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Posted by: Mark Nov 27 2003, 12:23 AM
The 35th President Of The United States
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Born: May 29, 1917 Assassinated Nov. 22, 1963

Was George Bush involved in JFK assassination?

The Men Who Killed JFK:

Nelson Rockefeller
Allen Dulles
Lyndon Johnson of Texas
George Bush
J. Edgar Hoover

Rodney Stich's book "Defrauding America" tells of a "deep-cover CIA officer"assigned to a counter-intelligence unit, code-named Pegasus. This unit "had tape-recordings of plans to assassinate Kennedy" from a tap on the phone of J. Edgar Hoover. The people on the tapes were "[Nelson] Rockefeller, Allen Dulles, [Lyndon] Johnson of Texas, George Bush and J. Edgar Hoover."

Could George Bush be involved in the JFK assassination?

In 1963, Bush was living in Houston, busily carrying out his duties as President of the Zapata Offshore oil company. He denied the existence of a note sent by the FBI's J. Edgar Hoover to "Mr. George Bush of the CIA." When news of the note surfaced, the CIA first said they never commented on employment questions, but later relented said yes, a "George Bush" was mentioned in the note, but that it was "another" George Bush, not the man who took office in the White House in 1988.

Some intrepid reporters tracked down the "other" George Bush and discovered that he was just a lowly clerk who had shuffled papers for the CIA for about six months. He never received any interagency messages from anybody at the FBI, let alone the Queen Mary.

It is also worth noting that a CIA code word for Bay of Pigs was Operation Zapata, and that two of the support vessels were named Barbara and Houston.

Many say that George Bush was high up on the CIA ladder at the time, running proprietorial vehicles and placed in a position of command, responsible formany of the Cubans recruited into "service" at the time. All through the Iran-Contra affair, Felix Rodriguez, the man who captured and had Che Guevara killed for the CIA, always seemed to call Bush's office first.

From The Realist (Summer, 1991):

"Bush was working with the now-famous CIA agent, Felix Rodriguez, recruiting right-wing Cuban exiles for the invasion of Cuba. It was Bush's CIA job to organize the Cuban community in Miami for the invasion.... A newly discovered FBI document reveals that George Bush was directly involved in the 1963 murder of President John Kennedy. The document places marksmen by the CIA. Bush at that time lived in Texas. Hopping from Houston to Miami weekly, Bush spent 1960 and '61 recruiting Cubans in Miami for the invasion....

"George Bush claims he never worked for the CIA until he was appointed Director by former Warren Commission director and then president Jerry Ford in 1976. Logic suggests that is highly unlikely. Of course, Bush has a company duty to deny being in the CIA. The CIA is a secret organization. No one ever admits to being a member. The truth is that Bush has been a top CIA official since before the 1961 invasion of Cuba, working with Felix Rodriguez. Bush may deny his actual role in the CIA in 1959, but there are records in the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba that expose Bush's role..."

On the Watergate tapes, June 23, 1972, referred to in the media as the 'smoking gun' conversation, Nixon and his Chief of Staff, H.R. Haldeman, were discussing how to stop the FBI investigation into the CIA Watergate burglary. They were worried that the investigation would expose their connection to 'the Bay of Pigs thing.' Haldeman, in his book "The Ends of Power", reveals that Nixon always used code words when talking about the 1963 murder of JFK. Haldeman said Nixon would always refer to the assassination as 'the Bay of Pigs'.

On that transcript we find Nixon discussing the role of George Bush's partner, Robert Mosbacher, as one of the Texas fundraisers for Nixon. On the tapes Nixon keeps referring to the 'Cubans' and the 'Texans.' The 'Texans' were Bush, Mosbacher and Baker. This is another direct link between Bush and evidence linking Nixon and Bush to the Kennedy assassination.



Image below is of the driver "Greer" turning around after JFK was shot in the neck.
user posted image

View an animated gif below

The second most important footage of the assassination of John F. Kennedy has been made available to the public exactly 37 years after his presidency abruptly ended in a hail of bullets.

Watch the 24½-second film recorded Nov. 22, 1963, by Orville Nix Sr. at link below.

Related Information:

JFK´s father was initiated into Free Masonry in Scotland and followed the Scottish Rites. I had acquired a book outlining the entire Scottish Rites including the prescribed method of death for individual Freemasons who betray the Brotherhood. The prescribed method for someone who holds the rank of "Master of the Arches" or "Royal Arches" was to have the top/and or back of their head removed.

How would arches fit in? Think about it. On the Zapruder film you can see Kennedy look at that umbrella opening. Think of the Free Mason tarot card which is the Three of Pentacles. It has three people standing under the arch. You can clearly see Kennedy stiffen up as if he´d seen a ghost. He then looks directly ahead at the underpass. The underpass is covered by a bridge which is another form of an arch that people can walk, drive or go under. It is then he starts looking around. It´s very subtle, but you can see it. They got the message across loud and clear to him and he knew he was about to be hit.

Why did he betray these Nazis/lizards? Because he was about to form a lasting peace with Castro and Cuba. There would be no more war with that part of the world. These lizards/Spartans do not want that since they are in business and make money when there IS war.

I don´t know what Kennedy was thinking in doing this. Perhaps he had had a change of heart or perhaps he realized that he and they had enough money to last them the rest of their lives so why kill and manipulate innocent people. I really don´t know. All I know or think I know is that he was actually thinking about the people for a change and not just the lizard regime.

Author Unknown

Posted by: JEP Aug 16 2004, 09:26 AM
JFK Hit---the real shooters location

. It wasn't until 1984, in the TV production "On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald," that Vincent Bugliosi simply asked William Newman to specify the bit about the "garden directly behind me" that was in his affidavit of November 22, 1963. Newman specified the area to the east of the pergola; between the Depository and Newman's position on November 22 is a landscaped walkway.

In his affidavit, Newman thought the shots came from the direction of the Depository, but was unsure as to the shooter's elevation and so looked no higher than the "garden." The Moorman photo shows the fence on the Grassy Knoll is more to Newman's right than rear, whereas the "garden" — and Depository — are more rearward. To millions of viewers of the Zapruder film, it does initially appear that, in Newman's words, a shot "hit the President in the side of the temple." The autopsy finding and discovery of the Z312-313 forward movement reveal the explosion of the upper right skull was actually an exit wound.

Posted by: JEP Aug 16 2004, 09:28 AM

Abraham Zapruder owned a dress manufacturing company called Jennifer Juniors, located at 5010 Elm street in Dallas, off Dealey Plaza and across the street from the School Book Depository (and for that matter not far from Jack Ruby¹s Carousel nightclub). Zapruder had decided not to bring his new camera, a Bell and Howell 8mm with a telephoto lens, to work that day because the morning had been overcast and rainy. But later, the sun broke out, and around 10 am, his secretary, Lillian Rogers, urged him to make the 7-minute trip back home to fetch the camera. When he returned, at 12:25 pm, Dealey Plaza was already thick with people.

. Livingstone also chronicles in exhausting if sometimes confusing detail what happened to the film the day it was shot, the differences between the multitude of Zapruder films in circulation over the years, and also the background of Zapruder¹s business partner, Ervin Schwarzt, who he claims was a friend of some Dallas mafia figures and a frequenter of Jack Ruby¹s Carousel Club. Schwartz and Ruby had the same rabbi.

Why did Zapruder keep filming?

The man is standing there looking quite obviously at another man being shot. All around him people are hitting the ground. Bullets may very well be whizzing over his head or in front of his face. And yet the man kept going. We are all, of course, quite grateful that he did. But where did he find the strength to keep the camera rolling, while loud reports sounded and echoed around him, and as bluish acrid rifle smoke drifted through the air.

Was this modest dress manufacturer so stolid that nothing would make him take his eyes off history? Was the crossfire that killed Kennedy so fast that he didn¹t even have time to react? Or was Zapruder an agent of some higher powers, egged on to go home and get his camera, positioned by agents who were within his employ, manipulated by people in league with mobsters or oil millionaires or government agents?

frames, numbers 314 and 315, were transposed, for which then FBI director J Edgar Hoover apologized. While he was apologizing, he was also writing a memo to the Commission requesting that a copy of the Zapruder film be loaned to the CIA "for training purposes."

The next morning, Stolley arrived at Zapruder¹s office, and found Secret Service agents there already. When Zapruder arrived, he showed the film to the group, and throughout the day, screened the film for other reporters who showed up. But by noon, he had sold the film to Life, handing over the original and his own dupe. Stolley sent the film to Life¹ s Chicago printing plant, where black and white reproductions were made. Zapruder was paid $50, 000 at the time for the physical film (ultimately, he was paid $150, 000 for the reproduction rights of his home movie, the print itself staying in the possession of Life).

Meanwhile, late in the afternoon, the FBI sent its print to Washington, where three second generation prints were made.

On Sunday, not long after Lee Harvey Oswald was shot, Life magazine¹s publisher, C D Jackson, finally saw the film he had paid so much for. Reputedly he was so shaken by the experience that he decided never to release it for public viewing (Stolley soon after returned to Zapruder and bought all rights to the film).

Posted by: Mark Aug 16 2004, 11:03 AM
Why did Zapruder keep filming?

The man is standing there looking quite obviously at another man being shot. All around him people are hitting the ground. Bullets may very well be whizzing over his head or in front of his face. And yet the man kept going. We are all, of course, quite grateful that he did. But where did he find the strength to keep the camera rolling, while loud reports sounded and echoed around him, and as bluish acrid rifle smoke drifted through the air.

Good question.

He sure kept his composure well and continued filming.

Anyone who has watched home movies that people have taken during an exciting or traumatic event has noticed that the camera does not stay on the target.

How this man continued to get it all on tape is simply amazing.

We are all, of course, quite grateful that he did.

Yes we are, because the video blows away the Warren Commissions offical conclusion that there was ONE magic bullet that struck the president at least 3 times.

"The American people don't read."
- Allen Dulles speaking about how the American people would respond to the inconsistencies in the Warren Commission report.

See America, THEY rely on you being too distracted... or too lazy to read.

I hope that more and more America citizens will find the time to read and learn about what's really going on with our tyrannical US govt.

The lies used to wage wars for profits, the assault on the environment and the ecosystems, the dumping of raw sewage into the oceans, deforestation, coral reefs dying, dead zones off the coast of Oregon and the Gulf of Mexico, and THEY want to drill for more oil in pristine lands and fragile ecosystems.

Let's not forget... the suppression of clean and renewable and FREE energy!

The dead scientists, the new virus's - West Nile Virus, Corona Virus, Norwalk Virus - the harmful vaccines, all of the poisons we are subjected to daily - flouride, teflon, chemtrails, toxic chemicals, nuclear and toxic waste and mercury in the waters and the fish.

Gulf War I and II vets infected with DU (Depleted Uranium) munitions and their babies born with birth defects.

"When our soldiers risked their lives in the Gulf, they never imagined that their children might suffer the consequences--or that their country would turn its back on them."

Prozac, birth control and other drugs as well as pesticides, toxins, pollution and other poisons flowing into our waters.

We have Mad Cow disease, Avian bird flu, CJD (deer disease) and in the past 30 years a whole slew of new diseases have popped up to infect us.

This is NO coinicidence!

It is destruction by design!

Poisoned by design!

As long as we are ruled by evil beings with no compassion for human or animal life, who consider themselves gods or "like gods", things will only get worse.

Much worse.

These beings come on your television screens and tell us we need more war for peace.

G.W. Bush's latest speech as he announced pulling out 70,000 troops from Asia and Europe so they can be used [as mercenaries] in more staged wars which will make THEM more profits is a good recent example of a liar and deceiver in action.

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 16 2004, 11:32 AM
Up until a year or two ago, no one could have convinced me that J. Edgar Hoover had anything to do with the murder of JFK. No one! That's all changed now, but I wonder if he only knew about it, but was absolutely powerless to stop it. There was the gov't "mafia" boys I would imagine that kept him in line, for he knew they were capable of killing anyone who got in the way of TPTB, no one being safe, not even Hoover.

Why "they" tried to smear Hoover's name by saying he was a homosexual and transdresser, I guess we'll never know. That part I still won't believe because I think "they" got him, too.


Posted by: JEP Aug 16 2004, 07:06 PM
Hey Pupp,

What is the trick for listing photos on the Forum discussion?


Posted by: Mark Aug 17 2004, 05:18 AM
Hey JP, you can do it manually or use the IMG button above.

The images must be online and not be restricted to linking here. Some websites do not want you to suck up their bandwith by linking to their images.

Manual way:

(Note: BJ, you can post images the manual way)

(Do not use asterisks*)

Put [IMG*]before URL and [/IMG*] after the URL to close the tags.

Or use IMG tag button above and enter the URL of where the image is uploaded.

(Do not use asterisks*)

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 17 2004, 05:50 AM
(Without asterisks*)

EX: [IMG*][/IMG*]

Confusing! There are asterisks* in this! Do you write [IMG*] or [IMG]


Posted by: Mark Aug 17 2004, 06:08 AM
I tried to make it simple.

DO NOT USE ASTERISKS if you want the image to show up.

If you use asterisks, the image WILL NOT show up.

I used the asterisks to demonstrate how the tags will look.

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 17 2004, 06:18 AM
Well, what do I know about "tags"? There is nothing in the help section to give us "dummies" a clue! It really doesn't matter because I probably can't use them anyway. For those who understand how these things work, your example was simple enough, but illogical for those of us who don't!


Posted by: Mark Aug 17 2004, 06:22 AM
BJ, if you wish to add an image to a post, you can simply type in an [IMG] tag at the beginning of the URL of the image you wish to display and then put an [/IMG*] tag (Without the asterisk) at the END of the URL.

Hope this helps.



Posted by: BJ1 Aug 17 2004, 06:47 AM
I'm afraid to ask you this, but here goes. I'm out on the web. I see a pic that would go nicely with a post. Now, seeing all I know how to do is "copy" and "paste", step by step, how do I capture the pic then transfer to the post?

Pretend there is a pic of a monkey. What's the first thing you do? What's the second thing you do?


Posted by: Mark Aug 17 2004, 07:00 AM
When I see an image I'd like to save or add to a post...


RIGHT CLICK on the image and save it to my hard drive.

Then I upload it to the web storage space of one of my websites.

I've been told that is a good online storage space to save images to and from which you can use to display them on forums.

By trying to remote link to other websites images, some webmasters become very angry.

I will not give instructions on how to do that.

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 17 2004, 07:07 AM
Got it.

Posted by: JEP Aug 17 2004, 07:41 AM
Hi Pupp,

Thanks for the insights on photo commands. Looks like a modified html command. Looks like the system autodetects html URL's, wonder why it does not do the same for photo's?

Lets see if it works. Opps, looks like it does not like the .art extension names, only .gif seems to be ok. Will attempt alternative below.

Anyway, Speaking on the Zapruder Film and its revelations:

One of the things one notices on the Zapruder Film is there appears to be some intense generation loss, perhaps it was intentional. On the cleaner films the 313 frame shows up clear lines of blood spatter and some even show thin and thick like something was spinning.

Example of cleaner frames:

user posted image

The big key from watching Zapruder is to take note of the center projection or locus of these lines. It tends to point to the side of the head and if one slows down Zapruder and goes frame by frame one can see a trench form from the right temple to the forehead.

Which points to situations like the Newman's heard and then dove to the ground when the hypersonic bullet went right beside them. One of the Life photographers seems to have capured this even and even put a line on this photo to show the bullet pathway from the little garden zone between the Pargola and TSBD.

user posted image

It is this set of data that tells Oswald did not do it and even the Life people knew where the bullet came from, then went and got all the rights to the Zapruder Film and left it locked away until the times of the trial in New Orleans.

Now, the curious can begin to sift through the truth and see the finer details that show up in the orginal.


Posted by: JEP Aug 17 2004, 07:56 AM
Hi Pupp,

Another tell tale photo from that ill fated day is this one, which shows a great deal. It even shows the little garden area between the Pergola and the TSBD. Recall when the shooting started someone ran down and told a cop they were shooting at the president from behind the hedges.

One can see the landscaped garden zone in this photo in living color and within a few seconds of the head shot.

In all the JFK reconstructions and reenactments, this little duck blind zone is missing. And it is the location of the head shot. This shot matches up to a hole in the crowd along the sidewalk that day.

user posted image

Another thing all the JFK recreations miss, is that if the bullets came from the TSBD--then they had to terminate inside the limo. No other bullets were found except the one from Connelly's leg. Perhaps some fragments from the windshield hit.


Posted by: JEP Aug 17 2004, 08:13 AM

The last photo above is the smoking gun photo, as it show several essential points in the evidence trail.

Which ones do you readily note? Hint, the first shot happened perhaps 4 sec. before this photo was snapped. First shot was from Dal-Tex and was deflected, second one hit JFK in the back, third was from TSBD and hit JC, and fouth was from Pergola Garden just after this photo.

Posted by: JEP Aug 17 2004, 11:10 AM
Another view of the Pergola's Garden, which was a border between the dirt/gravel road and the TSBD.

The hedges and tall grass it contained made a good hiding zone for the shooter under the trees and the rear margin border.

user posted image

Posted by: JEP Aug 17 2004, 11:27 AM
This is an interesting first interview with Zapruder where he tells of seeing the presidents right-front part of his head getting hit and shows the area with a gesture or his right hand. His 8mm film totally supports that observation. Bullet enters near ear and exits the forhead. The film, frame by frame after z313, literally shows a trench from these two points.

user posted image

Posted by: Mark Aug 17 2004, 12:12 PM

Here are the supported images for viewing in the forum.

gif, jpeg, jpg, png

I just added .art so your images should show now.

Posted by: JEP Aug 17 2004, 04:23 PM
Hi Pupp,

Excellent on the new .art support. It works. Tnx


Posted by: Mark Aug 17 2004, 06:16 PM
You're welcome JEP!

I edited your posts for you and added the IMG tags so that the images would show up.

I added [IMG] before the images and [/IMG*] (without the asterisk) after the images.

Posted by: JEP Aug 18 2004, 06:58 AM

I like the latest "shout" from Plato, deja vu there. I noticed the edit notice, and figured you helped there somewhere with IMG commands.

The popular Warren explanation of the JFK assasination is hard to believe when one considers all the points that just don't line up. For instance, if Oswald was the shooter, then the prime opportunity to not miss was JFK coming down Main St. and turning right under the window of TSBD. Instead the alledged first shot happens through trees, which even Oswald would know as a problem. The first shot lines up with the Dal-Tex window.

Another item, is that Main St. was loaded with people down each side and all in total view of the TSBD window. Which would mean that literally 100's should have spotted several loud noises coming from that window some 75 ft over the street. With all the cameras down there, there should have been a dozen photos of the event.

So, the more realistic explanation is the shot opportunity came when the pres limo came within range of the real shooters. The real shooters were conceiled in the bushes of the Pergola's garden, Dal-Tex, and TSBD to make one shot from there.

Why was it conceiled and how? Just look at the number of Israel and Jewish persons on the Warren Commission, persons like Arlen Spector. Each one had a direct conflict of interest that was to not associate the real issues of JFK's offing stemmed from Israel's interests.

Jewish Rubenstein was one of the lead conspirators, with long standing connections to the Mafia, gun running, drug running, and support of Israel and the Cuban invasion. The Rubenstein connected plot to kill JFK gained consensus with not only LBJ, but a large number of high Govt officials that wanted JFK out of the picture. It all started with a plan from Oak Ridge and a close friend of Rubenstein's from Chicago.

JFK was out to establish peace in the world, ruin the Mafia, shred the crooked CIA Mafia associations, and put LBJ in jail. The worild would be a much different and peaceful place had JFK not been killed by these thugs.

Today, this same bunch of complicit syndicate crooks run the US using techniques of fear, deceit, and treachery.

The real secret of the JFK hit was there was a Coup and it did succeed in the take over and control of the US. It is a prime example of treason, one so obvious that it is hard to miss the truth now.


Posted by: Mark Aug 18 2004, 08:08 AM
"If our nation is ever taken over, it will be taken over from within."
~ James Madison


Ask yourself...

Who controls the federal reserve?

Who controls the media?

Who controls the US govt.

Who controls religions.

The same bloodlines you will find throughout these positions of power.

Lies, treachery and deceit run amok in America and throughout the "supposed" free world and the third world (slave labor) nations.

Posted by: JEP Aug 19 2004, 08:26 AM
Hi Pupp,

Questions there that I know you well know the answer to. The JFK thread makes a good one to make some points on what JFK was attempting to do before he was termiated. Seems the corrupt powers controlling the US feared the Kennedy dynasty coming into power. For the sake of completeness of a thread the following comments:

Pupp asks"
"Ask yourself..."

"Who controls the federal reserve?"
JEP replies:
A lot of Jewish surnamed New York big bankers and their pal Rockefeller bank. Rockefeller started the Fed Res idea from Jekyll Island, Ga.
JFK went after this banking control power over the US with his version of a silver certificate, but called a US Note. See one here:

"Who controls the media?"
All the major news sources in the US are controlled by Jewish interests or writers behind the face men on the nightly news. Even the bubba that started the news from Dallas on JFK is part of the face men for the Jewish controlled press of the US.

This corrupted influence is why things like the JFK massive conspiracy plot were not exposed and even the crooked Warren Commission was stacked with a large number of Jewish/Israel conflicted persons that tried very hard to avoid the full truth.

What they pulled off is called a Coup of US power, as they installed the very Pro-Israel Johnson. Johnson and the corrupte Texas Air America boys supplied the drug payola from Vietman to pay the shooters. LBJ shot his way into the White House.

"Who controls the US govt."
The US Govt is highly dominated by Jewish players behind the scenes. Just look at the Bush Neo-Con's, all of them are pro-Israel and drag the US into these Holy Wars over bogus ideals in religion that are fradulent by design and origin.

The US Govt merged with Mafia interests in 1947, with the inception of the CIA and the pay off toward Corsicans to change things in France. This is a large part of why JFK wanted to shred the crooks of the CIA.

In the case of Cuba this took on new highs in deceit, these crooks of the Mafia were trying to get back their Cuban interests and using drugs to fund the process, just like an Oliver North Iran Contra plan. JFK made promisses to Russia for hands off on Cuba and so he had to come after these Texas, New Orleans, and Fla interests pushing this convertly via CIA connections.

It is this same bunch of complicit thugs that now run the US, persons like Halliburtons Cheney that used Air America connections extensively. Crooks like Rumsfeld and his trumped up religion falsehoods, and his little lap dog Bush too. And Daddy Bush, who was right in the middle of the drug running and gun running for Cuba. The entire lot needs to be in prison, and not in the White House.

"Who controls religions."
The real problem lies here. Nobody controls religion. It is free for all of false ideals and total insanity at times.

Religion is out of control in the US and most places. Religion is the excuse for why Holy Wars that devastated Europe are now drug into the US arena via these Israel interests.

Religion needs to be kicked out of US policy and many religions need to be charged with fradulent process and misrepresentation.


Posted by: JEP Aug 19 2004, 08:32 AM
Click on link for full sized image.

user posted image

user posted image

Note: I resized the image to fit in the forum better.

Posted by: Mark Aug 19 2004, 09:15 AM
I edited your link for the note in your post on the previous page but kept it as a link as it makes the page too wide for 800x600 format.

I see you got the image to work above.

Thanks for answering the questions I posed.

You are correct on all except I disagree with the religion answer...

I believe the bloodlines (some claiming to be jews) have controlled religions for centuries. (at least for 5765 years)

The religious leaders all stand out like a sore thumb to me.

They also have controlled the monetary/usury system for centuries too.

Is it any wonder why someone like me would be surrounded for decades by those who claim to be Jews (and Mormons too) to keep tabs on me, distract me, occupy my time, introducing me to addictions, and trying to keep me from learning the truth.

THEY know I am not afraid of them and cannot be intimidated, threatened or bribed into silence.

It seems that you also have this most excellant quality.

I just wish all Americans KNEW who was behind our oppression.

Posted by: Mark Aug 19 2004, 09:53 AM
John F. Kennedy vs The Federal Reserve

On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest.

With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business. The Christian Law Fellowship has exhaustively researched this matter through the Federal Register and Library of Congress. We can now safely conclude that this Executive Order has never been repealed, amended, or superceded by any subsequent Executive Order. In simple terms, it is still valid.

When President John Fitzgerald Kennedy - the author of Profiles in Courage -signed this Order, it returned to the federal government, specifically the Treasury Department, the Constitutional power to create and issue currency -money - without going through the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank. President Kennedy's Executive Order 11110 [the full text is displayed further below] gave the Treasury Department the explicit authority: "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." This means that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation based on the silver bullion physically held there. As a result, more than $4 billion in United States Notes were brought into circulation in $2 and $5 denominations. $10 and $20 United States Notes were never circulated but were being printed by the Treasury Department when Kennedy was assassinated. It appears obvious that President Kennedy knew the Federal Reserve Notes being used as the purported legal currency were contrary to the Constitution of the United States of America.

"United States Notes" were issued as an interest-free and debt-free currency backed by silver reserves in the U.S. Treasury. We compared a "Federal Reserve Note" issued from the private central bank of the United States (the Federal Reserve Bank a/k/a Federal Reserve System), with a "United States Note" from the U.S. Treasury issued by President Kennedy's Executive Order. They almost look alike, except one says "Federal Reserve Note" on the top while the other says "United States Note". Also, the Federal Reserve Note has a green seal and serial number while the United States Note has a red seal and serial number.

President Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963 and the United States Notes he had issued were immediately taken out of circulation. Federal Reserve Notes continued to serve as the legal currency of the nation. According to the United States Secret Service, 99% of all U.S. paper "currency" circulating in 1999 are Federal Reserve Notes.

Kennedy knew that if the silver-backed United States Notes were widely circulated, they would have eliminated the demand for Federal Reserve Notes. This is a very simple matter of economics. The USN was backed by silver and the FRN was not backed by anything of intrinsic value. Executive Order 11110 should have prevented the national debt from reaching its current level (virtually all of the nearly $9 trillion in federal debt has been created since 1963) if LBJ or any subsequent President were to enforce it. It would have almost immediately given the U.S. Government the ability to repay its debt without going to the private Federal Reserve Banks and being charged interest to create new "money". Executive Order 11110 gave the U.S.A. the ability to, once again, create its own money backed by silver and realm value worth something.

Again, according to our own research, just five months after Kennedy was assassinated, no more of the Series 1958 "Silver Certificates" were issued either, and they were subsequently removed from circulation. Perhaps the assassination of JFK was a warning to all future presidents not to interfere with the private Federal Reserve's control over the creation of money. It seems very apparent that President Kennedy challenged the "powers that exist behind U.S. and world finance". With true patriotic courage, JFK boldly faced the two most successful vehicles that have ever been used to drive up debt:

1) war (Viet Nam); and,

2) the creation of money by a privately owned central bank. His efforts to have all U.S. troops out of Vietnam by 1965 combined with Executive Order 11110 would have destroyed the profits and control of the private Federal Reserve Bank.


Executive Order 11110

AMENDMENT OF EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 10289 AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE PERFORMANCE OF CERTAIN FUNCTIONS AFFECTING THE DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY. By virtue of the authority vested in me by section 301 of title 3 of the United States Code, it is ordered as follows:

SECTION 1. Executive Order No. 10289 of September 19, 1951, as amended, is hereby further amended - (a) By adding at the end of paragraph 1 thereof the following subparagraph (j): "(j) The authority vested in the President by paragraph (b) of section 43 of the Act of May 12, 1933, as amended (31 U.S.C. 821 (b)), to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denominations of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption," and (b) By revoking subparagraphs (b) and © of paragraph 2 thereof. SECTION 2. The amendment made by this Order shall not affect any act done, or any right accruing or accrued or any suit or proceeding had or commenced in any civil or criminal cause prior to the date of this Order but all such liabilities shall continue and may be enforced as if said amendments had not been made.



Once again, Executive Order 11110 is still valid. According to Title 3, United States Code, Section 301 dated January 26, 1998:

Executive Order (EO) 10289 dated Sept. 17, 1951, 16 F.R. 9499, was as amended by:

EO 10583, dated December 18, 1954, 19 F.R. 8725;

EO 10882 dated July 18, 1960, 25 F.R. 6869;

EO 11110 dated June 4, 1963, 28 F.R. 5605;

EO 11825 dated December 31, 1974, 40 F.R. 1003;

EO 12608 dated September 9, 1987, 52 F.R. 34617

The 1974 and 1987 amendments, added after Kennedy's 1963 amendment, did not change or alter any part of Kennedy's EO 11110. A search of Clinton's 1998 and 1999 EO's and Presidential Directives has also shown no reference to any alterations, suspensions, or changes to EO 11110.

