutant ancestor could have had a considerable impact on cranial morphology," he said.

"Those effects might well have included a reduction in stress across the bones of the braincase, allowing it to become larger."

But Currie said the U.S. team did not address other factors that would have affected skull and jaw shape, such as a changing diet, or a growing dependence on using hands to break up food rather than ripping food apart with the mouth.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_1073563.htm

Posted by: Mark Oct 6 2004, 11:33 PM
Ameroids?

Or Wahya is probably right and there's only the 3 "oids"

Everyone was a mix already from migration and then the pale face alien1.gif arrived and started doing his thing.

My italian great grandparents on my moms side resembled short little mexicans. It was eerie when I saw the photos.

I think we're all a product of interbreeding. But it looks like we've been targeted for elimination.


Posted by: Without Fear Oct 7 2004, 09:15 AM
Hi,
This is an amazing thread - I have spend hours reading through and absorbing the information. Thanks to you all for sharing your knowledge!

I am reminded of the Quartz skulls that I read about many years ago. This is what I have recently found.
QUOTE
Many indigenous people speak of their remarkable magical and healing properties, but nobody really knows where they came from or what they were used for.

The most famous is the Mitchell-Hedges skull, which was either found in the Mayan ruins of Lubaantun, in Belize, in 1927, by his daughter Anna Mitchell-Hedges; Or (according to British Museum documents) was purchased at an auction at Sothebys in London, in 1943. The skull is expertly crafted.
QUOTE
The Mitchell-Hedges skull is made of clear quartz crystal, and both cranium and mandible are believed to have come from the same solid block. It weighs 11.7 pounds and is about five inches high, five inches wide, and seven inches long. Except for slight anomalies in the temples and cheekbones, it is a virtually anatomically correct replica of a human skull. Because of its small size and other characteristics, it is thought more closely to resemble a female skull -- and this has led some to refer to the Mitchell-Hedges skull as a "she."

The skull has been examined by experts from HP labs in 1970 who concluded:
QUOTE
Researchers found that the skull had been carved against the natural axis of the crystal. Modern crystal sculptors always take into account the axis, or orientation of the crystal's molecular symmetry, because if they carve "against the grain," the piece is bound to shatter -- even with the use of lasers and other high-tech cutting methods

QUOTE
To compound the strangeness, HP could find no microscopic scratches on the crystal which would indicate it had been carved with metal instruments. Dorland's best hypothesis for the skull's construction is that it was roughly hewn out with diamonds, and then the detail work was meticulously done with a gentle solution of silicon sand and water. The exhausting job -- assuming it could possibly be done in this way -- would have required man-hours adding up to 300 years to complete.

QUOTE
Under these circumstances, experts believe that successfully crafting a shape as complex as the Mitchell-Hedges skull is impossible; as one HP researcher is said to have remarked, "The damned thing simply shouldn't be."

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_6_1.htm

I also recalled stories about there being 13 Quartz skulls around the world that originated in Atlantis, and that they were used for special spiritual ceremonies. This is what I have found today:
http://www.crystalinks.com/crystalskulls.html (Scroll down a couple of pages - the same photographs of elongated skulls are also here).
QUOTE
The image above - displays the pattern of 12 around 1. The 13th skull represents the Point of Origin - Source of consciousness creation.  The shape of the crystal skull looks a lot like the ancient Incan skulls elongated cranium.  The elongated skull entities resonates to me as the ancient Egyptian gods - especially Ptah. They supposedly were either gods or aliens who had advanced though processing - were able to tap into - and understand - higher consciousness. Skills would include telepathy - telekinesis - teleportation - and intuition


http://www.bryandeflores.com/crystalskulls.html
QUOTE
Long ago, ancient Atlantis was visited by extraterrestrial races that shared spiritual knowledge and technology with the Atlantean people. The exchanges included 12 crystal skulls that provided access to off planet reservoirs of knowledge. An astrological altar was constructed of four base metals (copper, bronze, gold and silver).The circular altar was divided into quadrants, and aligned in four directions. The skulls were placed in threes, according to the astronomical location of the star or planet holding the information. When all 12 skulls were placed in the circle, an etheric 13th  skull would manifest in the center of the ring, completing the circuit…. The skulls were utilized for thousands of years, assisting humans in communicating with other races and drawing divine knowledge from the universal akashic record. As the Atlantean epoch came to a close, some of the skulls were redistributed within Earths field, and the others removed due to the coming dark age and descent of human conciousness

Final link;
http://www.adalarms.force9.co.uk/urigeller/parascience/articles/crystal-skull-explorer.htm
QUOTE
Another theory we have uncovered discussing that the crystal skulls are connected to people who live in the Inner Earth. This idea presents the theory that our earth is Hollow with a small central sun at its core and openings at the poles. Gravity, which is located at the center of the Earth's crust, 800 miles thick, hold objects and people to the inner or outer surface. Supposedly, 13 master Crystal Skulls hold the genetic coding of Twelve Inner Earth Tribes and the thirteenth or central skull represents the family of these tribes.


I don't want to divert the thread, but thought that this was interesting and made connections to some of the issues you have already raised.

cheers2.gif
WF

PuPP, I have seen that 'skulls' picture before, and I believe that it is a photograph of the dried fruit of a snapdragon
http://www.marz-kreations.com/WildPlants/SCRO/Antirrhinum_siculum.html

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 7 2004, 12:45 PM
PuPP check your email for the Neanderthal skull from Brazil that I forwarded you. You can insert it in this message if you like. It was found in the caves where Lund found the extinct animal bones. I will look up the details and post them later this evening. These are by no means unique and we should expect renewed interest in them in light of the recent reopening of the Mexican skull studies.


user posted image


Seralia, it would be natural to expect Phoenician writing to appear in New England as it is commonly known that the Phoenicians mined tin in the British Isles and other examples of their writing appears all over the North American continent wherever they exploited resources for their Mediterranean clientele. Heed Wahya's advice and get a copy of "In Plain Sight" as it contains some ot the most remarkable examples of Old World inscriptions in North America ever collected. Gloria worked with Barry Fell and she is trying to finish a second book before her eyesight and health give out. A few months ago it was announced that a cave entrance near the Runestone had been found in Runestone Park near Heavener. I've been there twice and recently an informant gave me cogent reasons to return.

I also have some photos of some petroglyphic examples of Western Cherokee writing from Colorado which I will forward to PuPP for posting. Whether we should start another thread for that is up to you all. It's nice to have all this interrelated material in one place. Again, I'd like to thank PuPP for an excellent site to display this amazing material. robotskull.gif conehead.gif

Posted by: Wahya Oct 7 2004, 07:34 PM
QUOTE
. Heed Wahya's advice and get a copy of "In Plain Sight" as it contains some ot the most remarkable examples of Old World inscriptions in North America ever collected.



Not only examples, but also translations in many cases.

I was particularly interested in the chapter about the Anubis Cave.

Tex, has anyone ever checked for trace elements in phoenician bronzes to see if a point of origin for their copper and tin could be identified?

Posted by: Mark Oct 7 2004, 07:51 PM
Hi Without Fear, isn't it amazing? I'm constantly picking my jaw up ever since I saw the first images from the www.Light1998.com site. I'm glad I saved them, because the site has been forbidden to me ever since.

QUOTE
PuPP, I have seen that 'skulls' picture before, and I believe that it is a photograph of the dried fruit of a snapdragon
http://www.marz-kreations.com/WildPlants/S...um_siculum.html


Regarding the little skulls, thanks, I wasn't sure what they were. I've seen those Nai ri pon (sp) plants whose fruit dries up and looks like tiny people with ribs, arms, hands, feet and even tiny little fingers, real bizarre.

And thanks for the links, excellant sites. I think we have a crystal skull thread. Maybe you could add those links and that information to it for me. And I'll add the images I have in my archives.



Mitchell-Hedges Crystal Skull

user posted image

Ok Tex, I inserted the partial neanderthal skull. Glad you are into this stuff too. It's cool when we all come together and provide different stuff we have come across and combine it in one place. Without the internet, we might not even have known of this information. Everything the various contributors in this thread have provided is just overwhelming. handclap.gif And we're still growing.

But sure Tex, additional threads are always welcomed for ANY or even ALL individual artifacts that may get hidden in the big threads.

It makes for a well archived forum also when thread titles display topics of interest; specific skulls, monuments, giants, civilizations, rocks hierglyphs on rocks etc.
We can handle the bandwith so no worries there.

We're in search of the forbidden knowledge here.
heh
sun.gif

Posted by: Seralia Oct 7 2004, 10:11 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Oct 6 2004, 11:33 PM)
Ameroids?

Or Wahya is probably right and there's only the 3 "oids"


blink.gif I could have sworn that Ameroid is or was correct term PuPP. It was one of the four races but according to some sources, there may be as many as six. I'm not sure what the sixth is but the fifth is Australoid. scratchinghead.gif Though there was some mixing between Native Americans and Orientals, this mostly occurred along the California coast. On the New England coast, there was some mixing with ancient Europeans but there was a forth and very distinct race that was here and the Polynesians were considered to be part of it. I'll have to try to dig up some information on the known skull types. What makes things difficult is that everyone who knew how to build a boat was here at one time or another. conehead.gif


Posted by: Mark Oct 7 2004, 10:56 PM
Thanks Seralia.

Ok, let's list them.

Ameroid
Australoid
Caucasoid
Negroid
Mongoloid

And probably many combinations s THEY mixed the lab rats. Shhhh.

Cool, we're learning here!

smiley.gif



Posted by: Mark Oct 8 2004, 05:02 PM
eyeball.gif eyeball.gif
Hi everyone,

I did some editing on the first post of the thread and added this image below as well.

sun.gif

user posted image

Posted by: Prue Oct 8 2004, 06:13 PM
handclap.gif This is the most amazing thread I've kept up with in some time. My hats off to all of you, my brain is bulging. Thanks to all the contributors.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 8 2004, 07:37 PM
Thanx for putting all those skull images together PuPP.

It wasn't easy... but I was able to find what is considered to be a Native American skull that was found in a cave in Mexico and is said to be 900 years old.

user posted image

I did manage to find a little bit of information concerning the native skull-type as well as differences in blood types that I found to be interesting.


QUOTE
To speak of a race of prehistoric giants in what is now the desert sands of Death Valley is simultaneously to refute the doctrine which decrees that man is a relative newcomer to the North and South American continents. While on the one hand, new radiocarbon dates demonstrate that the Bering Land Bridge and Cordilleran Ice Corridor were not passable until 9000 years ago, an increasing amount of physical evidence indicates that man was surely in this hemisphere much earlier than that recent date.

For one thing, corn, a New World contribution to the pantries, is said to be, at 9000 years, our oldest domesticated seed crop. Some earliest agriculturist had to be on this continent more than 9000 years ago in order to domesticate the seed. Conclusive proof that such ancient farmers did exist was offered when a Humble Oil Company drill brought up Mexican corn pollen that was more than 80,000 years old.

The anomalous Indian blood seration and dentition and the geographic distribution of the American Indian demands an impossible genetic time scale in which to transform Asiatic immigrant to distinctive New World inhabitant. Even if we attempt to keep some kind of peace with the accepted theories of New World habitation, we must grant more evolution in 40,000 years in North America than that which took place in more than one million years in Europe, Africa, and Asia.

We might rest our case by providing as evidence the 50,000 year-old skulls found in California, which are clearly those of American Indians, but we are left with another mystery. A 140,000 year old American Indian type skull (via metric analysis) has been found at an Iranian excavation site.

What enormously complicates the above finding is the uneasy fact that no precedent or prior skull types of the American Indian have been found anywhere in the world. The Amerindians appear without any evolutionary transformational base.


http://www.newsfinder.org/more.php?id=307_0_1_0_M


BLOOD TYPE TRIVIA

Hugh Nibley pointed out that the "old doctrinaire cocksureness that once characterized discussions of Indians origins" have given way to more careful and thoroughly researched perspectives. One to note is that of Carlton Beals, who deals with blood-types. "Few Indians of South America [and even less of North America, according to Beals] have even 1 percent of B blood, and most have none at all - though this is the most important and characteristic non-O ingredient of Asia... Here is a mystery that requires much pondering and investigation." The indians, that is, who are supposed, as we all know, to have come from eastern Asia, do not have the Asiatic blood-type. [49] He also notes that A.A. Anguiano contests that among our Indians are also mongoloids, negroids, Southern European types, giants (Patagonians) pigmies (Venezuela and Brazil). Many anthropologists consider it impossible to trace all these types to a single Bering route from Asia. Nibley notes further that G.A. Matson says the American indian blood-types are dominant in type O. Yet some tribes, like the Blackfeet are almost 100% type "A" as are the Hawiians. Mongolains are almost exclusively type "B" which is exceedingly rare among the Native Americans. "The issue has been carefully avoided."

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/prophecykeepersshow.html


QUOTE
…few Native Americans are group B, so they must have migrated to the Americas late enough to pick up the Rh positive gene, but too early to pick up the gene for B. (9)…

…the gene carried by people who are blood group O is ancient by evolutionary standards….


http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/63%20Blood%20Types/Blood%20TypesEn.htm

Posted by: Seralia Oct 8 2004, 07:44 PM
I know that it might be my imagination but has anyone noticed the size and shape of John Kerry's skull and that he seems to have an unusually well defined brow ridge as is seen in the Neanderthal skulls? huh.gif

Posted by: Seralia Oct 8 2004, 08:03 PM
For those who still might think that these elongated skulls were the result od skull-binding, there are some examples of the infants in egyptian artwork which indicate that they were born with these abnormally elongated skulls. This is just one of them.

user posted image


Posted by: Seralia Oct 8 2004, 08:14 PM
I did manage to find the original image and there are three infants with elongated skulls

user posted image

Posted by: Mark Oct 8 2004, 08:25 PM
Great find Seralia, the artwork is amazing with the little elongated headed ones. I don't recall ever seeing that before either. cheers2.gif

handclap.gif

QUOTE
We might rest our case by providing as evidence the 50,000 year-old skulls found in California, which are clearly those of American Indians, but we are left with another mystery. A 140,000 year old American Indian type skull (via metric analysis) has been found at an Iranian excavation site.


Looks like history and archaeology books need to be re-written.

I've saved the images and in time, I'll try and replace all of the images in the posts with ones on our server here in case we lose them -sites go down etc.
Hopefully others have saved the images as well. These are gems in this thread.


sun.gif

conehead.gif


Posted by: Seralia Oct 9 2004, 12:22 AM
Here is another unusual skull which is said to have been discovered in Bolivia and was one of six skulls. It's semi-elongated but still doesn't have the same brain capacity as the other skulls.

user posted image

QUOTE
The group of skulls was bought for the Museum of Anthropology on two occasions; in 1898 and in 1901, by the then Director, Professor G. Nicolucci.

The six skulls belong to a pre-Inca civilisation, believed after morphological examinations to be the Aymara.

They carry deliberate cephalic deformations, linked to the aim of achieving an aesthetic effect, probably dictated by social motives.

The “elongated skull” effect was achieved by the use of a deforming bandage. It has been observed that this operation would not have caused distress to the bone tissue and internal structures. The aesthetic result of a narrow face and heightened head was perhaps made to seem more natural by contrivances of the subject’s dress.


http://www.musei.unina.it/Antropologia/eng/1.2.2.1.d.htm

Wrapping the head with restricting bandages is an interesting hypothesis but as I said before, the skull size is determined by the brain size and the skull will only grow enough to accomodate the size of the brain. This individual clearly had slightly a larger brain than normal but a restricting bandage, if one was used would have only reshaped the head and not caused it to grow in size. I'm also thinking that restricting the skull by such a method would also restrict blood flow and also, since Bolivia has a tropical climate, there would be a little problem of the infant overheating. There would also be a permanent soft spot at the top of the skull as well as deformaties of the sutures.

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 9 2004, 06:50 PM
The Del Mar skulls in the San Diego Museum of Man were dated by protein racemization by Dr. Jeffrey Bada who invented the process. They were on the order of 40,000 years old just like the hearths and barbecued pygmy elephants on Santa Rosa Island. Bada immediately came under attack by competitors who had been a little late to the patent office. In a few years Bada recanted his dates under pressure from his peers. Not the first time nor the last. Again please get a copy of George Carter's "Earlier Than You Think" for some of the best documented cases of skulls and artifacts well beyond the Clovis Barrier. Jeff Goodman is a good followup with "American Genesis". There is a wealth of hard evidence but it takes time to dig it out and put it in one place. I suggest that we start a list of "required" reading material to bring each new wave of inquiring minds up to speed in the shortest amount of time. At the top of the list should be those with physical if not irrefutable evidence such as those we have been presenting here.

I have recently learned that William Corliss' "Ancient Man" is presently available again. The Frontiers of Science series is one of the best and well documented compendiums I know of, with regard to anomalies. The books are divided by subject and cover most of the natural sciences.

Posted by: Mark Oct 10 2004, 12:22 AM
Suggested reading from Tex.


"American Genesis"
by Jeff Goodman


"Earlier Than You Think"
by George Carter


"Ancient Man"
by William Corliss

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 11 2004, 06:49 PM
Not all of the Pharoahs and ruling class had coneheads. They pretty much looked like us even as far back as 3,300 B.C. I'm thinking the coneheads were aliens. Real people had normal-shaped heads with red and blond hair.

user posted image

A well preserved body from the pre-dynastic period in Egypt, circa 3,300 BC. Buried in a sand grave, the natural dryness of the surroundings kept the body preserved. His red hair have been so well preserved that he has been given the nickname "Ginger" at the British Museum where he is kept on public display.

user posted image

Queen Hetop-Heres II, of the Fourth Dynasty, the daughter of Cheops, the builder of the great pyramid, is shown in the colored bas reliefs of her tomb to have been a distinct blonde. Her hair is painted a bright yellow stippled with little red horizontal lines, and her skin is white. (‘The Races of Europe’, Carleton Stevens Coon, New York City, Macmillan. 1939, p.98)

user posted image

Yuya, Egyptian nobleman (Joseph II) from 1400 BC, father of Tiy (Tyre= mother and wife of Akhenaten, Pharaoh Amenhotep III). (Father of Aye whom later became Pharoah after death of Tutankhamun. .Yuya's blond hair and Caucasian facial structure have been well preserved by the embalming process; Ahmed Osman proved that the identity of Biblical Joseph was that of Prime Minister Yuya in the Egyptian New Kingdom.

user posted image

Thuya, great grandmother of Tutankhamen, wife of Yuya.

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesegypt.html



BJ

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 11 2004, 07:08 PM
There is one more personage here, Queen Hatshepsut, who led a very intereting life!

user posted image

Egyptian Female Pharaoh: Queen Hatshepsut, wife of Pharaoh Thutmosis II. She ruled Egypt after Thutmosis' death in 1520 BC. Her long blonde hair and facial structure has been well preserved by the embalming process of the time.

After the death of Thutmose II in 948 BC Hatshepsut calls on Solomon for help. This information we read on one of his statues, `I was in this land under [her] command since the occurrence of the death of [her] predecessor...'[P. Dorman, `The Monuments of Senenmut', (Kegan, Paul, London, 1988)]
But the best thing Queen Hatshepsut of Egypt brought back was the “seed of Solomon (Senenmut)”. When she returned to Egypt, she gave birth to a child, whose name was Menelik. (Note: It is thought she was the Queen of Sheba.)

After the death of Solomon, Sheba was assassinated and evidence of her existence deliberated destroyed by Thutmossis III. We are lucky to have any thing left of this time in history.
---------------------------

Other notes of interest:

The mummy of the wife of King Tutankhamen has auburn hair.

The mummies of Rameses II and Prince Yuaa have fine silky yellow hair. The
mummy of another pharaoh, Thothmes II, has light chestnut-colored hair.

The mummy of Queen Tiy has "wavy brown hair."
------------------------

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesegypt.html

The above URL is an excellent website.


BJ

Posted by: Seralia Oct 11 2004, 08:30 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 11 2004, 06:49 PM)
Not all of the Pharoahs and ruling class had coneheads.  They pretty much looked like us even as far back as 3,300 B.C.  I'm thinking the coneheads were aliens. Real people had normal-shaped heads with red and blond hair.


I'm thinking that the elongated head elite of Egypt were half alien and half human BJ. The features of a few of them are close to being hybrid Neanderthal while others are more modern. This one is definitely an unusual one with a more modern brow ridge but still with what seems to be fewer teeth than a normal person. The teeth also appear to be twice the size as a normal person though I have seen people with teeth that are larger than normal in which one of their teeth is the size of two teeth of a normal person.

user posted image

The more modern seem to grow upward and the Neanderthal-type seem to grow from front to back. This is a model of a Neanderthal skeleton with a closeup of the skull.

user posted image
user posted image

The pictures of the Neanderthal skeleton came from a site called MODELSPECIMENS.COM. This is their claim.

QUOTE
You have it? – We can replicate it!      You want it? - We can make it!


http://www.modelspecimens.com

They did say anything so maybe they can be convinced to replicate a conehead skull. smiley.gif

This is another good one BTW.

user posted image

And this is a good illustration of a normal skull and a bound skull.

user posted image

Binding the head does not change the cranial capacity or volume.

Now this is a really big head. shock.gif

user posted image

QUOTE
Fig. 4A11) Human head with pointed hat. (P.Gaietto in photography, in order to express the idea of the dimensions. Photo 1976). Origin: Egypt.









Posted by: Seralia Oct 11 2004, 08:45 PM
Here is an interesting skeleton of a "deformed" Egyptian Child.

user posted image

Posted by: Mark Oct 11 2004, 08:53 PM
Hot stuff BJ, bouncefire.gif I see you got the image thing to work.
Pretty easy isn't it?

It sure appears to show that at one time, pale skinned blonds and red heads ruled Egypt. Perhaps the coneheads arrived and there was a great war.

Also, perhaps it explains why we have more than one LORD written about in the bible. Different races - Different species. HMMMM


China
Tall Red haired caucasion mummy discovered in China.


user posted image

(Note: I'll add some more info and description to this later)


From Iraq (HMMMM)


user posted image



user posted image



I believe this one comes from Egypt and was posted earlier by one of the group here. (I believe it was Seralia. Awesome stuff!)

user posted image


I wonder how many of these artifacts have disappeared since Iraqs museums were looted.




Posted by: BJ1 Oct 11 2004, 08:59 PM
QUOTE
They did say anything so maybe they can be convinced to replicate a conehead skull. 


Seralia, you don't suppose? Am I hearing hoax? I sent an e-mail to my daughter who quickly dismissed the elongated skulls as a bunch of hooey.

If they are authentic, then I agree with you that they are hybrids. I think I read on the URL I gave that the Egyptian hierarchy were pretty much wiped out. It doesn't seem far-fetched that had there been an uprising, they were either killed or escaped to the subterranean regions where we know something "lives" today because of the stories that have abounded since ancient times. Worldwide.

This bears more research. scoping.gif

BJ

Posted by: Seralia Oct 11 2004, 09:07 PM
This is an ancient paleolithic sculpture that appears to show the two types of heads.

user posted image

QUOTE
Two-faced anthropomorphic lithic sculpture. It represents two human heads joined for the nape, one small and the other large. The stylistic deformation is for vertical lengthening. The large head seems a Homo sapiens sapiens with the beard. Behind the jaw of the small head a disc of the diameter of cm. 4, and of the thickness of cm. 1 is carved in relief.
Size: lenght cm. 42.
Origin: Rossiglione, Genoa, Italy.
Artistic-religious harroyan Civilization.
Material culture: upper Paleolithic.
Collection Museum of the Origins of the Man.


Posted by: Seralia Oct 11 2004, 09:10 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 11 2004, 08:59 PM)
Seralia, you don't suppose?   Am I hearing hoax? 


Not at all BJ. I was just thinking that they, since the seem to be so good, making replicas of skeletons that maybe they could duplicate an authentic conehead skull so that it can be studied.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 11 2004, 09:22 PM
Now this is an interseting paleolithic piece. They call it a mammal or horse head. bustingup.gif

user posted image

QUOTE
Zoomorphic lithic sculpture.
It represents a mammal head, perhaps a horse. The eyes are not represented, but it is perceived a generic orbital zone. The sculpture is obtained from a nodule of silex, of which it has been used in part the original shape, that desumes from the remained rind, that in the drawing is represented with dots.
The stylistic deformation is interpreted, also, from the curving of the snout, that has a own elegance. The working technique is constituted from resolute removals.
Size: lenght cm. 22.
Origin: Rodi Garganico, Foggia, Italy.
Artistic-religious juritzkyan paleolithic Civilization
Material culture: Clactonian or ancient Acheulean.
Collection Museum of the Origins of Man.


The size and shape of the eyes kind of reminds me of Sumarian artwork.

user posted image

Very interesting.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 11 2004, 09:46 PM
Hey, PuPP, I get to post with the big kids now. rolleyes.gif

After looking at the latest pics of skulls you posted, Seralia, I counted the teeth of the close up and as far as I can determine, it has 32 teeth, which (I think) is the standard number we have. Now for the ear cavities. We need to check up on that. Something isn't matching up there.

Then we have the "deformed" Egyptian child with only 5 ribs on each side. How many do we have?

PuPP, those statues definitely look reptilian. I used a couple of days to research blood types. There is found to be a marker in Rh O positive blood that is shared with the Rhesus monkey. This blood is found in 85% of the world's population. Then there is the RH O negative blood that doesn't have the marker, and is found in only 7% of the world's population. All O type blood can receive only O type blood, but the rest of the population can receive it...all except for the O-, which can receive only O-. It's more complicated than that , but this simplifies things.

Here is what is so curious about this O- blood. It is acknowledged that blood factors are transmitted with more exactitude than any other human or animal characteristic. It is not known from where the negative rh factor derived. ........

Then there is this about the "Blue Bloods": It is said that the Royals have blue blood in their veins. Why is becauce according to legend their blood is copper based while ours is iron based. This indicates that their bodies may be different than ours.

http://www.stargods.org/AntichristBlueBlood.htm

It is known that O- women have difficulty in pregancy because of the blood factors that destroy the red cells of the "foreign" embryo. What am I getting at here? Inbreeding. That would cause anomylies in the finished product, which may be why these strange skulls and skeletons are deformed.

An nonymous posted this on the Azazel thread when we were heavy on the trail of the number 322:

QUOTE
We can tell whether it´s them or us by the binary code sequencing of the DNA.

We´uns have a code sequence beginning with 0 and 1.

They´uns have a code sequence beginning with 2 and 1.

And then:

... it´s in the blood, it´s in the blood, it´s in the power of the blood...

Blood Brothers

Now we can understand the reason for setting up DNA databases. Looking for blood brothers."


Where this started out to be an "Ancient Skull" thread, this blood factor business may have played a big part in the deformed skeletons of the children we are looking at.

BJ

Posted by: Seralia Oct 11 2004, 09:48 PM
Here is a skull-type that has similar facial features to a few of the conehead skulls.

user posted imageuser posted image

They are both representative of a species known as Peking Man. The one on the left is the skull of a male and the facial bones are on almost the same type of angle as one of the last conehead skull images that I posted. The one on the right is said to be a female who had an artificially deformed head. Both skulls are estimated to be between 400,000 and 500,000 years old.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 11 2004, 10:19 PM
In Egypt, the people with the elongated skulls were known as the Shemsu - Hor and this is a few bits of information that I found about them.


QUOTE
Could it be possible that, as in other cultures, successive populations tended to deform their infant's heads in order to make them similar to this race of "serpent priests"? In Malta, all this was practiced by a mysterious populace that erected gigantic temples to the Mother Goddess between 4100 and 2500 B.C. The presence of these skulls might be that of the last exponents of the most ancient sacerdotal caste that built the megalithic temples and, never having blended with the local populations, had continued reproducing through the millenniums within familiar unions (as was the usual practice among the elite) and consequently impoverished its genetic patrimony until inevitable pathologies manifested, finally disappearing.

The origins

The skulls we examined are dated 2500 B.C. (but may be even older) a date in which Malta's megalithic history ends, initiating a period of historical darkness and absence of population that will last about 300 years, until the arrival of the Phoenicians. These will begin to make Malta their Mediterranean outpost. The Phoenicians will also erect temples to the Mother Goddess in Malta, calling her Astarte, the snake-faced Goddess. Again we find the representation of a Goddess who is associated with the snake and healing powers, almost as if the Phoenicians wanted to continue an interrupted tradition. But it's the date of 2500 B.C. that presents a fundamental key of interpretation for understanding who these long-headed individuals were and to use it we must move from Malta to nearby Egypt.

Professor Walter B. Emery (1903-1971), the famous Egyptologist, author of "Archaic Egypt", who excavated at Saqquara in the 30's, indeed discovered the remains of individuals who lived in pre-dynastic epoch. These presented a dolichocephalous skull, larger than that of the local ethnic group, fair hair and a taller, heavier build. Emery declared that this stock wasn't indigenous to Egypt but had performed an important sacerdotal and governmental role in this country.
This race kept its distance from the common people, blending only with the aristocratic classes and the scholar associated them with the Shemsu Hor, the "disciples of Horus".