The Federal Reserve Bank, a.k.a Federal Reserve System, is a Private Corporation. Black's Law Dictionary defines the "Federal Reserve System" as: "Network of twelve central banks to which most national banks belong and to which state chartered banks may belong. Membership rules require investment of stock and minimum reserves." Privately-owned banks own the stock of the FED. This was explained in more detail in the case of Lewis v. United States, Federal Reporter, 2nd Series, Vol. 680, Pages 1239, 1241 (1982), where the court said: "Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region. The stock-holding commercial banks elect two thirds of each Bank's nine member board of directors".

The Federal Reserve Banks are locally controlled by their member banks. Once again, according to Black's Law Dictionary, we find that these privately owned banks actually issue money:

"Federal Reserve Act. Law which created Federal Reserve banks which act as agents in maintaining money reserves, issuing money in the form of bank notes, lending money to banks, and supervising banks. Administered by Federal Reserve Board (q.v.)".

The privately owned Federal Reserve (FED) banks actually issue (create) the "money" we use. In 1964, the House Committee on Banking and Currency, Subcommittee on Domestic Finance, at the second session of the 88th Congress, put out a study entitled Money Facts which contains a good description of what the FED is: "The Federal Reserve is a total money-making machine. It can issue money or checks. And it never has a problem of making its checks good because it can obtain the $5 and $10 bills necessary to cover its check simply by asking the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving to print them".

Any one person or any closely knit group who has a lot of money has a lot of power. Now imagine a group of people who have the power to create money. Imagine the power these people would have. This is exactly what the privately owned FED is!

No man did more to expose the power of the FED than Louis T. McFadden, who was the Chairman of the House Banking Committee back in the 1930s. In describing the FED, he remarked in the Congressional Record, House pages 1295 and 1296 on June 10, 1932:

"Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal reserve banks. The Federal Reserve Board, a Government Board, has cheated the Government of the United States and he people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt. The depredations and the iniquities of the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal reserve banks acting together have cost this country enough money to pay the national debt several times over. This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the people of the United States; has bankrupted itself, and has practically bankrupted our Government. It has done this through the maladministration of that law by which the Federal Reserve Board, and through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it".

Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are United States Government institutions. They are not Government institutions, departments, or agencies. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers. Those 12 private credit monopolies were deceitfully placed upon this country by bankers who came here from Europe and who repaid us for our hospitality by undermining our American institutions.

The FED basically works like this: The government granted its power to create money to the FED banks. They create money, then loan it back to the government charging interest. The government levies income taxes to pay the interest on the debt. On this point, it's interesting to note that the Federal Reserve Act and the sixteenth amendment, which gave congress the power to collect income taxes, were both passed in 1913. The incredible power of the FED over the economy is universally admitted. Some people, especially in the banking and academic communities, even support it. On the other hand, there are those, such as President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, that have spoken out against it. His efforts were spoken about in Jim Marrs' 1990 book Crossfire:"

Another overlooked aspect of Kennedy's attempt to reform American society involves money. Kennedy apparently reasoned that by returning to the constitution, which states that only Congress shall coin and regulate money, the soaring national debt could be reduced by not paying interest to the bankers of the Federal Reserve System, who print paper money then loan it to the government at interest. He moved in this area on June 4, 1963, by signing Executive Order 11110 which called for the issuance of $4,292,893,815 in United States Notes through the U.S. Treasury rather than the traditional Federal Reserve System. That same day, Kennedy signed a bill changing the backing of one and two dollar bills from silver to gold, adding strength to the weakened U.S. currency.

Kennedy's comptroller of the currency, James J. Saxon, had been at odds with the powerful Federal Reserve Board for some time, encouraging broader investment and lending powers for banks that were not part of the Federal Reserve system. Saxon also had decided that non-Reserve banks could underwrite state and local general obligation bonds, again weakening the dominant Federal Reserve banks".

In a comment made to a Columbia University class on Nov. 12, 1963,

Ten days before his assassination, President John Fitzgerald Kennedy allegedly said:

"The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom and before I leave office, I must inform the citizen of this plight."

In this matter, John Fitzgerald Kennedy appears to be the subject of his own book... a true Profile of Courage.

This research report was compiled for Lawgiver. Org. by Anthony Wayne


What is the Federal Reserve Bank?

What is the Federal Reserve Bank (FED) and why do we have it?

by Greg Hobbs November 1, 1999

The FED is a central bank. Central banks are supposed to implement a country's fiscal policies. They monitor commercial banks to ensure that they maintain sufficient assets, like cash, so as to remain solvent and stable. Central banks also do business, such as currency exchanges and gold transactions, with other central banks. In theory, a central bank should be good for a country, and they might be if it wasn't for the fact that they are not owned or controlled by the government of the country they are serving. Private central banks, including our FED, operate not in the interest of the public good but for profit.

There have been three central banks in our nation's history. The first two, while deceptive and fraudulent, pale in comparison to the scope and size of the fraud being perpetrated by our current FED. What they all have in common is an insidious practice known as "fractional banking."

Fractional banking or fractional lending is the ability to create money from nothing, lend it to the government or someone else and charge interest to boot. The practice evolved before banks existed. Goldsmiths rented out space in their vaults to individuals and merchants for storage of their gold or silver. The goldsmiths gave these "depositors" a certificate that showed the amount of gold stored. These certificates were then used to conduct business.

In time the goldsmiths noticed that the gold in their vaults was rarely withdrawn. Small amounts would move in and out but the large majority never moved. Sensing a profit opportunity, the goldsmiths issued double receipts for the gold, in effect creating money (certificates) from nothing and then lending those certificates (creating debt) to depositors and charging them interest as well.

Since the certificates represented more gold than actually existed, the certificates were "fractionally" backed by gold. Eventually some of these vault operations were transformed into banks and the practice of fractional banking continued.

Keep that fractional banking concept in mind as we examine our first central bank, the First Bank of the United States (BUS). It was created, after bitter dissent in the Congress, in 1791 and chartered for 20 years. A scam not unlike the current FED, the BUS used its control of the currency to defraud the public and establish a legal form of usury.

This bank practiced fractional lending at a 10:1 rate, ten dollars of loans for each dollar they had on deposit. This misuse and abuse of their public charter continued for the entire 20 years of their existence. Public outrage over these abuses was such that the charter was not renewed and the bank ceased to exist in 1811.

The war of 1812 left the country in economic chaos, seen by bankers as another opportunity for easy profits. They influenced Congress to charter the second central bank, the Second Bank of the United States (SBUS), in 1816.

The SBUS was more expansive than the BUS. The SBUS sold franchises and literally doubled the number of banks in a short period of time. The country began to boom and move westward, which required money. Using fractional lending at the 10:1 rate, the central bank and their franchisees created the debt/money for the expansion.

Things boomed for a while, then the banks decided to shut off the debt/money, citing the need to control inflation. This action on the part of the SBUS caused bankruptcies and foreclosures. The banks then took control of the assets that were used as security against the loans.

Closely examine how the SBUS engineered this cycle of prosperity and depression. The central bank caused inflation by creating debt/money for loans and credit and making these funds readily available. The economy boomed. Then they used the inflation which they created as an excuse to shut off the loans/credit/money.

The resulting shortage of cash caused the economy to falter or slow dramatically and large numbers of business and personal bankruptcies resulted. The central bank then seized the assets used as security for the loans. The wealth created by the borrowers during the boom was then transferred to the central bank during the bust. And you always wondered how the big guys ended up with all the marbles.

Now, who do you think is responsible for all of the ups and downs in our economy over the last 85 years? Think about the depression of the late '20s and all through the '30s. The FED could have pumped lots of debt/money into the market to stimulate the economy and get the country back on track, but did they? No; in fact, they restricted the money supply quite severely. We all know the results that occurred from that action, don't we?

Why would the FED do this? During that period asset values and stocks were at rock bottom prices. Who do you think was buying everything at 10 cents on the dollar? I believe that it is referred to as consolidating the wealth. How many times have they already done this in the last 85 years?

Do you think they will do it again?

Just as an aside at this point, look at today's economy. Markets are declining. Why? Because the FED has been very liberal with its debt/credit/money. The market was hyper inflated. Who creates inflation? The FED. How does the FED deal with inflation? They restrict the debt/credit/money. What happens when they do that? The market collapses.

Several months back, after certain central banks said they would be selling large quantities of gold, the price of gold fell to a 25-year low of about $260 per ounce. The central banks then bought gold. After buying at the bottom, a group of 15 central banks announced that they would be restricting the amount of gold released into the market for the next five years. The price of gold went up $75.00 per ounce in just a few days. How many hundreds of billions of dollars did the central banks make with those two press releases?

Gold is generally considered to be a hedge against more severe economic conditions. Do you think that the private banking families that own the FED are buying or selling equities at this time? (Remember: buy low, sell high.) How much money do you think these FED owners have made since they restricted the money supply at the top of this last current cycle?

Alan Greenspan has said publicly on several occasions that he thinks the market is overvalued, or words to that effect. Just a hint that he will raise interest rates (restrict the money supply), and equity markets have a negative reaction. Governments and politicians do not rule central banks, central banks rule governments and politicians. President Andrew Jackson won the presidency in 1828 with the promise to end the national debt and eliminate the SBUS. During his second term President Jackson withdrew all government funds from the bank and on January 8, 1835, paid off the national debt. He is the only president in history to have this distinction. The charter of the SBUS expired in 1836.

Without a central bank to manipulate the supply of money, the United States experienced unprecedented growth for 60 or 70 years, and the resulting wealth was too much for bankers to endure. They had to get back into the game. So, in 1910 Senator Nelson Aldrich, then Chairman of the National Monetary Commission, in collusion with representatives of the European central banks, devised a plan to pressure and deceive Congress into enacting legislation that would covertly establish a private central bank.

This bank would assume control over the American economy by controlling the issuance of its money. After a huge public relations campaign, engineered by the foreign central banks, the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was slipped through Congress during the Christmas recess, with many members of the Congress absent. President Woodrow Wilson, pressured by his political and financial backers, signed it on December 23, 1913.

The act created the Federal Reserve System, a name carefully selected and designed to deceive. "Federal" would lead one to believe that this is a government organization. "Reserve" would lead one to believe that the currency is being backed by gold and silver. "System" was used in lieu of the word "bank" so that one would not conclude that a new central bank had been created.

In reality, the act created a private, for profit, central banking corporation owned by a cartel of private banks. Who owns the FED? The Rothschilds of London and Berlin; Lazard Brothers of Paris; Israel Moses Seif of Italy; Kuhn, Loeb and Warburg of Germany; and the Lehman Brothers, Goldman, Sachs and the Rockefeller families of New York.

Did you know that the FED is the only for-profit corporation in America that is exempt from both federal and state taxes? The FED takes in about one trillion dollars per year tax free! The banking families listed above get all that money.

Almost everyone thinks that the money they pay in taxes goes to the US Treasury to pay for the expenses of the government. Do you want to know where your tax dollars really go? If you look at the back of any check made payable to the IRS you will see that it has been endorsed as "Pay Any F.R.B. Branch or Gen. Depository for Credit U.S. Treas. This is in Payment of U.S. Oblig." Yes, that's right, every dime you pay in income taxes is given to those private banking families, commonly known as the FED, tax free.

Like many of you, I had some difficulty with the concept of creating money from nothing. You may have heard the term "monetizing the debt," which is kind of the same thing. As an example, if the US Government wants to borrow $1 million ó the government does borrow every dollar it spends ó they go to the FED to borrow the money. The FED calls the Treasury and says print 10,000 Federal Reserve Notes (FRN) in units of one hundred dollars.

The Treasury charges the FED 2.3 cents for each note, for a total of $230 for the 10,000 FRNs. The FED then lends the $1 million to the government at face value plus interest. To add insult to injury, the government has to create a bond for $1 million as security for the loan. And the rich get richer. The above was just an example, because in reality the FED does not even print the money; it's just a computer entry in their accounting system. To put this on a more personal level, let's use another example.

Today's banks are members of the Federal Reserve Banking System. This membership makes it legal for them to create money from nothing and lend it to you. Today's banks, like the goldsmiths of old, realize that only a small fraction of the money deposited in their banks is ever actually withdrawn in the form of cash. Only about 4 percent of all the money that exists is in the form of currency. The rest of it is simply a computer entry.

Let's say you're approved to borrow $10,000 to do some home improvements. You know that the bank didn't actually take $10,000 from its pile of cash and put it into your pile? They simply went to their computer and input an entry of $10,000 into your account. They created, from thin air, a debt which you have to secure with an asset and repay with interest. The bank is allowed to create and lend as much debt as they want as long as they do not exceed the 10:1 ratio imposed by the FED.

It sort of puts a new slant on how you view your friendly bank, doesn't it? How about those loan committees that scrutinize you with a microscope before approving the loan they created from thin air. What a hoot! They make it complex for a reason. They don't want you to understand what they are doing. People fear what they do not understand. You are easier to delude and control when you are ignorant and afraid.

Now to put the frosting on this cake. When was the income tax created? If you guessed 1913, the same year that the FED was created, you get a gold star. Coincidence? What are the odds? If you are going to use the FED to create debt, who is going to repay that debt? The income tax was created to complete the illusion that real money had been lent and therefore real money had to be repaid. And you thought Houdini was good.

So, what can be done? My father taught me that you should always stand up for what is right, even if you have to stand up alone.

If "We the People" don't take some action now, there may come a time when "We the People" are no more. You should write a letter or send an email to each of your elected representatives. Many of our elected representatives do not understand the FED. Once informed they will not be able to plead ignorance and remain silent.

Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution specifically says that Congress is the only body that can "coin money and regulate the value thereof." The US Constitution has never been amended to allow anyone other than Congress to coin and regulate currency.

Ask your representative, in light of that information, how it is possible for the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, and the Federal Reserve Bank that it created, to be constitutional. Ask them why this private banking cartel is allowed to reap trillions of dollars in profits without paying taxes. Insist on an answer.

Thomas Jefferson said, "If the America people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Jefferson saw it coming 150 years ago. The question is, "Can you now see what is in store for us if we allow the FED to continue controlling our country?"


Posted by: Mark Aug 19 2004, 10:20 AM
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the Government, to whom it properly belongs."
~ Thomas Jefferson, President of United States

"You are a den of vipers. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out."
~ Andrew Jackson, President of United States

"If the people only understood the rank injustice of our Money and Banking system, there would be a revolution before morning."
~ Andrew Jackson, President of United States

"The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest."
~ Abraham Lincoln, President of United States

"If our nation is ever taken over, it will be taken over from within."
~ James Madison, President of United States

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance".
~ James Madison, President of United States

Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits.
~ Sir Josiah Stamp, President of the Bank of England in the 1920´s, the second richest man in Britain

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."
~ Woodrow Wilson, President of United States

Posted by: Survivalist Aug 19 2004, 01:30 PM
"You are a den of vipers. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out."
~ Andrew Jackson, President of United States

Andy failed. The vipers' rule has never been stronger. However, the fact he mentions it should be enough proof it exists.

"If the people only understood the rank injustice of our Money and Banking system, there would be a revolution before morning."
~ Andrew Jackson, President of United States

Perhaps, then. Today, the masses are the epitome of a drugged state of being, dependant on media and government. Today, no one would believe the truth to be facing some hard recconning over what is easy. Only a complete failure of government would free the people of their dependancy.

"The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest."
~ Abraham Lincoln, President of United States

Lincoln was obviously an evil bastard who executed many agendas for the goal of one.

"If our nation is ever taken over, it will be taken over from within."
~ James Madison, President of United States

It has been taken over, even as it was originally owned by the Crown, the interests that own the U.S. are still the Crown.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance".
~ James Madison, President of United States

Alertness test:

What's changed?
It's worse.

Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits.
~ Sir Josiah Stamp, President of the Bank of England in the 1920´s, the second richest man in Britain

Money is the control factor that we "choose" to be a control factor.

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."
~ Woodrow Wilson, President of United States

Same question; What's different?

We have all this condemning info from the horses' mouths, but what has been gained by what has been said? A long time has transpired since many of prominence have gave to the public red flags. More examples of the depths of servitude programmed into the masses.

Posted by: Mark Aug 19 2004, 02:03 PM
Lincoln was obviously an evil bastard who executed many agendas for the goal of one.

Here's a quote that shows his true colors. We were fed many lies and half truths about Lincoln in our American schools. I never read anything like this below.

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races... that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races. . . . I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
~ Abraham Lincoln, in an 1858 debate

The lie that the U.S. Civil War was fought over slavery needs to be addressed.

Surv, it's really sad the way the minds of Americans have been molded to all think alike. Anyone who speaks differently than what the controllers have ingrained into the minds of so many is immediately attacked, condemned and ridiculed.

Who's famous words were these below?

"Stop playing their game"


Posted by: JEP Aug 19 2004, 05:47 PM
Hi Pupp, Surv,
Replies to Pupp on religion factor.

Thanks for answering the questions I posed.
Welcome, there is nothing like a good vetting discussion on the middle of the internet.
Everyone should try it sometime.

You are correct on all except I disagree with the religion answer...
I can understand your remark here. I was speaking along the lines of Govt. relative answers. The Govt has this hands off religion factors due to concepts from the Constutution. When the Constitutions writers imparted their great insights on how things should be run, there was not a national religious state of Israel that sent the world religions back 5,000 years. When Israel come along, suddenly all the religion BS from that took on a international presence.

Hitler was forced to address these factors when they hit him in the face, the Russians had attempts to address these factors. The US thinks it can avoid this recurring problem---no way.

Religion should not become a mechanism to take over the US, but it all too well has become one.

I believe the bloodlines (some claiming to be jews) have controlled religions for centuries. (at least for 5765 years)
In the US, we are certainly dominated by the Judeo-Christian stuff. What is worse is few that claim to be of this ilk don't even understand the issues below the surface of their own beliefs.

Religions have often become the foundations for laws and formed the fabric of many countries. However, for these concepts to last they all have to be formed from the truth. Which is where the rub comes in. The Jews have designed their religion to promote concepts of monopoly and control of the lesser people. It misrepresents God.

The basic problem is the Govt is going to have to deal with this Jewish factor that exploits the flaws in the Constitution that allow this monopoly, racketeering, and domination of the US money systems. Freedom of religion is not an excuse to allow the money system to be Jewish dominated, the news to become Jewish controlled, the dealth of US presidents in Coups for Israel to be conceiled from the US citizens, or to allow the cover up of fluorides health effects that also link to health effects from the days of Moses and his Volcano God fantasies.

Freedom of religion in the US cannot be allowed to become a base for absolute fraud claims and take over of the US.

So, there needs to be an open vetting process that identifies these issues and deals with them -- without the AD league, which was funded by Meyer Lanski, out attempting to call US citizens names and labels.

As best I can tell Judaism does not have even the simplest real truth on God, but their blind faith for thousands of years claims they do. Blind Faith is just another name for a concept of 1984, the ultimate in brain washing. A system where truth does not matter, only fascist principles. Sounds like the GOP and the evangelists, doesn't it.!? These are principle parts of the problem. The GOP system is one of blind truth and faith, religious followers, not ones based on truth.

The religious leaders all stand out like a sore thumb to me.
Yes, I know the feeling. You should be down South were it gets really thick with the BS coming from the preachers that all claim to know God, but the reality is they all know their pocket books are easily filled by Elmer Gantry type scam acts in the deep South. Fraud is fraud---even hiding behind religion.

They also have controlled the monetary/usury system for centuries too.
Very true, and this level of monopoly hiding behind religion system covenants needs to end----by Congressional actions, by anti-monoploy laws being applied to religions, and all the available means. Even going back and finishing all the things that JFK was in the process of doing.

We really need to not only solve the JFK crime right in front of the Jewish controlled media, for the common man walking down the streets. We need to get on into finishing what he started. The crookest CIA boys need to be charged, convicted, and lined up to meet a firing squad. Do unto them like they did unto JFK.

Is it any wonder why someone like me would be surrounded for decades by those who claim to be Jews (and Mormons too) to keep tabs on me, distract me, occupy my time, introducing me to addictions, and trying to keep me from learning the truth.
One of the tricks is they all try to drown people with rhetoric, some even try to steal peoples rights by claim superiour knowledge. All this stuff on fluorides cover up was done by persons claiming to be experts, but in reality working to perform a huge cover up for big business and keeping the public dumbed down.

The system then goes on to promote an atmosphere of fear, using religion's that prey on simple people, on up to the Bush promoting wars on religion all based on false concepts.

This fear stuff is out of control also and it totally ruins the US concept of persuit of liberty and happiness. The Pentagon likes to instill this culture of fear, because it gets them huge Congressional appropriations.

Compare the US to Canada, in Canada almost everyones front door is unlock all nite long--even the single womens. In the US, this fear thing has most peoples door double bolted in the middle of the day. Watch Bowling for Columbine sometime and the culture set up in places like L-M dominated Littleton. Co. Hint the problem is not the guns---it is this haze of heavy gloom and doom.

THEY know I am not afraid of them and cannot be intimidated, threatened or bribed into silence.
I can tell. Keep talking, loud and clear. In the churches, on the sidewalks, in letters to editors, on the internet, and to the few in Congress. Persons like Cynthia McKinney, who is female, black, and from the deep South----but one who knows the scams that Israel keeps pulling on the Dumb Americans.

It seems that you also have this most excellant quality.
Pupp, Surv, Hopefully, we can plant the seeds of truth all around and watch them grow.

That is truly a concept that God, Jesus, and the base concepts from all religions understand and value.

Start a wave of truth and let it circle the globe. End the crooked US national security classifications that cover up these many crimes. Dump the Bush thugs and put truth tellers in the high places.


Posted by: Survivalist Aug 19 2004, 06:12 PM
Hi JP.
That was an extremely thoughtful post that hits directly on how false doctrines (lies) taint, influence and control government and the masses.

I get a kick out of shocking people and challenging their programmed perceptions.

How can a program justify itself? Through it's effectiveness. Their program is the pinnacle of effectiveness. There's no way to win in their game. Bring changes through the system? That's a Hoot!

PUPP,.........Those BASTARDS!

Posted by: JEP Aug 19 2004, 06:13 PM
BTW---I could not help but not notice the newest shout:
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it" ~ Albert Einstein

It is rather telling that one of the greatest minds of 20th century science, with a Jewish surname, did not buy into these false concepts of religions.

Check his thoughts on the subject:

We can value his science mind, so why not more thoughts ?

Isn't science supposed to be about defining the truths of nature and religion about seeking the truth of nature/ God--making them really one in the same.

Censored controlled science needs to end and there are some false concepts in religions that need to be tossed out in front of the entire world.


Posted by: Mark Aug 19 2004, 07:11 PM
Surv, you always make me chuckle when you say ... THOSE BASTARDS!

Though, it's not really's sad what THEY have done.

JP, thanks for the Einstein link.

"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation."

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

~ Albert Einstein

What about a god that enjoys the smell of burning flesh and sacrificial offerings?

That part of the bible ALWAYS disturbed me.

Posted by: JEP Aug 19 2004, 08:45 PM

Pupp writes:

"What about a god that enjoys the smell of burning flesh and sacrificial offerings?

That part of the bible ALWAYS disturbed me."


Such perfidious things should disturb everyone. Such items certainly disturbed Einstein as well. So, you are in real good company, Pupp.

Religions should learn with time, but in the case of this wayward Jewish God concept stuff, they are frozen in the wrongs of 5,000 years past. Peoples that refuse to learn are doomed to forever repeat the past mistakes and corrections.

Religion can be a form of inability to learn and act responsibly.

Getting back into the topic of JFK, I believe it was Jackie that termed the JFK White House as the "Camelot" time. The legend of Camelot is very applicable to then and now. After Jesus was offed for his differing opinions on what was wrong with the Jewish pontifs, his family fled Israel down through Eqypt and alledgidly ended up in the Avalon area of the UK.

Here is where the legends of Camelot, King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table, Excalibur steel sword were found. Jesus family was into mining and Jesus was supposed to have traveled to the UK to visit some tin mines when he was kid. So, it is not out of the question that his family ended up in this area.

Even when one gets into the issues of the famous sword called Excalibur, one can find the issues of the metal sciences. In the swampy waters around Avalon there was a type of bacteria that formed globules of iron that were low in carbon. The effect made a natural steel. When heated and pounded into shape, it because the unbreakable weapon of Arthur.

Camelot was essentially formed from fleeing the Jewish state of control and false religion.

JFK was killed by the same corrupted controlling mindset that killed Jesus himself.

Thus: Camelot and JFK association. Jackie knew what killed her husband and orphoned her kids.


Posted by: BJ1 Aug 20 2004, 06:22 AM
"What about a god that enjoys the smell of burning flesh and sacrificial offerings?"

That was the old MOSAIC law. If you had read the prophets, you would see that God NEVER commanded or even suggested a sacrifice.

I think it is Isaiah who wrote that God wanted only for us to obey the 10 words (Commandments) and to take care of the widows and orphans. Jesus enlarged on that when he gave us responsibility to take care of each other, the least aid was the offering of a cup of cold water to the thirsty.

So don't go laying the enjoyment of "the smell of burning flesh" off on God. Read the Bible, for heaven's sake, before you accuse the Almighty of being an ogre!


Posted by: JEP Aug 20 2004, 06:42 AM
Hi BJ,

Is it not Dubya that is the great Bible scholar, Methodist no less, and has done:

"Read the Bible, for heaven's sake, before you accuse the Almighty of being an ogre!"

Then W went on to support lots of all out lies and an invasion of Iraq to support those that wrote the first sections of the Bible narratives.

Dubya means War, doesn't it.

What does Bush's religion mean?


Posted by: BJ1 Aug 20 2004, 09:34 AM
Hi, JEP! You wrote: "What does Bush's religion mean?"

He has invited many "Christian" evangelists (big names) to the WH to explain prophecy to him. Billy Graham has been one of his mentors. Jack Ven Impe was invited for a one on one consultation. Then, of course, there are the others who disdain the Muslim religion anyway, Hal Lindsey for one. Some of these evangelists are working for the CIA as spies.

Bush is listening to them instead of the God of the Bible, who would have him call in others that are not warring against their neighbors, but seeking peace. You know, "Blessed are the PEACEMAKERS for they shall see God". And the good ones don't advocate lying and killing and destroying to gain control of the whole world.

That's the difference. A false Christianity. They will say they are Christians, Jews, or Muslims, but are practicing Hindus, an idolatrous religion. Goes way back.


Posted by: Survivalist Aug 20 2004, 11:37 AM
Hi All,
There is no judgements of GS by GS. GS "IS". Good and evil are comprised of exactly the same GS. What is the difference between good and evil? Programming. How else would we know? Our spirit? GS knows it is enternal and GS. Our spirits, as such, are all the SAME GS. As stated earlier, on another thread, the higher levels of GS are: manipulators of space/GS, and higher GS; Wizards, Sorcerers/Sorceress' (hehe), and higher; angels, demons, u-name-it, and the highest; Creators.

BJ, please read "I'm never alone" thread. Tear up the "simplicity of infinity and the oneness of infinity/GS" with the greatness of the bible. Please explain how the bible is MORE RELATIVE than what is said, there. Please explain why the "TEN COMMANDMENTS" superscedes "the ONE law" and prove the 10 statements are relative at all when 1 law would suffice:........ "DO as you would have done". In fact, an "Open Invitation to all who covet a "lie" to defend the "lie" against the simplicity of infinity/GS on that thread.
I will represent GS, since obviously, those who covet a learned belief are representing the animal/GS.

I'm mostly in an alter consciousness to be a conduit for GS flow to communicate with EGOS. GS is infinity, joyful and straight to the point. The EGOS know exactly how quick I can be, nonetheless a joyfulful GS. I defeated and contain my ego, and can CERTAINLY "grandstand" any EGO(S) that wish to entertain the fantasy of animal that is anything more the creations OF AND FROM GS.

There's no need to tip-toe around this issue anymore. GS to animal/GS.

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 20 2004, 04:46 PM
Hi, Survivalist! I have been to your thread "I'm Never Alone". What can I say!

It seems that you know everything there is to know, and I know everything I need to know to get through this life on a daily basis.

Trying to be a decent person doesn't come from being hatched on a rock somewhere in the wilderness for us to grow up like wild flowers, so that we can say we found the truth on our own. There are absolutes that are learned, first from our parents, teachers, peers, and experience. Then it's up to us to choose how we will incorporate what we have learned into our lives. It's so simple! And so personal! I just do unto others as I would have them do to me. In short, be nice, but don't take any crap.

I believe one way and you believe another. OK. I'm not changing, just growing--and older every day at that. And you aren't changing, either, but growing, too. smile.gif


Posted by: Survivalist Aug 20 2004, 06:21 PM
Hi all.

Freedom of choice is only executed when consideration, with the same weight as the highest held truth, is given to that which is not wanted, or yet considered.

I don't know everything, but I have a direct connection to infinity that does.

What is conveyed through me, is minus ego, as I speak on it as well.

Those with open hearts will be a open connection to infinity. The ego is an animal that tries, and in most cases, rules over the inherent GS connection. But if the event occurs, "knowing" to some degree at least, will occur as part of the intent that manifested the event.

We are each free to create any fantasy we wish. Most are low-level creations spawned by GS's caught in the "loop".

Posted by: Mark Aug 20 2004, 07:33 PM
"do unto others as I would have them do to me"

handclap.gif handclap.gif handclap.gif

If only everyone would abide by those words, the world would be a wonderful place.

Posted by: JEP Aug 22 2004, 12:33 AM
Hi All,

Other little bits of info pointing to things happening at ground level are things like this:

Smith was directing traffic at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets at the time of the shooting. Immediately after, a woman rushed up to him and yelled, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." Smith ran down Elm Street and entered the parking lot behind the stockade fence. An FBI report from Dec. 9, 1963 tells part of the story from there:

He [Patrolman Smith] stated he did smell what he thought was gunpowder but stated that this smell was in the parking lot near the Depository and not by the underpass. (Thompson, "Six Seconds In Dallas," pg. 124)


Other items to take closer note:

The Zapruder Film was reshot in large format and computer digitized around 1998 and this copy shows the lowest degridation from the original. It also shows all the image data between the sprocket holes. The 3rd generation copies that lots of the investigations saw were very obscured or muddy, and these prompt trace lines did not show well. Likely because lots of the upper level conspiracy types did not want these prompt trace lines to be noted well, or the ballistic analysis undertaken.

Just looking real close at the high resolution Zapruder film copy, frames 313. 314, and the two prompt lines that appeared before the skill split and blood. These two fast lines would have to be some heavy fragments and be moving close to the direction and speed of the original impact bullet. Each appears to have some rotation effects, and each the same rate of rotation. Suggesting the effects of rifiling rotation.

If the head shot bullet had come from Owald, from behind, it would be impossible for these fragments to have much energy going off a near right angles from that bullet's impinging trace pathway. The same arguement applies to the bullet coming from behind the wooden fence on the grassy knoll.

The analysis of these promt fragment lines tends to support the shot coming from the Pergola Garden area.

It is interesting to note that all the damage to JFK's head seen in the high res Zapruder remake is to the right front, and nothing shows on the back of his head. The back of his head is clearly visible in several films.


Posted by: JEP Aug 22 2004, 08:15 AM
Hi All,

The evidence for a right front hit of JFK's head is overwhelming and shows the upmost existance of a Conspiracy. The Zapruder film's high resolution copy clearly shows that bullet fragment energy goes out the left side of JFK and in front of Jackie. Frames subsequent of 313 - 314 show a trench open in JFK's head from his right ear to this forehead. Even what appears to be a large skull fragment adhering to the scalp folds around and hits him in the right face.

Many witnesses support seeing the same. It is clear that several types of bullets are used, both exloding type and full metal jacket types that are good for metal penetration. The shooters were ready to two types of events---one being the top on the car and the other being no top.

See the additional data and witness reports:

Altgens first told the FBI that the bullet struck President Kennedy on the right side of his head and that particles of flesh, blood and bones appeared to fly from the right side of Kennedy's head and "pass in front of Mrs. Kennedy" to the left of the limo.

Marlyn Sitzman Standing on pedestal near Pergola, to Kennedy's right
Said she "could see his brains come out, you know, his head opening. . . it exploded his head, more or less." Where? "Between the eye and the ear."

Sam Holland On Triple Underpass directly above Elm Street Right side Six Seconds in Dallas, p. 105 Told Josiah Thompson the "whole right side" of Kennedy's head "including part of his face" had been blown off.

Had he seen the originals, he would have observed a cloud of metallic fragments clustered in the right front portion of the head. Furthermore, the close-up photograph of the margins of the large wound in the head shows numerous small fragments. The Forensic Pathology Panel itself noted the presence of "missile dust" near the wound in the front of the head. One of the expert radiologists who examined the x-rays noticed "a linear alignment of tiny metallic fragments" located in the "posterior aspect of the right frontal bone." The chief autopsy pathologist, Dr. James J. Humes, remarked about the numerous metallic fragments like grains of sand scattered near the front head wound. The medical evidence, then, definitely proves the existence of a cloud of fragments in the right front portion of Kennedy's head, convincing evidence, according to Sturdivan, that an exploding bullet actually did strike the president there. (CRIME OF THE CENTURY, Knoxville: The University of Tennessee Press, 1982, pp. 177-178)


Posted by: JEP Aug 22 2004, 09:10 AM
Hi All,

An example of the low resolution photographic mud that was published by Life can be seen 2/3 of the way down this page. Notice neither the fast fragment lines or the trench in JFK's head are visible. But for the owners of the original film, these artifacts were very visible and they were able to publish these clear images. But did not do so.



Posted by: JEP Aug 24 2004, 05:27 PM
Hi All,

Since we have the photos working well on Pupp's pleasant internet forum, and I appear to the "speaking to the Choir" on crooked Government and Conspiracies, some more icon photos for you all to consider.

Most of you all know the Vietnam war broke out of the the issues of Catholcism taking some control of the rulers of Vietnam. The war broke out over trying to protect these Catholic crusades in Vietnam.

So, the Pope and company were none to happy when JFK was going to pull out of Vietnam and let these people support their own wars and choose their own religions. JFK learned a lot on religion and perhaps even that God was created for Man's purposes and not vice versa. He certainly learned to let the people of Vietnam choose their own directions. All that, despite shutting down the CIA funding methods for Cuba using drugs.

With that laid on the table, an interesting statue is in the Garden of St. Mary's Catholic church in Oak Ridge, Tn.. For those that seek to find it, This church is on the main street in Oak Ridge and right across from the downtown mall area. The Mary statue faces the wide grassy plain next to the main road.

Here are two photos of this statue and it has some interesting meanings of the sort that Michaelanglo would imbed in his works.

user posted image

and second

user posted image

As one can see this is the statue of the Virgin Mary, but with some interesting modifications. Jewish Mary wears the hat of the Old World Pontifs.

Mary stands on the classical snake that represents the poisons from the Earth that must be controlled for good health and longevity.

Mary stands on a globe with an atom symbol.

Notice the Sun sign in the middle. Astrological sun sign is a circle with a dot in the middle. Most of the really old religions originated from the worship of Sun and the Natural Order.

Notice the Atom orbits form the Star of David, the principle sign for the Jews. The Jews were highly into discovery of the nuclear things, from fission on up to making the nuke bombs work.

The chilling and sinister thing is that the statue faces the Y-12 nuclear weapons plant, just adjacent to downtown Oak Ridge. This is the home of the plot that offed JFK, all based on the Jewish/Israel issues.

Only the top insiders in Oak Ridge know the full significance of this Icon statue in downtown Oak Ridge. In Oak Ridge, it is more of a secret sign than the Creation Painting on the ceiling of the Sistine.


Posted by: JEP Aug 24 2004, 05:42 PM
The details to keep in mind are that the plants in Oak Ridge were code named to Jewish linked code names. Plants like Y-12 were linked to Yahwah and the 12 disciples. X-10 was named after the X for God in Catholicism and the Ten Commandments. Initially, lots of the Jews thought they were chasing the power of God with the nuclear experiments and the thing that caused the destruction of the Euphrates Valley. [See Truman's July 25, 45 diary entries.]

The other plant ended up being more related to this God effect, and the K-25 plant was named for the Kellex process that used 25 percent of the Manhattan Project's funds to make what they called product 25 or HEU for the bomb.

The K-25 plant ended up being a fluoide disaster on health and environment and its impacts on humans like the real destruction in the Euphrates Valley from volcanic effects causing great rains and floods. These same effects today are related to the need for chemtrails to control fluorides effects on the atmosphere and health.


Posted by: BJ1 (Unlogged) Aug 25 2004, 06:27 AM
" JFK learned a lot on religion and perhaps even that God was created for Man's purposes and not vice versa."

Perhaps not. Spiritual sentiment overrides scientific theory, which has become a "god" to those who believe that God doesn't exist except in the minds of man. Oh, boy, are they in for a rude awakening.


Posted by: Mark Aug 25 2004, 09:53 AM
user posted image

This image still has me semi-stunned.

The Star of David and Nuclear energy (the atom) forming one symbol.

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 25 2004, 05:03 PM
"This image still has me semi-stunned.
The Star of David and Nuclear energy (the atom) forming one symbol."

Wow! Makes me wonder how many other symbols we have seen yet not "seen", thinking them to be artwork or just scientific symbols. They are really a hidden sign language, which we are just now beginning to decipher.


Posted by: JEP Aug 26 2004, 06:32 AM
BJ, Pupp, all,

Old world sculpting and even some art is loaded with hidden meanings, and religious icons especially. Most people walk around the South and don't even notice a common Civil War code for statues:

"If a statue in the park of a person on a horse has both front legs
in the air, the person died in battle.
If the horse has one front leg in the air the person
died as a result of wounds received in battle. If
the horse has all four legs on the ground, the person died of natural

Even in playing cards there are symbols:

"Each king in a deck of playing cards represents a great king from
history: Spades - King David, Hearts - Charlemagn, Clubs -Alexander, the Great,
Diamonds - Julius Caesar."

And another little noticed fact is that----"Intelligent people have more zinc and copper in their hair." This is an artifact of low fluoride. Fluoride alters beneficial trace metal retention in the body. Fluoride affects manganese levels, which is directly linked to the susceptabilty toward HIV transmission in populations.

In the Icon statues of old world religion there are the hidden meanings:
In the orginal Mary statue the snake coming from the Earth and bitting into the Apple: this is all about the same issues as it linked to Eve and the poison apple in the Garden of Eden. Mary's foot on the apple suggests that toxics entering the food chain from the Earth need to be controlled. Which is one of the huge problems that we have today----this factor is not well controlled------especially not with the rat poison called fluoride.

In the case of Eve and the Garden, this toxic effect leads to issues of falling off the eternal life equation, longevity, and leads to much too high a rate of reproduction in the population of the planet. I think the entire world notes these effects today and it is a top issue in the national security business. The toxic effects even drive afrodesiac effects----and one can see the object of most persons thoughts in this area today and on TV.

Per nuke bomb and power of the atom, The Jewish were always the ones into the Bomb research, so it is not unusual that the atom symbol for nuclear has embedded the Star of David. Watch the movie called "Fat Man and Little Boy" sometime. The very beginning of the movie starts with a meeting with "The Creation" being shown. Michaelangelo and others of his time were into sketching detailed drawings of the human organs, like the brain---despite this being forebidden by the Pope at these times.

Put simply, all religious icons have a veiled meaning----and when one grasps those little hidden meanings--------the world becomes much more clear. Lots of religion in the US tends to ignore the real meanings of these icons.

Even in the old days, when hebrew was the language, iconistic names were largely related to God doing or causing all things. In reality, they likely should have said something like the natural order of things. But, they didn't. And one can observe iconistic names from the hebrew langage:

Emmannuel from the Hebrew, meaning 'G-d is with us' (Manny).
Eden from the Hebrew, meaning 'enchanting'.
Eden from the Hebrew, meaning a 'pleasant place'.
Adam from the Hebrew meaning, 'formed of the red earth'.
Eve from the Hebrew, meaning 'life giver' (Evie, Evita).
Noah from the Hebrew, meaning 'rest, comfort and peace' (Genesis 5.29).
Moses from the Hebrew, meaning 'taken from the water'.
Mary from the Hebrew, meaning 'bitter' (Mara, Polly, Molly).

The entire message from Noah was more about volcanic effects, than any issue linked to a big boat.


Posted by: BJ1 Aug 26 2004, 08:00 AM
Thanks, JEP, for enlarging on the signs in artwork and names! While reading the Scriptures, I often wondered if the use of names applied to a greater concept than just the naming of an individual.

There are many ancient symbols, in use today, which can be traced back to early Egyptian times. In PuPP's "Skulls" thread, much of these can be traced back to the tribe of Dan, which spawned the Merovingians, who are prominent in politics today, who use the same signs in archetecture and other artwork covertly as messages. We might liken them to fingerprints of the ancestry of these people.


Posted by: JEP Aug 26 2004, 10:20 AM

All those old cultures had real reasons for their icons and symbols, which are sometimes called myths these days. These so called myths were icon symbols for certain lessons learned from nature, astrology, and from mans interactions with man. There are a few folkes that understand a good deal of these old relationships and why there were made into icons. It helps to go back to the beginnings to get a grasp on what was important.

The explanations are note very popular because of what the information will do to modern concepts for religion and medicine. We have some real problems with mythological hydras these days and there appears one from religion and one involving the US Govt. Despite lots of resistance, many are beginning to help chop of the heads of these hydras and are getting to the central concepts of the problems of the world.

These old cultures learned things the hard way and it is hard to devalue 10,000 years worth of human experiences. Take, for instance, the myth on Frankenstein. The real legend comes from Germany and Dr. Dobson, staying on a rich estate, decided to examine these peoples ancestors bones in the estate cemetary and found them to be laden with lead visible on the surface. So, the fella decided to try cyanide, prussian blue, methods to cause the lead to shed in living people. This is one of the legendary stories from the trails on alchemy. These days, we know these like effects being associated with B-17 and laetrile.

The Roman Empire took a wrong turn with metals and pretty much killed itself with lead used in food storage and water supply systems. Old cultures like in France learned better cooking methods and started using tin lined copper cookware. This is part of why they fare better with health, plus the use of lots of wine---another alchemical orgin idea.

Even when we get into learning about coronary artery diseases these days and the value of copper in keeping these cleaned out-----it gets right back into a fluoride problem. Fluoride exposures alter copper retention.

All these old artists were into alchemy to a large degree, because they had to be magicans with metals that were used to make their colors for artworks. Some dug deeper and appears a few learned the internal magic of trace metals.

Humans knew more of health and longevity in these old times than all the modern medicines of today. They lived a thousand years only by simple methods of putting only beneficial things into the body. Lots of their observations and learning things the hard way were about avoiding the bad side effects of a terrible element called fluorine.


Posted by: Mark Aug 26 2004, 11:54 AM
Hi gang, just a quicky to let ya know I was here and I truly appreciate the information provided on this subject of metals.

It really ties in many things.

Soooo much to absorb.... oh wait, I'm already absorbing toxic metals that are stripping me away from years of my life.


Posted by: JEP Aug 26 2004, 12:56 PM

Back to JFK. Despite the denial of the Warren White Wash on Ruby's ties to the mofia--Ruby had extensive associations and networking with the Mafia.

See what the HSCA dug up when someone cared to look:


Posted by: JEP Aug 26 2004, 04:31 PM

More details that tie in the Jewish equation on JFK. Obvious one was Rubenstein. Then Lansky. Then Permidex, which is Trade Mart, the place JFK was going to do a fund raiser lunchon. The link Garrison found.

If the leaks had been good enough----Garrison should have connected Jack Ruby and his Jewish support------then connect him to Oak Ridge and back up to CIA Jesus Angleton.

What the book does say is that: When New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison charged businessman Clay Shaw with participation in the JFK assassination conspiracy Garrison stumbled upon the Israeli Mossad connection to the murder of President Kennedy. Shaw served on the board of a shadowy corporation known as Permindex. A primary shareholder in Permindex was the Banque De Credit International of Geneva, founded by Tibor Rosenbaum, an arms procurer and financier for the Mossad.

What's more, the Mossad-sponsored Swiss bank was the chief "money laundry" for Meyer Lansky, the head of the international crime syndicate and an Israeli loyalist whose operations meshed closely on many fronts with the American CIA.

The chairman of Permindex was Louis M. Bloomfield of Montreal, a key figure in the Israeli lobby and an operative of the Bronfman family of Canada, long-time Lansky associates and among Israel's primary international patrons.

Kennedy was brought to Oswald by three strokes of chance. The first was the last-minute cancellation of Kennedy’s honorary degree by Texas Christian University in Forth Worth. That created a slot only partially filled by a breakfast event there. To complete the schedule JFK decided on a motorcade in Dallas, the second stroke of chance.

The third stroke was choosing the venue for the luncheon on the 22nd. Kennedy and the Secret Service preferred one location, but Governor Connally insisted on the Dallas Trade Mart and won out. With the first location, the motorcade would have passed through the middle of Dealey Plaza at high speed and with Mrs. Kennedy between Oswald and JFK. The new site required driving slowly along the edge of the plaza, in the opposite direction and right in front of the depository. This brought Kennedy within easy shooting range and made him a slower, unshielded target. The route first appeared in the papers only three days ahead of time.


Posted by: JEP Aug 26 2004, 06:03 PM
The Dirt on Johnson

McClellan and others before him have discussed the fact that LBJ faced some pretty awful prospects, including not only being dumped from the 1964 ticket but also spending a long, long time in the slammer as a result of his role in the rapidly expanding Bobby Baker case - something few have speculated about because the full facts were never revealed by the media, which didn't want to know, or report, the truth...

Bobby Kennedy, called five of Washington's top reporters into his office and told them it was now open season on Lyndon Johnson. It's OK, he told them, to go after the story they were ignoring out of deference to the administration.

And from that point on until the events in Dallas, Lyndon Baines Johnson's future looked as if it included a sudden end to his political career and a few years in the slammer. The Kennedys had their knives out and sharpened for him and were determined to draw his political blood - all of it.

In the Senate, the investigation into the Baker case was moving quickly ahead. Even the Democrats were cooperating, thanks to the Kennedys, and an awful lot of really bad stuff was being revealed - until Nov. 22, 1963.

By Nov. 23, all Democrat cooperation suddenly stopped. Lyndon would serve a term and a half in the White House instead of the slammer, the Baker investigation would peter out and Bobby Baker would serve a short sentence and go free. Dallas accomplished all of that.

Posted by: JEP Aug 27 2004, 10:23 AM
Hi All,

Just especially for you all on Pupp's place.

What you are about to read now is the real missing pieces from the Oak Ridge link to the JFK assasinations and follow on killings. These are the pieces that are most highly classified within the DOE/CIA/DOJ NS systems. It should become a little more clear why I keep putting the issues of fluorides health effects into the JFK assassination thread, at this point.

By now you all have figured out that LBJ was your basic old fashion low class crook that killed people to get to where he was in politics. He was in big trouble as JFK was being offed. He was so low that he was even connected to killing his own sister, plus many many more.

LBJ, Ruby, Ferrie, etc. teamed up with the Oak Ridge thugs that were working the Cuban stuff to promote keeping their jobs. Oak Ridge found a covert way to kill people.

Oak Ridge found one of the CIA's biggest killing secrets, and the roots of the mind control system. Fluoride was the big secret. Put it in the water and it dulls peoples minds, makes them take near anything they are told at face value. Lowers IQ, energy, etc.

Oak Ridge found that a fluoride called HF, or hydrogen fluoride, could be used covertly to cause sudden death via heart attacks. They saw this in a worker named Jack Owens, who died of a sudden heart attack after he visited the Y-12 green salt operation and sat on HF wetted green salt. HF goes right through the skin and causes damage to heart cell mtDNA that is cumulative over a few days, resulting in heart failure.

For more on this fluoride effects seen in the Manhattan Project, see the book called Fluoride Deception by Bryson. Probems with HF have been known from the beginning. Read sudden death effects from Donora, Pa. and so on.

Using HF to kill people is as simple as making some 20 percent HF solution and accidentally tossing it onto someones skin. In a few days, they will die. It is that subtile a poison.

Fluorides also kill the immune system by greatly increasing susceptabilty from cancers. Keep in mind that David Ferrie, Oswald, and a Dr. Judith Baker were working on a plan to kill Castro using cancer. The way that worked best was to kill the immune system with a poison, then cancer will take up residency in the body. Fluoride in the air is linked to pneumonia type issues of the lungs.

These are the really big CIA-CUBA secrets to which the crooks of the Oak Ridge Y-12 plant were meddling. Y-12 supplied the good ole boys working on killing Castro with the secrets of HF and fluorides on health. Possibly even the killing effects of beryllium dusts.

Variants of the HF killing methods use things like freon burned in cars, which makes a type of fluoride anesthetic gas, that will knock persons out. This was the technique used against Karen Silkwood in the Oklahoma Kerr-McGee mess.


Read about the most secret of the CIA/Oak Ridge methods used for LBJ's Murder Syndicated.

Tom Howard, who died of a heart attack, was a good friend of District Attorney Henry Wade, although they often opposed each other in court. Howard was close to Ruby and other fringes of the Dallas underworld.

Posted by: JEP Aug 27 2004, 11:34 AM

Oak Ridge was into the Cuba issues mainly because they had found a covert
method to assassinate persons using fluorides and especially hydrogen fluoride.
The Manhattan Project had serious health effects from HF releases that took a
toll on workers health. So, they came up with a way to conceil this effect by
making it part of the CIA methods to covertly assassinate foreign leaders. 20
percent HF solutions splashed onto unsuspecting persons skin with go into the
blood stream and cause cumulative damage to heart cell mtDNA resulting in
sudden heart attacks. This effect was found in HF fatality situations such as Y-12
worker named Jack Owens being exposed to HF via skin in the "Green Salt"
operation and then dying after a few days. Books like Fluoride Deception by Bryon
now exposed some of the HF problems linked to the Manhattan Project and

Oswald's home town was New Orleans and he knew persons like David Ferrie from
his Civil Air Patrol Days. CIA asset David Ferrie was into ways to kill
Castro and take back Cuba. One of the methods was to induce cancer into Castro and
a doctor named Dr. Judyth Vary Baker was helping Ferrie with experiments.
Ferrie's home was filled with lab mice to do these experiments. Oswald was a
friend with both Ferrie and Baker, as they worked on this project. Oswald knew all
about the most covert operation to kill Castro, that came to involve Oak
Ridge. Oak Ridge interjected the use of toxics to induce cancers or latent sudden
death via heart attacks. This was to be used by placing a person close to
Castro. Ruby was helping this project along.

Posted by: JEP Aug 27 2004, 11:42 AM
Nigel is going to get to complete this thead here soon.

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 28 2004, 03:12 PM
Hi, JEP and PuPP! This is a very interesting thread, considering its historical value. I just finished rereading a book that is very telling about the Kennedy murders, "America Under Attack" by Gary Dean benKeith, published by The National Times, Inc., 2001. This book reads like a spy novel.

Here is some information taken from an interview with Madeleine Duncan Brown, LBJ's lover of 21 years. Clint Murchinson, owner of the Dallas Cowboys, an oil-rich millionaire, invited her to what was to be one of the largest gatherings of governmental bigwigs ever on the eve of Thursday, November 21, 1963.

Soon after LBJ arrived, he was "summoned to join the others and the group moved with their cigars and drinks into the large library room, and the double doors were closed behind them."

"She confirmed that others in the private circle included the two highest-ranking men in the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover and Clyde Tolson; oil men and industrialists H.L. Hunt, George Brown, and R.L. Thornton; ousted (by JFK) CIA Director Allen Dulles, brother of John Foster, the former Secretary of State in the Eisenhauer administration; and John J. McCloy, chairman of the Chase Manhatten Bank. least two, McCloy and Allen Dulles, were later handpicked by LBJ to sit on the Warren Commission..."

While Madeleine "sat nursing her drink at the bar in Murchinson's den, another acquaintance of hers walked in with a prostitute in tow. It was none other than Jack Ruby." ... "It was common knowledge that Ruby was the supplier of female favors whenever the Washington bigshots came to town. She knew Jack well..."

(Other sources have included George Bush, Sr. and Henry Kissinger.)

We have Oak Ridge, Dallas, New Orleans, and Washington, DC all working together, in full agreement, that both Kennedys had to be taken out because they were getting ready to make some big changes: end the Vietnam War, shut down overseas military bases, put an end to the Federal Reserve board, and back our currency with precious metals, among other things.


Posted by: JEP Aug 28 2004, 07:28 PM

Posted by: JEP Aug 29 2004, 07:18 AM

Unlike Averell Harriman, who reportedly coveted personal political power and
drew sharp criticism from some of his fellow Bonesmen, George Bush has been a
long-term "project" of Skull & Bones. The Bush presidency in real and symbolic
terms represents the effort by the Order to restore the lost spirit of the
WASP warrior Henry Stimson. With the passage of time and the decay of the WASP
elite, the Bush presidency may yet prove to be a tragic replay of past American

George Bush's career was sponsored every step of the way by Skull & Bones
members, mostly of his father's generation. Prescott Bush (Skull & Bones Class of
1917), a Brown Brothers Harriman partner who would serve one term in Congress
as senator from Connecticut, sent George to the traditional private
preparatory school, Phillips Academy in Andover, New Hampshire, which grooms young New
England squires for later studies at Yale.

It was while finishing his prep school training at Andover that Bush was
first exposed to Henry Stimson. Reportedly, Stimson delivered a stirring patriotic
speech to the Phillips student body in l940 arguing forcefully for American
intervention in the war in Europe. Ironically, at that very moment on the Yale
campus, the majority of Skull & Bonesmen were leading the America First
movement, which opposed any such U.S. entanglement in Europe.

When war with Japan broke out a year later, George Bush enlisted in the Navy
and was trained as a pilot. He flew more than 50 missions before being shot
down in the Pacific. At Yale after the war, Bush captained the baseball team and
followed his father's footsteps into the Order.

Political legends have it that George Bush shunned his family's patronage and
went off on his own to launch a business career as an oil wildcatter, or
speculator, in Texas. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Bush moved to Texas
to work for Dresser Industries selling oil drilling equipment. The job was
arranged for him by his father with Dresser president Neil Mallon, who was a
fellow member of Skull & Bones. Desser, according to several sources, had close
ties with the CIA.

After a few years with Dresser, George Bush set up his own company, Zapata
Oil, to explore new oil fields in Texas and Mexico. Again, Bush was heavily
backed by member of his family. Uncle George Herbert Walker, also a Skull &
Bonesman, put up a large amount of capital, as did Brown Brothers Harriman. Lazard
Brothers, a Jewish brokerage house with longstanding friendly ties to the New
England WASPs, put up some money as well, at the urging of Andre Meyer, the
owner of the Washington Post Corporation and the father of the current Post
publisher Kathanne Graham. Zapata Oil sunk the first offshore well for the Kuwaiti

Even with that kind of backing, George Bush was less than a success as a
businessman. In 1964, a longtime Bush friend, William Farrish III of Scotland,
bought the majority of shares in Zapata for $3.2 million to keep the business
afloat, while George, in a major career shift, ran for U.S. Congress from a
wealthy district in Houston, Texas. He won.

During his three terms in Congress (Bush lost the 1970 Senate race to Lloyd
Bentsen), George Bush distinguished himself as an advocate of zero population
growth and a defender of the eugenics movement. Both of these positions,
radical for their day, were probably the result of Bush's close friendship with
William Draper Jr. -- a fellow Bonesman and a longtime advocate of population
reduction schemes in the Third World.

The 1970s were for George Bush years of grooming in high-level politics and
foreign policy. During the Nixon re-election campaign of 1972, George Bush was
the chairman of the Republican National Committee. He later joined the chorus
calling for Nixon's resignation. After a tour as the U.S. Ambassador to the
United Nations, Bush was sent off to Communist China as the Chief Liaison
Officer prior to the formalization of diplomatic relations. Bush shared the Beijing
experience with Winston Lord, a fellow Skull & Bones member who was the CIA
station chief. Lord went on to become president of the New York Council on
Foreign Relations (CFR) in 1983. (The Lord family founded the city of Hartford,
Connecticut, has a large number of Skull & Bones members on its family tree, and
set up one of the most powerful old-line Wall Street law firms, Lord Day
Lord.) In 1975, George Bush completed his "grooming" with a brief stint as Gerald
Ford's CIA director.