The Shemsu Hor are recognized as the dominant sacerdotal caste in pre-dynastic Egypt (until approximately 3000 B.C.), being mentioned in the Turin papyrus and the list of the kings of Abydos. It's interesting to note that Emery writes: "Towards the end of the IV millennium B.C. the people known as the Disciples of Horus appear as a highly dominant aristocracy that governed entire Egypt. The theory of the existence of this race is supported by the discovery in the pre-dynastic tombs, in the northern part of Higher Egypt, of the anatomical remains of individuals with bigger skulls and builds than the native population, with so much difference to exclude any hypothetical common racial strain. The fusion of the two races must have come about in ages that concurred, more or less, with the unification of the two Egyptian Kingdoms".


http://www.gizapyramid.com/adriano_forgione.htm

QUOTE
So who were these " masters " , this race of great stature belived to have founded the royal line of Egypt and to have introduced new burial customs to the local population ? Emery identified them with the Shemsu - Hor , the Companions , or Followers , of the Hawk headed god Horus who , according to one very ancient king - list preserved in Turin , dominated Egypt for an incredible 13,420 years before the ascent of Narmer and Hor - aha the first recogniced Pharaohs .

Emery must have been aware of this fact when writing Archaic Egypt ,so he was therefore implying that the most distant ancestors of the Egyptians had been tall in stature with large craniums . Emery also made it clear that : " The racial origin of these invaders is not known and the route they took in their penetration of Egypt is equally obscure " .


QUOTE
Adding weight to this argument is the knowledge that " people allied in type to the big - headed Predynastic Egyptians are to be found buried in early Sumerian graves of Mesopotamia . For example , long - headed skulls , entirely unlike the rest of the Sumerian race , are known to have been found at the excavation at Kish and jemdet Nasr in Iraq . They were found at thee lowest occupational levels , indicating that they are at least five thousant years old .In an important article written on this subject for the American Anthropologist in 1933 , its author , Henry Field , concluded that these outsized skulls represented evidence of a " proto . Semitic " culture , who were the original founders of the pre - Sumerian sity - states before they were overrun by an indigenous culture with a quite different skull shape sometime around 3000 BC .


http://alvidk.tripod.com/planetx/id32.html

Posted by: Mark Oct 11 2004, 10:21 PM
INFORMATION OVERLOAD!!!!
shock.gif
Amazed again Seralia, you keep finding more of those coneheads. spot.gif


Our archive is gonna be awesome. I'm gonna have to make webpages for all of these images too.

Soooo we have one group of ancient rulers of Egypt with pale skin and with blond and red hair (most likely with green and/or blue eyes)

We have Red haired caucasion mummies in China.

We have a list of todays current and past rulers whom almost all have blue eyes.
(Thread in General Discussion - "What do these World Leaders have in Common")

And we have the RH 0 negative blood factor.

(blue bloods - copper based blood vs iron based blood)

NOTE: We may have some members here with the RH 0 negative blood and we must make sure that they are not offended or for them to believe that we think they should to be burned at the stake like a witch.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits"

Now after reading and researching, it seems that those blue bloods are what rules over us today. The banks, the governments, the pope, the queen, the corporations... are all related...they are the Aristocratic 'royal' bloodlines of europe, from Rome, Greece and definitely Egypt, and most seem to have been inbred with each other for generations.

From the mummie evidence, it looks to me like Donald Trumps people have been running things since Egyptian times.

Now, the question is, are the coneheads the ancestors of the blue bloods of today?

Does it go from Egypt all the way back to Summeria? Or was there a war between the pale skinned blonds and red haired with the dark hair, dark eyed peoples?(Summerians) Which is still being waged today.

And I wonder how many species created the various different human (hominid) slaves here on earth?

Look at the various "root" races of man. Probably each one was some other species experiment. Just pondering - sorry - carry on!

P.S.
BJ, I'm so glad you can post images now. smiley.gif

Posted by: Seralia Oct 11 2004, 10:35 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 11 2004, 09:46 PM)
After looking at the latest pics of skulls you posted, Seralia, I counted the teeth of the close up and as far as I can determine, it has 32 teeth, which (I think) is the standard number we have. Now for the ear cavities. We need to check up on that. Something isn't matching up there.




The last skull with the teeth may have had normal teeth but one that was posted by JenThom could not have had a normal set of teeth due to the angle and shape of the maxilla. As for the ears, in some of the Egyptian statues, they were said to be slightly larger and pointed.

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 12 2004, 05:26 PM
The reptilian figurines are all from the Ubaid culture which preceded the Sumerians. They would have been contemporary with the vanished Maltese Civilization of the Goddess, which is represented there by megalithic statues of a female deity very reminescent of later Sumerian depictions of An the Mother Goddess sometimes called the Cow like the later Hathor. The Goddess in her many manifestiations goes back to the Paleolithic at least. Astarte is indeed the resurrection of a very old tradition which the Phoenicians no doubt recalled from their extremely ancient traditions. The Lebanese who are the last expression of the Phoenicians claim a history of 30,000 years. Much of Phoenician history was purposely erased by the Romans who envied their vast mercantile empire. The Carthaginians were also a Phoenician phase.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 12 2004, 09:34 PM
Thanx for the information Tex. The worship of serpents goes back a long time and seems to have taken place in many countries over the centuries.

I found some more information on the Shemsu Hor BTW.

QUOTE
The earliest civilization was established by the gods of the First Time (Zep Tepi) from Punt or Tanutra who came to be known as Shamsu Hara (Greek Shemsu Hor i.e. followers of Horus).  The relics of the civilization established by the followers of Horus are still found at Maphungubwe, Zimbabwe, the Sudan, Yemen, modern Ethiopia, Egypt and Benin and the Area of the Great Lakes.


http://www.kara.co.za/newspaperart/indigenous%20knowledge%20indaba%20workshop.htm

QUOTE
The Shemsu Hor were a fair haired, blue eyed race and taller than the indigenous Egyptians. Curiously, their skulls possessed an astonishing physical characteristic: unlike conventional human skulls, the front and rear halves of the Shemsu Hor skulls did not knit together. In consequence, as the brain grew during infancy, the rear half of the skull was forced backwards. This pronounced deformation caused the skin to become very taut, thereby giving the Shemsu Hor the facial appearance of a serpent!

Very significantly, the deformed Shemsu Hor skulls have been found in regions of the world where ancient structures were constructed with massive stone blocks, e.g. the Giza Plateau, the pyramids of Central America and the Hal Saflini Hypogeum in Malta. The term “Shem” is of Akkadian derivation, being derived from the Babylonian term “shamash,” meaning “serpent,” Akkadia being the former name of Kurdistan. It is also in these particular regions that Mother Goddess figurines have been found who bear the facial features of a serpent. Interestingly, the Dead Sea scroll entitled “TheTestament of Amran,” bears the phrase “… his face was that of a viper.”


QUOTE
The magnificent civilizing era of the Shemsu Hor in Egypt appears to have ended circa 2250 BCE when a necrophilic priesthood known as the Royal Order of the Dragon became the overlords of the Egyptian populace. From that time on, the Egypt ofantiquity lost the technology necessary for constructing buildings incorporating massive stone blocks. The Order of the Dragon cult still exists at the present time.


QUOTE
When the Shemsu Hor disappeared from the pages of early Egyptian and Maltese history, some of the local inhabitants began the custom of binding the skulls of their babies between two flat boards, in order to simulate the elongated skulls of the Shemsu Hor overlords who had re-introduced civilization in the wake of the global flood. At approximately the same time period that the era of the Shemsu Hor ended in Egypt, the Olmec people of Central America were still primitive jungle farmers until,according to Mesoamerican history, the Olmecs were visited by a tall white-skinned individual possessing fair hair, blue eyes, a white beard and an incredibly elongated head—a perfect description of a Shemsu Hor. In a remarkably short time period, the Olmecs developed a very sophisticated culture and skills which enabled them to construct the first pyramids in Mesoamerica. With the knowledge imparted them by this mysterious stranger whom they revered, the Olmecs constructed a fortress incorporating cyclopean stone blocks at La Venta.

Near the site, American archaeologist Mathew Stirling discovered a large rock sculpture bearing the image ofa Shemsu Hor, replete with elongated head and sporting a long beard (full-blooded Mesoamericans were unable to grow beards).The Olmec empire mysteriously collapsed circa 100 BCE, some of the Olmecsrelocating to Belize and the Yucatan Peninsula to become known as the Maya, whileother Olmecs travelled west to Central Mexico, where they founded the Toltec Empire.The elongated skulls of the Shemsu Hor have been discovered in both of these areas.


http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:3hZcyr57aw0J:www.briansbetterworld.com/pdfs/indigochildren.pdf+Shemsu+-+Hor+&hl=en&lr=lang_en


Posted by: Mark Oct 12 2004, 10:33 PM
Dang Seralia, I've been looking for the knowledge found in this thread for 2 over years.

You are really putting the pieces together.

QUOTE
The Shemsu Hor were a fair haired, blue eyed race and taller than the indigenous Egyptians. Curiously, their skulls possessed an astonishing physical characteristic: unlike conventional human skulls, the front and rear halves of the Shemsu Hor skulls did not knit together. In consequence, as the brain grew during infancy, the rear half of the skull was forced backwards. This pronounced deformation caused the skin to become very taut, thereby giving the Shemsu Hor the facial appearance of a serpent!


Doesn't the word SEMITE come from Shem?

QUOTE
At approximately the same time period that the era of the Shemsu Hor ended in Egypt, the Olmec people of Central America were still primitive jungle farmers until,according to Mesoamerican history, the Olmecs were visited by a tall white-skinned individual possessing fair hair, blue eyes, a white beard and an incredibly elongated head—a perfect description of a Shemsu Hor.


Ever since I first set my eyes on the pyramid photos of the Americas and compared them to the "step" pyramid of Egypt, I always felt there was a connection.

And this stuff about the tall, pale skinned with blue eyes advanced people really fits in with what I have seen and who were involved in my life.

Like my 5th grade teacher whom hadn't seemed to age in 30 years.

I always liked her though, even if she said on my report card that I was a daydreamer and needed to concentrate more when in school.
smiley.gif


Posted by: Seralia Oct 12 2004, 10:41 PM
So now we're looking for dragons. sweating.gif The Dragon Court or the Ordo Draconis to be exact.

QUOTE
In 1998 e.v., the Chevalier Michael, King of Arms of the Imperial and Royal Dragon Court and Order, states that "The Dragon Court can first be identified in Egypt under the patronage of the priest prince Ankh f n Khonsu in about 2170 b.c." This is a very interesting admission, what is the documentation to back it up? If the Dragon Order (whose web site is no longer accessible by the way, it was accessed via the Royal House of Stewart Website) regards Ankh f n Khonsu, as its first patron, what is its position in re Thelema, Thelemites, Aleister Crowley (who was himself a member of the Celtic Church), and any and all incarnations of Ankh f n Khonsu that have existed in history and which exist today?


http://www.antiqillum.com/texts/bg/Qadosh/qadosh014.htm

QUOTE
When the Imperial and Royal Dragon Court was reconstituted by King
Sigismund in 1408 as the Societas Draconis, it was based upon an ancient
bloodline tradition which he inherited from his Egyptian and Scythian
ancestors. This line had descended through the Tuatha de Danann (The Dragon
Kings of Anu) on the one hand, and from the Egyptian Dragon dynasty of Sobek
on the other with the latter strain including the Davidic House of Judah and
the Merovingian Kings of the Franks. Emperor Sigismund (as he was styled from
1410) was a son of the House of Luxembourg, which had emerged from an alliance
of houses steeped in the sovereign lore of the Grail and the Pendragons.

Sigismund's personal entitlement to this legacy arose in 1397, at which
time he sought to reconstitute the Court in a manner suitable for the
social and religious conditions of the period. Following its subsequent
formal inception in 1408, the Court attracted members from a number of
prominent royal and noble houses.

Today, the Imperial and Royal Dragon Court exists as a closed fraternity
of individuals, fronted by those who, like Sigismund, trace their
ancestry and affiliations back to the ancient Grail and Dragon families.
The Court retains a traditional three tier degree system, and Sigismund
adopted three separate representations of the alchemical Ouroboros
emblem for the distinct ranks of the Court. A fourth emblem, configured
in the form of the Ankh or Albigensian Cross, was used by the family
officers of the Inner Temple.


http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg01559.html

QUOTE
John Adams, the second president, belonged to a secret society known as The Dragons.


http://www.holygrail-church.fsnet.co.uk/The%20Illuminati.htm

user posted image

user posted image
QUOTE
Queen's shield at Guild Hall, London.
One of the Queen's shields, representing a winged dragon, probably refering to the Queens reptilian decendancy...




user posted image

QUOTE
Winged dragon at entrance City.
In London winged dragons can be found all over the place. Here is one at the entrance of the City of London, which is the financial centre.


Larger Image at Link Below
http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/nwo/022_18A_dragon_city_of_London.jpg

Posted by: JenThom Oct 12 2004, 11:40 PM
Things are beginning to make a lot of sense here. First the Shemsu people show up in Egypt and then they get chased out of Egypt by the Dragons. Of course some of the royal elite would have had to flee with them as well. And that would explain this.

user posted image
http://www.freedomdomain.com/giants5.JPG


user posted image
http://www.duke.edu/~jls26/egypt/oldnef.gif

You posted both of the images Seralia and I'm not sure if you noticed the nearly identical skull-type found in both the statue and one of the skulls that was found in Peru.

Posted by: Wahya Oct 12 2004, 11:46 PM
The Dragon on the shield is Cadwaller's Dragon; the symbol of Wales.

Posted by: JenThom Oct 12 2004, 11:53 PM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Sep 27 2004, 10:31 PM)
The coloration of the bone is what I find to be most interesting about the above skull. It appears to be newer than the others and I almost suspect that since Ankhesenamun disappeared mysteriously, she may not have died in Egypt but fled somewhere else. These skulls were found in Peru and there is a considerable amount of evidence that the Egyptians had reached Peru some time ago and perhaps some members of the royal family decided that it would be safer for them there.

It may have been Ankhesenamun who fled Egypt but more likely it was another one of the daughters who ran off with the Shemsu. and not because of the death of Tut, but because of the invasion of the dragons, though Tut's death may have had something to do with the invasion.

Posted by: Mark Oct 12 2004, 11:57 PM
JenThom, I didn't realize this until recently.

This is the 'front view' of the skull above.

user posted image

Sure is an odd one.

Posted by: JenThom Oct 13 2004, 12:03 AM
QUOTE (Wahya @ Oct 12 2004, 11:46 PM)
The Dragon on the shield is Cadwaller's Dragon; the symbol of Wales.

It's known as the Red Dragon of Cadwallader Wahya and not a good dragon either. blink.gif

QUOTE
The Celtic dragon represents sovereignty, power or a chief, such as Pendragon, the Celtic word meaning 'chief'. The Red Dragon of Cadwallader or Cadwaller is the emblem of Wales - 'upon a mount vert, a dragon passant, wings expanded and endorsed gules - the Red Dragon Dreadful'. It was blazed on King Arthur's helmet in battle, later it was associated with Geoffrey of Monmouth and Owen Glendower. The Saxons had the white dragon as a royal standard. In early Britain it depicted supreme power.


http://www.reptilianagenda.com/hist/h110599a.html

Posted by: Wahya Oct 13 2004, 12:09 AM
Sorry, typo!

Posted by: JenThom Oct 13 2004, 12:16 AM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Oct 12 2004, 11:57 PM)
JenThom, I didn't realize this until recently.

This is the 'front view' of the skull above.

Sure is an odd one.

Not really so odd PuPP. Just a little bit different.

This is an image of one of Akhenaten's daughters and her head is very similar to the skull.

user posted image

Posted by: Seralia Oct 13 2004, 08:47 PM
QUOTE (JenThom @ Oct 12 2004, 11:40 PM)
Things are beginning to make a lot of sense here. First the Shemsu people show up in Egypt and then they get chased out of Egypt by the Dragons. Of course some of the royal elite would have had to flee with them as well. And that would explain this.

Both the skull and the head do appear to be nearly identical and I wouldn't doubt that the skull belonged to someone in Akenaten's family. I think that I read somewhere that one of the daughters did leave Egypt for some reason.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 13 2004, 09:02 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Oct 12 2004, 10:33 PM)
Dang Seralia, I've been looking for the knowledge found in this thread for 2 over years.

You are really putting the pieces together.



And the pieces are still fitting together.

The Shemsu Hor were in Malta as well as Egypt.

Malta: The Skulls of the Mother Goddess

QUOTE
In the megalithic temple of Hal Saflieni, in Malta, men with extraordinary cranial volume were buried. These skulls seem to belong to a strange human stock and if properly analyzed, could create an ideal link between the ancient Mesopotamian and Egyptian cultures and a race of sacerdotal men identified with the snake.


QUOTE
It was known that until 1985 a number of skulls, found in pre-historic Maltese temples at Taxien, Ggantja and Hal Saflieni, were exposed in the Archeological Museum of the Valletta. But since a few years ago, these were removed and placed in the deposits. From then, they were not to be seen by the public. Only the photographs taken by the Maltese researcher Dr. Anton Mifsud and his colleague, Dr. Charles Savona Ventura, remained to testify the existence of the skulls and prove…their abnormality. Books written by the two Maltese doctors, who since our first day in Malta helpfully provided us the necessary documentation for our research, illustrate a collection of skulls that show peculiar abnormalities and/or pathologies. Sometimes inexistent cranial knitting lines, abnormally developed temporal partitions, drilled and swollen occiputs as following recovered traumas, but above all, a strange, lengthened skull, bigger and more peculiar than the others, lacking of the median knitting. The presence of this finding leads to a number of possible hypotheses. The similitude with other similar skulls, from Egypt to South America, the particular deformity, unique in the panorama of medical pathology referred to such distant times, (we are talking about approximately 3000 years before Christ) could be an exceptional discovery. Was that skull a result ancient genetic mutation between different races that lived on that island?


QUOTE
The skulls were all found in the Hal Saflieni hypogeum, where a sacred well was dedicated to the Mother Goddess and where also the small statue of a sleeping goddess was found, associated to a relic with a snake inscription on it. The skulls were brought out of their box one at a time. Among these, all very interesting, was the one we were looking for. The cranium showed a very pronounced dolichocephalous, in other words, a lengthened posterior part of the skullcap, besides the lack of median knitting, technically named "sagitta". This last detail has been considered "impossible" by medics and anatomists to whom we turned, not having (as far as known) analogous pathological cases in international medical literature. It is a characteristic that emphasizes the anomaly of this finding with the result of producing a natural lengthening of the cranium in the occipital area (not due to bandaging or boards as used in pre-Colombian civilizations). We believe that the discovery of this skull and the like at Hal Saflieni isn't accidental.


QUOTE
The long head and drawn features must have given a serpent-like appearance, stretching the eyes and skin. Lacking the lower part of the exhibit, we can only speculate, but the hypothesis can't be far from reality, a reality worsened buy the fact that such deformities certainly created walking problems, forcing him…to slither! The lack of the cranium's median knitting and therefore, the impossibility of the brain's consistent, radial expansion in the skullcap, did so that it developed in the occipital zone of the cerebellum, deforming the cranium that looked like a single cap from the frontal and occipital area. This must have certainly caused the man terrible agony since infancy, but probably enhanced visions that were considered as being proof of a bond with the goddess.


http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/maltaskulls.htm

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 14 2004, 03:45 AM
Seralia, you got my adrenaline going! The Maltese skulls have an interesting history.

QUOTE
Even the other skulls we examined presented strange anomalies. Some were more natural and harmonic than the cranium that mostly gained our attention, but they still presented a pronounced natural dolichocephalous and we could assume, without fear of refutation, that it is distinctive of an actual race, different to the native populations of Malta and Gozo. This consideration was confirmed by the Maltese archeologists themselves, Anthony Buonanno and Mark Anthony Mifsud, who said: "They are another race although C-14 or DNA exams haven't yet been performed. ...


QUOTE
But there is more. A fair part of the 7000 skeletons dug out of the Hal Saflieni hypogeum and examined by Themistocles Zammit in 1921, present artificially performed deformations. A skeleton of the group that was unburied by the archeologist, Brochtorff Circle, shows clear signs of intentional deformation through bondage. These deformations occurred for various reasons: initiations, matrimonies, solar rituals or punishments for social crimes or transgressions. All the tribal apparatus of incisions, perforations, partial or total removals, cauterizations, abrasions, insertions of extraneous bodies in muscles, like the modification of bodies for magical, medical or cosmetic purposes, were part of cruel practices in such, but "with best intentions" for the community.


QUOTE
This race kept its distance from the common people, blending only with the aristocratic classes and the scholar associated them with the Shemsu Hor, the "disciples of Horus".The Shemsu Hor are recognized as the dominant sacerdotal caste in pre-dynastic Egypt (until approximately 3000 B.C.), being mentioned in the Turin papyrus and the list of the kings of Abydos. It's interesting to note that Emery writes: "Towards the end of the IV millennium B.C. the people known as the Disciples of Horus appear as a highly dominant aristocracy that governed entire Egypt.


(PuPP, here is the origin of the word "Shem")

QUOTE
It is an interesting correlation that in Egypt, the Shemsu Hor guaranteed the respect of a solar religion and even today in Malta the sun is called "Shem-shi". "Shem" is a word of "accadic" origin, not Egyptian, deriving from the Babylonian term for the sun, that is "Shamash". This proves that the Shemsu Hor came from the fertile half-moon area. An umpteenth correlation is the fact that this sacerdotal long-skulled caste disappeared in Egypt, as in Malta in the same period, which is between 3000 and 2500 B.C.


QUOTE
...but this culture survived in the Middle East and probably included one of the most famous and yet mysterious pharaohs of Egypt. It concerns the Mithans and the pharaoh Akhenaton.  The reason why Akhenaton was linked to the Mithans will be the subject of a following article but the way he was portrayed in his statues and bas-reliefs (and with him, the whole royal family) is indeed that of an individual of lengthened head and human face but with serpent-likeness, characteristics found in the pre-dynastic Egyptian stock mentioned by Emery, besides being the exact representation of the features of the Nephelims and probably the long-skulled individuals of Malta.


http://andrewcollins.com/page/articles/maltaskulls.htm

The entire article is worth reading. There is mention of the bee, which was used as a symbol by the Merovingians and 300 of them were sewn into Napolean's cape:

QUOTE
"It's noticeable that in Lower Egypt, the pharaoh's symbol is a bee named "Bit". It isn't coincidental that Malta's ancient name is "Melita", which derives from the Latin word for honey. Malta's symbol was also a bee and its hexagonal cells. Melita has its origin in "Mel" or "Mer" that in Ancient Egypt was the name attributed to the pyramids."



BJ


Posted by: Seralia Oct 14 2004, 08:14 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 14 2004, 03:45 AM)
Seralia, you got my adrenaline going!  The Maltese skulls have an interesting history.


Yes they definitely have an interesting history BJ and so does the word Shem. I knew that I've heard the word before and I just remembered where I heard it. greenalien.gif

QUOTE
{{ENTER ZECHARIA SITCHIN}}: In his Earth-shaking book ~ THE 12TH PLANET [examined elsewhere] he states unequivically that the word 'NEFILIM' was "mistranslated" in our common BIBLE because the word meant "THE MEN OF THE SHEM">>cf. p. 171 of the soft-covered edition of his book from AVON BOOKS, 1979 PRINTING<< He further states ~ as a Biblical linguistic scholar of the Sumerian texts upon which THE BIBLE gets its roots ~ that the original meaning of the word "shem"=rocket or rocket ship!!![p.171]

CONCLUSION: by SITCHIN: THAT THESE 'NEFILIM'=THE ANUNNAKI="THOSE WHO FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH CAME." or ~ in other words ~ those who biogenetically were responsible for the creation of "THE ADAM!">>>>>>which is what it says in the Sumerian "myths" which, according to Sitchin ~ IS NOT A MYTH!!?!!


http://hey_223.tripod.com/byronlebeauspoetryampprose/id27.html

QUOTE
The actual meaning of Nefilim means, in its original Hebrew text, "The people of the Shem."

And what does that mean? Shem means, literally, from the Semitic root NFL "to be cast down." Therefore, the true meaning of Nefilim (The people of the Shem) means just that: "Those who were cast down upon earth."

How were they "cast down"? Does this mean that they lost their standing of higher moral order and repute? This seems to have been the interpretations made by those who transcribed the original texts, again, inaccurately.

The terms "cast" and "down" were picked up as having negative meanings rather than literal meanings. This is where emotional bias took over by the early mystical scribes rewriting the texts of Sumer.

However, the original meaning and interpretation of Shem actually means "rocket" or "rocket ship". The subsequent scribes had no comprehension as to what a rocket ship was. They only had their own teachings of mystical origins and, therefore, they misinterpreted the original meaning of Nefilim.

Today, we understand what a rocket is because, once again, they exist. During the time subsequent to the deluge and other catastrophies that occurred since the Nefilim were here on earth and left, flying aircraft and rockets ceased to exist. Therefore, the scribes were totally ignorant of what they were recording.


http://www.rdboyd.com/rdboyd/Nefilim.html

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Now this next part was totally unexpected. blink.gif

Shemsu-Heru: An Egyptian Fraternity

By Candace Jones
Published: Tuesday, October 14, 2003
Page 1 of 1

On Howard's campus, the influence of Greek sororities and fraternities is evident. While many students know the Greek alphabet backward and forward, few are aware of the Ancient Egyptian, or Kemetic, origins of most Greek symbols. The Ancient and Noble Order of the Shemsu-Heru, a Kemetic fraternity, will soon change this conception.

Founded on three organizational principles, knowledge of self and love, community service and development, and fellowship; members of the Shemsu-Heru strive to embrace the cradle of civilization in Kemet and unveil the mysteries and knowledge of Ancient Africa.

According the organization's website, shemsu-heru.com, the founders believe in "Putting oneself in a more powerful position to change themselves and their environments through group ideological solidarity." A call to activism and a thorough knowledge of history attract members to the organization.

"We believe, armed with a unified cultural ethos, we can better address our problems in the Diaspora and on the Continent," Adrian Taylor, a loyal member of the organization, said.

Like the Greek organizations on campus, the members of the Shemsu-Heru promote togetherness and unity.

"We stand with [Greek organizations], believing and acknowledging if it were not for their works and example, we would not have the opportunity to bring our ideals into fruition," Taylor said. "We hold the original Greek fraternal and sororal movements in high esteem, but want to give the campus, the black community, and the human family at large, options as it relates to systematically learning about [African's] story under the banner of African excellence." This notion of unity seconds the motives of Shemsu-Heru: social consciousness, action and the ideas of Marcus Mosiah Garvey."

These motives have influenced the organization's Unity Forum to be held October 15, which is a call to all students who either claim to take part in the struggle or are actually living their words. Taylor says this forum triggers "...student leadership, and people who want to do a little more than wear the 'struggle' on their wrists and backs," referring to the popularity of red, black, and green wristbands and t-shirts bearing the faces of Bob Marley, Malcolm X and Che Guevara. This forum will address collective problems and transcend cultural nationalism. The forum will pinpoint issues in the Howard community as well as on an international level. Attendees are also encouraged to bring ideas and comments that complement the issues addressed.

The Shemsu-Ast is the female division of the organization. This sorority embraces females who are ready and willing to contribute the struggle.

"We are looking for men and women who want to do the work necessary to make themselves and the world a better place for the blossoming of the human potential under the aegis of fraternal and sororal association under an indigenous banner," Taylor said.

"Hopefully there are some things in this piece that can be used to awake HU," Taylor said enthusiastically, encouraging social consciousness and an answer to the Shemsu-Heru's calls to activism.

http://www.thehilltoponline.com/news/2003/10/14/Campus/ShemsuHeru.An.Egyptian.Fraternity-528051.shtml


Posted by: Seralia Oct 14 2004, 08:35 PM
I also did some searching of medical databases to rule out any known medical condition that would be responsible for anything similar to the shape of the egyptian skulls. There is a condition known as Scaphocephaly or Sagittal Synostosis.

QUOTE
Premature closure of the sagittal suture, the longitudinal suture on the top of the head, stops growth laterally producing a narrow head. There is a compensatory growth in the anteroposterior direction with elongation of the skull and a bulging of the front and back of the head. This particular deformity is called scaphocephaly due to the skull's boat shaped appearance. Synostosis of the sagittal suture is the most frequent type of single suture craniosynostosis. It makes up 50-60% of all patients within North America with craniosynostosis. The particular infants with sagittal synostosis characteristically have normal intelligence.


http://www.erlanger.org/craniofacial/book/craniosynostosis/cranio_2.htm

user posted image
user posted image

The above images are preoperative and postoperative and would rule out this condition as being the cause of the elongated skulls of the Egyptian princesses since their skulls are both wide and long. If their skulls had been bound then there would have definitely been a premature closure of the sagittal suture that would have made their skulls narrower than normal. In the front view skull image that was posted by PuPP the sutures appear to be perfectly formed.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 14 2004, 09:18 PM
This is another view of a child with sagittal synotosis.

user posted image

I found this little abstract that mentions fronto-occipital deformation or skull binding and premature sagittal synotosis. scoping.gif

Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Jul;100(3):397-410.