In 1980, Bush ran a short-lived campaign against Ronald Reagan for the
Republican Party's presidential nomination. Future running mate Reagan cut short
Bush's 1980 presidential hopes by defeating him soundly in the primary election
in New Hampshire, in the heart of New England. Reagan blasted Bush for his
membership in the internationalist Trilateral Commission, which had attained
notoriety because 20 members of the unpopular Carter administration had served on
the commission. Bush's campaign was otherwise noteworthy because a significant
number of his campaign volunteers were CIA officials; his campaign
organization was directed by six top Agency and Pentagon retirees.

Posted by: JEP Aug 30 2004, 12:26 AM

Texas in the Morning: The Love Story Of Madeleine Brown And President Lyndon Baines Johnson

Madeleine describes an anxious and red-faced LBJ emerging from that party briefing. The words she remembers are: "After tomorrow those God-damned Kennedys will never embarrass me again. That's not a threat, that's a promise."

Posted by: BJ1 Aug 30 2004, 07:39 AM
Quoted from the same source book as noted above, "America Under Attack", by Gary Dean benKeith:

"The first man LBJ met with on Nov. 29th, after he had cleared the foreign dignitaries out of washington was Waggoner Carr, Attorney General, Texas to tell him, "No trial in Texas...ever."

The next man he met, also on Nov. 29th, was J. Edgar Hoover. The first question LBJ asked his old "19-year" neighbor in DC was "Were THEY shooting at me?" LBJ thought that THEY had been shooting at hm also as they shot at his friend John Connally. Note that he asked, "Were THEY shooting at me?" LBJ knew there were several hitmen. That's the ultimate clue...THEY.

The Connallys said the same thing...THEY. Not Oswald."

And here is the managed news part from the author:

"Then came the heavily loaded press releases about Oswald all written before the deal and released actually before LHO had ever been charged with the crime. I bought the first newspaper EXTRA on the streets of ChristChurch New Zealand with the whole LHO story in that first and columns of it before the police in Dallas had yet to charge him with that crime. All this canned material about LHO was flashed around the world."


Posted by: JEP Aug 31 2004, 05:26 AM
Yes BJ, the standard CIA information seeding tactics used on Oswald. Early police reports, officer killed to hopefully get Oswald killed, early press releases worldwide. CIA methods.

All the witnesses die

On 21st July, 1964, Dr. Mary Sherman was murdered in New Orleans. She had been stabbed in the heart, arm, leg and stomach. Her laboratory was also set on fire. The crime has never been solved. Later Edward T. Haslam published Mary, Ferrie & the Monkey Virus : The Story of an Underground Medical Laboratory. In the book he argued that Sherman was working with David Ferrie. Haslam believed that this Central Intelligence Agency backed research involved disease intelligence gathering and cancer research using laboratory-made biological weapons. Haslam claimed this biological weapon was to be used against Cuba’s Fidel Castro.

Judyth Baker later began giving interviews aboout involvement in an anti-Castro conspiracy. She claims that in 1963 she was recruited by Dr. Canute Michaelson to work with Dr. Alton Ochsner and Dr. Mary Sherman in a CIA secret project. This involved creating the means to insure Fidel Castro developed cancer.

In 1963 Judyth moved to New Orleans where she worked closely with others involved in this plot. This included Lee Harvey Oswald, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw and Guy Bannister. Later she claimed she began an affair with Oswald. The research into this biological weapon was carried out in the homes of Ferrie and Sherman. Oswald role in this conspiracy was to work as a courier. However, the project was abandoned in September, 1963, and Oswald was ordered to Dallas.

Oswald kept in touch with Baker and in November, 1963, he had been forced to join a plot to kill John F. Kennedy. Oswald believed that the conspiracy was being organized by Mafia leader, Carlos Marcello and a CIA agent, David Atlee Phillips. Oswald told her he would do what he could to ensure that Kennedy was not killed. After the assassination of Kennedy and the arrest of Oswald, Baker received a phone-call from David Ferrie warning her that she would be killed if she told anyone about her knowledge of these events.

In 1963 Desmond FitzGerald was in charge of the CIA's Cuban Task Force. In this post he personally organized three different plots to assassinate Fidel Castro. According to Dick Russell, FitzGerald had a meeting in France with a Cuban code-named AM/LASH, finalising a plan to eliminate Castro, at the same time John F. Kennedy was assassinated. FitzGerald died of a heart attack while playing tennis in Virginia on 23rd July, 1967.

Mary Sherman worked as a doctor in New Orleans who was murdered on 21st July, 1964. She had been stabbed in the heart, arm, leg and stomach. Her mattress had been set on fire, but her massive burns could not have come from the smoking mattress. The crime has never been solved. Sherman's death occurred on the day the Warren Commission came to her city (New Orleans) to obtain testimony about the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

In 1995 Edward T. Haslam (a reporter who knew Sherman) published Mary, Ferrie & the Monkey Virus : The Story of an Underground Medical Laboratory. In the book he argued that Mary Sherman was working with David Ferrie. Haslam believed that this Central Intelligence Agency backed research involved disease intelligence gathering and cancer research using laboratory-made biological weapons. Haslam claimed this biological weapon was to be used against Cuba’s Fidel Castro.

In 1999 Judyth Baker privately revealed her involvement in an anti-Castro conspiracy to individuals outside her family and to CBS Sixty Minutes investigators in 1999. In late 2000, newsgroups learned who she was and began speculating on what she had to say. She asserted she had been (at first unwittingly) recruited by Dr. Alton Ochsner and Dr. Mary S. Sherman into a get-Castro project that had the backing of the CIA and of the Mafia in New Orleans.

Judyth was offered a summer medical internship with Dr. Sherman by Ochsner: she accepted, and came to New Orleans in April, 1963. There, she met Lee Harvey Oswald, who introduced her to Sherman's friend, David Ferrie. Judyth accidentally learned about the clandestine side of the project before Ochsner, who was out of town, was able to steer her to the legitimate side. She then became a willing participant in the project. At the same time, Oswald and Judyth began to fall in love. Neither had a happy marriage (Judyth was recently married to a man who promptly left her alone in New Orleans,and who in other ways neglected her). Oswald became linked to the project, partly to be close to Judyth.

Judyth Baker met such well-known persons as Guy Bannister and Jack Ruby, as well as several others, for whom she has provided documentation, who are new in the case, including a former Customs officer from Miami who expedited Oswald's passport on 25th June, 1963. Oswald, who had defected to the Soviet Union and then was able to return without a problem to the United States at the height of the Cold War, obtained his new passport in only 24 hours.

The research into the biological weapon was hidden by using two or more secret mini-labs which were set up when Ochsner's Clinic made a massive move into new facilities in March, 1963. Equipment, animals, etc. were 'misplaced' during the move, the second-largest in the history of New Orleans. The basic project was set up March 23, 1962, using conventional facilities, which then expanded out of the loop for its final phases.

Lee Harvey Oswald learned how to handle the materials safely and keep them alive. He volunteered to courier the materials to Mexico City, where a medical student, doctor or intern was scheduled to take the materials to Cuba. Oswald made frantic efforts to get the materials, which had a short shelf-life, into Cuba himself when his contacts failed to appear. The project, in fact, had been called off because of Hurricane Flora, which devastated Cuba at this time. Oswald was ordered to Dallas: his "desire to go to Cuba" was never mentioned again by him. His transit visa to go to Cuba was approved in mid-October, but by then, Oswald had no more need to go to Cuba: he never used the approved visa, which arrived too late to be of any use in saving the biological materials.

Judyth Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald planned to divorce and marry in Mexico after he had done all he could to help thwart the plans of an assassination ring, which he had volunteered to investigate. He believed he would have the help of the CIA to escape after providing information, but instead, due to his Pro-Castro activities in New Orleans, which had been under the handling of Guy Bannister (in order to identify Pro-Castroites in New Orleans), Oswald became the perfect patsy, even though he was on record as having admired John F. Kennedy.

According to Judyth, Oswald volunteered to continue to penetrate the ring, even when he realized his life was in danger. Oswald could only speculate on who organized the conspiracy. He was aware that Mafia, Texas oil moguls, and conservative racists put up money to finance an assassination ring that seemed to include a wide variety of planners and participants. He was kept from learning the identities of the leaders, but expressed opinions that Carlos Marcello (godfather of New Orleans and Dallas) and his Mafia friends in Chicago and Miami, along with anti-Castroites and elements of the Secret Service and CIA, were well able to assassinate Kennedy, if those at the highest levels in government cooperated to allow the assassination to take place for their benefit. Oswald told Judyth he would do what he could to try to get the mission aborted, and that he had others who were going to help him to abort the assassination.

After the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, Judyth Baker received a phone-call from David Ferrie warning her that she would be killed if she told anyone about her knowledge of these events.

Posted by: JEP Aug 31 2004, 05:35 AM

Angleton mopping up for Oak Ridge and himself

Winston Scott was the CIA's station chief in Mexico. Scott retired in 1969 and wrote a memoir about his time in the FBI, OSS and the CIA. He completed the manuscript, It Came To Late, and made plans to discuss the contents of the book with CIA director, Richard Helms, in Washington on 30th April, 1971. Four days before the agreed meeting Scott died of a heart attack.

Michael Scott told Dick Russell that James Angleton took away his father's manuscript. Angleton also confiscated three large cartons of files including a tape-recording of the voice of Lee Harvey Oswald. Michael Scott was also told by a CIA source that his father had not died from natural causes. Scott eventually got his father's manuscript back from the CIA. However, 150 pages were missing. Chapters 13 to 16 were deleted in their entirety. In fact, everything about his life after 1947 had been removed on grounds of national security.

Posted by: Survivalist Sep 1 2004, 06:56 AM
Hi JP and all,

National Security sickens me. Anything and ANYBODY can be labeled "National Security" and simply disappear without any obligation of response by our gov.

Thanks to the PA I & II.
However, we were a POLICE state long before 911. 911 only made it officially accepted.
I'm sure you're aware of the overtime salary laws that went into effect.
Europe works less hours on a work week, have better health coverage and education than we. Yet, we are oppressed further, giving in to the illusion of fear and yielding with no resistance to our oppressors. Our healthcare system is based on USERY as is our 'out of control' government.

People like you, me and the rest contribute our most valued possession, TIME to edify the searching public. It's sad about the state of the masses, isn't it?

By design:

We cannot do anything against the machine because of the drugged state of the masses, dependent on media (lies) and government.

All the proof one needs; Dependent on government is shown through being told we should be in FEAR and we should give more away to NOT be in FEAR. However, although we give more away NOT to be in FEAR, we are told we should STILL be in FEAR so our government can brutally exploit the rest of the world and we will accept it because of the FEAR we're told to be in. National Security alerts reminds me of The Three Stooges and their spoofs on WWII, Hilter, and that hilarious MAP that they always pointed to. What a joke this life turned out to be. LMAO!

We will do what we can do bring changes. Believe it or not, it will be enough. There will be a great leveler of the playing field to come, and it has been on course for along time. 90% of the (raw materials) masses will get another start in the LOOP. The other 10% will choose differently. There are people who know how to bring down the machine in a minute, by directing and guiding objects from space and beyond through INTENT. Those people know that is the only way. The machine is too powerful for the drugged masses and any hope of rebellion is a wasted hope. All is infinity and will not be lost. (the ONE law) I'm helping to create a quicker, smaller Delta t of flash-to-bang on what is inevitable. I'm not the only one.

Looking at this existence of this planet and it's inhabitants being consumed as raw materials as driven me to the point of UNINHIBITED INTENT wielded for ONE purpose. A cleansing. The only way to end this reign of terror. My intent is so strong (GS controlled) that my changing states (death) will not alter what will be. I envision you of many, who know the same evils adjust your scopes and intents to concentrate on the upcoming cleansing, the only way to beat this all consuming machine.

I'm ready for another life, different than what we now experience, and I'm willing to act upon it in the most powerful way possible, INTENT of GS. Join me. Let's clean up this planet. LOL!

Posted by: JEP Sep 1 2004, 02:10 PM
Hi Surv,

I agree, the national security business these days, really since its inception, is more like a satanic workshop than anything for the good of the American people.

Clean it up is the plan, and to do that; educate and inform the public is one of the pave stones. Talk about, pass along, and put these issues before the public.

We don't need thugs like Cheney and Bush in the White House making KBR-Halliburton all the more richer because of their intentional incompetence toward designing an end plan on Iraq. End-plan never occured, so endless profits for the Cheney racketeers.

These crooks have become so embolden at pulling the wool over the eyes of the generally stupid American public, that it is now their total platform. Their pavestones are the GOP/Evangelics that don't know up from down anymore.


Posted by: JEP Sep 3 2004, 12:06 AM
Hi All,

M Ruppert is right on target with this one:

It is the ORNL/FEMA plan for invitation of 911.


Posted by: Guest Sep 3 2004, 07:24 AM
Thanks, JEP, and lest we forget:

Thanks to Sibel Edwards for taking a courageous stand for this country. Now, which of us really didn´t "know" this in our hearts? Exerpts from Sibel´s letter:

Open Letter To Thomas Kean
- Chairman Of The 9/11 Commission -
From FBI Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds

August 1, 2004

"Despite your FULL AWARENESS and understanding of certain criminal conduct that connects to certain terrorist related activities, committed by certain U.S. OFFICIALS and HIGH-LEVEL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES, you have not proposed criminal investigations into this conduct, although under the laws of this country you are required to do so." (Emphasis mine)

"As you are FULLY AWARE, even FBI OFFICIALS ´CONFIRMED ALL MY ALLEGATIONS and denied none´ during their unclassified meetings with the Senate Judiciary staff over two years ago. However, neither your commission´s hearings, nor your commission´s five hundred sixty seven-page report, nor your recommendations include these serious issues, major incidents, and systemic problems." (Emphasis mine)

567 pages of whitewash. VOTE OUT CONGRESS!!!


Posted by: Mark Sep 3 2004, 12:37 PM
From JEPs link on Ruppert.

Ruppert Names Cheney Prime Suspect In 911 Mass Murders

"I will name Richard Cheney as the prime suspect in the mass murders of 9/11 and will establish that, not only was he a planner in the attacks, but also that on the day of the attacks he was running a completely separate Command, Control and Communications system which was superceding any orders being issued by the NMCC [National Military Command Center], or the White House Situation Room." -- Michael Ruppert

Text of Michael Ruppert's Speech at the Commonwealth Club Last Night by repost Wednesday, Sep. 01, 2004 at 9:34 AM.

The PDF file of the speech is attached, and is downloadable at

(if you don't have a PDF file reader, you can download a free reader from for Macintosh or Windows operating systems).

The speech is long, but a must read for anyone interested in the future of the United States, peak oil, 9/11, the 2004 election, and related topics. There are very few journalists digging up credible new information about 9/11,but this speech -- a teaser for Ruppert's upcoming book -- is full of critical information that should be on the front page of every newspaper on the planet. It would be difficult to exaggerate the importance of this information.

Announcing the release of Michael C. Ruppert's new book

CROSSING THE RUBICON: The Decline of the
American Empire at the Endof the Age of Oil"

By Michael C. Ruppert
foreword by Catherine Austin Fitts
(New Society Publishers)

Crossing the Rubicon: the Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil by Michael C. Ruppert is a detective story that gets to the innermost core of the 9/11 attacks. It places 9/11 at the center of a desperate new America, created by specific, named individuals in preparation for Peak Oil: an economic crisis like nothing the world has ever seen.

The attacks of September 11th, 2001 were accomplished through an amazing orchestration of logistics and personnel. Crossing the Rubicon discovers and identifies the key suspects and persons of interest -- finding some of them in the highest echelons of American government -- by showing how they acted in concert to guarantee that the attacks occurred and produced the desired result.

In describing the contents of the book he has spent two and a half years researching and writing Ruppert said:

"In my new book I will be making several key points:

1. I will name Richard Cheney as the prime suspect in the mass murders of 9/11 and will establish that, not only was he a planner in the attacks, but also that on the day of the attacks he was running a completely separate Command, Control and Communications system which was superceding any orders being issued by the NMCC [National Military Command Center], or the White House Situation Room.

2. I will establish conclusively that in May of 2001, by presidential order, Richard Cheney was put in direct command and control of all wargame and field exercise training and scheduling through several agencies, especially FEMA. This also extended to all of the conflicting and overlapping NORAD drills on that day.

3. I will also demonstrate that the TRIPOD II exercise being set up on Sept. 10th in Manhattan was directly connected to Cheney's role.

4. I will also prove conclusively that a number of public officials, at the national and New York City levels, including then Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, were aware that Flight 175 was en route to lower Manhattan for 20 minutes and did nothing to order the evacuation of or warn the occupants of the South Tower. One military officer was forced to leave his post in the middle of the attacks and place a private call to his brother -- who worked at the WTC -- warning him to get out. That was because no other part of the system was taking action.

5. I will also show that the Israeli and British governments acted as partners with the highest levels of the American government to help in the preparation and, very possibly, the actual execution of the attacks."

"There is more reason to be afraid of not facing the evidence in this book than of facing what is in it."

© 2000-2004 San Francisco Bay Area Independent Media Center. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by the SF Bay Area IMC.


It would be really nice to see this information hit the mainstream news media.

All of these crooks need to be brought to justice.

It's painfully obvious that there are no checks and balances in US govt anymore.

The 9/11 Commissions findings were as worthless as the Warren Commission.

The real questions of 9/11 were never addressed or answered.

1. Why did NORAD stand down and why was America unprotected that day?

In 1999, when Payne Stewarts plane went off course, jets were immediately dispatched as standard procedure to get a looksee of the cockpit.
But not on 9/11.

2. Why did Bush continue reading a book to second graders while he knew America was under attack? How could he know he was safe there?

3. How did the towers implode so neatly?

They fell just like Tower no 7 that was "pulled" by Larry Silverstein later that afternoon on 9/11. Larry had just leased the towers months prior to 9/11, and they were to undergo massive asbestos renovation and he had them heavily insured for a tidy profit.

4. What really hit the Pentagon?

5. Why was the hole so small and yet the projectile went through at least 4 or 5 reinforced walls?

6. Were was the wreckage of the plane?

The wings would have left lots of debris and there seems to be no damage to the building from any large aircraft.

(Other than that movie prop piece placed on the lawn for a photo opt, I have never any plane wreckage in any photos)

7. Where are all of the other surveilance video tapes that the FBI took possession of on 9/11 from surrounding businesses around the Pentagon?

We are told about Cell Phone calls made from the airplanes when it's been demonstrated it was impossible at the time.

One phone call should make you see the staged play for what it is.

"Hi mom, this is Mark Bingham" --- Who speaks to their mom on the phone and says their first and last name?

That right there is a blatant clue that most won't see unless they really think about it.

8. Why are at least 8 of the hijackers still alive?

Why were non of the alleged hijackers videotaped by airport security cameras on 9/11 boarding the planes?

9. Why are non of the hijackers names on any flight lists?

10. How could the news media have names and photos of 19 men so fast after 9/11 unless it was already known who the blame was going to be placed on?

In situations such as these, ask yourself....

"Who benefits?"

Who is profiting from the lies and cover-ups of 9/11 and the JFK assassination?

Posted by: JEP Sep 3 2004, 06:26 PM
Howdy All,

There are some photos of the engine rotors from the Pentagon Crash on a lot of servers. I think there is some suppression going on and it is about how deeply these jet engine rotors cut into all the Pentagon's reinforced concrete walls.

The jet rotors cut almost into the last inner ring. And with that another vulnerability shows up. It means that a jet plane engine running at full power hitting a reinforced concrete cuts it like a cookie cutter. And that means reactor containments are not safe, and especially not the spent fuel ponds.

I do think all this noise is them suppressing the power of the jet planes is about not admitting this other problem. So, all the damage photos are being taken down in the US, but there are some servers in other countries that still carry them, particularly the rotor photos and the 10 Ft hole thru the last wall.

I do think that playing up this where is the plane stuff too much will only serve to detract from Mike Ruppets got em by the balls analysis. That is the real meat on 911, the crooks at the top inviting this attack. This DJ that made this new DVD on finding the jet plane holes might be a real Cheney helper.


Posted by: Survivalist Sep 4 2004, 02:55 PM
Hi JP,

DAMN!.........Oak ridge High School came to Bradley, at Bear Field, and had a bear roast. They beat us 70 - 0. DAMN!............

I'd like to know, what kinda damn MONSTERS are they farming in the "hollow of insanity"? Their talent is highly suspect of genetic tamepring (LOL!).

Posted by: Mark Sep 4 2004, 09:39 PM
JP, I checked out your link, thanks.

It had that photo of what I called a movie prop piece of plane wreckage posted there, (it's the only identifiable - to me - plane wreckage photo evidence I have ever seen), as well as the holes punched thru the several walls and a video from the Pentagon security camera showing something that looks much smaller than a large airliner.

I still don't believe that a large passenger airplane struck the Pentagon.

But I see your point on the engines being the prime cause of the punchout holes.

Sounds plausible if that's what struck the Pentagon, but I tell ya, the video clip and the evidence of damage on the exterior wall of the Pentagon, to ME, does not look like a large airliner was there that day.

LMAO @ Surv Re: Genetic tempering - like...duh!!! LOLOL

Posted by: JEP Sep 5 2004, 05:54 PM
Hi Surv,

Oak Ridge is the highest paid school system in the state of Tennessee. This because DOE helps foot the bill.

They also get the very best football coaches. Money talks.



Posted by: JEP Sep 5 2004, 06:12 PM
Hi Pupp,

Look at the security camera video clip carefully and you can see a huge chunk of something black fly up in the air and go over the Pentagon roof----looks like a rubber fuel tank bladder. Also, when the plane accordianed into the real solid wall it spattered off in little bits back perhaps 2,000 Ft from the wall and onto the grass. One of the still photos shows some of this.

Lots of the deflected projectile energy went right into the ground beside the building. And lots of the up close photos get into too much hamburger and little pieces of humans. So, not many detail photos made it into the public.

Look at the incoming street lamp damage---no little missile is that wide.

Look at the fireball---don't think an HX missle can deliver that----but 5,000 gals of JP-8 can.

A missle hit using HX would blow a single large hole in the wall and not have much dept of penetration. Only the mass of two large jet engines would dig so deep into the Pentagons inner corridors. Those things likely kept up their thrust for the first 1/10 second of impact and they kept going with mass inertia also.

My vote is one 450 mph airliner---else someone stole a lot of missing people.

Did Ja see the latest Ruppert News blup?


Posted by: Mark Sep 5 2004, 08:44 PM
Hey JP, maybe this whole debate about the pentagon plane is more distraction and debunking material to hide the blatant fact that 9/11 was either an inside job or allowed to happen to furthur the agenda of the global elite.

What gets me is...

Why were other video recordings from surrounding businesses confiscated by the FBI on 9/11 that may have shown what hit the pentagon?

Lamp posts could have been toppled for effect - just like the movies.
(mere speculation on my part)

And yes, I know exactly what you are referring to in the piece of debris that flies up in the air, I wondered what that could be.

Posted by: JEP Sep 12 2004, 06:48 AM

One of the Rockefeller funded types speaking on religion:

Part of any analysis on religion should include factors on why some of the world's belief systems often get into crossing the line on sense and senseabilities to the point of causing huge wars, assassinations, and deaths of presidents.

One should easily see that some religion factors have caused problems down through all time, and also see that some religions don't speak to equality. Interestingly enough, in the times of the Knights of the Round table, equality was synomous with the symbolism of the round table where no one could assume the head of the table.

Perhaps we need to examine religions looking for excesses of square table methods.


Posted by: BJ1 Sep 12 2004, 07:08 AM
Can't help commenting on your remark, JP, "One should easily see that some religion factors have caused problems down through all time, and also see that some religions don't speak to equality." I might add "equality in anything"!

What I see, going down through the centuries, is that the religious leaders got into bed with the politicos of the time for a share of power. Today, most large churches form corporations, which own the land and buildings lock, stock, and barrell, and have become today's wealthy land owners, with great investments in everything from soup to widgets. Wars have served them well and have been part and parcel of keeping their flocks in poverty. This is a cynical view, but until someone proves otherwise, I'll keep it.


Posted by: JEP Sep 16 2004, 03:18 PM
Hi BJ,

BJ writes:
"What I see, going down through the centuries, is that the religious leaders got into bed with the politicos of the time for a share of power. Today, most large churches form corporations, which own the land and buildings lock, stock, and barrell, and have become today's wealthy land owners, with great investments in everything from soup to widgets. Wars have served them well and have been part and parcel of keeping their flocks in poverty."

JP reply:

Yes, I agree. The study of Rome and the Pope being just as great a realization toward this as the stories of the Pharisee seeking power and control.

Despite being kept penniless, some artists managed to make their statements and MichelAngelo, MA, did some good ones on the Popes of his time. It is how he gained such respect in the Mason's order. Some of the Popes were more tyrants than men of God, they killed those that did not see things in their authority.

The young MA was rather unhappy about the Pope commanding him into painting the Sistine's ceiling, but his dual meaning for "The Creation" got a few points in for his dissention. He could not outwardly make statements, so the dual meanings worked well. Scultpers were not mean't to be spackled with paint and cramped into tight work positions for years.

He seems to have gotten a little more rebelous with age. His crowning achievement has to be his statue of Moses to be used on the Pope's tomb he did not appreciate. MA claimed lightning bolts were the motivation, but in the true styles of hidden meanings in sculpters works, it is rather clear that Moses has horns and is more Satan than God's venue. And this Pope projected as more Satan than emisary of God.

MA gets into these dualities in a later painting on the Sistine wall were entwined snakes represent the battle of good and evil. Man has to sort out which of these competing symbols is the right choice.

Just like we have to sort the good and bad from the latest set of crusades of ill based religions from the latest proclaimed pontifical messenger of God named Bush.

Me thinks one of the horns of revelations just took place.


Posted by: JEP Sep 16 2004, 03:56 PM

Modern man should not be lead to address his fears by clinging to an ill-born faith as a child to a Teddy Bear, else this inborn fear shall steal his health and longevity. Modern man should bear witness to the simple fact that there is no fear, but fear itself. And no evil, but that composed of greed for money and power over man by man. Fear is and always has been the product of untruths and modern man should be closer to the simple givens of science, the natural order of nature, and the derivations of God thereof. This is the pathway for all men being delivered from evil. The ultimate symbolism of divinity is a child not corrupted by these trappings.

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 16 2004, 05:57 PM
JEP: "Perhaps we need to examine religions looking for excesses of square table methods."

Get a load of this, JP. This is only the tip of the iceberg:

"In this article we will attempt first time to unveil the truth of Kenneth Copeland's Masonic membership.As Kenneth is a closet, secret Freemason who does not want anyone to know this truth, it will be a involving task that needs to look deeply into any specific clues. ...........

'Freemasonry is a peculiar system of Morality, veiled in Allegory, and illustrated by Symbols.' This is taken directly from the second degree initiation and evidence that it is still currently used was proven to me recently when I attended a Masonic open day and heard that same description. The application of this quote in regards to Copeland will be discussed below.

Kenneth Copeland started his ministry under Oral Roberts 33rd Degree [also a case such as Copeland's based on symbols used by Oral Robertrs] Freemason as a pilot. ................

Kenneth Copeland chants the words "I AM" which is a Masonic initiation term. And I say this with all respect, so that it don't upset you too bad. But I say it anyway: When I read in the Bible where He says, "I AM I just smile and say, Yes, I AM, too."

Believers Voice of Victory broadcast July 9 1987

During the ceremonies of the Masonic ritual for the Royal Arch degree, the candidate is asked, "Brother Inspector, what are you?" and he replies, "I AM THAT I AM".

When Jesus told the jews before Abraham was "I AM" he was claiming to be the God of Moses who went by that name. This is why they tried to kill him immediately. Kenneth is claiming to be a God. 33rd Degree [assumed from his teachings and his affiliates, as far as we know] Freemason Robert Schuller also endorses his followers to chant "I AM". The most effective mantras employ the "sound". You can get the feel of it by repeating the words, "I am, I am" many times over....