Sutural effects of fronto-occipital cranial modification.

White CD.

Department of Anthropology, University of Western Ontario, London.

Maya adult crania from the site of Lamanai, Belize provide a retrospective means of examining growth processes in the cranial vault. The Lamanai population practiced fronto-occipital deformation which is found to be significantly associated with premature sagittal synostosis and wormian bones of the lambdoidal suture. The undeformed members of the population also exhibit an abnormally high frequency of sagittal synostosis, but a significantly lower frequency than the deformed sample. It is suggested that the deforming apparatus creates tensile forces on the sagittal suture during the peak period of growth of the parietals, and that these forces might induce an adaptive response important in producing premature sagittal synostosis. The undeformed sample may have an increased congenital risk of sagittal synostosis created by their natural brachycephalic morphology in utero. The frequency patterning of wormian bones suggests a mixture of genetic and environmental causes in which tensile forces may also play a role.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8798996&dopt=Abstract

Posted by: Mark Oct 14 2004, 10:55 PM
Ok, the hunt is on for Elongated or Conehead Maltese Skulls.

Malta was also one of those advanced civilizations that just faded away.

I've searched thru Yahoo and there's hardly any info and NO images.

GRRRR

But it sure appears that this race was global and was most likely responsible for the construction of many of the ancient monuments and structures.

I just love forbidden archaeology!

HUGE Thanks to you ALL!

hugs.gif

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 15 2004, 05:14 AM
PuPP, if photos of the Maltese skulls were available, Seralia would have posted them. You looked and I looked, and came up empty. From what I have read, photos and, I think videos were allowed to be taken of the big finds, but it looks like we are not permitted to see them.

Sitchen's half-baked idea that we were created by the ETs flies in the face of what's been published:

QUOTE
THE CONNECTION

"The Nefilim, we are told, ... needed an intermediary between themselves and the masses of humans. They were, they decided, to be gods -- ELU in Akkadian, meaning "lofty ones." As a bridge between themselves as lords and Mankind, they introduced "King-ship" on Earth: appointing a human ruler who would assure Mankind's service to the Gods and channel the teachings and laws of the Gods to the people.
Further:

QUOTE
I. CONCLUSION.

THIS, THEN, amounts to a Secret. A Royal Secret. ...The history of the Authentic Tradition (Freemasonry) involves bloodlines, just like families possess.


http://www.antiqillum.com/texts/bg/Legacy/Legacy008.htm


I think that what we are seeing in these conehead skulls are the ancient remains of the original half-breeds who comprised a race set apart from us. The only way this line has kept power is by draining the wealth from us and maintaining it through their armies, the power of the sword. They are truly parasites, living off the achievements of mankind. I watched PBS' presentation of the Medice popes last night. Unbelievable tyranny. Cunning and ruthless. Yet the people revered them. It reminds me of the magic word "Camelot" that held this country in awe of the Kennedys. We aren't so much enamored in this country as are the Europeans of "royalty". "God save the king!" no matter what they do. This mindset seems to have been ingrained in us since very ancient times. A certain romanticism of history has held us spellbound at times as honor has been given to these thugs. They are truly parasites living off the achievements of man by the power of their armies. A different race indeed!

It appears that we are looking at the skulls of the original half-breeds of the Nephalim. Their bloodline is running thin, so there is a big push for donors to come forth that have Rh O negative blood. Only 7% of the US population has it. Are these the unwitting descendants of the Merovingians? I don't know. Will we unlock the mystery that has kept us enslaved to this race of men for so long? Yes.


BJ


Posted by: Wahya Oct 15 2004, 08:02 AM
Maltese skulls -

http://www.gizapyramid.com/adriano_forgione.htm
http://www.truegood.fsnet.co.uk/pic41.jpg
http://web.genie.it/utenti/m/malta_mega_temples/index.html

I couldnt get images to load on the first URL. Maybe someone on another server could get lucky. I dont know if the pics are of the skulls or not.

The 2nd URL doesnt show much detail.

The 3rd URL is a nice site about the Maltese ruins. Maybe someone will be able to chase down a link?

Posted by: Mark Oct 15 2004, 08:29 AM
Hey Wahya, thanks for the help!

I had also found this site last night...

http://www.gizapyramid.com/adriano_forgione.htm

And the same thing, the 2 images do not display. Someone must have pulled the plug.

Hopefully "our friends" will soon provide us with some images.

ufo.gif

I did find some images of the ruins @ http://www.erikparker.com and I'll make a post or thread soon.

I'll check out your third link too.

Thanks!


Posted by: Mark Oct 15 2004, 10:48 PM
I found some material that seemed somewhat related to our quest. I don't agree with everything the author suggests, but some seems plausible and so I posted it below...

QUOTE
The Scythians, a.k.a. the Danaan (d'Anu), were descendents of the Anunnaki, who, de Vere claims, were not extraterrestrials. In Scandinavia, the Danaan became the Danes or Vikings, and produced a cousin lineage, the Swedes and the Ruotsi clan that founded Russia. In Denmark the castes were called the Jarl, Carl, Thrall. In India the castes were the Brahmins, Ksatriyas and Sudras. But the Scythian Danaan who migrated to Eire (Ireland) and the rest of Europe were a "race apart." They were a ruling caste, claims de Vere. They are the Merovingians.

The Scythians originated in the Balkans, Transylvania, Carpathia and Ukraine. In general, the Scythians ("people of the powers") were tall, pale-skinned, with golden red hair (the red heads) and green eyes.

The Celtic lineage were stocky, squat with dark hair. The Royal Dragon family of the Jews - the House of David - made the Israelites an early Aryan nation.


[Aryans and Israelis appear to be related as well as Indias Brahmins. ~ PuPP]

QUOTE
In fact, Jesus and his mother Mary are often depicted with red hair. The Scythians and Aryan Scythian-Gaels had settlements in Israel and Judea. The Aryans were a horse culture.

The Scythian caste system consisted of three closely interknit cooperating races. From this encounter, de Vere explains, arose the eastern branch of the Aryan, Vedic "Hindu" religion, with its own Druids or magi, the Brahmins. The Vedic religion, claims de Vere, stemmed from this contact with the Elven gods and goddesses who migrated after the flood from the Balkans and Transylvania to Sumeria. He claims, the Tantra and the Qabalah are descended from ancient Ubaid Druidic philosophy, and Sumeria is not the cradle of civilization, but is perhaps the high chair. The first Sumerians, he writes, were Ubaid Overlords from Central Eurasia.


http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/dragonlegacy.html

Posted by: Seralia Oct 15 2004, 11:31 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 15 2004, 05:14 AM)
PuPP, if photos of the Maltese skulls were available, Seralia would have posted them. You looked and I looked, and came up empty. From what I have read, photos and, I think videos were allowed to be taken of the big finds, but it looks like we are not permitted to see them.


I tried almost every trick in the book to find images of the Malta skulls but no luck yet. I was able to find another mention of them though as well as mention of another race called Armenoid.

QUOTE
Excavated Late Neolithic skulls from various hypogea/tombs in Malta and Gozo indicate a long-headed race presenting certain Armenoid features being thus representative of the Mediterranean race. All the skulls excavated from the various sites were reported as being Dolicocephalic. In comparison with modern Maltese skulls, the Neolithic material differs only by being consistently longer and narrower. The present hybrid and genetic make-up of the Maltese race is the result of the impact of history. The genetic mixture is primary Levantine with strong Greco-Roman and Arab influence. European blood, mainly Italian, Spanish and French, was assimilated in due course and the traces of Anglo-Saxon are the result of the long period of British rule.


http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/2615/introd.htm

You might be right about us not being permitted to see the skulls BJ. I found this mention of them in what appears to be some sort of TV listing. blink.gif 7,000 skulls are being hidden somewhere. sweating.gif

QUOTE
[TV] Atlantis
12-02-2002 18:05:56 @ Flooded Kingdoms of the Ice Age
The title of the documentary on Channel 4 - 'Lost Kingdoms of the Ice Age' - sounds a bit dramatic, and Graham Hancock, the journalist who's presenting his 'controversial' amateur research on early human history doesn't mind hamming up his face-off with the archaeological establishment (and everyone else, too). But, aside from the odd theory about 7000 mysterious ancient skulls from a Maltese temple being 'disappeared' byt the archaeological establishment in order to maintain the theoretical status quo, the bloke's actually asking a reasonably sensible set of questions.


http://www.pressure.to/cccp/2002/02/


Posted by: Wahya Oct 15 2004, 11:32 PM
QUOTE
The Celtic lineage were stocky, squat with dark hair.



Then the Romans must have been midgets because thay often remarked about the size of Celts/Gauls. I dont agree with this.

My mother is scottish and welsh and the men in her family are tall and stocky. I'm one of the shorter ones at 6'5".
~~~~~~~

QUOTE
"Their hair was of gold, their clothing was of gold, and light stripes brightened their cloaks. Their milk-white necks had gold collars around them, a pair of alpine spears glinted in each warrior's hands, and their bodies protected by tall shields."

- Virgil, The Aenid, Book VIII circa 20 BC


QUOTE
"The Gauls are tall, with moist white flesh; their hair is not only naturally blonde, but they also make artificial efforts to lighten it by washing it frequently in lime water."

- Diodorus Siculus, Historical Library, Book V circa 50 BC


QUOTE
"Their strength is due partly to their size - for they are large - and partly to their numbers..."

- Strabo, Geography Book IV circa 17 AD


QUOTE
"The Gauls are tall and have a high opinion of themselves."

- Arrian,  Anabasis of Alexander Book I circa 160 AD



Posted by: Mark Oct 15 2004, 11:58 PM
Seralia, I have a feeling that we'll be able to have access to those Malta skulls soon. I'll keep hunting...and thank you for your continued quest here.

hugs.gif

I've got the genes of what I call the "marshmallow" people in me. As a child my mother always said, "you're just stocky, or husky"

I worked out for 4 hours a day as a teen to make sure I didn't turn into the fat man of the circus.

user posted image


user posted image

But I hear ya Wahya, the author just doesn't have it all together yet, and neither do we, though we're getting there.


Posted by: Mark Oct 16 2004, 12:16 AM
Malta Female sculpture

user posted image

Sure looks like primitive art to me. Like a 7 year old made it.

And it has the "marshamallow" characteristics.

We are taught that the high fat and carbohydrate foods that we eat is what causes people to become overweight or obese, but it's actually genetic.

I eat one meal a day (when I'm not exercising) so I don't end up with cottage cheese thighs. blink.gif

Ok, back to the hunt.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 16 2004, 03:39 PM
No luck on the Malta Skulls yet but I did find what appears to be an alien skull that was supposedly discovered in the Vatican Library during a restoration project.

user posted image

http://www.greatdreams.com/ufos/vatican.htm

Then I found an image that is supposedly a plastered skull that was discovered in Jericho. blink.gif

user posted image

http://www.marsearthconnection.com/connections.html


Posted by: BJ1 Oct 16 2004, 04:27 PM
Hi, you guys! Wahya gave us that website @gizapyramid.com which nobody could open. I asked my daughter if she would try since she has AOL. Voila! I don't know what to make of this, but one of the skulls looks like someone put a cap on it.

BTW, PuPP, you were lucky to get the sculptures. Nice going.
Seralia, that top skull you posted looks like it belonged to an ET, judging by the shape of the eye bones! I might ask, too, commenting on the post of the history of the Maltese people, how did they get all of that info without testing for DNA?

I submit the following to you because of the sutures(?)...those things that are supposed to close up in time. Seralia, you may be better able than I to explain them. Maybe they are something, maybe not.


user posted image

user posted image


BJ

Posted by: Mark Oct 16 2004, 08:30 PM
Wahya, excellant descriptions. Glad I scrolled back up.

Seralia.... WHOA! I think that is definitely an alien skull - if it is real.

BJ, I just checked the link again, and the images still don't display for me.

Be sure to thank your daughter from us all. That was really nice of her. And thank you for posting them. I saved all of the images and will add them to my next CD backup.


Here's a couple of images of Malta.

user posted image

user posted image

Soon, I'll make a thread for Malta.

I'd like to have a thread for each ancient civilization possible. I've already collected a few images of Machu Pichu and am still aquiring more.

Posted by: JenThom Oct 16 2004, 11:50 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 16 2004, 04:27 PM)
Hi, you guys! Wahya gave us that website @gizapyramid.com which nobody could open. I asked my daughter if she would try since she has AOL. Voila! I don't know what to make of this, but one of the skulls looks like someone put a cap on it.


Those are really some unusual skulls and I'm not sure why one of them appears to have a cap on it but the sutures on the first skull appear to be deformed and it also appears to have been damaged while the person was still alive. bop.gif It looks like a good solid blow to the side of the head with a rather large object as well as a triangle shaped indentation made by a small triangular metallic stone drill.

The second skull looks like one of those Shemsu skulls and is missing a suture and appears to be really ancient.

Posted by: Wahya Oct 17 2004, 12:06 AM
I think the triangular mark on the skull looks like a glancing blow from an arrow or spear point.

I have hunted with stone tipped arrows and spears and seen a grazing wound to a bone at an angle make a mark similar to that.

I'd need a better look though. An arrow fired from a high poundage bow will often splinter the bone when it hits due to the spin of the arrow in flight.

But at such an old piece of bone though...who knows?

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 17 2004, 12:26 PM
While looking for those elusive skulls, I reread an earlier article that has this to stay about skulls with holes in them, which explains in part as to why this should occur:

QUOTE
...Meanwhile, it's worth the while to emphasize that one of these skulls showed unequivocal signs of surgical intervention in the occipital area. The outlines of three small holes, made in the occipital bone called inion, had time to cicatrize, therefore the patient survived the operation although such intervention surely would have undermined his motorial faculties. But there is more. A fair part of the 7000 skeletons dug out of the Hal Saflieni hypogeum and examined by Themistocles Zammit in 1921, present artificially performed deformations. A skeleton of the group that was unburied by the archeologist, Brochtorff Circle, shows clear signs of intentional deformation through bondage. These deformations occurred for various reasons: initiations, matrimonies, solar rituals or punishments for social crimes or transgressions.


http://andrewcollins.com/page/articles/maltaskulls.htm



BJ

Posted by: Mark Oct 17 2004, 05:27 PM
Here's a couple of images from a Brazilian site that Thessa shared.
http://www.dominiosfantasticos.hpg.ig.com.br

Remember the movie Predator with Ahhhnold?
This skull appears fairly old and calsified

user posted image

This one below, to me, resembles a grey.

user posted image

Posted by: Seralia Oct 17 2004, 05:41 PM
QUOTE (Wahya @ Oct 17 2004, 12:06 AM)
I think the triangular mark on the skull looks like a glancing blow from an arrow or spear point.

I played around with the image a bit and it does appear to be a wound consistant with a prolectile weapon Wahya. Not only that but it also appears that the person was struck in the left side of the head. There also does appear to be some deformation of the sutures possibly as a result of binding. However, neither skull seems to have a saggital suture which might indicate that they are of the same or similar species.

This is a top view of a normal human skull and all the sutures, including the saggital suture, can clearly be seen.

user posted image

Even chimpanzees have saggital sutures.

user posted image


And so does this skull of Homo heidelbergensis. Both Heidelbergensis and Neanderthal have similar skulls with a bigger frontal bone than a normal human skull BTW. Heidelbergensis lived about 800,000 years ago and had a much smaller skull than neanderthal and this one had a 1300 cc brain capacity.

user posted image

Some of the non-Egyptian elongated skulls almost seem to have characteristics of heidelbergensis which is quite interesting but the majority of the elongated non-Egyptian skulls appear to have Saggital Sutures. blink.gif

user posted image




Posted by: Seralia Oct 17 2004, 05:47 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Oct 17 2004, 05:27 PM)
Here's a couple of images from a Brazilian site that Thessa shared.

shock.gif Now that bottom skull is really frightening PuPP but has a similar skull shape as the elongated skulls and doesn't appear to have any sutures. Especially the saggital suture. I wouldn't say that it resembled a gray but I was watching a documentary on UFO abductions on the History channel and one of the aliens that were depicted had a similarly shaped head with the same type of narrow protruding jaw. blink.gif

Posted by: Seralia Oct 17 2004, 06:10 PM
I almost forgot about this skull which belonged to Herto man or Homo sapiens idaltu. They discovered this type of skull in Ethiopia and this skull in particular has a brain capacity of 1450 ccs which is slightly larger than a normal human skull. Believe it or not... this skull is 160,000 years old.

user posted image

Posted by: Seralia Oct 17 2004, 06:56 PM
I found a copy of a report concerning the daughters of Akhenaten that is quite interesting.

Mansoor Amarna Collection
Dr. Reiner R.R. Protsch Report
From the J.W. Goethe University, Frankfurt/Main, Germany

QUOTE
The following is a final report on an anthropological-morphological examination given to 6 statuettes of princesses, 9 heads of princesses, as well as one Bas-relief showing two seated princesses. Besides representations of princesses two heads of Akhenaton in pink limestone ( size 6" x 4" and 5 1/2" x 3 " ) as well as one head of Nefertiti in pink limestone ( 9" x 6" ) were morphologically examined.

The morphological examination concentrated on the following points :

1. Physical features of Nefertiti and Akhenaton which might appear in their daughters.
2. Comparison of physical features of the Akhenaton and Nefertiti individuals of the Mansoor Collection to other known collections i.e. Berlin and Kairo.
3. Comparison of physical features of the princesses to other known representations of other collections i.e. Berlin and Kairo.
4. How many of the 6 daughters of Akhenaton and Nefertiti are actually represented in the Mansoor Collection.


QUOTE
The nine heads of princesses of the Mansoor collection represent six different individuals, the six statuettes five different individuals. These heads are neither deformed ( unknown in Egyptian times ), nor pathological, but a particular genetical, somewhat extraordinary family type.


QUOTE
In Norma parietalis ( side view ) all heads display an extreme postauricular length. The occipital displays a bending over downwards. The position of the ears is somewhat too high, when compared to present-day individuals. The height of the forehead displays a normal curve. At Norma verticalis, vertical to the ear-eye-plane, the head is exceptionally wide and oval formed. All reliefs of the skin, muscles, and bone are exceptionally well represented. Again, this is only possible by copying from a living individual. All parts are anatomically correct positioned as for example the infantile lower forehead and two well-formed frontal bosses and the somewhat constricted temples. These features are practically identical with Berlin 21223. The ears display astonishing detail and elaborate wrinkling, usually more prominent in young individuals. Even the muscles of the temples above the ears can be seen in detail as well as the neck muscles with a clearly defined Sulcus medianus nuchae.

The facial features are again extremely delicately modeled and without exception very similar to Berlin 21223. Even the Plica palpebronasalis( fold above the nose and lid ) which leads into Plica palpebromalaris can be seen. The princesses show thus remnants of infantile epicanthi. Below the chin an oblique Sulcus can be seen, again anatomically correct positioned. Several heads ( 6" x 31/2"; 4" x 3";5" x 3 1/2";6" x 3 1/2" ) show a small adams apple (Prominentia laryngea ) at the ventral side of the neck. There are in all princess-figurines two smaller flat areas which are positioned somewhat above the Tuber frontale. Between these is a sagittal Eminentia mediana frontalis. All heads have well rounded occipitals with well represented attachments of the muscles of the neck.

I could go into more anatomical details, but the above should suffice, especially when it is obvious that all heads, and especially one, are apart from minor details and differences which are those normally showing up in different individuals morphologically and anthropologically the same as Berlin 21223. They are also very similar to Berlin 21364, Kairo 44869, and Kairo 44870. Some features also remind of Berlin 17951, especially the overall form of the head. Berlin 21223 possibly represents the same princess as the Mansoor Collection 6" x 3 1/2" head in pink limestone. Differences between the six princesses, represented in the Mansoor Collection by 9 heads, are solely due to expression, with some individual differences of nose, chin, eyes, the occipital, and the size of the neck. All heads are eury-,pseudodolichomorphic. Since they are still fairly young but have already attained at least 95 % of their adult brain capacity it can be expected that with full adult growth the peculiar head-form will become less pronounced.


http://www.mansooramarnacollection.com/docs/protsch6.html


Posted by: Mark Oct 17 2004, 07:12 PM
Compare these two images "allegedly" from an interview with a living ET or Biological entity and the skull from the Brazilian website.

user posted image user posted image user posted image

Posted by: Wahya Oct 17 2004, 09:39 PM
greenalien.gif UFO2.gif alien1.gif ufo.gif conehead.gif



abduct.gif (It was aliens, man!) beammeup.gif

Posted by: Seralia Oct 17 2004, 10:07 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Oct 17 2004, 07:12 PM)
Compare these two images "allegedly" from an interview with a living ET or Biological entity and the skull from the Brazilian website.

beammeup.gif

The skull type is nearly identical in both of the images PuPP. huh.gif I almost forgot about that "alien" interview.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 18 2004, 05:37 AM
I am breathless, PuPP and Seralia! The photos of the skulls you have found is absolutely priceless! What a treasure!

PuPP, you mentioned putting up a pinned thread for showing the megalith sites. I have some good sites for Malta and also some for Mount Nemrut in Turkey that I found while googling for more on Malta. Amazing stuff! Since I don't want to detract from the topic of this thread, I would ask your advice on where you would rather I post them. None of the sites for Mount Nemrut will allow me to copy the photos, though. What a loss!

BTW, I have some files on the Basques, but no luck with the skulls that would make for good posts.

BJ

Posted by: Mark Oct 18 2004, 05:44 AM
BJ, I have 30 images archived already from Malta. Hagar Qim, Ggantija and Mnajdra - I'll make a thread soon - but I'm tired right now.

I also have some more cool images to add for Japans underwater megalith and I just posted a Machu Pichu thread last night and added Chinese pyramids to Wahyas thread.

Posted by: trista Oct 18 2004, 08:42 AM
Fascinating thread guys.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 18 2004, 01:40 PM
I have spent the full day tracking down pictures of a child's skeleton, not an easy task! Seralia, you remember how I questioned that there were only five ribs on either side of the Egyptian child? That just didn't seem right to me and hung around the back of my mind until I couldn't stand it anymore. Ha. So now I present this:

user posted image


user posted image

QUOTE
Bone formation begins in utero and continues for nearly two decades. Peak bone mass  refers to the point when a bone will be at its maximum density.


http://www.uncg.edu/ant/courses/sandford/559/content/osteology.htm

It appears to me that the Egyptian skeleton is either that of an alien, or carries some other genetic anomaly that would cause only 5 ribs to form on each side. At any rate, it is rather odd. Or it could be a freak of nature. scratchinghead.gif

BJ

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 18 2004, 01:45 PM
PuPP! Help! The above post stretches from Texas to Florida! Will you please fix it?

My screen has gone haywire. It keeps shifting to the left. huhNEW.gif

It may be caused by the huge pic of the embryonic infant. It was a normal-sized pic...then this! Oh, my.

BJ

Posted by: Mark Oct 18 2004, 02:58 PM
eyeball.gif eyeball.gif

sadoriginal.gif

Done, I had to edit this sad smiley and it was just easier for me to use a different one, but I agree, it was a bit ugly. I may still use it as a SAD emoticon.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 18 2004, 03:07 PM
That's much better! Thank you for rescuing the post so we can read it in one piece.

You're an angelsmiley.gif

BJ

Posted by: Mark Oct 18 2004, 03:15 PM
You're Welcome BJ. smileNew4.gif

Sometimes images on webpages have been resized to fit and when you save it to your HD you get the original full size. I've had that happen a lot to me also.

I use Irfan View to resize my images.

Its' an awesome little viewing program.

You can download it thru my http://pupp.mentalstimulation.com/puppsplace.htm

face.gif

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 18 2004, 07:19 PM
Seralia, I don't think the triangular perforation is the result of a projectile or other weapon injury but rather is an example of trepanation which was widely practiced in the ancient world. The standard anthropological explanation is that trepanning was practiced since at least Neanderthal times to relieve pressure from blunt trauma injury. In the case of prehistoric Andean cultures this is undoubtedly true but there is another motive behind this practice. That is, to achieve an altered state of consciousness. It will not take much searching by a person of your remarkable research skills to find numerous examples of this practice as exemplified by perhaps hundreds of skulls from all periods of human experience.

The "Aryans" are first exemplified by the Kurgans who over ran the more peaceable dominions of Old Europe as soon as the horse was domesticated. Different names are assigned to various groups but essentially the horse barbarians are the Cimmerians, Scythians, Tauri, and Centaurs of Herodotus and of much much earlier times. They signal the fall of the the civilization of the Goddess who is portrayed in a most naturalistic and accurate manner in the Maltese figurine. In all cultures which must contend with high infant mortality and harsh physical condition the utmost symbol of fecudity and abundance is the well padded female form. This fact is self evident even in the present where such conditions still exist and that would be most of the nonindustrialized world.

Listen to Wahya for I have found him to be exceedingly well informed and accurate in his postings here. The Celts were by and large big people; perhaps you are confusing them with the Iberians who are considerably different people genetically from the Celts with whom they interbred to form the Celtiberians.

Posted by: Seralia Oct 18 2004, 10:38 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 18 2004, 01:40 PM)
It appears to me that the Egyptian skeleton is either that of an alien, or carries some other genetic anomaly that would cause only 5 ribs to form on each side. At any rate, it is rather odd. Or it could be a freak of nature.


The skull of the Egyptian child appears to be a variation of what has been called the pumpkin head skull type but then again it could also be another royal daughter. It is difficult to tell without seeing a profile of the skull. scratchinghead.gif