Benny Hinn whom I suspect is a Freemason, also tells Christians to chant"I AM". Don't tell me you have Jesus. You are everything He was and everything He is and ever shall be..... Don't say, 'I have.' Say "I AM, I AM, I AM, I AM, I AM". (Our Position in Christ #2-The Word Made Flesh audiotape Side 2 1991)

Kenneth Copeland has stated that Jehovah means Half Male/ Half Female and that God is as much female as he is male. He amplifies this strange teaching by also saying that Adam was originally half male and half female.

According to the book "The Secret Teachings Of Freemasonry" by Gordon Mohr this is exactly what the Masonic Lodge teaches :-( on pages 107-108)

The dual principle of and female is represented by the square and compass. The compass represents OSIRIS, the male god of the Egyptians, while the is the symbol representing ISIS, the female goddess of Egypt - both are sexual symbols. Taken from: Ragon's Cours. Philosophique page 102

Compare what Freemason-Mormon Brigham Young stated Adam is our father and our God with Copeland's quote: Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh.

More symbols of Freemasonry are incorporated into Copeland's 'Shout' magazine for kids. Around Kenneth's neck is an eagle above an inverted triangle. I have seen this symbol on a Masonic certificate before. The female [Copeland's daughter] has an inverted 5 pointed star placed on her shirt. This symbol represents the 'Order of the Eastern Star' which is a Masonic order for women! Is this a coincidence? Now Copeland has placed the main symbols of Masonry and the Eastern Star on his covers.

When 33rd Degree Freemason Robert Schuller wanted to express his secret membership in the Lodge he used the 33rd Degree symbol of a double headed eagle and sent it out to many people without them realizing what he was declaring to his Masonic brothers worldwide. 33rd Degree Freemason Oral Roberts used the inverted triangle in his University logo which has a hidden Masonic design to it.

Full article:

The other day on a short-lived GLP thread, there was an article about Paul Crouch of TBN fame. His MALE lover is trying to sue him. He had been paid $450,000 for the rights to the book he was about to have published, but wants $10M more. Crouch was willing to settle for $1M and there it rests. That's $1M out of the wealth Crouch has accumulated with the money contributed by the "faithful". What a scam.

Posted by: JEP Sep 17 2004, 02:26 AM

De-Classified Document Admits Oswald Was CIA

Posted by: JEP Sep 17 2004, 02:28 AM

Government Insider Says Bush
Authorized 911 Attacks
From Thomas Buyea

Posted by: JEP Sep 17 2004, 05:42 PM




The photo at right shows Marina Oswald, Lee's Russian wife, to the left, and Judyth Vary (me) who posed as Marina Oswald, to the right. Another photo is available at

There are plenty of lies out there about Lee Oswald. And about me. To obtain accurate information about me (Judyth Vary Baker), please visit Judyth's website shown just above.

At that website, as well as at this one, new information will be added from time to time as I am able to update it. Lee Harvey Oswald was an innocent man who was a government intelligence agent. He faithfully carried out assignments such as entering the USSR and pretending to be Pro-Castro. I have proof that he was posing this way in order to be useful to our government during the Cold War. For his loyalty and courage, Lee Oswald was shot down in cold blood by a Mafia bagman, Jack Ruby, who was forced to do this deed to protect his family and loved ones. I knew both of them personally.

My story -- and Lee's -- IS told accurately by Nigel Turner, who spent hundreds of hours researching and condensing my testimony. My evidence is complex, but useful to researchers. I saved many items from my experiences in 1963. My witnesses have also been located. They are being protected after one of them was threatened and coerced.

I lost my job for speaking out. I was hounded, harrassed.. But I will never waver, even though I have had to move to a foreign country where I have been kindly treated. Don't believe the fancy internet websites with their claims to having met me or having seen the evidence.

The evidence exists. Audiotapes and films of living witnesses support what I say, and those who personally get to know me have often visited, spending many hours viewing the evidence which I carefully kept from 1963. This evidence can be seen by appointment only to protect it.

The story THE LOVE AFFAIR depicts the loving relationship that developed between me and Lee. Both of us were unhappy with our mates, and Lee could not help noticing that I resembled his wife, Marina. I also spoke a little Russian.

We played chess together, read the same kind of books, enjoyed classical music, loved animals and children -- we just had everything going for us but time.

THE LOVE AFFAIR can be seen in Nigel Turner's November 2003 documentary THE MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY, THE FINAL CHAPTER, episode 8.

Turner's courageous series had documented all the serious theories about the Kennedy assassination, and represent, as he told me himself, over 700 personal interviews over a period of many years. Nigel Turner has interviewed every important living witness, to my knowledge, and presented their stories faithfully and without prejudice. I certainly can verify that is what he did for me!

My story has been disfigured by disinformation artist who ONLY believe the WARREN COMMISSION VERSION and attacked me before they could even spell my name correctly. WHY? When I asked them to correct their lies and distortions, such as saying I claimed I owned Lee's SHOWER SHOES (what in the heck are SHOWER SHOES?), they ignored my attempts to correct their misrepresentations. WHY?

I invite anyone who has ANY questions to write to me!

Our nation will heal and our people will have more freedom if we have the truth. It has not been easy to speak out. Think of it, if I had said Lee Osewald was a guilty man, I would have been rich, famous, wined and dined. But I stand for the truth. Lee Harvey Oswald was an innocent man. I was in contact with him, as his lover, up until only 37 1/2 hours before the assassination of Kennedy. He had penetrated the assassination ring, bravely stood his ground, and sent information to the FBI to the very last. But J. Edgar Hoover didn't want Kennedy to live. JFK was going to force him to retire. Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson, who was Hoover's next-door neighbor, literally, for years in Washington, made Hoover Director of the FBI for life when he came into office after JFK was murdered.

Lee Oswald was shot down so he couldn't talk. Remember, those who attack me blame an innocent man and say he, alone, killed Kennedy. But Lee Oswald DENIED shooting ANYONE. He is the ONLY accused asssassin who ever denied that he shot anybody. He never made a political statement or admitted to attacking a President. I have outlived Lee now by many years. It is his turn for justice. Don't let the truth die.

Write to me at

I make NO money from the documentary series. I urge you to order it from either them or from

My book will be released sometime in 2004. Spread the word: the case CAN be solved. Watch THE FINAL CHAPTER of Nigel Turner's The Men Who Killed Kennedy, and see if you don't agree!

Thank you very much,

Judyth Vary Baker

p.s. I make my living as an artist. If you are interested in commissioning an oil painting, I specialize in New Orleans scenes, abstract art, landscapes, and mythological creatures. My series called PICATSSOs feature modern art paintings with cats in them.

Remember, if you have any questions, please write! My goal is to exonerate an innocent man. It's time that Lee Harvey Oswald was recognized as the loyal patriot he actually was. His wife, children and grandchildren need to know that this man was a hero. I stand as a witness to that fact.


Posted by: JEP Sep 19 2004, 10:10 AM
Hello All,

All the little pieces should be falling into place for many of you.

In the early 60's, Oak Ridge was involved in the cancer issues from the beginning, and places called ORINS were into cancer studies using facilties called METBI and LETBI. These were total body radiation exposure cells funded by USAEC and NASA. Lots of these type studies were reveiled by the DOE Hazel O'leary Human Radiation Experiments declassifications.


Oak Ridge supplied materials to persons, like Judyth Baker, who were working on secretive cancer studies in Lousiana and the use of cancer as a bioweapon of choice for covert killings for the CIA.

Oswald was often the courier to Oak Ridge to pick up information and materials and the courier to Mexico City for the pipeline of the cancer bioweapon intended for Castro.

Later, when the shit hit the fan on the Lousiana stuff and Jim Garrison got into a hard look at what happened---lots of that data and people involved were moved to California. There Ronald Reagon helped to stop things by refusing extradition of the people involved and the information connected to the Castro hit using cancer methods.


Posted by: Mark Sep 19 2004, 03:14 PM
Hey JP, thanks for the ongoing investigative posting.

I don't recall reading about Judyth Baker before.

I lost my job for speaking out. I was hounded, harrassed.. But I will never waver

I can relate to that!


Posted by: JEP Sep 19 2004, 05:19 PM
Hi Pupp,

Judyth Baker worked the New Orleans cancer project, and was close to Oswald as Marina moved back to Dallas. Basically, she is the other woman and Oswald's girlfriend in New Orleans.

Judyth is one of the keys to understanding the whole situation. She had to move out of the US to avoid some of the attacks. She has been in Holland running a museum on Oswald.

She is intending on publishing this book on the topic and the crooks are trying to terrorise her not to do it.

She knows lots of the key features on Oak Ridge's involvement in the cancer project to off Castro. She knows about the cancer viruses like SV-40 and that things like radiation, HF, and toxic metals activate these viruses.

She has Oak Ridge by the friggin Balls. The biggest thing Oak Ridge wants to cover up is this toxic activation of cancers and other illnesses.

She is right on top of the whole view of what went down. She knows Oak Ridge supplied the New Orleans operation with materials and information.

Interesting, before she was working in New Orleans she was working at Univ. of Fla. on cancer cell isotopic tracer research and HF studies. This appears what got them interesting in helping on the Castro project.

She should be able to blow this JFK cover up wide open with this book. The sooner she gets it on the public's table the safer she is going to be.


Posted by: JEP Sep 20 2004, 02:47 AM

We have done some discussions on icons from religion and gotten into the topic of Michangelo, who was quite the intelligent rebel around the Popes of Rome. He lived in the time of Martin-Luther, the nail into the church door, and the revolt against the Pope over selling indulgences and the like.

MA's symbology likely even contributed to these insurrections.

MA, the sculpter, painted the Sistine Ceiling at the demand of Pope Julius II, and he also was doing his tomb. Part of the tomb design was a statue of Moses. The statue is show here:

user posted image

MA used the idea that Moses face shown with rays of light to sell the Popes on the idea of Horns sticking out of Moses' head. Symbolically, this is one of the marks of the beast, and pertains to the fakery of some of the ideas expressed by Moses. MA got back at Julius II for that 4 years of commanded art work in the Sistine.

MA associated the icon for Satin connected with Moses and a Pope. He was highly into dual meanings and this is one of the most legendary scuptures of all time that includes the sculpter's typical hidden meanings.


Posted by: JEP Sep 20 2004, 03:08 PM
Hi All,

It appears we have a case of the missing DVD's, as parts 7.8.9 of the History Channel's, "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" is missing.

If anyone has a clue as to where to get these last three, I'd like to hear it.

Baker has the main keys to the entire mess. She knows about SV-40 and the other carcinogenic monkey viruses that half the country was infected with via polio vaccines. SV-40 was part of their cancer formula, as was a toxic activator that shut down the immune system. The SV-40 is connected to lung cancers like the one Ruby seems to have died from.

The big picture here is half the country was infected with SV-40 via vaccines and these viruses are activated via radiation, HF, and toxic metals effects on the immune system.

And the big picture is that fluoridation controls the general lifespan in the US, the cancer rates, the excess illnesses; just as the HIV infections and the high fluorides in the African Rift zone control the lives there.


To the publisher who asked me to make contact:

You are welcome to write. My email address, as you see, is in The Netherlands
(note the 'nl' in the email address). I'm the genuine Judyth Vary Baker.

There are people out there who have written absurd things about me. Posing as
me. Et cetera. That's to be expected when one speaks out on a controversial

I will try to courteously and promptly reply.
Thank you for your interest. Remember what Lee Oswald said to his brother,
"Don't believe the so-called evidence" -- I urge you not to believe the twisted
website info that has sprung up about me, most of it authored by Marquette
University pedant John McAdams.

McAdams can't get the first sentence right. According to him, I was born in
Bradenton Florida, and married á petroleum engineer. Actually, I was born in
Indiana. My husband was finishing a degree in English when we married. Nobody
would have made an hour-long TV documentary of THE LOVE AFFAIR if I did not have
evidence and witnesses. However, THE LOVE AFFAIR is almost impossible to buy
now, and its companion documentary, THE GUILTY MEN has been banned. All three
documentaries in the Men Who Killed Kennedy series 7-8-9 have been cancelled ,
viz Feb. 14 listings -- canceled.

The rights have been sold to the pro-Johnson cartel to stop these films from
ever being shown again. Three yes-men who admire President Johnson (and who
could lose their jobs if they bucked the system) have been selected as a panel
to 'study'the documentaries. They will tell everybody that the documentaries
were biased.

I urge anyone who has copies of these documentaries to share them with
others. The reason they were purchased to keep them from being shown to the people
of America is because they reveal who really killed President Kennedy, and the
innocence of Lee Oswald.

The truth is being quashed,my reputation has been bashed, and silly or nasty
things are being written about me as gospel truth, all in the name of hiding
the truth from you, the people, who deserve to know. I have given up
everything, and yes, I am now very poor. I gave up everything so that the truth would be
known. Before the film was made, I was teaching in an Academy. I was fired
when an FBI employee complained.

If you write, I WILL respond, with the grace of God. My health is not very
good, nor eyesight, so please forgive any typos.

I thank you for your attention and urge you to locate these films, copy them,
send them around. No, I received no money for the documentary. It was a labor
of love.

Thanks once again for your attention and interest. God bless my country.


Judyth Vary Baker

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 21 2004, 06:24 PM
Concerning the death of JFK:

The President´s brain was removed and his body buried without it ... Dr. Cyril Wecht, chief medical examiner of Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, past president of the American Academy of Forensic Scientists, and a professor of pathology and law, received permission from the Kennedy family in 1972 to view the autopsy materials (at the National Archives) ... When he routinely asked to see the brain, Wecht was told it was missing, along with the microscopic slides of the brain. Marion Johnson, curator of the Warren Commission´s material at the Archives said, "The brain´s not here. We don´t know what happened to it." (Los Angeles Free Press, Special Report No. I, pg. 16)

If and when the brain is recovered, the entire process will have been completed under the term "euresis." ...

From PuPP's post, President Lincoln's Assassination, August 10, 2004

I learned from the History Channel that the doctors caused Lincolns early death (he probably would have died anyway or been a vegetable, but who knows for sure) by probing first with their fingers into his skull for the bullet and then using a metal probing tool, basically scrambling his brains.


Note: There were many strange coincidences surrounding the deaths of these two presidents. This is just one more, as it involved both of their brains having been surgically tampered with.


Posted by: BJ1 Sep 21 2004, 06:29 PM
PuPP, you should maybe get rid of that second repeat post re: missing JFK brain. I didn't think the first posted, so submitted the second.


Posted by: JEP Sep 22 2004, 08:03 AM
Hi All,

Judyth Baker says ORINS folks had assisted her on the Castro cancer weapon and Oak Ridge was suppling materials to them.

One must keep in mind that the petro and chemical companies of Lousiana is known as cancer alley these days. In the 60s, the chemical and oil companies would have been supplying money to do cancer experiments on problems their emissions were essentially causing.

So, we see things like this well connected Alton Ochsner fellow that recruited Judyth Baker being tied to persons like oil billionaire Clint Murchison in Dallas.

All the industry cancer folks would be networking and this does show up in an alliance set up by Oak Ridge's Pollard and his ORINS group. Oak Ridge radiation effects and nuclear testing caused huge problems with cancer causation, so does oil and chemical releases. Particularly, fluoride / HF.

One can see that Lousiana was highly represented in ORINS and these associations would be of help to Baker, Ochsner, and the kill Castro with cancer operation----which Oswald was a part.


The original dozen ORINS collaborators Ref:

The charter members of ORAU, then known as the Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies (ORINS) were:

Alabama Polytechnic Institute (now Auburn University)
Catholic University of America
Duke University
Emory University
Georgia School of Technology (now Georgia Institute of Technology)
Louisiana State University
Tulane University of Louisiana (now Tulane University)
University of Alabama
University of Kentucky
University of North Carolina
University of Tennessee
University of Texas (now University of Texas at Arlington and University of Texas at Austin)
University of Virginia
Vanderbilt University

Posted by: JEP Sep 25 2004, 07:24 PM
Hi Folks,

I have been chatting with Judyth Baker on email of late and getting into the details of the big off Castro with cancer project.

Judyth Baker is still around and over in Holland to avoid harassment that seems to keep happening over here toward her publishing her tell all book.

I have found her to be on the level and she has a boat load of documentation.

She was trained by two ORINS associated doctors named Dr. Shively and Dr. Roggenkamp, who were part of Manitee Hospital around Bradenton Florida. Every big ORINS meeting that occured with these two included a CIA person named Brown.

The idea of a mutated SV-40 super cancer work began with Dr. Alton Ochsner's interest in lung cancers/smoking and vaccine contamination. Alton Ochsner was well connected with the CIA and other DC health groups. Alton Ochsner got huge donations from the Texas oil lot in Dallas, particularly from Clint Murchison.

That is how the whole thing started. A super version of the SV-40 or a more virulent mutated version was selected by using radiactive tracers and looking at immune system impacts.

Then the highly virulent version was put in mice, grown, and tumors collected and reduced to cell free filtrates loaded with the super cancer virus. This was taken down to Mexico City and left at a dead drop for someone to pick up. The pick up failed due to a hurricane problem.

Here is one of the ORINS documents listing meeting attendees. Note the one associted with Baker and the CIA presence.


user posted image

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 26 2004, 05:31 AM
Good morning, JEP! Thanks for all of your posts on this work of exposing the conspiratorial thugs who hold and have held high position.

Your latest post, giving the list of M.D.s/CIA involvement in developing a fast-acting cancer, details the names and locations where this was carried out, 14 in all: AL, CA, D.C., FL, GA, IL, IN, KS, NC, NY, OH, PA, TN, and WV, eleven of them hospitals! I believe there are more that were included as time went on. Tx does not appear on this list, yet it has a big name in cancer research.

The information coming from Judith Baker is of much more importance than that given by LBJ's lover, Madelaine Duncan Brown, who could name only those that were in Dallas and close to the oil interests.

The problem I have with cancer "research" is that they already know the cause of the disease. According to the info you have furnished, we can know what the research is all about...not a cure, but an even more devastating form of the disease to be used on someone's hit list. Betcha bucks that there are victims of this research in those hospitals right now, probably that never had cancer in the first place, but believed the diagnosis and submitted to cancer therapy.

We know that all cancers are a fungus as noted in other threads, confirmed by doctors who know. What has been developed, then, is a highly lethal form of fungus that overwhelms the immune system before there is a chance for recovery.

Such evil!


Posted by: JEP Sep 27 2004, 04:21 AM
Hi All,

Many of you are aware of the issue of differing concepts for God and no doubt you have heard me speak to the issue of Jewish nationalism and perhaps even the
Pharisees and a people in perpetual opposition to the best interests of humanity.

This is probably one of the most important things to learn from the Biblical narratives. Jesus differed with the Pharisees. This problem is even greater today and is one of the major concepts provoking terrorism. Islam is more aligned with the Jesus concepts.

Today, the church going GOP can't seem to get the Jesus message up front. The GOP bought the Neo-Con line hook line and sinker. We, as a nation, have been suckered into going off on crusades for the Pharisee mindsets.

This piece below, written by a Jew, about the problems of Judism's flawed monotheism is right on the mark. Judism is nationalistic and the old first part of the bible narrative is to always be taken in high contrast as being less correct than the new last part, which are Jesus's objections to the Pharisees. Even Germans captured the problems long ago, when shortly afterwards Judism declaired war on Hitler.



Called "the most influential German anti-Semite before Hitler," Fritsch's
most influential book /Handbuch der Judenfrage/ 1896 (/Handbook of the Jewish
Question/) went through dozens of printings, and was taught in German schools
during the Nazi era. Most copies were destroyed after World War Two.

"Handbook" was translated into English in 1927 and titled /"The Riddle of the
Jew's Success"/ by F. Roderich-Stoltheim, a pen name. It is extremely rare;
original copies cost as much as $1000.

Fritsch does not fit the image of hatemonger foaming at the mouth. His book
impresses me as the work a civilized man with considerable spiritual
discernment. His central point is that Judaism does not deserve credit for monotheism
because the Jewish God is not universal.

"It is a fatal mistake of our theologians to regard the Jewish God as
identical with the Christian. On a closer examination, Jehovah is found to be the
exclusive God of Jewdom and not, at the same time, that of other men."

He cites many passages from the Old Testament to demonstrate that the
Covenant between Jews and their God "bears a hostile meaning for all non Jewish

For example, "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine
inheritance and the uttermost parts of the world for thy possession. Thou shalt break
them with a rod of iron..." (Psalms 2.8.9) Or "Thou wilt devour all nations
which the Lord thy God will give thee. Thou shalt have no mercy on them...(Moses
5.7.16) (p.55)

As a consequence, the attitude embodied in the Talmud, which is the Jewish
code of law, distinguishes one system of morality for Jews and another for
Gentiles who are regarded as cattle or swine. Fritsch cites many references to show
it is permitted to lie, cheat or steal from a Gentile. (pp. 57-65)

Fritsch concludes that "anti Semitism" is a natural reaction to these hostile
attitudes, which he claims are actually practised by many Jews. Since these
beliefs are kept secret from non-Jews, he says Judaism is a conspiracy against
non-Jews. Its aim is to fulfill the Covenant, and gain dominion over mankind
by controlling wealth.



Jews need to re-examine their relationship with Judaism. I cannot
overestimate the significance of the Jewish rejection of Christ. Christ represented a
universal God and a universal morality. His teaching represented the natural next
stage, which Jews should have embraced while retaining their racial

By rejecting Christ, the Pharisees placed the Jewish people in perpetual
opposition to the best interests of humanity, to the ultimate and inevitable path
of human spiritual evolution.

Posted by: Mark Sep 27 2004, 02:26 PM
the Talmud, which is the Jewish code of law, distinguishes one system of morality for Jews and another for Gentiles who are regarded as cattle or swine

Mooooo - Oink Oink

or should I say...

Baaa baaaa baaa like a good little sheople.

Thanks JEP for your continuing research.

Question, have you ever studied up on the Brahmins of India (the original aryans) and their connection to those who claim to be Jews (Khazars)?

Posted by: Mark Sep 27 2004, 05:11 PM
Here's some more info from JP's link above...


It should come as no surprise that the people who own and control the world have put their interests before the greater good of humanity.

For at least 400 years, Christian civilization has been under covert attack by a diabolical multi generational program now called the "new world order" or "globalization."

Essentially globalization represents the consolidation of absolute economic, political and cultural power in the hands of a cabal of super rich dynastic families (bankers and their vast corporate networks) headquartered in the City of London.

These families include the Rothschilds, Warburgs and other so-called Jews who have intermarried with Anglo American and European aristocracy.

This mirrors the relationship between the moneylenders and kings in the Middle Ages when the Jew shared the proceeds from his lucrative business with the king. The New World Order resurrects the feudal relationship between an aristocracy based on great wealth and a large serfdom.

These families have embraced Freemasonry, an occult secret society that worships Lucifer. The top rank of this cabal is called the "Illuminati."

The Illuminati uses "anti Semitism" to manipulate Jews and others. Jews figure prominently in Illuminati sponsored movements such as Communism, Zionism, Socialism, Liberalism, Feminism, and Neo Conservatism.

Most of these Jews are ambitious or idealistic dupes who think they are building a secular utopia based on "reason" and not a world police state straight out of George Orwell's "1984".

The Illuminati strategy is divide and rule, i.e. get their enemies to destroy each other. For example they set up Communism to attract opponents of private property. They set up Nazism for people who champion nation and race, and hate "Jewish" hegemony. Then they destroyed each other.

As long as Jews play a disproportionate role in the New World Order, some opposition will be expressed in terms of "anti Semitism". For example, this recently appeared in a book review on Amazon. "It isn't Jews dying in Iraq. Our boys are dying for their war on their enemies. Americans are just hostages. Our government and media is hostage to Israel First Americans. "

Christ taught that God is Love.

Love is the Master Plan.

Love thy neighbour.

Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.

Posted by: BJ1 Sep 28 2004, 05:07 PM
"The Illuminati strategy is divide and rule, i.e. get their enemies to destroy each other."

Jesus said, "Love your enemies. Do good to them that hate you."

Who are our enemies but those created by the Illuminati? The Germans, were called Krauts; the Japanese were called Japs or worse; the Russians were the Reds or Pinkos; the Jews became the Kykes; the American Indians the Redskins; the Italians were Waps (?) and Irish were called something else; colored people were called niggers; and have I left out any other of our "enemies" who were so degraded? If the word "filthy" were included, then so much the better. Now we have the term Raghead, Towelhead, or sandnigger given for the Iraqis!

Disgusting, isn't it?


Posted by: JEP Sep 30 2004, 01:56 PM

The Story of Judyth Vary Baker--The Woman who cracked the US Govt. JFK White Wash

Posted by: JEP Sep 30 2004, 03:45 PM

You should know how things work in politics, it is called fear management. Places like Oak Ridge learned there were huge dividents from fear techniques. The Manhattan Project had all the European Jewish imports working overtime at Los Alamos to blow up Hitler's Reich. The war ended to fast, but they had to blow up something---Japan would do.

Then, we had the Russians are coming and now it is turned into the terrorists are coming.

What is always the underlying factor----religion.

Russian Jews banned religion based on all the Jewish religion problems down throughout history. They had a better system---get rid of the religion problems and false concepts on Gods.

The Pro-Christian powers declaired these "communists."

Next, Christian issues and the Pope were right behind the problems in Vietnam----more Communists.

Jews were right behind the war on Hitler that turned into WWII. Problem---Jews version of God is about Jewish nationalism.

Cuba problems---more communist fear mongering. Persons like Oswald were mapping out the Communist Pro-Castro persons in the US for ex-FBI bubba Guy Bannister in New Orleans.

When the ologarchical powers failed to off Castro----they decided JFK would do because of all his peacemaking with Russia and non-expansionist actions with Cuba.

Oak Ridge wanted fear to keep them rich and profitable.

The Yale Bones club are masters at playing the fear cards----there is one running the country right now.

Religion and Fear is big business-----the most profitable trade in the world.


Posted by: JEP Oct 4 2004, 10:42 AM
Hi All,

The Judyth Baker story gets even more interesting. It appears there is an attempt to get one book published earlier, but it never seems to happen. The earlier book is called "Deadly Alliance," and has the ring of another book title on the Mafia links with the FBI.

I can't tell if the book materialized or if there is just an outline. The outline appears very close to what Judyth related to me. Oddly, it is co-authored with a Jewish surnamed type. Judyth also has another Jewish linked Surnamed type named Martin Shackelford supporting her story-----just not very well. So badly, it appears she is now writing her book on solo. Could these two be her Jewish linked minders?

The Ouline is listed below-----note the parts where Judyth wrote a paper on the substances that trigger/supported cancer. This is the study on radiation, hydrogen fluoride / fluorides, and toxic metals. All the rodent cancer studies highly depend on trace metals like manganese----as do HIV studies.


Deadly Alliance By Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph. D.

In 1963, the unsuccessful CIA-Mafia alliance to kill Castro --top-secret
until exposed by the Church Committee in 1975 --was directly linked to the JFK
conspiracy. "Plan A" called for Castro to be killed through the use of a
biological weapon that would make his death appear natural. If he could not be
killed by October 25, 1963, the same group of conspirators would go to "Plan B":
killing Kennedy. This is the first account of the JFK assassination that
links it directly (in an either-or fashion) to the plot to kill Castro, and the
first time Lee Harvey Oswald has ever been tied to the plot to kill Castro.
What this means is that the JFK assassination plot was an offshoot of a larger
secret alliance that is already established fact. It is, therefore, not
necessary to believe in the existence of a separate conspiracy theory.

Judyth is Recruited: To April 1963
 By the age of 15, Judyth achieved a reputation as a science whiz kid,
invented a new way to extract magnesium from seawater.

 Her real passion, though, was cancer research. Col. Philip Doyle set up a
lab for Judyth at her high school (Manatee High, in Florida), and introduced
her to CIA asset, Dr. Canute Michaelson, who provided financial support for
her initial

 Her appearance at an international science fair brought her to the
attention of other
medical figures with military or intelligence backgrounds, as well as top
officials of the American Cancer Society: Dr. Harold Diehl and Dr. Alton Ochsner
(of the famed
Ochsner Cancer Clinic in New Orleans). Ochsner was Judyth's principal
behind-the-scenes mentor through her late teen years.

 Judyth's lab was expanded and she received research materials from doctors
at the
Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, Eli Lilly, Oak Ridge, et al.

Evidence: A letter dated 9-2-60 from Dr. David Jacobus at Walter Reed, making
specific reference to chemicals supplied her and promising more.