There has been so much talk of the six daughters of Akhenaten but do you think that I was able to find a single one of their mummies? rolleyes.gif They're just as well hidden as the Malta skulls. It seems that these people were almost everywhere in the world and that skull binding was practiced almost everywhere in the world but so far not too many images have turned up.

I was able to track a group of them to central Asia in the Ferghana Valley region but no images have turned up yet.

QUOTE
T.K. Khodzhajov noted that the population of Ferghana belonged to the mesobrachiocranic type, characteristic for the region between the two major Central Asian rivers Amu Darja and Sir Darja. Isolated representatives of the dolichocranic Mediterranean type have been found in the south and in the west of the valley. A notable Mongoloid admixture was found in south-eastern Ferghana [Khodzhajov, 1980].


QUOTE
The Ferghana ethnos was formed on the basis of the Europoid tribes of the valley ad the fore-mountains of Ferghana. Through contacts they developed a specific ethnic culture.

Another indicator of ethnicity was the language. Sjuan Czjan wrote in the VII c. that the language of the Ferghanis was different from the languages of the other countries. Hoj Chao also wrote in the VIII c. that the Ferghana languages was completely different from those of the other countries [Bernshtam, 1952. p. 193]. It probably belonged to the Eastern Iranian group of languages [Livshic, 1968].

The objects of art provide glimpse to the appearance of the ancient Ferghanis. We have in mind the sculptures from Kajragach. As already mentioned these sculptures depicted the images of the honoured ancestors and portrayed really existing individuals. Although quite similar and depicting the ethnic type, each of the sculptural images has some specific, unique to it features. The Kajragach sculptured describe quite accurately the physical type of the population of Western Ferghana.

All statues have heads with slant fore-heads which speaks that artificial deformation has been practised. All sculptures have long almond-like eyes and long, strongly protruding noses which shows the people were Europoid. However, there were two types of faces. Five sculptures show broad-faced people belonging to the type characteristic for the region between Amu Darja and Sir Darja. Seven other sculptures depict narrow-faced and long-headed people of the Mediterranean type.

One more find portraying the physical appearance of the local people came from Karajgach. The face of a man with coarse features appears on one clay vessel. It was drawn with a sharp object before the clay was fired. The face has a long, hawkish nose, a massive, protruding chin, a big, stretched in a smile mouth, and big almond-like eyes. The forehead is very slant which makes the cranial dome take a nearly conical shape. The head has a helmet-like headdress. It looks as if the artist had followed the canons depicting the rulers on the coins: the head of the ruler in a profile, but turned to the right this time. But the vessel shows a really existing person, and not a king. This sketch as well as the sculptures show people of the Europoid type with a ring deformation of the skull.

These anthropomorphic images correlate very well with the actual skull types found at Kajragach by the anthropologists. Two type of Europoids had been buried in he Kajragach mound – of the Mediterranean type and of the type of the region between the two Central Asian rivers.


http://www.kroraina.com/ca/eh_ferghana.html








Posted by: Seralia Oct 18 2004, 11:27 PM
QUOTE (Tex Arcana @ Oct 18 2004, 07:19 PM)
Seralia, I don't think the triangular perforation is the result of a projectile or other weapon injury but rather is an example of trepanation which was widely practiced in the ancient world. The standard anthropological explanation is that trepanning was practiced since at least Neanderthal times to relieve pressure from blunt trauma injury. In the case of prehistoric Andean cultures this is undoubtedly true but there is another motive behind this practice. That is, to achieve an altered state of consciousness. It will not take much searching by a person of your remarkable research skills to find numerous examples of this practice as exemplified by perhaps hundreds of skulls from all periods of human experience.

I have found quite a few examples of trepanned skulls Tex and trepanation was practiced by almost every culture that practiced skull binding and this skull dates from the Inca civilization.

user posted image

Trephination dates back to the Neolithic period and in the cases of medical intervention, most of them were considerably large as can be seen in this skull.

user posted image

QUOTE
An ancient skull found on a London riverbank with a large hole in it shows that brain surgery was performed at least 3,750 years earlier than thought.

The skull, dated by English Heritage to 1750 B.C., belonged to an adult male. The hole in the top of the skull was made during a gruesome operation called trepanation.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020819/brain.html#

This is another example that was discovered in Italy and is was said that there were many similar trepanned skulls found in the region with about three fourths of them having been found in males.

user posted image

I did read somewhere that some of the holes in trepanned skulls in certain parts of the world were covered with some type of thin gold material for some reason that I am very suspicious of.

user posted image

The triangular hole in that one skull seems to be too small to have been used for medical intervention of what appears to be a rather severe head injury and is also in the wrong place. I enlarged the hole as far as I could and it appears to be more consistant with a puncture wound with a piece of the skull driven inward on an angle on the flat side of the hole. If it had been trepanned then the hole would have been rounded and any loose pieces would have been removed.




Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 19 2004, 05:39 AM
I must not have looked closely enough, but any shattered material remaining would certainly rule out the trepanned skull explanation. The gold covered trepanned opening most likely relates to the altered consciousness motive. There used to be an article on the web about a modern day woman who trepanned herself with a dremel tool to test the theory that release of pressure creates all sorts of sensory alterations. She ate a big steak immediately after to make up for the loss of blood she said. Morbidly fascinating to read, if you can still find it. I can't remember where I saw the trepanned Neanderthal skull but it may have been in Secrets of the Stone Age, the companion volume to Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age. miner.gif

Posted by: Mark Oct 19 2004, 05:51 AM
Tex
QUOTE
There used to be an article on the web about a modern day woman who trepanned herself with a dremel tool to test the theory that release of pressure creates all sorts of sensory alterations.


I saw that on a tv show. Man it was bizarre. She really did cut open her skull and seemed fine afterwards.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 19 2004, 10:14 AM
Hi, everybody! I did some googling to try to find the possible causes of the strange skull holes and came up with some interesting articles.

According to the following reports, we may assume that the most of the holes found in skulls represent wounds, surgery to alleviate pressure, medical experiments, or torture. The process for mummification was elaborate in that organ removal was employed as well as the brain, then the body stuffed with sawdust to absorb moisture, then resin was poured into the cavities. Here are the texts and photos:

QUOTE
To the Egyptians the brain had no special significance. The brain is extracted through the nasal canal with long bronze needles with hooks or spiral ends. Most people might think that the brain would come out in one piece. The process of removing the brain would come out in one piece. (sic) The process of removing the brain is trepanning.

This is so hard that that it comes out in tiny chunks. Sometimes the nasal wall was partially or completely removed. Then the large hole could be made at the base of the skull.

(Then followed the process of organ removal for mummification...an elaborate procedure.)

Stuffing the body was the next process. The stuffing began with the brain.

They filled the brain (cavity) with clothes impregnated with resin or with lichen.


(Note: the above sounds like it was written by a high-schooler, but one who had done some research.)

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/poundhorror/mummi
----------------------------

QUOTE
During the 18th Dynasty, the brain began to be removed, most often through the nostril (occasionally through an eye socket or a hole drilled into the skull). After removal, the brain cavity was filled with sawdust, resin, and/or resin-soaked linen. By the end of the 2nd Century A.D., brain removal had mostly stopped.


http://www.mummytombs.com/egypt/insides.htm
-----------------------------

QUOTE
Fig. 1B. —Male mummy from 21st Dynasty who was older than 18 years at death. Defects of ethmoidal sinuses are depicted in multiplanar and three-dimensional formats. Sagittal CT scan shows transnasal passageway of brain removal (arrow) in plane that allows better conceptualization of location, length, and appearance of defect.


user posted image

QUOTE
Fig. 14. —Facial features of child mummy from 25th or 26th Dynasty who was approximately 2 years old at death. Sex of infant could not be determined. Volume-rendered surface—display reformation shows wad of linen (arrowhead) over left nares.


user posted image

QUOTE
Fig. 4. —Intracranial contents of female mummy from 21st Dynasty. When left intact, brain (large arrow) typically atrophied and fell within dependent portion of skull. Meningeal linings (small arrow) can also be identified, evidence that no attempt was made to remove intracranial contents. 

user posted image

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/figsonly/178/6/1367

Several specimens can be seen at the above site.


BJ

Posted by: DarmonVing Oct 19 2004, 02:35 PM
QUOTE (BJ1 @ Oct 19 2004, 01:14 PM)
According to the following reports, we may assume that the most of the holes found in skulls represent wounds, surgery to alleviate pressure, medical experiments, or torture. The process for mummification was elaborate in that organ removal was employed as well as the brain, then the body stuffed with sawdust to absorb moisture, then resin was poured into the cavities.

To certain cultures, the brain was more important than the body and so it was removed and given special attention as I have seen with some archaeological sites.
Up until a few thousand years ago, bodies were buried but they switched over to cremation as the method of disposing of the brain and/or body. The body was placed on an altar and the brain was removed and placed on a smaller altar. Both the brain and body were then cremated. I've seen two archaeological sites in New England where this was done. One of the sites had a large altar that was in the shape of a toppled standing stone that had a place for the brain and a place for the body. The other site had two separate altars that were composed of quartz with one of them large enough to hold a body and a smaller one beside it for the brain.

Some of the Trephination marks that I have seen show definite signs of healing so the patients were alive when the procedure was performed and lived long enough for the wound to begin to heal or almost heal completely.

This skull shows a considerable amount of healing and so the person survived the operation.

user posted image

This person had a a lot of problems. He or she had five Trephinations with one that had just been performed before the person died. bricks.gif

user posted image.

This is what they found when they examined the skull. huhNEW.gif

QUOTE
Cranium; Cinco Cerros, Peru; Prehistoric; Adult male. Large healed trephination involving frontal - left, resulting in aperture approx. 3.2 x 2.0 cm. Large healed lesion (probably trephination) left parietal (center) including sagittal suture, resulting in small aperture approx. 05 x 0.2 cm. Multiple destructive lesions with irregular edges (no evidence of new bone) on frontal, parietals, sphenoid (left, great wing) and occipital [metastatic carcinoma?]. Destruction of left side of face (barely visible in slide) probably at least partly due to this pathology. Healed fracture of left zygomatic arch.


http://www.neurosurgery.org/cybermuseum/pre20th/treph/trephination.html



Posted by: DarmonVing Oct 19 2004, 02:55 PM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Oct 19 2004, 02:27 AM)
The triangular hole in that one skull seems to be too small to have been used for medical intervention of what appears to be a rather severe head injury and is also in the wrong place. I enlarged the hole as far as I could and it appears to be more consistant with a puncture wound with a piece of the skull driven inward on an angle on the flat side of the hole. If it had been trepanned then the hole would have been rounded and any loose pieces would have been removed.

I zoomed in on that hole myself and there does seem to be some jagged pieces on the right side of it so I would also have to rule out that the skull was trepanned Seralia.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 19 2004, 03:56 PM
QUOTE
To certain cultures, the brain was more important than the body and so it was removed and given special attention as I have seen with some archaeological sites.


DarmonVing, glad to see you here! I read some time back that some cultures removed the brain of the deceased and actually ate it! I forget why for, but it seemed a gruesome practice to me. Wish I could remember where that subject was found. I may come up with it.

BJ

Posted by: DarmonVing Oct 19 2004, 04:54 PM
I'm glad to be back BJ. There is one quote that was taken from a book called "Pi in the Sky" which was written by Michael Poynder that I read a while back which describes how at least some of the ancients treated the brain of an individual.

QUOTE
When the older priest, a master, passed on, his remains would be cremated and his mortal brain would be trepanned and ceremoniously burnt. The body itself was of little importance but the brain was the cosmic computer that had finally been shut down. It could not be left to wither gradually in the dust but through the medium of earth, air, fire and water, it required the final impetus to move on its eternal path back into the solar rays.


Some cultures did eat the brains of the dead and some rather primative ones still do. Others stripped the flesh off the bodies and discarded it or ate it but the one stone carving culture that I have studied cremated their dead or most of their dead anyway. One researcher did find evidence that they sometimes buried the bodies of warriors in some of their most sacred places so that their spirits would protect them.

Posted by: DarmonVing Oct 19 2004, 05:40 PM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Oct 19 2004, 01:38 AM)
It seems that these people were almost everywhere in the world and that skull binding was practiced almost everywhere in the world but so far not too many images have turned up.

I found a replica of a skull that was both trepanned and bound. winkNEW.gif

user posted image
http://www.captainkazoo.com/trep.html

You can get one for under $200 here. http://www.skullsunlimited.com/trephined-bound-human-skull.html

It says on the site that the trepanning was done to relieve pressure on the brain caused by the binding of the skull.

user posted image

QUOTE
Trephined Human Skull - This 1200 year old skull originates from the Tuanacen tribe of Bolivia. The practice of head binding to create an elongated skull and trephination date back nearly 9000 years. Trephination was the process of removing a section of skull to relieve pressure caused by the binding process or to allow access to the brain. Surprisingly, patients survived these primitive surgeries as is evidenced by the healed .


If these elongated skulls were caused by skull binding then there should be evidence of trephination. nyuknyuk.gif Those skulls look pretty solid to me.




Posted by: DarmonVing Oct 19 2004, 05:58 PM
Look what I found. Two plaster reproduction skulls. One trepanned and one elongated.

user posted image

QUOTE
Skull with annular deformation
In addition to medical information obtained from skeletons, we also gain cultural information. Some groups of Native American deliberately shaped the skull for beauty. This example is of the kind seen in the Aymara people living near lake Titicaca who preferred a long head shape. This was produced by wrapping a tight circular binding around the baby’s head soon after birth while the bones are still pliable.

Trephined skull
Trephination – removing part of the skull – was a surgical treatment for head injuries and brain disorders. This skull has one trephination, which shows some signs of healing; apparently the patient dies after the operation but not immediately. Trephination was practiced more successfully in the Americas than in Europe.


http://www.ccmuseumedres.com/tour.php?action=details&record=35

I wonder if the Aymara people are related to the Egyptian Amarna dynasty. scratchinghead.gif rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Mark Oct 19 2004, 05:59 PM
Hey Darmon Ving, good to see you back in action!

Tons more info since you were last here - my head hurts now, can someone trepan my skull? heh

I believe those who bound their skulls were trying to emulate their large skulled gods.

Ya know what simply amazes me?

Thousands of years ago, the ancients were performing these operations, yet in the USA civil war, the doctors sawed off arms and legs using bloody puss covered tools and no anesthesia. It was as if they had NO knowledge whatsoever.


Posted by: Mark Oct 19 2004, 07:10 PM
I found this link in my bookmarks. It's another website with the image of the Alien? Skull that I found through the Brazilian website that Thessa showed me .

user posted image


and the skeleton

user posted image

http://www.holman.net/ufo/alienskeleton/

EDIT: This may be a HOAX, crafted from wax or carved.

Tex or one of our excellant researchers here may be able to shed some more light.

QUOTE
Alien Skeleton:
HOAX or HISTORY ?
By Jimmie L. Holman

A BRIEF (but necessary) HISTORY OF THE PICTURES AND EVENTS


http://www.holman.net/ufo/alienskeleton/The_NARRIATION/the_narriation.html

Posted by: DarmonVing Oct 19 2004, 07:32 PM
Hey PuPP this thread has certainly grown quite a bit since I last visited here and so have the list of smilies. 1LizardEyeSM.gif 1LizardEyeSM.gif

That is one unusual skeleton BTW. The arms are too short and the hands are too big and check out that four fingered hand.

user posted image

Seralia has done some good tracking of the long heads and I might be right that the Aymara have some connection with the Amarna dynasty since Seralia did track them long heads to Central Asia. rolleyes.gif Nice job Seralia.

I found this in someone's Bolivian travelogue.

QUOTE
The Aymara were direct descendants of the Tiahuanacans and its believed that they still speak a closely related language. Our guide says that there are several English language words that came directly from the Tiahuanacan language. Also, many of the faces carved in stone show distinctly Asian features, so it is believed that these people had some kind of interaction with Asian people. Tiahuanaco is thought to be the birthplace of civilization in the Americas.


http://azeotropic.freeservers.com/photo.html

Here is some more information on the Aymara BTW.