 She was forced to take a loyalty oath., and, while still in high school,
was required to learn conversational Russian at a local junior college from a
Dr. Concevitch.

Evidence: A yellowed mailing envelope with the addressee, Concevitch.

 Her work came to the attention of Florida Senator George Smathers, a close
of JFK's, who encouraged her to write to the President and volunteer to put
her talents to work in the service of her country.

Evidence: A reply from the White House. (While not very dramatic, she soon
received fresh supplies, as Sen. Smathers told her she would.)

 She spent the summer after high school graduation working under a National
Science Foundation grant at Roswell Park in Buffalo, NY, the world's oldest
cancer research center. Her studies centered on "substances which cause cancer
become most deadly."
Source: The Bradenton Herald, 9-6-61.

 Of the 60-plus students working under a grant, she was the only member of
group chosen by Dr. George Moore, head of Roswell Park, to work directly with
him --and she was the only one forced to stay at the local YWCA. She was, in
"kidnapped" from an off-site apartment she tried to rent and returned to the

Evidence: Copious newspaper clippings on her achievements.
Corroborating testimony: Judyth recently located a man who also exhibited at
the science fair. He, too, was approached by the CIA, but his left-wing views
made him
a poor candidate for recruitment. Dr. Alton Ochsner Along with Judyth
herself, Ochsner is the primary new figure to emerge in this account of Oswald's
stay in New Orleans.

 Ocshner was friends with Clay Shaw, who was unsuccessfully prosecuted by
Orleans D. A. Jim Garrison for conspiring to assassinate JFK. Ochsner was
director of International House at the same time Clay Shaw was a managing
director. At
different times, he and Shaw headed this organization AND the International
Trade Mart. The two merged some years later.

 Ochsner's biographers quotes him as fearing that he would be indicted by
(John Wilds and Ira Harkey, Surgeon of the South)

 Ochsner was also friends with "Wild Bill" Donovan, head of the OSS, the
prescursor to the CIA. Both were elected officials of the American Cancer Society
in 1949.

 Ochsner founded the virulently anti-Communist Information Council of the
Americas (INCA), which later figured heavily into the activities of both Judyth
and Lee.

 Author Thomas Karnes (Tropical Enterprise) describes Ochsner as a
consultant to
the US Air Force "on the medical side of subversive matters."

Lee is Groomed: To April 1963
 Lee Oswald, a CIA operative, was groomed to look like a disaffected
American for
eventual use in Cuba. This was the primary reason for his fake defection to

 Lee told Judyth that he gave the Soviets information that he believed
allowed them
to shoot-down the secret U-2 spy plane (he had been stationed at the U-2 base
in Atsugi, Japan). Lee said that the military wanted to derail an upcoming
summit in which it was feared that President Eisenhower, declining mentally,
might be bested by Krushchev. Note: Downed U-2 Pilot Gary Powers has stated his
belief that Oswald had the information needed to bring him down.

 Upon his return from Russia, the CIA arranged for Lee to take a job at a
graphic arts firm, Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall, that was involved in highly
classified work for the government, including the creation of detailed maps of Cuba.
assignment involved identifying the location of safe houses. Lee was not
yet part of the CIA-Mafia plot in a concrete way, but would be linked to it in
the spring of 1963.
Judyth and Lee
 When Lee was ordered to move to New Orleans in April 1963, he met Judyth by
accident (or maybe not) at the new post office. They hit it off immediately,
despite the fact that he was married and she was to be married in a matter of

 Lee arranged for both of them to be hired on the same day by the Reily
Company, and he got them apartments within walking distance of each other.
Evidence: Judyth's W-2 form and pay stubs verify her contemporaneous
employment with Oswald.

Evidence: Want ads for both positions in the New Orleans Times-Picayune (to
create a "cover" of normalcy).
Note: Both William Reily and Judyth's boss, William Monaghan, were active
members of INCA. Monaghan, though nominally the company's credit manager,
was actually ex-FBI and an expert in industrial security.

 At Reily's, Lee interviewed Cuban women, refugees, that were cycled thru
factory. Winning their trust, he would extract from them the names of safe
contacts they had left behind in Cuba.

 Both Reily and Monaghan were aware of Lee's mission and Judyth's role as
"aide." But Lee's immediate supervisors were not..

 Judyth covered for Lee's activity, and for his daily absences from work,
making sure to punch him out at 4: 30PM or 5: 30PM when he was no longer there,
which was almost always.

Evidence: The Warren Report shows precise time-outs on the half-hour, an
impossibility since there was a line to wait on and such precise time-outs could
occur accidentally. It didn't occur to Judyth to vary the time-out stamp.
Evidence: She also wrote an obviously phony background report on Lee for
Reily's files. This report is also a Warren exhibit, although Judyth insists it
has not been
published in its entirety. One missing piece refers to a bank account; the WC
reported no evidence that Lee had such an account.

 Often Lee would go through The Crescent City Garage, next door to Reily's,
to get
to the offices of ex-FBI man, now-CIA operative, Guy Banister, who was deeply
involved in anti-Castro causes. This necessitated his befriending garage
Adrian Alba.

Note: Previous accounts have maintained that Lee whiled away time at the
garage reading gun magazines.
Note: The garage was regularly used by FBI and CIA cars. Alba has testified
that he saw the driver of one such car pass a white envelope to Lee.

 Lee was fired after he stole a green glass Judyth was admiring but could
not afford. These glasses were packed together with tea made by the company.
According to the Warren Commission, he had been reprimanded by supervisors who
often could not find him (as well he should have been, because he was often
not there). The glass incident was the proximate cause of his dismissal, but his
work at Reily's was done anyway.
Corroborating testimony: She told her children in 1980 of this episode.
Judyth still treasures the glass.

 Judyth was fired on August 9th, the day she was seen with Lee as he was
handing out pro-Castro leaflets.

Evidence: Her last pay stub was cut that very day.
Evidence: There is a (poor) picture of her in the Warren Report standing next
to Lee while he was leafleting. There is a resemblance between the girl in
the photo and
contemporaneous photos of Judyth. The dress pattern in the picture matches
close-up photos of a dress Judyth wore in other photos in her possession.
The Noble Conspiracy

This is a totally new account of what was going on in David Ferrie's
home-based lab.

 Lee arranged for Judyth to meet David Ferrie, who she would soon learn was
associate of New Orleans Mafia boss Carlos Marcello, a CIA-operative who flew
missions into Castro's Cuba, and an "amateur cancer researcher."

Note: Ferrie had lost his job as an Eastern Airlines pilot because of his
homosexuality. The 15-year-old Lee had spurned Ferrie's homosexual advances
when Ferrie captained Lee's Civil Air Patrol Unit (CAP).
Corroborating evidence: After decades of denials that Oswald and Ferrie were
acquainted, a photo emerged showing the two at a CAP picnic. Judyth says there
was an additional photo of the group, including Lee, hanging on the wall in
Ferrie's apartment.

 In early May, Judyth was told Ochsner had set up both Ferrie's home-based
cancer lab, as well as a smaller lab in the apartment of Dr. Mary Sherman, a
luminary at Ochsner's Clinic. The labs were devoted to "the medical side of
subversive matters," i. e., a form of biological warfare.
Corroborating evidence: The existence of the "cancer labs" is documented in
an obscure book by Ed Haslam, Mary, Ferrie and the Monkey Virus.

 Judyth put her extensive training in ways of speeding tumor growth in the
service of her government. Her job, which she accepted as a patriotic duty, was
to culture the strongest possible strains of lung cancer for eventual
transport to medical contacts in Cuba who could arrange for their injection into
Castro through a seemingly "innocuous innoculation."

 This lung cancer material would appear to kill Castro "naturally," as a
heavy cigar
smoker might be expected to develop lung cancer. This "assassination by
natural causes" would avert a possible confrontation with Russia that could ignite
War III. Judyth really believed this was a duty, considering the horrifying

 The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that
knocks out
the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer
cells. This material – scraped from the kidney's of sick monkeys – was, in
fact, the
AIDS virus.
Note: This material, used in the polio vaccine and other application, is now
the subject of an important new book on the origin of AIDS, Edward Hooper's
River. Judyth knew of its deadly potential and wrote letters to have its use
stopped at the same time as she was working with it.

Judyth personally met other plotters, including Banister, Shaw, and Marcello,
though, as a girl of 19 or 20, she was often treated as if she were
wallpaper. Wallpaper with ears, a 160 IQ, and the ability to do cutting edge cancer

 Banister used Lee to collect the names of Communist sympathizers at areas
colleges. Corroborating testimony: Prof. Michael Kurtz, an historian
specializing in Louisiana history, personally witnessed Lee, in Banister's company,
making anti-integrationist remarks at Tulane. Banister was a racist. Lee,
Judyth says, was staunchly pro-civil rights.

 Lee sometimes used a work area on the second floor of the 544 Camp building
that housed Banister's offices.
Note: Critics of DA Jim Garrison insist there was no stairway between the two
offices. According to Judyth, while there was no public stairway, there were
stairs leading down from the second floor to a door inside Banister's private
Corroborating Testimony: Anna Vincent, a new witness and ex-wife of Banister
"detective" David Lewis, confirms the existence of the stairway (on

 Judyth saw Lee sign out guns from Banister's weapons storeroom on the third
floor of 544 Camp Street in New Orleans. Lee also kept his own guns there
and, contrary to the belief of most conspiracy theorists, she maintains that he
was an excellent shot. She never saw or heard of a Mannlicher-Carcano, the gun
Oswald supposedly used to kill Kennedy.

Ruby, Marcello
 While Judyth was in Lee's company, she met Jack Ruby twice, in May and June
of 1963, once at Ferrie's apartment and once at The 500 Club, a Marcello
hang-out. Ruby worked with Banister and Marcello in running guns to Cuban exiles.

Corroborating testimony: Anna Vincent: "Ruby knew all of 'em," including
Oswald. She also claims that David Lewis knew Lee before Judyth ever met him, she
believes in 1962. It has long been suspected that Ruby and Banister ran guns
to the exiles.
Corroborating testimony: Prof. Kurtz and others claim that Ruby was in New
Orleans on several occasions in 1963.
Corroborating testimony: Gerry Patrick Hemming, head of Interpen, a mercenary
group linked by some to the assassination, says he saw Oswald at the New
airport in "mid-1962." (Actually, Hemming claims other members of his group
were involved, but that he turned down two contracts from Texas money,
believing he
was going to be made the patsy. Hemming is still very much alive and

 Judyth knew Ruby as "Sparky" Rubenstein. When Lee was killed, she did not
know that Jack Ruby and Sparky Rubenstein were the same man! The shock of
seeing Lee killed on TV caused her to avoid all further coverage of the

 Lee told Judyth that he first met Sparky when he was just 15, and that he
Ruby's attempts to recruit him into Mob business. Even so, he ran errands for
his uncle, Dutz Murrett, who ran a bookmaking operation for Marcello. Judyth
accompanied Lee on one such errand.

 Lee told Judyth that he was trusted by Mob figures, up to and including
Marcello, for his ability to keep his mouth shut. Marcello told Ruby to look
after the boy when the family moved to Texas.

Corroborating evidence: Oswald's ties to the Mafia came not just via his
uncle, but from his mother, who dated a number Marcello employees, including Sam
Oswald and his mother lived in a Mafia neighborhood on Exchange Alley.

Lee As Spy
 Lee and Ferrie taught combat techniques to Cuban exiles at the
training camp at Lake Pontchartrain (other camps were in Florida), and
portions of these training sessions were filmed. Judyth saw this film in Ferrie's

Corroborating testimony: Robert Tanenbaum, Deputy Counsel of the House Select
Committee on Assassinations, saw such a film before he quit the investigation
disgust. His attempts to relocate it have proved fruitless. Like so much
other evidence (including the President's brain and numerous autopsy photos!), it
missing. Tanenbaum is today a very successful mystery writer, as well as the
former mayor of Beverly Hills.

 Judyth saw Lee use an expensive Minox camera, typically used in espionage
Corroborating evidence: The FBI tried to get the Dallas police to change its
evidence inventory from "small German camera" to "light meter" --efforts fully
documented by the officers they pressured. An FBI document refers to Minox
film retrieved from Oswald's possessions after the assassination.

Where is the film today? Where is the camera or light meter? In fact, a Minox
camera sits in the National Archives today (owner unknown). It is glued shut
so its
serial number cannot be seen. In any case, how could Oswald, supposedly a
virtual pauper, afford a $200 spy camera?

Note: According to Judyth, Lee's Minox was so sensitive that he never needed
to use a light meter in her presence. She never saw him with one.

 To establish his pro-Castro bona fides, Lee handed out leaflets bearing the
name of the "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" three times in August. He got the
idea for
leafleting from an episode of "I Led Three Lives," an early 1950s TV show
about Herbert Philbrick, an FBI man pretending to be a Communist.
Evidence: Lee's brother, Robert, confirms his fascination with that show. (It
would be nice to track down that episode.)
Note: Lee later met the real Herbert Philbrick, who was a consultant to
Ochsner's group, INCA. He found his boyhood hero unimpressive in the flesh.

 Lee staged his own arrest at an August 16th leafleting,. His "fight" with
Cuban exile leader Carlos Bringuier was based on an incident he had read about
in a local newspaper months earlier. The story concerned a narcotics agent who
provoked a
street fight to enhance his cover as a bad guy.

Evidence: Judyth has the May 4, 1963 article.
Corroborating testimony: Ex-CIA agent William Gaudet said he saw Oswald
inside the International Trade Center several times. Judyth says Lee stored some of
propaganda materials there. Gaudet has said the street scuffle was "a sort of
PR operation" and declared his belief that Kennedy was the victim of an
conspiracy. Gaudet was a friend of Ocshner's.

 At a meeting arranged by Ochsner's group, INCA, held to prepare for a radio
interview of Lee, someone accidentally uttered the name "David Atlee
Phillips." Lee came to believe his CIA handler, "Mr. B.," was actually Phillips.
Judyth waited in the
car as the meeting took place at Reily's.
Lead: Phillips, propaganda specialist in Cuban affairs, denied ever knowing
Oswald. There are reports of a death-bed confession in which admitted, at the
very least,
that he did meet Oswald. Judyth's source, a national book award winner,
claimed this information came from Phillips's nephew, a Shawn Phillips, but now
refuses to
help us locate this man.

 Lee then participated in a radio debate with Bringuier, also organized by
group, INCA.

 Shaw and Ferrie knew each other well. Judyth accompanied Lee to an airfield
where Ferrie took the other two men on a flight to Canada.
Corroborating testimony: An ex-secretary of Ochsner's, Aura Lee, worked at
Shaw's Trade Mart and claimed that Ferrie, a distinctive-looking gentleman, was
a frequent
visitor to Shaw.
Corroborating testimony: Others have reported on Ferrie-Shaw flights to
Canada before Judyth came along.
Con't to part 2 of 2

Posted by: JEP Oct 4 2004, 10:51 AM

Now the story gets more interesting---in that there is a live test(s) of the cancer virus on humans and this is the reason for the Oswald trip to the mental health facility. The test injected the cancer virus into a Cuban person with similar genetics and immune resistance as Castro. The fluoride-metal effects determine if the cancer will propagate in humans and in rodents.


Con't from part 1 of 2:

Judyth's Lee
Judyth portrays Oswald as a much more intelligent and charming man than we
have seen in previous accounts.

 Although Lee confessed to her within days of their meeting that he beat
Judyth says he never raised a hand to her. In fact, she describes no fights
of any kind. Lee told her that Marina mercilessly denigrated him. Lee admitted
to a
mother-wife problem, which they often discussed, and she believes the abuse
stopped (it would be interesting if Marina would confirm this).

Corroborating testimony: In his unpublished manuscript – I'm A Patsy, I'm A
Patsy – the urbane George Demohrenschildt, described by some as Lee's CIA
in Texas, described Marina's treatment of Lee.

 Although primarily self-taught, the range of Lee's knowledge impressed
Judyth, as
did his ability to teach himself Russian despite being dyslexic.

Corroborating evidence: Oswald's library records show that he was an avid
reader. They also show Judyth's influence (anthropology and sci-fi), as well as
books he
took out for her to read (e. g., a primer on Cummunism). Judyth says he took
out more books than are shown in the Warren Report, some using her or Ferrie's

Evidence: Refer to the text of a speech Lee gave to a Jesuit-sponsored
conference in Mobile… a transcript of his radio debate… a short sci-fi story – "Her
Story" – he
wrote with Judyth.
Corroborating testimony: Demohrenschildt heaped praise on Lee's intelligence
in his book (a different account of the man than the one he gave to the Warren
Note: "The Baron" committed suicide just prior to meeting with House
investigator Gaeton Fonzi (The Last Investigation)

 While in the company of Oswald, Judyth sometimes posed as Marina, which was
possible because of their physical resemblance and her ability to speak
Russian. Judyth's husband was out of town most of their married life in New

Evidence: Judyth has photos of herself at the time, some of which show a
striking resemblance to Marina.

 Although they fell in love almost immediately, Lee and Judyth resisted
lovers until the summer.

 In testimony, Marina said Lee was always home at night, but she never said
by what time.

Corroborating testimony: Anna Vincent asserts that she, her husband, Judyth
and Lee were a foursome, meeting after work on a regular basis early that
usually at Thompson's Restaurant, where Anna worked. Lee and Judyth would
keep company with them until 8: 00-8: 30 PM. Anna describes a call from Marina at
Thompson's. Marina wanted to know if Lee was there with another woman.
Clinton/ Jackson: Mystery Solved

This is a totally new account of the trip to Clnton
 Judyth's work took longer than expected, and was, to her horror, tested on
at least
one human guinea pig --the real reason for the mysterious trip to Clinton,
probably on August 23, by Shaw, Ferrie, and Oswald.

Note: The House Select Committee on Assassinations found the Clinton
witnesses – including John Birchers and CORE activists – credible, but no one has
been able
to come up with a coherent explanation for the trip. All have been
sidetracked by the fact that Oswald tried to register to vote while in Clinton though he
didn't live

 Lee mentioned picking up a man in white hospital garb who guided them to
mental hospital in Jackson, the next town over from Clinton, and to the
experimental area there.

Note: Witnesses reported seeing a fourth man – a "man in white" --emerge from
the car with Lee in Clinton.

 The true reason for the long stop in Clinton was an unexpected delay: the
prisoner( s) had not yet arrived at the hospital. Oswald got on line after
betting Shaw that he could get registered just because he was white.

 Lee and Judyth were heartsick over the plan to treat a prisoner/ mental
patient, but
were powerless to stop it. Several days after the first trip, Lee took Judyth
to the hospital to see the test subject. Shaw OK'd it, as he wanted her
assessment of the patient's condition.

 Judyth checked on the bloodwork to see if the serum "took." If the
bloodwork was
not conclusive, an immediate blood sample could have been drawn and checked
while she was still there. As it turned out, radical changes began quickly. The
she saw (there may have been more than one) was Cuban, white, about Castro's
age and physique.

 They made one stop going to jackson and another on the way home. Judyth
stayed in the car both times.

Corroborating evidence: Despite "slouching,," she was seen by at least two

 Edwin Lea McGehee:
An "old... battered" car drove up to his barbershop and Lee Harvey Oswald
came inside for a haircut. "There was a woman sitting on the front seat [of the
car]... and in the back seat what I noticed was --looked like a [baby]
bassinet..." (Judyth says this was a car used by the Lewis's and that the bassinet
was for the
pregnant Anna).

 Mary Morgan, daughter of Reeves Morgan, State Representative (and a guard
the Jackson hospital!):
When Oswald was in the house talking with her dad, she went onto the porch
and "just casually noticed there was a dark colored car parked under a tree in
front of the house." She remembered "seeing a woman in the car."
Note: The fact that there were two trips within days of each other explains
why some accounts say this was a three-day trip. It is unlikely that any of
these men, and certainly not Shaw, would make a three-day trip together.

 The test was a success, as the subject died within weeks.

 Lee and Judyth began to realize that they were trapped. They could not back
out of the plot for fear they would be killed.

The Road to the Assassination
 Lee and Judyth actually liked the Kennedys; they never thought they would
racing a deadline to keep him alive. In private, Ferrie told them that he
opposed the assassination; he was only putting on an act for Shaw, who
represented Texas
money in New Orleans.
Note: Excluding comments in Banister's company, every mention in the
historical record of Oswald talking about Kennedy is a positive one. (We have a
of his statements.)

 Based on a message from H. L. Hunt conveyed to a Shaw associate, those
involved with the labs had reason to fear for their lives once they had outlived
their usefulness.

 Ferrie arranged for Judyth to take a job, beginning in September, at
Chem in Florida, which made highly toxic chemicals. There she continued to
contribute to the project by making "custom" chemicals for Ferrie.

Evidence: Judyth has a read-out from a chemical analysis done at PenChem.

 The three understood, as early as the third week of August, that Lee's
grooming in
Russia and his activities in New Orleans made him the perfect patsy.

 Fearing he was a dead man if he tried to break with the conspirators at
this point, he would join them, walking with eyes wide open into the patsy role.
He hoped to get close to the inner circle of the conspiracy in Dallas and,
claims Judyth, stop the plot
from the inside. To get further inside, he would play up his connections to
Marcello and revealed his marksmanship.

 At the end of August, Shaw paid for the last of several hotel trysts for
Judyth and
Lee. According to Judyth, Shaw felt sorry for them.

 Judyth then left for Florida. The supposedly impoverished Lee gave her $400
"emergencies" – equal to about $2,800 in today's dollars. Judyth told her
family that the money fell out of an ironing board she bought at a yard sale.
Mexico City: Mystery Solved

This is a totally new account of the mysterious trip to Mexico City.
 In August, Judyth trained Lee to handle the deadly materials. Judyth left
for Florida
at the end of the month.

 Lee couriered the materials to Mexico City at the end of September,
expecting to
meet a contact who would bring them into Cuba. He was ordered to make the
trip by Mr. B.

New information: Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank
Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B. He
posted to Mexico City at the same time as Phillips. The record says that
Droller worked for the OSS during the war, but there are indications he actually
worked on
biological weapons for the Nazis.

 Lee was left holding the bag --i. e., no one was there to meet him in
Mexico City to take the materials off his hands. So he desperately tried to get
into Cuba himself, where his knowledge of the language, the terrain, safe houses,
and contacts might
still be used. Indeed, initially, he expected to make the entire trip

 He was frantic because the materials had a limited life span outside a lab
– hence, the official reports of his erratic behavior. He was also frantic
because he knew what failure meant. In fact, the conspirators had already turned
to Plan B without telling him.

 They were later told that Hurricane Flora had created so much destruction
information about safe houses, and about Castro's routine, was no longer to
be trusted, so Plan A was called off.

 With Lee in Texas and Judyth in Florida, Ferrie arranged for about 14
back-channel phone calls through a cooperative (and well-paid-off) operator in

Corroborating evidence: Only one call placed to Oswald at the Book Depository
is on record. This call came from "a lady with no accent" The Warren
tried to track the origin of the call, but couldn't get past Covington.
According to Judyth, the record would not even show this call except for the fact
that the operator
putting this call through was not their usual operator.
Note: Interpen had a presence in Covington.

 Lee told Judyth that he made several unsuccessful attempts to stop the
assassination, including calling death threats to the FBI.

Corroborating evidence: A number of anonymous threats and warnings were
called into FBI offices prior to the assassination.

 In their last conversation, on November 20 th , they discussed the option
of fleeing
before the assassination. Judyth recalls Lee's words precisely: "if I stay,
that will be one less bullet aimed at Kennedy."

 Lee told Judyth of his last-ditch plan: to fire a premature shot, a warning
shot, at the motorcade, hoping to alert JFK's Secret Service protectors.

Corroborating Testimony: At least 5 Warren Commission witnesses reported a
bullet hitting the pavement behind the President's limo. This would have been
his closest and presumably easiest shot.
Note: The "street shot" bullet was presumably never found, unless that is
what is being picked up by the "mystery FBI man" photographed with Dallas Deputy
Buddy Walthers and Officer J. W. Foster. The photo has long been the subject
of speculation.
New Testimony: Anna Vincent says it was open knowledge in the local Mafia
that Lee fired a premature shot.

 If he did fire a warning shot, it went unheeded by the sleepy Secret
Service agents.

 Lee and Judyth had made plans for an escape and rendezvous in Mexico.
tells of Ferrie sobbing uncontrollably during phone calls with him because it
had all gone so wrong. His 400-mile car trip to Houston the day of the
assassination was
made in vain (he told Garrison, variously, that he and two friends went
roller-skating or goose-hunting.)
Deaths After Dallas
 Guy Banister died of an apparent hear attack at his home in early 1964.

New Testimony: According to Anna Vincent, her husband, David Lewis, and
fellow Banister employee, Jack Martin, went to the office immediately upon hearing
news, only to find the files carted off and yellow ribbon surrounding the
office declaring it to be a crime scene. Lewis played a minor role in the Cuban
and, according to Anna, was told to "keep his mouth shut."
Note: Author Ed Haslam (see above) believes he saw remains of Banister's
missing files at INCA's offices.

 David Ferrie died of an apparent brain anyeurism (not cancer as he told
curious about his lab) in early 1964.

Note: An empty bottle of Proloid – which could kill a man suffering from
hypertension --and two typed "suicide notes" keep his death controversial.

 Mary Sherman was brutally murdered in her bed just weeks later, with
reports of
cancers cells stolen.

Corroborating testimony: Judyth has a letter from a former resident of New
Orleans in which he recollects radio reports of stolen cancer cells.

 Jack Ruby died of "a galloping cancer" in 1967. When he visited Ferrie's
apartment in the summer of 1963, Judyth showed him the lab and told him about
the cancer cell injections --including where on the body the injections should
be administered.
Note: In jail, Ruby insisted he was injected with cancer cells, but no one
took him seriously. His mind was shot and they just assumed it was incoherent

 Clay Shaw died suddenly of cancer in 1972.
Note: He was being treated for an undisclosed illness at Ochsner's Hospital
just prior to his death.
Note: Of the 8 persons Judyth knew who were connected to the New Orelans
cancer project, 5 were dead by 1967. After 1972, only she and Ochsner remained --
and she was in hiding.
The Participants
Who was involved? Mafia, CIA "rogues," Cuban exiles, financed by Texas oil –
or a smaller group culled from these. When the CIA-Mafia alliance was
established in
1959, an infrastructure was created that could be used by a subset of this
group to put into motion the events of 1963.

Their Motives
The Mafia
JFK's failure to regain Cuba meant the permanent loss of billions of dollars
from their casinos. Also providing motive was Bobby Kennedy's unprecedent
assault on
organized crime, including particularly aggressive treatment of New Orleans
crime boss Carlos Marcello. The mob saw this treatment as no way to return a
favor, i. e., their help in rigging the 1960 election results in Illinois and
Texas. The CIA
After the Bay of Pigs fiasco, JFK threatened to "split the CIA into a
thousand pieces." He fired CIA Director Allen Dulles (who would later sit on the
Warren Commission!) and General George Cabell (whose brother Earl was Mayor of
Dallas in 1963). JFK was seen as soft on Communism, waekening his resolve in
Vietnam, and the olive branch extended to Castro was the last straw. Cuban
JFK was viewed by this group as a traitor to their cause. Kennedy's betrayal
started with the Bay of Pigs and included the deal with the Soviets that ended
the Cuban
Missile Crisis (which produced a non-invasion pledge), RFK's dismantling in
1963 of training camps the CIA set up for exiles and his suppression of exile
raids on Cuba,
and, finally, JFK's attempt late in 1963 at a rapproachmant with Castro.
Texas Money
This group – led by H. L. Hunt --detested JFK's Cuba policy, as well as his
integrationist stance, but mostly they were threatened by his vow to repeal a
major tax windfall, the oil depletion allowance. They wanted a man in the White
House they could control, i. e., LBJ, and they needed to get him there fast,
as the Bobby Baker and Billy Sol Estes scandals threatened his continuation as
Vice President.

If this cabal couldn't get to Castro, paving the way for a rebellion, or at
least more compliant leadership, they had decided to go after Kennedy. With the
blame pinned on Oswald, who was groomed to look like a Communist, and would
soon be groomed to look pro-Castro, they hoped to spark a second invasion of

Ironically, CIA stonewalling of the Warren Commission was almost certainly
conducted to prevent its relationship with the Mafia from being exposed, as well
as its surveillance operation in Mexico City. Thus, the assassination
cover-up was thus joined by high officials in the CIA, who may not themselves have
participated in the assassination.
On Proof and Evidence
While there is no "smoking gun" proof --no government document, for example
--for this particular plot, no such proof should be expected for a project kept
so secret.
However, the account provided by Judyth Avary Baker is much more detailed
than any previous account by a late-emerging witness, and it explains a lot
heretofore subject to speculation.
Note: Judyth's knowledge of events in New Orleans is often first-hand. What
she knows or believes about events in Dallas comes from conversations with
Oswald or
David Ferrie.
Last Words

"They did it too good."
Gerry Patrick Hemming, Interpen, on why the conspirators failed:
"The key ticket with the guy was that he defected to the Soviet Union, he's
been trained as a KGB agent. How could these people [the plotters] possibly
figure out that this scenario would scare the shit out of the people in
Washington? What backfired on the plotters was painting this picture that it was a
Castro hit. It scared the shit out of some high-ranking people, and they covered
it up. Jesus Christ, the best laid plans of mice and men. They did it too good.
They painted too clear of a picture that burned its way right back to Fidel
Castro. It scared the fuck out of the powers that be. They wouldn't go to war.
The American people never realized we had come so fucking close to nuclear

"… Who Struck John"
James Jesus Angleton, CIA counterintelligence spymaster:
"A mansion has many rooms and there were many things going on during the
period of the bombings. I'm not privy to who struck John." [The New York Times,
March 1975]

Posted by: Mark Oct 4 2004, 01:16 PM
Hey JP, my eyes My eyes.... eyeball.gif eyeball.gif

Sooo much text, I think I busted a vein. smile.gif

Are you surprised to see so many new faces? Not sure if you heard, but GLP was shut down recently and its members are spread all over the net. We got many of the good souls here.

I'll come back and try and read more later. Just checkin in on ya as I got my hands full.

Keep up the good Fight - never give up!

Posted by: JEP Oct 4 2004, 02:31 PM
Hi Pupp,

Well congrats on GLP going down and Pupp's getting all the good folks!!! I did note that the "Shouts" were getting much more numerous. I bet you will also get some of the chaff, here and there. I am sure you will spot those rapidly. You have an excellent pupp nose for that.

I am still trying to get to the "Freedom Fighter" Title. OK, what is the secret on getting there?

Yeah, the Judyth thing takes a while to read, but hey---good stuff in there. It breaks the JFK stuff wide open. It was only in pdf mode on the net, so I said---Hey why not HTML it -- and get Pupps some more hits on JFK reseach.

I also added it to the DOEWatch page, and some extra observation and opinion:

This is an outline for an earlier attempted book by Judyth and another person. For some reason this book appears to have gone nowhere and she is off writing another with many references. This time alone.

In Oak Ridge, there is much interference with exposing information that shows up the Govt. deceits and frauds. Often the players closest to those being interfered with are the ones most helping to stall things.

With information this applicable to the JFK cover up, a book containing such information should be a million seller and hotly pursued by many publishers. In Oak Ridge a deal was made with Jewish factions to stymie and withhold these type hot exposures, in return Oak Ridge would help cover up their issues of deceit. Could this be happening with the Judyth Baker story?

Things to take particular note of from the outline below is the paper she wrote on substances that enhance cancers. This is the information on how radiation, HF / fluorides, and certain toxic metals set off the cancer process via damage to the immune system.

The other item of importance is to note they did human testing on Cuban persons with similar genetic heritage as Castro and similar food mineral retention. Fluorides is one of the principle keys to human cancer risk due to the fluoride upsetting the trace mineral balances and trace metals like manganese. Fluorides play a huge role in rodent cancer propagation. They tested the cancer on Cuban prison inmates transferred to mental hospitals.

To compensate for low exposed persons, these methods would often need to spike the food supplies with radiation, fluorides, or toxic metals. Or spike the injection itself with one of these substances that promote cancer.

Oak Ridge is not beyond having used these methods on unsuspecting persons. The Oak Ridge method spikes a person's food with a chemical that produces kidney stones, and when the person comes to the local hospital they are over-exposed to X-rays to track the kidney stone. This effect is similar to the one used on Jack Ruby.

The Oak Ridge methods of brain washing use the X-ray methods sans the exogenous cancer virus injections and allows the human endogenous viruses like EB, CMV, and others to set up long term health effects and cause problems like Chronic Fatigue and memory loss.

The outline below by Judyth will give readers a good look as when and how these methods were invented.


Posted by: Mark Oct 4 2004, 07:30 PM
The PuPP Nose - heh - it is quite large and a really good sniffer.

I am still trying to get to the "Freedom Fighter" Title.

OK, what is the secret on getting there?

4 more posts!

You're almost there...

LOLOL spot.gif

160 posts = Freedom Fighter

Posted by: JEP Oct 5 2004, 08:17 AM
Hi Pupp,

Hey, I knew there was a break point in there somewhere. Now we know where the elusive title resides. 3 more to go.

You might take note of the method of the madness for translating the Judyth book outline into html from pdf. Now it will pick up on all the seach engines much better. That appears why so many don't know of her role in the JFK run up. Now the search engines should slowly include these key points from the JVB story.

This book outline was done by a Jewish person named Howard Platzman, and there is just about no way a Jewish person can tell the full story on JFK, with Jewish / Israel and Cuban gun runner Rubenstein, LBJ the Israel pontificator, etc. Just too many conflicts for them to get past. Huge conflict of interest there in getting into the full story.

I am not sure how this Platzman person became involved, but he appears to have named the book and included himself in the title. Some are concerned of profiteer issues, but the real issue just might be some intentional bias to avoid this hot Jewish involvement in the JFK fray. We don't see those Jewish connections mentioned, though very much present in the history leading to JFK's murder. It appears the other JVB supporter named Martin Shackelford is real close with this Platzman. And soon we'll see that if someone touches on the Jewish issues, the anti-semite label being tossed around by these two. I think we are about to see more crying than Henry Kissenger used to pull on Nixon to control things.

Now, another interesting thing is they appear to have submitted the book to a New York publisher named Weimann, who appears to have liked the general message of the book, but insisted on rewrites. One would like to know what kind of rewrites. What should have been the hottest book of the century, scored a big stike out with lots of Jewish players in the mix.

We shall see if this book can get into the light of day, with the next iterations.


Posted by: JEP Oct 6 2004, 05:28 AM
Hi All,

I have an idea to share with you all. It comes from a local lawyer friend and is his idea, but so excellent that I must share it. This friend works down at the Knoxville Court House here, which is extremely GOP, and he gets sick of it. The same Court House is where Bush's close Skull and Bones buddy named Victor Ashe had his big office as Mayor of Knoxville.

It appears that Bush quickly appointed Ashe as Ambassator to Poland, to get him well out of the country and the gay issues surrounding he and Bush. That would make for a huge problem for the Bush gaming on religion supporters.

Here is the idea in his own words and it fits so well just before election time:


Isn't this an awesome idea to help spead the word using humor on a holiday preceeding then elections?

I think we should pass this idea around as widely as possible and get some kids the idea, not to mention all the adult Halloween parties, to have this costume theme.

Perhaps, if there are some haunted houses with the usual caskets---they need to have a couple guys in them named Victor-Honey and Georgey-Baby.

Did you all catch all the Cheney lies last nite? Yeah--like he never claimed Al-Q links to Iraq and he never met Edwards.


Posted by: BJ1 Oct 6 2004, 08:43 AM
"Did you all catch all the Cheney lies last nite? Yeah--like he never claimed Al-Q links to Iraq and he never met Edwards."

Yep, and caught the jitterbug dance he did all around the points brought up by Edwards...the replacement of the one trillion$ of Soc. Sec. money, the drug bill for seniors, affordable health care, the educational system, the opium growth in Afghanistan, etc. However, neither one of them mentioned the illegal alien problem, 8-13 million of 'em, with 3 million more expected next year. Probably because both sides are for open borders. And neither mentioned the Patriot Act that they know we detest.

Was I the only one who noticed that both wore red ties? That sent me a signal as they do not choose arbitrarily what they wear in a public setting. No coincidence. We are being pumped up by the Skull & Boners because neither side wants to tell the truth that, after the Selection, things are going to get much worse. It can't be otherwise. They are selling us a nightmare in disguise. snake.gif


Posted by: JEP Oct 6 2004, 09:42 AM
Hi All,

It looks like "Operation Northwoods" is back in the news, see abc news here:

Operation Northwoods is all about how to fake an attack and set up Cuba. It was a hot topic in the early 60's to force the issue with JFK. Except this plan went more than a little crazy, they decided to make JFK the fake attack.

In Oak Ridge, Operation Northwoods is called "Operation Norwood"---for the guy that set up this type plan against JFK and who lived in the community of Norwood.

You can see lots of these issues in the Judyth Baker book outline. The Cuba plotters wanted Cuba back, even if they had to kill JFK to get there.

And you can even see the Neo-Cons using the same methods for 911, the Iraq war, etc.


Posted by: JEP Oct 6 2004, 09:59 AM

Dear friends,

A revealing ABC news article begins, "In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba." The article goes on to say that the plans, code-named Operation Northwoods, were approved in writing by the top US military chiefs. These plans even proposed that the US military secretly blow up an American ship and hijack US planes as a false pretext for war. Does this ring a bell? Don't miss this disturbing article on the ABC website at:

The team presents this information to inspire in you a desire to strengthen democracy and to build a better world together. Our website focuses on providing reliable, verifiable facts which are being hidden from public view. By spreading this important information, each of us can make a difference.

To read the original declassified Operation Northwoods documents posted on the National Security Archive of George Washington University, see If you don't have time to read the 15-page declassified report, take a look at the key excerpts below. We invite you to then ask yourself, is it beyond comprehension that this same kind of thinking and planning could have led to 9/11?

Remember that these documents were approved in writing by the Joint Chiefs of Staff-the top generals of each branch of the US armed forces-and submitted to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara in 1962, though never acted upon. The plans were classified top secret so that the American public would not know how it was being manipulated. They came to light only because of a Freedom of Information Act request in the late 1990s. By going to you can request these documents yourself from the US Department of Defense.

Excerpts from Operation Northwoods Documents

Page 1 of File (Memorandum)

13 March 1962


Subject: Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba

The Joint Chiefs of Staff have considered the attached Memorandum for the Chief of Operations, Cuba Project, which responds to a request of that office for brief but precise description of pretexts which could provide justification for US military intervention in Cuba. It is assumed that a single agency will be given the primary responsibility for developing military and para-military aspects of the basic plan. It is recommended that this responsibility for both overt and covert military operations be assigned the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Page 5 of File (page 2 of Joint Chiefs report)

World opinion, and the United Nations forum should be favorably affected by developing the international image of the Cuban government as rash and irresponsible, and as an alarming and unpredictable threat to the peace of the Western Hemisphere.

Page 10-11 of File (page 7-8 of Joint Chiefs report)

A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.

(1) Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.
(2) Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence" to stage attack on base.
(3) Capture Cuban (friendly) saboteurs inside the base.
(4) Start riots near the base main gate (friendly Cubans).
(5) Blow up ammunition inside the base: start fires.
(6) Burn aircraft on air base (sabotage).
(7) Lob mortar shells from outside of base into base.
(8) Capture assault teams approaching from the sea or vicinity of Guantanamo City.
(9) Capture militia group which storms base.
(10) Sabotage ship in harbor; large fires - naphthalene.
(11) Sink ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals for mock-victims.

We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington.

Page 12 of File (page 9 of Joint Chiefs report)

Use of [Soviet] MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. Reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from US resources in about three months.

Page 13 of File (page 10 of Joint Chiefs report)

Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba.

It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday.

An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At the designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual aircraft would be converted to a drone.

The drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal.

Note from

Remember that these and other government leaders think of this like a chess game. Sometimes you have to sacrifice your own in order to win the game. As a further example of this, Zbigniew Brzezinski, former US National Security Advisor and co-founder with David Rockefeller of the Trilateral Commission, gave his 1997 book the title The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives. In this seminal book on American foreign policy in the coming century, Brzezinksi states that because of popular resistance to US military expansionism, his ambitious strategy for "American global primacy" can't be implemented "except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat." (The Grand Chessboard page 211).

Consider also that in September 2000, a neo-conservative think-tank named Project for the New American Century (PNAC) published a "blueprint for maintaining global US preeminence and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests." Written before the 2000 Presidential election, this revealing report was commissioned by future Vice President Cheney, future Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, future Deputy Defense Secretary Wolfowitz, and Florida Governor Jeb Bush. The report shows that the Bush administration intended to take military control of Persian Gulf oil whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power. It advocates "regime change" in China, North Korea, Libya, Syria, and Iran. [See article in Sunday Herald, 9/7/02 or click here to download the report--Rebuilding America's Defenses]

Considering the above information, is it beyond comprehension that tactics similar to Operation Northwoods might have been used in relation to the 9/11 attacks in order to create "a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat?" Could 9/11 have been the pretext upon which to build a War on Terror in order to "maintain global US preeminence?"

We invite you to explore our website at for more on these and other important facts. Of particular relevance is a two-page summary of verifiable facts taken from major media sources which suggest a major 9/11 cover-up at or even better, see the 10-page summary at We draw no firm conclusions with this information. We present reliable, easily verifiable facts and information without interpretation, allowing you to draw your own conclusions.

We invite you to join in making a difference. By spreading this information far and wide, we can help many others to wake up to what is happening. We can build the critical mass necessary to strengthen democracy, and to change this world for the better. One easy way you can help is to forward this email to your friends and colleagues. We also invite you to look inside yourself to see what you might be keeping secret which is not serving the good of all, or which is in some way manipulating others. The most powerful changes we can make are often inside of ourselves. We thank you for caring enough to explore this disturbing information. May we all work together to build a better world for us all.

The team is a group of dedicated researchers from around the world who compile and summarize important, verifiable facts and information being hidden from the public. We are deeply committed to building a brighter future for us, for our children, and for our world.

Explore these empowering websites: - Revealing major cover-ups & working together for a better world - Building a Global Community for All - Every person in the world has a heart
Together, we are building a better world based on love and cooperation.

Posted by: Mark Oct 6 2004, 10:05 AM

Is it an open bar?

Seriously, sounds like a good idea, or something along those lines.

Gotta wake people up the same way they were put to sleep with in your face subliminal messages. While they're partying and having a good time, maybe they'll eventually snap out of it and realize what these criminals are doing.


Posted by: BJ1 Oct 6 2004, 03:11 PM
For the sake of brevity, I have edited out some of the pertinent details from the following article:

Did Bush Senior -'Poppy Bush' - Kill Kennedy in 1963?

A newly discovered FBI document reveals that George (Herbert Walker) Bush was directly involved in the 1963 murder of President John Kennedy. The document places Bush working with the now-famous CIA agent, Felix Rodriguez, recruiting right-wing Cuban exiles for the invasion of Cuba. It was Bush's CIA job to organize the Cuban community in Miami for the invasion. The Cubans were trained as marksmen by the CIA. Bush at that time lived in Texas. Hopping from Houston to Miami weekly, Bush spent 1960 and '61 recruiting Cubans in Miami for the invasion. That is how he met Felix Rodriguez.

You may remember Rodriguez as the Iran-contra CIA agent who received the first phone call telling the world the CIA plane flown by Gene Hasenfus had crashed in Nicaragua. As soon as Rodriguez heard that the plane crashed, he called his long-time CIA supervisor, George Bush. Bush denied being in the contra loop, but investigators recently obtained copies of Oliver North's diary, which documents Bush's role as a CIA supervisor of the contra supply network.

...A memo from FBI head J. Edgar Hoover was found, stating that, "Mr. George Bush of the CIA had been briefed on November 23rd, 1963 about the reaction of anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami to the assassination of President Kennedy. (Source: The Nation, 8/13/88).

George Bush claims he never worked for the CIA until he was appointed director by former Warren Commission director and then President Jerry Ford, in 1976. ... Bush may deny his actual role in the CIA in 1959, but there are records in the files of Rodriguez and others involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba that expose Bush's role. The corporations would not put somebody in charge of all the state secrets held by the CIA unless he was experienced and well trained in the CIA. (Source: Project Censored Report, Feb 1989, Dr Carl Jensen, Sonoma State College).

Recently I interviewed former CIA liaison officer L. Fletcher Prouty. He is a consultant for the excellent new movie on how the CIA killed JFK, being made by Oliver Stone. He said he delivered three ships to a CIA agent named George Bush, who had the 3 ships painted to look like they were civilian ships. That CIA agent then named the 3 ships after: his wife, his home town and his oil company. He named the ships: Barbara, Houston & Zapata.

Newly discovered FBI documents prove that Jack Ruby has been an employee of Richard Nixon since 1947. That that [sic] FBI document Ruby is listed as working as a spy & hit man for Nixon. On Nov. 22, 63 Ruby was seen by a women who knew him well, Julian Ann Mercer, approximately an hour before the arrival of JFK's motorcade, unloading a man carrying a rifle in a case at the Grassy Knoll from his car. ...

Nixon told Pepsi, Standard Oil and other corporations who lost property given back to the farmers of Cuba, that if they would help him win (the election), he would authorize an invasion to remove Castro. To further impress contributors to his campaign, then Vice-President Nixon asked the CIA to create Operation 40, a secret plan to invade Cuba, just as soon as he won.

The CIA put Texas millionaire and CIA agent George Bush in charge of recruiting Cuban exiles into the CIA's invasion army. Bush was working with another Texas oilman, Jack Crichton, to help him with the invasion. A fellow Texan, Air Force General Charles Cabel, was asked to coordinate the air cover for the invasion.

... (Source: Three Men and a Barge", Teresa Riordan, Common Cause magazine, March/April 1990, and San Francisco Chronicle, May 7,1977, interview with Frank Sturgis in which he stated that "the reason we burglarized the Watergate was because Nixon was interested in stopping news leaking related to the photos of our role in the assassination of President John Kennedy.")

After Nixon's landslide victory in 1972,...The first thing Nixon did was to demand signed resignations of his entire government. "Eliminate everyone," he told John Ehrlichman about reappointment, "except George Bush. Bush will do anything for our cause." (Source: Pledging Allegiance, Sidney Blumenthal.)

On the day JFK was murdered, Nixon, Hunt and some of the Watergate crew were photographed in Dallas, as were a group of Cubans, one holding an umbrella up, like a signal, next to the President's limo just as Kennedy was shot. The Cubans can be seen holding up the signal umbrella in the Zapruder film and dozens of stills taken during the assassination. After the murder they can be seen calmly walking away.

...There are 4000 hours of Watergate tape. On the June 23, 1972, discussions with John Ehrlichman and Haldeman there is clear evidence that Nixon is openly "confessing" to hiring Hunt to kill JFK. That is why the Watergate "investigation" went into secret session after Congress heard some of the tapes. This is why only 12 hours of 4000 hours have been released to the public.

Paul Kangas is a private investigator in California. This article is reprinted from The Realist with permission.

(Ah, the plot sickens. spudnikboogie.gif )


Posted by: Mark Oct 6 2004, 09:22 PM
Hey JP, looks like the Bush has been dirty.

But isn't that the way it is for most? We have a small handful of honest men and women in our govt, and the rest are either too scared or are really uncompassionate beings for allowing so much to happen.

I've got a question, and since our resident law expert has been awol, I thought you might have an answer.

What branch of our govt do we have that can arrest the criminals in the whitehouse and try them for their crimes against humanity?

U.S. Marshalls?

I recall hearing something about that.

If that's the case... can't someone start rounding these criminals up in our govt before they kill more innocent women and children and strip away all of our rights while pretending to be protecting us?

Posted by: JEP Oct 7 2004, 10:44 AM
Hi Pupp,

I think the best methods to go after the Bush crime syndicate is to use the RICO Act of 1970. Then the FBI can criminally charge Bush and his thugs, and when that happens the US Martial's office comes in to collect them and put them in chains.

Bush lost lots of support when they invited the 911 stuff to make a platform to go after more oil booty. It was a massive scale up of Northwoods techniques.

I would say more, but "some" might get very upset. I will just say--give it a few months and watch what will happen. If Kerry gets in--it will make things much easier. So, vote for anybody but Bush. Get the Neo-cons out of the Pentagon and White House.


Posted by: JEP Oct 7 2004, 04:12 PM

I hope you all caught this from the JVB story. In the 60's, We all know cancers were rising, and lots of public concern over the nuke tests, Sr-90, and all these fluorides being linked to cancers. It even turned into a way to kill Castro.

We got all those stories on plutonium and being married to cancer in the Silkwood stories and Pu-239. What they forgot to tell everyone, is they made deals to marry lots more people with pollution that causes cancer.

It is the follow on years that show the rest of the story. Before Nixon got the presidency he was down at Tulane visiting Ochsner. Then, when Nixon got in he makes part of the Ft. Dietrick biowar lab into the National Cancer Institute. All the doctors are sucked into the communist issues by making industry causing cancer as OK, and not to be talked about. They made cancers just happen due to peoples DNA, and denied the toxic causation. Then Nixon makes the EPA to attempt to balance the equation.

Little problem is the EPA can hardly ever win against the big industries hushing up the pollution causing illnesses and the big medicine has turned into an extremely lucrative business.

Those are the very important parts to gleen from the JVB follow-on issues of cancer and pollutants.


Posted by: Mark Oct 7 2004, 06:25 PM
Thanks JP, I hoped you'd have an answer.

There's tons of evidence against these criminals. Question is, how long before we do the right thing. Soooo much needs fixing on this ole earth.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 8 2004, 05:21 AM
PuPP, you posted this on the "Stern" thread, but it bears repeating here in case some missed it. To me, it has "shock 'n awe" value. The question remains as to how long we will continue to go down the path of mental perversion and expect anything to change.

With some of those radio shows, our "animal" begins to follow the pack. Sucked into the vortex of entertainment and shock value. And it just gets worse and worse. I believe those behind the green curtain are using so many tactics all at the same time, slowly beating us down. Stern is just capitalizing on it The dirtier, the more people like it, so that's a reflection on society as a whole. Whomever has set up this society and whom has controlled the airwaves has allowed our society to degrade so that we also fit into the prophecies of the bible.

They have always been in control of what we see on tv, movies and cable and what we heard on radio. They shaped this society by what they allowed to happen.

Think about all of the drugs, the cancers, the diseases - newly created ones as well, the mysterious deaths of so many micro biologists, the flouride, mad cow, deer and elk disease, mercury in the fish and rivers, raw sewage flowing into our oceans and rivers, perpetual WARS, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods and many natural disasters.

And Squirrels drowning themselves -  ?

Dead ocean zones, pesticides and birth control pills contaminating rivers and lakes. Ocean fish stock depleted of 95% of all large fish. Marine life dying off, coral reefs dying, deforestation, tens of thousands of plant, insect and animal species going extinct every year, the sun is scorching us, and then we have chemtrails as they spray stuff in our skies.

Birds falling to the ground dead, whales and dolphins beaching themselves and dying in record numbers, artic pole is melting. And More War is to come.

It almost does fit the End Times stuff of the bible.

The dangerous vaccines, depleted uranium, 10,000 abuse cases against the pedophile Catholic clergy, Police State here in Amerika while Palestine, Chechnya and so many other nations are all being beat down too.

I just can't believe sometimes how bad things really are in some places. But as long as it's not in your neighborhood, everythings seems fine to most people.

Does it mean that it's the end?

Or was all of this all one big plan to begin with and hatched out on many fronts?

Someone sure is working hard at total destruction here.

handclap.gif handclap.gif handclap.gif

This needs no further comment.


Posted by: JEP Oct 8 2004, 09:47 AM
Hi All,

No doubt the end-times of Revelations are in progress and the world is steeped in Hell, for all around us there are lies. Especially from this Neo-Con, aka Zionist, White House.

The ole web pages get into this a lot, see:

You can look back and see the build up since the times of JFK. JFK was going to fire LBJ and have him prosecuted. So, LBJ the big Washington lobbyist for the Jews and Israel pulled a one up on JFK, with the help of Oak Ridge, Ruby, and the Jewish dominated press. If the Jews lost LBJ---the lost American cooperation. They did not want that to happen above all costs.

IKE used to keep the Israel problems down by telling them to go back when they started on a war jaunt. Then LBJ gets in and 67 Yum Kippur war happens and the Dimona nuclear bomb works give a religious state the power of nuclear bombs. Israel's prime minister, Bin Gurion, resigned when JFK went after the Dimona project, saying JFK would mean the death of Israel.

Then Nixon finially got in power and he is running around complaigning about all the Jew Boys in high places of Govt. that he inherited from LBJ. Even the Nixon tapes have Billy Graham and Dick talking about how Graham believed the Jews would ruin the country. 20/20 hindsight there.

What do we have today but the fruition of all those problems, the end-times of the Jews and the Jesus predictions on Revelations. It all comes from this mindset that the Jews are always guiltless, mostly because of these ill places messages on God.

The Old Testament's first five chapters are the Jewish Torah, the Book of Law for the Jews. Jesus did not like these old view, which is why we got into the New version. The Bible Narrative is essentially about two Gods, the vengefull one of the Jews, and the better one of Jesus. The views of Jesus are, by defintion, anti-Semetic and the Jews, by defintion, anti-Christ.

Like Michaelanglo suggested in his Moses statue for the Vatican's Pope, Moses version of God is more akin to the Satin aspect of religions falsehoods. And the God version of Jesus is the kind, loving, and non-nationalistic God.

Jesus and all his disciples knew this would all blow up in time, and that time is near.


Posted by: JEP Oct 8 2004, 10:12 AM

The interesting thing on the industry and environmental crisis, is that lots of these ideals started with IG Farben and links to Prescott Bush way back in the 30's, and now these ideals are screwing up the world and who is driving---another Bush.

Farben knew all about the florine problems and they were the first to come up with the fluorine based nerve gases. Europe found the problems of HF in the Meuse Vally problems connected with aluminum, which became a war time strategic metal.

It was in this time that the big pharmacy names were coming into power in Germany, names like Bayer and others. And the IG Farbens and Bushes were getting into this stuff, while at the same time the Rockefellers [standard oil] in the US were setting up the US medical system and the pharmacy methods to quell the effects of toxins on human health.

Now that has turned into a total monster, which is more used for population control by these Bush monsters than anything else. Fluoride was the first huge environmental problem in the Meuse Valley, and it caused all kinds of problems in London from the Pea Soup fogs in earlier years. And in the US, one can see the disasters like Donora, Pa. and the steel mills.

Then HF gets into the gasoline business for making high octain gas, and the workers that clean up these sytems have to be connected to ropes to get them out when they go down. They only last a couple years, then are permanent disabled.
Then connect in the Oak Ridge nuke business doing the same thing to workers with HF and the horrible stories like the one of Joe Harding from Paducah was extreme cases of fluoride effects on his joint tendons and later death via cancer.

Now, we have the some industry mafia that started it, sitting in the White House wanting more of the same.


Posted by: JEP Oct 8 2004, 10:35 AM

I think you all can now connect how the Bush syndicate starts back in the time of the 30s and Prescott Bush. This ties in lots of German things like IG Farben and Jewish pharmacy interests like Bayer and others.

The Bush syndicate stays in the nexus due to oil in the Gulf linked to Cuban Zapata oil fields, and here he is one of the lead plotters on Cuba take over.

Then onto the CIA, presidency----more oil field games in the middle east. Using the Israel issues to keep problem inflamed.

Now today, it is a mess. Cancer is rampid and almost every American is overdosed on toxic metals and especially fluorides. The effects actually set the aging and illness rates for everyone. That is why one of the most popular books on fluoride effects is titled "Fluoride-The Aging Factor."

So, we must define health care. First, nobody in the US has health care they all have sickness care. Health care would aim at preventing the illnesses and empower things like the EPA to have true powers to protect America's health.

Instead all of America is dupped into thinking illness care is health care.

This dupe started with the rise in oil and HF effects, and hit its pinnacle of problems with the JFK stuff, when cancer was even going to be a secret weapon against Castro. Then onto Nixon trying to set up the faked up health care in the minds of Americans by making a War on Cancer.

Any real war on cancer and any real health care would begin with cutting the toxics that induce the cancers in the first place, and this war on cancer is nothing but a make rich project for the pharmacy companies and big medicine that were all in cahoots with Rockefellers and the Bush/Farben types.