QUOTE
The Aymara are an ancient people with a complex and still imperfectly understood history. They are a people rich in myth, knowledge and spirituality. The Aymara were the members of a great but little-known culture of the Americas centered in the ancient city of Tiahuanaco. Between 400 AD. and 1000 AD. Tiahuanaco was the capital of an empire that spanned great parts of the south-central Andes Mountains.


QUOTE
Prior to conquest by the Inca, the Aymara were divided into a series of independent states which were concentrated on the Altiplano in the present day republics of Peru and Bolivia. There were twelve separate kingdoms, which were collectively referred to as the Collas (Aymara Kingdoms: Sixteenth Century ). It was by exploiting these divisions that the Inca entered into the northern Altiplano and eventually extended their rule over the Aymara territory in the late fifteenth century.


http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/South_america/aymara_culture.htm

Ahhhhhhh an Egyptian/Bolivian connection. whistling.gif

QUOTE
In his book "Legend - the Genesis of Civilisation", archaeologist David Rohl proposes that the ancient Egyptian culture was founded by Sumerians who landed on the shores of the Red Sea. He shows pictures of early reed ships painted on cave walls in the Eastern Egyptian Desert. What he does not mention or consider, is that these reed ships painted on the cave walls are identical to reed ships in Bolivia - see photo with sample from museum in Bolivia. He also mentions the Sumerians introduced a type of wall with pillars outcropping at intervals. - This again, is similar to the wall of the Kalasasayo temple in Bolivia at Tiahuanaco.


http://www.geocities.com/webatlantis/fuentemagna.htm

Posted by: Mark Oct 19 2004, 07:59 PM
Hey Darmon Ving, hope you like the new emoticons.

From reading more at the Holman link above, it reeks of deception or a hoax, but I'm no expert and I didn't examine the bones in person.

Darmon Ving
QUOTE
He shows pictures of early reed ships painted on cave walls in the Eastern Egyptian Desert. What he does not mention or consider, is that these reed ships painted on the cave walls are identical to reed ships in Bolivia


I am thoroughly convinced that there are definite connections between ancient monuments, peoples and cultures from the Americas, to Asia, Africa - basically worldwide.

The question is... what happened?

Who conquered them?

A celestial catastrophe?

Natural disasters?

The evil pahana?

The white devils?

Pale face who speaks with forked tongue?

All one has to do is study history with the slaughter of the North and South American indians, the Africans, Australian aborgines, Asia, pacific islanders and now the middle east to see how cultures are brought to an end.

(Or attempted to be brought to an end - oral traditions keep them alive)

They loot the museums, burn the libraries, and destroy knowledge available to the masses, yet keep the advanced technologies and knowledge in their inner circle of secret societies.

It's why I believe the internet was given to us by an advanced "benevolent" race, to share and store knowledge and information, worldwide in the hopes it won't be lost or suppressed again.

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 19 2004, 09:37 PM
The Fuente Magna bowl was the one I referred that was presented to our forum by Bernardo Biados, who at that time was an advisor to the Bolivian senate but has returned to private life to pursue an academic course of study. Bernardo presented many other artifacts which contained both cuneiform writing and the odd mechanical writing of the Aymara. Most of the artifacts were in remote villages in provincial museums. There were two international internet conferences on both the Fuente Magna bowl and the Pokotia statue along with numerous other precolonial artifacts. In addition the anthropologist whom Bernardo accompanied claimed to have found basalt projectile points 40,000 years old. The French and other Europeans had not problem with the material but the U.S. anthropology community with a few exceptions refuses to grant credence to anyone outside "The Club" of U.S. good old boys. One of Gene Savoy's expedition members sat in on the conference which was held shortly after Savoy's last expedition to the Urucabamba Chachapoyas region which found more Phoenician stone inscriptions. The Mediterranean and Old European presence is found throughout South America. Caral was the first great breakthrough but the dam will soon burst if not for a major political distraction stemming from the U.S.

The Incas like the Aztecs were the last icing on the cake and the cake layers go back tens of thousands if not millions of years. I also have personal testimony from a former U.S.Air Force Reconnaissance photographer of the existence of many high tech ruins in South America particularly around Nazca, the intense interest of Air Force in them and their organized efforts to classify the information. No matter where you are, there are probably traces of that civilization literally right below your feet. miner.gif

Posted by: DarmonVing Oct 19 2004, 09:43 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Oct 19 2004, 10:59 PM)
I am thoroughly convinced that there are definite connections between ancient monuments, peoples and cultures from the Americas, to Asia, Africa - basically worldwide.

The question is... what happened?

Who conquered them?

A celestial catastrophe?

Natural disasters?

The evil pahana?

The white devils?

Pale face who speaks with forked tongue?


It was a combination of things. There were catastrophies and other problems that brought certain cultures to the Americas as well as a new blood thirsty predatorial race that basically is doing the same thing now as it did back then. alien1.gif

The long heads seemed to have traveled a long and winding road all the way from who knows where to Egypt, Asia, South America and finally to somewhere around America. Since I have become aware of the long heads, I have started to notice the size of people's heads and I've noticed a few that are somewhat unusually proportioned but not as long as the elongated skulls. There could still be a few of them around, and I hope that there are, but most likely they have interbred to the extent that they no longer have the same brain capacity but still have one larger than ours.

user posted image


Posted by: Seralia Oct 20 2004, 10:25 AM
QUOTE (DarmonVing @ Oct 19 2004, 07:32 PM)
Seralia has done some good tracking of the long heads and I might be right that the Aymara have some connection with the Amarna dynasty since Seralia did track them long heads to Central Asia.  rolleyes.gif Nice job Seralia.

Thanx DV. waving.gif

For intelligent people, they're sure easy to find. rolleyes.gif I found another trace of their existence on, would you believe? ... None other than a place called Shemya Island. bustingupNEW3.gif

This is where it is.

QUOTE
Shemya is an island in the western Aleutian Islands.  There have been soldiers stationed there since WWII when the Japanese invaded the Aleutian Chain.   Shemya was one of the staging points for counter attacks and invasions of other Japanese held islands.  Once the military arrived there, we never left.


http://my.hsonline.net/~resmith/shemya_island.htm

And this is what was found there.

QUOTE
Accidental discoverys on the Aleutian island Shemya revealed huge 22 inch trepanned skulls and bodies(WWII era?). Large or elongated skulls like those found in Peru's Ica and Gold museums are sometimes considered to be the result of binding the head starting at a young age, while others argue that the skull would not increase in size. Large and unusual skulls and bones have been reportedly found in many places in North america and Mexico.


http://infinityanalog.com/knightsoftheconspiracy/austronaught.htm

QUOTE
If these elongated skulls were caused by skull binding then there should be evidence of trephination.  Those skulls look pretty solid to me.


I knew that I was missing something. Of course there would be a build up in cranial pressure that would have to be relieved in some way due to the binding process and the 22 inch skulls on Shemya Island were supposedly trepanned. It would be interesting to find out what their age was and whether or not they had more human-like characteristics than the Peruvian skulls because there is a possibility that the size of the brain was too large for the skull to accomodate if there wasn't a 50/50 mix. There would definitely be a problem if the Shemsu-hor interbred with the pumpkin heads. Of course even with a 50/50 mix, there could also be a problem with the build up of cranial pressure if one parent had an abnormally small skull.

Posted by: JenThom Oct 20 2004, 12:25 PM
Another explanation for the trepanned skulls on Shemya is that they were trepanned after the people had died as was mentioned by DarmonVing. scratchinghead.gif It would have taken them an extremely long time to have removed the brains through the nose.

Posted by: JenThom Oct 20 2004, 12:44 PM
I found something important!!! bouncefire.gif


QUOTE
The Ainu people in Hokkaido, northern Japan, are also supposed to have practised trepanation (Boev, 1959). Certainly Rytel (1962) mentions five Ainu skulls showing resection of the foramen magnum and of the alveolar process, and this evidence of surgical interference may indicate that other techniques, e.g., trepanation were not unknown. Turning to Africa, one finds that so far in Egypt only six trepanations have been found, although more Egyptian skulls have been examined than of any other population.


http://www.trepanationguide.com/trepanation_in_ancient_times.htm

The Amarna princesses definitely had elongated heads and if they had been bound then if the theory that trephinations(?) were performed to relieve pressure then how come ONLY SIX TREPANNED SKULLS HAVE BEEN FOUND IN EGYPT?

Of course they did remove the brains through the nose there in most cases. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: JenThom Oct 20 2004, 01:32 PM
QUOTE (DarmonVing @ Oct 19 2004, 09:43 PM)
There could still be a few of them around, and I hope that there are, but most likely they have interbred to the extent that they no longer have the same brain capacity but still have one larger than ours.


bouncefire.gif

Has anyone noticed this about Einstein?

QUOTE
Pauline Einstein's baby boy, with his "extremely large and angular" skull, went on to lay the foundation for much of modern scientific research.


http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,56501,00.html

I was wondering why he had so much hair.

user posted image

Posted by: Seralia Oct 20 2004, 02:11 PM
QUOTE (JenThom @ Oct 20 2004, 12:44 PM)
The Amarna princesses definitely had elongated heads and if they had been bound then if the theory that trephinations(?) were performed to relieve pressure then how come ONLY SIX TREPANNED SKULLS HAVE BEEN FOUND IN EGYPT?

That's an easy question to answer JenThom.

QUOTE
Interestingly, neurological and surgical progress was tied to war, because ancient Egyptians' religious beliefs forbade human dissection and disfigurement of the head and face. (The practice of trephination in ancient Egypt was exceptional and short-lived.)


http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/aneuro.htm



Posted by: Seralia Oct 20 2004, 02:54 PM
This is a good view of the interior of a normal skull that I found that clearly show the sutures as well as the overall thickness of the bone structure.

user posted image

And this is a rather good image of the back of a normal human skull.

user posted image

Posted by: Tex Arcana Oct 20 2004, 04:29 PM
Like Darmon Ving I have become sensitized to the long skulls since I found out about them a few years ago. The long narrow skull shows up in my wife and her family due I suppose to their Comanche ancestry. The Comanche are a branch of the Shoshone who split off about 500 years ago from their cousins in the Rocky Mountains and Great Basin.

Following up on Wahya's post on the Ainu and Basques I started reading sections of a German anthropology book published in 1960 which delved into the religions of the stone age that survived among the Gilyak reindeer nomads of the Siberian Taiga. I was surprised to find how much of the Caucasoid migration by sea to the Americas had been deduced prior to WWII. American anthropologist Robert B Birdwell had proposed that the diversity of the American Indians and their languages suggested an arrival tens of thousands of years ago. The skulls from the Upper Cave at Chou-k'-ou-tien he thought were an ancient combination of Mongolian and Amurian(a primitve Eastern Caucasoid). He further stated that he believed that the first arrival of humans in the Americas had been these sea going Amurians who had begun their sea migrations in Indonesia. This was considered to be shockingly radical at time when many still held to Ales Hrdlcka's dogma that man in the Americas was only 5,000 years old and Mongolian in origin. Birdwell stated that the Great Mongol Migrations had begun only around 2000 BC and had "laid a Mongolian film over the diverse peoples of the Americas giving the erroneous classification of Mongolian to all." The discovery of the Lagoa Santo skulls had further been put forth as evidence of a very early incursion by people very similar to those of Ice Age Europe.

The preliminary findings on the Kennewick skeleton suggest that Birdwell was onto something. A linguist named Nichols stated that time necessary for the diversification of the American Indian languages far exceeded the paltry 11,800 years accepted by the Clovis First faction. Further Betty Megger's discovery of cord impressed pottery similar to the Jomon patterns in South America harkened back to Birdwell's theory.

Much of the German work on the Caucasoid migrations from Southeast Asia have long been dismissed due to the unfortunate association with the Nazi Aryan supremacy propaganda. This has been a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater for it is now becoming obvious that a diaspora of these ancient sea going nomads did take place all over the world. It is interesting to note that such vestiges of earlier ways such as the bear cults found worldwide have been rigorously suppressed by religious organizations which came afterward. It is fortunate that we still had isolated pockets of these people to learn from as late as the 20th century. miner.gif

Posted by: Wahya Oct 20 2004, 08:36 PM
From my thread about Ainu/Basques -

QUOTE
Some of the most striking finds were the clearly anthropomorphic clay and stone figurines resembling pregnant females with mask-like faces and protuberant eyes; very similar to those found in many other parts of the world, especially in Europe.


This is in reference to Japan's Ainu people, who are linked linguistically to the Basques. I think it is a potent piece of evidence in itself that hints the origins of both cultures, considering the stone age 'Venus' figurines of pregnant females found in stone age europe, Malta in particular.

There was once a stone age culture that traveled the arctic circle. They were distinguished by their fine tools, made of stone, but highly refined and polished. These tools did not have the crude look of flaked tools. They were meticulously well crafted.

If you have a globe, look at it through the eyes of a northern people.

You will see the center as the north pole and ALL else flows downwards to the south. You will see how it is much easier to travel using this reference point.

This is how the Vikings saw the world. Look how far they traveled.

Why was the bear sacred? There is symbolism in the sacred.

Any large carnivore commands respect. Ancient cultures knew this.

The bear knows how to survive harsh northern climates. It knows to hibernate and it knows where to go as the seasons dictate.

The bear knows to hunt, forage, or scavenge to survive.

In the days of the mega fauna there was a bear that was so big, a modern grizzly would be relatively small compared to it.


It's good to look at skeletons and skulls for hints.

I look at the artifacts because the mainstream scientific community can disregard anomolous bones as genetic oddities. (I don't, I love this thread lol) Artifacts are not so easy to dismiss because even if a culture copies a method, tool, or weapon from another culture, that still means there was contact between them at one time.

Now added to these weird skulls, we have related sacred imagery, artifacts, and in some cases, even language.

Added together with the artifacts, the bones and skulls form compelling evidence.

Posted by: Mark Oct 20 2004, 10:06 PM
QUOTE
In the days of the mega fauna there was a bear that was so big, a modern grizzly would be relatively small compared to it.


Hey Wahya,
I saw a show on Discovery (I think) and it tried to explain why humans hadn't migrated into the Americas (by foot) until about 12,000 years ago because of a bear that stood 7 feet at the shoulder and 14 feet tall when on its hind legs. They estimated it could run approx 40 MPH and humans would have been easy prey. It went extinct about 12,000 years ago and they hypothesized that this then allowed the foot migration across the Bering Strait from Asia to N. America.

Though I believe there's ample evidence that humans (Probably Caucasion Giants) were in Americas far longer back than 12,000 years, but the bear would have made foot travel very dangerous for the little people without advanced technologies.

Posted by: Wahya Oct 20 2004, 11:21 PM
QUOTE
...the bear would have made foot travel very dangerous for the little people without advanced technologies.


I disagree.

You are right if you're talking about a small group of people traveling, but...


Let's say you and a buddy are in the Rockies and you encounter a grizzly.

Unarmed, you wouldnt have a chance trying to fight it off.

Armed with bows or spears, you'd have a better chance, but you might also be supper too.


Dig it?

Now suppose you were from a culture accustomed to hunting BIG animals like mastadons.

You'd have larger weapons and you'd know how to use 'em too. Expertly.

Plus if it was case of not only you and a friend, but also your entire tribe, a tribe experienced to hunting big animals as a way of life?

A big bear would not have the odds in it's favor.


Another facet of this is that the people we're talking about were much closer to nature than modern people. They would be more experienced with bears, even if they were smaller ones.

Which also means they'd know how to spot the signs of a bear, and how to avoid them if they needed to.

I've been close to bears before. I've had a black bear walk right up to me, give me a sniff and walk away and we got a little too close for comfort with a Kodiak in canada once. Back in Tennessee, the black bears would come up to our porch all the time.

But yeah, BIG difference between the smaller calmer black bears and the big bears like kodiaks, grizzleys and polar bears.

Imagine that huge one from the old days. Wow. omg.gif

IMO, the american animal to really beware of was the saber toothed cat.

Posted by: Mark Oct 20 2004, 11:58 PM
"CAN YOU DIG IT"
~ The Warriors

Yes, I can. smileNew4.gif

Do you think the extinction of the giant bear, wooly mammoths and saber toothed cats were caused by the hunters and/or a radical change in weather? (Ice age)

Posted by: Wahya Oct 21 2004, 12:21 AM
I think a climate change and the arrival of hunter might have had somethingt o do with it, but I think the main cause of extinctions was the introductions of new diseases the animals had no resistance to.

Which is exactly what would happen if people from different parts of the world migrated here.

Or different animals too...

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