We don't have health care in America and we do need to correctly define the term and go off an attain this as a goal for the People of the US and really the world. The Peope need to learn not to be herded around like cattle or act like the mice in the UK, where the overpopulation effects often kill thousands that fall to their death off the White Cliffs.


Posted by: Mark Oct 8 2004, 11:52 AM

...nobody in the US has health care they all have sickness care. Health care would aim at preventing the illnesses ...

Any real war on cancer and any real health care would begin with cutting the toxics that induce the cancers in the first place, and this war on cancer is nothing but a make rich project for the pharmacy companies and big medicine that were all in cahoots with Rockefellers and the Bush/Farben types.


Posted by: Magnetron(nli) Oct 9 2004, 11:05 AM
Hi Pupp! I have thought for a long time the GHWB was probably one of the trigger men.That he was intimately involved, seems very evident.I have him figured as the fake cop on the grassy knoll. They saw him, and he just disappeared.Turns out his uniform was an unknown agency.It was different from local police.Whatever the case, truth is surely stranger than fiction.There wasa show about the life of RFK the other night, and they showed a picture of John Kerry sailing with the Kennedys.JFK and JFK on the same boat.Last night on the debate, Bush called Kerry, Senator Kennedy.It gets kind of eery sometimes.

Posted by: Mark Oct 9 2004, 06:14 PM
Hey magnetron,
There wasa show about the life of RFK the other night, and they showed a picture of John Kerry sailing with the Kennedys.JFK and JFK on the same boat.
One big happy family!

Last night on the debate, Bush called Kerry, Senator Kennedy. It gets kind of eery sometimes.

YIKES! shock.gif

Posted by: JEP Oct 10 2004, 07:46 AM
Hi Group,

I thought Bush-43 said "Senator Kennedy" in that town meeting too, but I was thinking my ears deceived me at first. Since, you heard the same thing---sounds like the ears were on target.

The ghost of JFK still haunts the Bushes. Now Kerry, with JFK initials, and it comes at them even stronger. The Bushes hated that Kennedy dynasty. It was the dynasty that appealed to the little guys, the disenfranchised. Just the opposite of the Bush syndicate.

The other thing the Bush syndicate hates is the trial lawyers, because all these medical doctors are running around feeling they are one malpractice lawsuit away from loosing everything. Bush-43 is playing into that market.

The medical doctors make money off one particular effect---the cumulative effects of fluoride over time. This effect causes the bulk of human illnesses. The bone burden of fluoride climbs with age, and health effects track the fluoride bone burdons. Human immune resistance retards with age, and it is dominated this F effect.

What this means is that all doctors may eventually come under one huge lawsuit that speaks to the fact they have all failed to warn the public of this effect, nor advised them of how to get real "health care" by avoiding the effect.

It all seems to have become a war on cancer when Nixon consulted with Ochsner in New Orleans to set this plan in action as some way to defeat communism. Now it has become the beast of the End-Times.


Posted by: Mark Oct 10 2004, 03:13 PM
The medical doctors make money off one particular effect---the cumulative effects of fluoride over time. This effect causes the bulk of human illnesses. The bone burden of fluoride climbs with age, and health effects track the fluoride bone burdons. Human immune resistance retards with age, and it is dominated this F effect.

Isn't it nice of THEM to also put it in our toothpaste as well as our tap water?

Why would anyone create, produce and distribute a toxin/poison that is designed to be used in our mouths?

"Ye shall know them by their fruits"

Posted by: JEP Oct 11 2004, 10:28 AM
Hi Pupp,

Good to see you are noticing all the fluoride problems. Now, let us tie in some of the remaining timeline pieces to JFK.

JFK had an extreme health problem from Adrenal Gland insufficiency, or progressive Addison's Disease. The adrenal gland is ajacent the kidneys. Guess what is connected to this---fluorides.

Perhaps his Catholic upbringing and Wine set up some pre-natal issues with Rose----as fluoride was used as a stop fermentation for wines. Wines used to cause all kinds of health problems in alcoholics. Only in recent time, has fluoride content in wines been controlled. No doubt this effect would get into JFK's worsening health effect also.

JFK almost died time five or six times over his depressed immune system effects from this adrenal problem. And one big issue for persons with this is to avoid fluoride in water, as it makes the problem worse. Ever notice Ft. Dietrick does not have fluoride in their water supply, wonder why? Or 200 or so EPA scientists are all crying fowl on fluoridation?

JFK was also into the space race and the largest fluorine plants besides the ones connected to the Manhattan Project was one at Cape Canaveral to make fluorine as rocket fuel. The Cape had the largest fluorine production plant in the US. It was initially selected because it was the most extreme of chemical oxidizers and provided the most rocket lift per unit mass. Problem was fluorine was so dangerous and so harmfull to health from emissions that they had to stop using it.

So, one can begin to note that since JFK had all these immune problems and was connecting F with even his own health problems. That the days for NASA's use of fluorine stopped-----and soon the same fate would happen for Oak Ridge. One huge problem was the Atomic Energy Act called for any and all measures to insure the production of nuclear weapons. There was no way around using fluorine for bomb making and poisoning workers and plant communities.

Then we get into the issues of JVB and fluorides as one of the adjuvant methods to induce cancers.

In Oak Ridge, there was a way around JFK---they killed him. And the US health has pretty much gone to Hell ever since.

Now, all the pieces should fall into place. We need a good number of busses loaded with US Martials to haul off the crooks in Oak Ridge and an even larger number in DC.


Posted by: JEP Oct 11 2004, 11:09 AM

First Demonstration of Throttling of Hydrogen-Fluorine Thrust Chamber at NASA Lewis Research Center
Topic: First View this topic by decade -->

During December 1958, NASA Lewis Research Center successfully demonstrated the first use of fluorine gas to provide reliable ignition for practical a hydrogen-oxygen engine (20K thrust). The same year the first throttling of a hydrogen-fluorine thrust chamber was demonstrated over a wide range.

Posted by: Mark Oct 11 2004, 10:35 PM
We need a good number of busses loaded with US Martials to haul off the crooks in Oak Ridge and an even larger number in DC.



Posted by: JEP Oct 13 2004, 04:45 AM
Hi Pupp,

Speed of the Govt. is something almost non-existant. The speed to which the Govt. will move is only ushered by how many can find the truth and demand the changes.

Examples of their expedience: They cannot even get into the real factors on why Lincoln was shot. Similarly, they can't get to the bottom line on reasons JFK was shot.

Are there similarities on why JFK was shot? Did the JFK interest free US Notes play a factor?

Was RFK shot by similar methods? Is there "Nothing is easier than to find a fanatic to strike?" Like an Arab Sir Han aggrivated at RFK's support of planes for Israel.

IS Bush not filling these same coffers with huge levels of US Debts? Most would call this treason. Interesting read below, and really the whole URL's quotes.


BISMARCK (Otto von Bismarck Schonhausen). 19th c. German politician.

The division of the United States into two federations of equal force was decided long before the Civil War by the High Financial Power of Europe. These bankers were afraid that the United States, if they remained in one block and as one nation, would attain economical and financial independence, which would upset their financial domination over the world. The voice of the Rothschilds predominated. They foresaw tremendous booty if they could substitute two feeble democracies, indebted to the Jewish financiers, to the vigorous republic, confident and self-providing. Therefore, they started their emissaries in order to exploit the question of slavery and thus to dig an abyss between the two parts of the republic. Lincoln never suspected these underground machinations. He was anti-slavery, and he was elected as such. But his character prevented him from being the man of one party. When he had affairs in his hands, he perceived that these sinister financiers of Europe, the Rothschilds, wished to make him the executor of their designs.

They made the rupture between the North and the South imminent! The masters of finance in Europe made this rupture definitive in order to exploit it to the utmost. Lincoln's personality surprised them: they thought to easily dupe the candidate woodcutter. But Lincoln read their plots and soon understood that the South was not the worst foe, but the Jewish fi nanciers. He did not confide his apprehensions; he watched the gestures of the Hidden Hand; he did not wish to expose publicly the questions which disconcert the ignorant masses. He decided to eliminate the international bankers, by establishing a system of loans, allowing the states to borrow directly from the people without intermediary. He did not study financial questions, but his robust good sense revealed to him that the source of any wealth resides in the work and economy of the nation. He opposed emissions through the international financiers. He obtained from the Congress the right to borrow from the people by selling to it the bonds of the states. The local banks were only too glad to help such a system. And the government and the nation escaped the plots of foreign financiers. They understood at once that the United States would escape their grip. The death of Lincoln was resolved upon. Nothing is easier than to find a fanatic to strike.

The death of Lincoln was a disaster for Christendom. There was no man in the United States great enough to wear his boots. And Israel went anew to garner the riches of the world. I fear that Jewish banks with their craftiness and tortuous tricks will entirely control the exuberant riches of America and will use it to systematically corrupt modern civilization. The Jews will not hesitate to plunge the whole of Christendom into wars and chaos in order that "the earth should become the inheritance of Israel." (Interview by C. Seim, La Vieille France, March, 1921.)

Bismarck's first Reichstag speech was 'anti-Semitic' (Treitschke, Deutsche Geschichte im xix Jarhundert), and this continued to be his general attitude - with occasional "art of the possible" political compromises. In the American tragedy, the agitation for 'abolition' was spearheaded by Jewish refugees from the abortive European revolutions of 1848. Financing for Union and Confederacy came from the same European banking network: August Schonberg "Belmont" was the intermediary to the North, and Judah Benjamin to the South. Lincoln greatly upset the Eastern Establishment bankers by issuing non-interest-bearing "Greenback" currency, when the interest rates they demanded became prohibitive. His assassin was a half-Jew, according to the Booth family biographer, Stanley Kimmel (The Mad Booths of Maryland).

Posted by: JEP Oct 13 2004, 06:04 AM

It appeears the Jews are trying to provoke tensions in the Holy Land. And their hatred for the Jesus types becomes highly evident. See:

Christians In Jerusalem Want
Jews To Stop Spitting On Them
By Amiram Barkat

A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a
meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned
to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window.
When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.

Posted by: JEP Oct 13 2004, 06:35 AM
Hi Pupp,

Here is something else for you to ponder. We all worry about how late it is. If you will, Consider all these nuclear weapons workers in the news of late and all of them manipulated to think how "radiation" has poisoned them and given so many cancer. Often pre-eminent is the NTS downwinders out in Utah, who all claim radiation-----but omit the even more obvious.

When, in fact, they were first poisoned by SV-40 delivered in Salk Polio vaccines. This gives the pre-disposition toward cancers as the immune system is insulted by radiation, fluoride, and toxic metals.

Did you ever take note that Salk is a highly Jewish surname, especially the name Jonas Salk. Places like Eli Lilly helped make these Sv-40 contaminated vaccines.

Eli Lilly is largely owned by the Quail family, as in Dan Quail, the VP for Bush-41. The Bush-41 that went to work for Lilly after his CIA term.

Oak Ridge is the place that came up with the "deceit and treachery" methods of using all these sick nuke workers to promote something other than these vaccine mistakes is giving something like 60% of American's cancers.

And all the while radiation is being put down as the prime blame in the publics eyes, the Bush-43 types are off making laws that give these people that poisoned more than half of America Congressional indemnities. Jewish persons and phamacutical interests go free from killing US citizens.

And we wonder why the US Govt and CIA conceil these Judyth Baker Castro Cancer issues. It is the smoking gun of the death dealt to all of America via Jewish controlled interests. And JFK.

Did JFK understand the Jewish problems?---He--as much or even more than Lincoln and all those who saw these state within a state problems in the History of Europe.


Posted by: JEP Oct 13 2004, 07:24 AM
Hi All,

I think, since it is essentially too late for billions of people, that they all deserve the truth. For that can set people free. Love won't buy much here, only what Jesus got.

You should begin to see and understand why I demand free nationalized health care for all of America. It is part of Justice seeking and having those that caused harm pay due reparation to those harmed. Truth health care can only be achieved when the Govt. is monetarily responsible for the citizens health.

A huge blow was directed toward America's health due to these careless vaccine methods. This started things into very wrong directions. The directions are cover up, deceit and treachery, avoidance of Justice and Responsibilty toward the citizens that were harmed.

Reparation here, in terms of health care, shall mean both free illness care for all, as well as real health care----where the toxics that cause these immune system problem will be publically addressed and the full truth told. The citizens will become empowered to sue polluters and put this money into health funds.

Part of this truth will be the underlying issues linked to JFK's death cover up and the Judyth Baker story. SV-40 biologically poisoned half of America or more. Radiation, fluorides, toxic metals and other chemical are carcinogen activators by suppression of immune defenses.

The War on Cancer is fake---because nothing---not even stem cell research---will get around the deactivation of immune systems by agents like fluoride. All the war on cancer has done is change "health care" into "illness care" and make false promisses on billions spent for failed research. It also converted resistance to communism into every MD in the US suppressing these illness causation issues being linked to national security projects. National security cannot be defined as suppression of the truths that lead to such wide spead harm to the citizens for which this republic is supposed to stand.

You all are invited to spead the word and support the return of the Govt to the People for which it stands, and not the seditious crooks that have taken over.


Posted by: Mark Oct 13 2004, 04:11 PM
Hi JP,

Regarding the civil war, yes it was financed on both sides from those who would gain from it. THEY have been masters of manipulation for centuries.

They foresaw tremendous booty if they could substitute two feeble democracies, indebted to the Jewish financiers, to the vigorous republic, confident and self-providing. Therefore, they started their emissaries in order to exploit the question of slavery and thus to dig an abyss between the two parts of the republic.

From what I've learned, Jewish merchant ships were primarily responsible for the arrival of most african slaves to America and Europe.

Now why did THEY slaughter almost all of the indian natives?
(except for those allowed to survive and then interbred with)

Millions and millions of natives were slaughtered, their gold and lands stolen, and then in some places they have now replaced with africans - (Haiti is a good example) Though there is ample evidence that africans or those with negroid features inhabited Central & S America many centuries ago.

Could it be that many of the natives who were slaughtered were kind, gentle, sharing and loving peoples? YUP!

From Christopher Columbus's Log:

"They brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned. They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features. They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of sugar cane. They would make fine servants. With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."

And so the conquest began, and the Thanotocracy -- the regime of death -- was inaugurated on the continent the Indians called "Turtle Island." (Tortue, Tortuga)
You probably already know a good piece of the story: How Columbus's Army took Arawak and Taino people prisoners and insisted that they take him to the source of their gold, which they used in tiny ornaments in their ears. And how, with utter contempt and cruelty, Columbus took many more Indians prisoners and put them aboard the Nina and the Pinta -- the Santa Maria having run aground on the island of Hispañola (today, the Dominican Republic and Haiti). When some refused to be taken prisoner, they were run through with swords and bled to death. Then the Nina and the Pinta set sail for the Azores and Spain. During the long voyage, many of the Indian prisoners died. Here's part of Columbus's report to Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain:
"The Indians are so naive and so free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When you ask for something they have, they never say no. To the contrary, they offer to share with anyone." Columbus concluded his report by asking for a little help from the King and Queen, and in return he would bring them "as much gold as they need, and as many slaves as they ask."

Also, I think Lincolns stance on africans may not have been all that positive from some words I have read.

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races... that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races. . . . I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
~ Abraham Lincoln, in an 1858 debate

But he is right in one line if he did say that.

and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races

That's a fact, and it's not being racist, it just is.

I agree JEP, healthcare - NOT ILLNESS CARE - should be free since the reason for so many illnesses and medical problems came from THEM to begin with.

We need to take back the news media and to abolish the federal reserve.

We will wipe out all of Americas debt to the bankers - since it was all a plan to rip us off to begin with and it has no justification for loaning money at interest when the US govt could have been printing and issuing their OWN US Notes.

"The rich rule over the poor and the borrower is the lenders slave"

Imagine the world we could have when the truth can be known to all who seek it and a world where we can all share instead of take.

Posted by: JEP Oct 14 2004, 01:05 PM
Hi Pupp,

I agree. Interesting on Columbus. Seems as I recall he was from the island of Corsica in the Med., and this was where Napoleon was originally from. Same rugged little island did all the heroin drug stuff and developed the harsh Mafia codes.

I think you should be seeing via the Judyth discussion why John Dean said to Nixon: " there is a cancer on the Presidency" or something close to that. Nixon, in getting caught spying on the Democrats, was about to open up the huge cancer secret from the Cuban mess. Not to mention that JFK was a conspiracy, a patsy, and run a lot like the Lincoln power change.

You can also see why many persons call Cancer a racket. It is because the same companies that made the SV-40 contaminated polio vaccines, now get to make all kinds of other drugs to make even more profits.

When they found the SV-40 effect in the late 50's and early 60s, they kept on using it. They claimed they would come back and fix that issue later. They have fixed it in such a way to absolve themselves of all faults and liabilities, and make even more vast sums of money.

We don't see how the Citizens have been protected from this vaccine problem that now affects more than 60% of the citizens. We have seen only how crooked the CIA types tied to Donnovan originally, have been able to cover up such a huge damage factor. This huge mistake comes right out of the poor, sick, and dyings bank accounts.

Then the baton was passed to Nixon and the NCI at Ft. Dietrich stuff started and the powerless EPA created. If we were serious on the health care issue, we would insure and be up in arms over these 200 whistleblowers the EPA keeps harassing on the fluoride health effects cover ups.

It is pretty late for most Americans, millions died already---billion more to go from the maligancy on the presidents. Yes---plural now.

When America can't even get the issues on the biblical narrative correct, will they ever get anything correctly exposed? Jesus wanted the Old Testament preserved so that everyone could see for themselves the bad concepts of the Torah. Just because the Torah is included in the bible does not mean it is God's word, but almost all the religion sects in the US say this is so. They have tacitly endorsed the Jewish reign over their lives---the Jewish book of law. When they should have seen that the Old was replaced by the New. The Old Testament religion types like that tithe statement, and don't tell people the truth.

The Jews still hate the Jesus issurrection. Jesus was the original anti-semetic. That became an epidemic too---as most saw the Jesus way as better.

The Jews hate the Jesus insurrection almost as much as the Pope hated the Flourence insurrection with Martin Luther. And right in the middle of it was Michaelangelo getting in his hits. Epic masterpiece hits like the Creation on the ceiling of the Sistine and the statue of Moses with horns. The Creation veiled meanings show God as a creation of man, as disected from the Moses problems. And Moses with horns akin more to the great satan.

Until American wakes up as to what has been deceived of them on relgion, on health, on the great evils of money / power. There will be no hope for America. They will be exploited into fulling the coffers of the Fed Res bankers to go on more war loving crusades for the Bonesmen and the Rothchilds.

Lets see if the truth will empower these Americans to do something other than be lead to the slaughter.


Posted by: JEP Oct 14 2004, 02:07 PM
More---couple of hot little items:

Michael Moore Says 'We Are Doomed' Unless Kerry Wins

Get this article from MM---he is called Left-wing---when he is really right down the center.\Politics\archive\200410\POL20041014a.html



LUXEMBOURG, October 14, 2004 (ENS) - European environment ministers are
planning to limit fluoridated greenhouse gases, which are thousands of
times more damaging to the climate than carbon dioxide. Read Full Text

Posted by: Mark Oct 14 2004, 05:54 PM
Jesus wanted the Old Testament preserved so that everyone could see for themselves the bad concepts of the Torah. Just because the Torah is included in the bible does not mean it is God's word, but almost all the religion sects in the US say this is so. They have endorsed the Jewish reign over their lives---the Jews of book of the law. When they should have seen that the Old was replaced by the New.

I've tried to debate and present that issue here at this forum and I don't like talking about religion, but I am met with such a negative response, that I can no longer attempt to enlighten those who are too set in their beliefs/programming.

But I am glad that others can see it.

Thank you JP! spot.gif

Just because the Torah is included in the bible does not mean it is God's word,

I totally agree!

Moses with HORNS!

user posted image

Posted by: JEP Oct 14 2004, 07:13 PM
Hi Pupp,

Excellent photo of Moses with horns. I was looking for one like that, but never could manage to dig one up. I must put this one in the file. Thanks.

Yeah, it is a real problem beginning to tell people some of what they were told is not exactly right. The power of the evangelicals to engage in mind control is unreal. Money!!

Some days, I think were are living a version of Star Trek and we have encountered the Borg and their assimilation methods. All the mil / ind methods do tend to kill off essential parts of the body and they do try to assimilate everyone to their methods. But Kirk and others had a higher calling. I like those with the higher calling. Perhaps the ultimate of logic and truth from a Spock would be better than the highest priest in this day and time. Those vulcans know their volcanos too!!! And know why Moses has horns.

These resistant to learn religion people need to study European history sometime. But we know how lazy Americans are. Perhaps Vapid is a better word. In place of mad hatters, we now have IQ challenged mindless fluoriated public water consumers.

It was real interesting in those times of the Fluorintines, first Dante and his hell. Then the Martin Luther and his nails, and Michaelanglo. They were the intellects of the last two millenia evidently. All that challege from Tuscany.

I guess the assimilation methods are starting to fail, since the JVB story is showing that much of the American Public has been infected with a virus of the type they wanted to kill Castro with. Now we know just how much the corrupted Govt respects those it is suppose to serve.

JVB needs to be highly recognized for helping pull that into the publics attention, especially right here before election time. It helps to expose just what kinds of games the Bush-43 crime family will try to protect these poisoners of human health on a massive scale.

I was chatting with several of Judyth friends here and there and one of the more informed and helpful shared some more documents that support her stories. Here are a few on links:


Posted by: Mark Oct 14 2004, 09:33 PM
Hey JP, I downloaded all of the images and resized them. Here's 2 for this thread page. They are still quite large.

user posted image


user posted image


Posted by: JEP Oct 15 2004, 01:22 PM
Thanks for the file conversions.

"The men who create power make an indispensable contribution to the nation's greatness, but the men who question power make a contribution just as indispensable. . . for they determine whether we use power or power uses us." --John Kennedy

Remember there is a place called "Camelot." Where all freedom fighters become knights of the round table. For it is human nature to appreciate equality, truth, and justice, and abhor treachery and deceit.

JFK's quest for peace and the promissed land will come to be fullfilled.



Posted by: BJ1 Oct 15 2004, 05:10 PM
Ahem...It would be funny if it weren't so serious. You guys think Christians are blind, and we think you are! Each side has intelligent people, well-educated.

Are we all blind men looking at each other trying to paint a picture of a rainbow or a lovely sunset so the other side can see it? Since neither side can do that, we resort to calling each other blind or programmed or...stupid...or....wacko...

Yeah, that'll show 'em. Condescention makes a lot of friends on both sides. Forget dialogue.


Posted by: JEP Oct 15 2004, 06:42 PM
Hi BJ,

You might clue me into your comments some. I am not connecting. I thought most everyone hanging around here was Pro-Jesus oriented.

I don't seem to recall anyone on this thread getting into name calling, such as whack-O and etc.

Even when we get into Camelot story, it appears more to be an issue of JFK discoving the sufferings of Jesus' family--if he got into the legends of the Holy Family having to flee the Pharasee.

There are lots of parallels in the Camelot imagery to those of Jesus ideals.


Posted by: Mark Oct 15 2004, 07:12 PM
You guys think Christians are blind, and we think you are!

I've never said that.

But I didn't realize that you think I'm blind for seeing the contradictions in the bible from the OT to the NT.

I'd say that I'm able to step aside from the conditioned programming and try and think for myself and to form my own conclusions on what I have read.

My advice is ALWAYS for everyone to think for themselves and to never rely on the words of another unless it agrees with your own commom sense and reasoning - like the Buddha quote below in my signature.

Now where did I put my danged bi-focals at?


P.S. I have also said that religion has been a tool to divide us and I am witnessing it happen here at this forum.

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 16 2004, 04:40 AM
...but I am met with such a negative response, that I can no longer attempt to enlighten those who are too set in their beliefs/programming.

That's a direct quote from you, PuPP. Programming! As though we, who believe the God of the OT, have no intellect of our own to discern the truth. Such arrogance! As though we needed "enlightenment". This old head needs no enlightenment from you or anybody else on the subject of the Bible or the God of the Hebrews.

And for you, JEP, here's this:

Yeah, it is a real problem beginning to tell people some of what they were told is not exactly right.
(This was used in conjunction with the Evangelicals. Sometimes they are called "Fundies".)

What exactly would YOU tell the people? That the God of the Hebrews is\was a killer without mercy, with no deity able to withstand His hand? If so, then how was Jesus, a man, able to overcome such a powerful God? And why is this same God not slaying numbers of people today who do not abide by the Laws and who worship idols? Who defeated Him? Is He dead?

Where were any of us who were in the Beginning who can tell the story of the beginning of all things so that we should hear with the ear and see with the eye?


Posted by: JEP Oct 16 2004, 05:09 AM
Hi BJ,

Since you seem to be in agreement that there are problems with the OT about that version of God, and that the NT is the better ideals. I don't see what the issue is about. We all basically agree. I think that is all Pupp was saying.

My statements are about generalizations that Ike said long ago about telling people the truth about these flaws in religious beliefs. Ike refrained from telling the entire country, though he knew well.

My statements are about varied religions that make the global statement that the entire Bible narrative is the word of God. I think you are inclined to agree that there are two Gods presented between those pages crusted with gold. And that one cannot serve two masters.

I think the bottom line remains that, as best I can tell, that everyone is in favor of the NT and Jesus version. How else could we all be talking about all this mess of stuff leading up to revelations and the big conflagation? All the Zionist mess that keeps rearing its head again and again.

I think sometimes, when some of us tend to talk along the lines of some Christian evangelists don't quite have things correct or present them correctly---that you tend to include yourself. I don't think that either I or Pupp know you well to make such a comment.

If we were to speak of Robert and Tammy Faye, who all claim to be Christians, would you also put yourself in with this basket of actions and beliefs?

We don't all believe exactly the same things as Christians, we all don't even believe in the same version of God. Mine involves natural orders, nature, and knowledge. But we do believe, and that is what all should have in common.

Would you disagree? I think you are tending to say that our belief is vastly different than yours, and I don't think this is quite the case. I do protest.

I do think all that has been said to date is the when the Bible lists the Torah and fails to explain to children and adults that the Torah is there, then there is a tacit endorsement of this version of God. It would tend to confuse and mislead people to not explain it. And I can't make comment about what you have said on this issue, but I sure can as it relates to various southern preachers I have encountered here in the Bible Belt. I refer mainly to those that fail to fully inform their flock and act as good shepards.

I guess, I need to ask how it is that you inserted your name there and the whole of christendom as being different from that?


Posted by: Mark Oct 16 2004, 05:52 AM
That's a direct quote from you, PuPP. Programming! As though we, who believe the God of the OT, have no intellect of our own to discern the truth. Such arrogance! As though we needed "enlightenment". This old head needs no enlightenment from you or anybody else on the subject of the Bible or the God of the Hebrews.

Did I mention your name?

I'm sorry if you realize that you are programmed in your beliefs, I've tried to open your eyes, I even provided scriptures, but of course, you know everything.

I'm only 42 and a man so I know nothing.

But I can see the contradictions in the Old Testament compared to the NT.

It's at least 2 different LORDS. I'm sorry you cannot see it yet.

Perhaps you never will.

So do me a favor, stay off of any threads dealing with religion if you cannot control yourself and resort to insults.

That is uncool and not appreciated.

Heck, I don't need this....

I'll just shut down this forum and go back to watching Brady Bunch reruns while the world goes to hell.

Divided by religion - the game plan still works thousands of years later!

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 16 2004, 06:14 AM
Thank you, JEP, for responding. No, we don't know each other, nor can in a few posts made expressing our beliefs. I think I've made mine quite clear and wish not to be insulted by those who think I need "enlightenment". Those should take the beam out of their own eye and leave my slivver alone. It matters not to me what others believe; I just don't need to have their views crammed down my throat in just about every topic.

That having been said, I turn my attention to this that you wrote:

My statements are about varied religions that make the global statement that the entire Bible narrative is the word of God. I think you are inclined to agree that there are two Gods presented between those pages crusted with gold. And that one cannot serve two masters.

No, I am not inclined to agree that there are two Gods presented in the pages of the Bible. There is God and then there are gods. God said: I CHANGE NOT. And I am grateful He never changes or we would be thrown into confusion forever. He keeps His word. That makes Him dependable. Would that we would all do likewise.

And this:

If we were to speak of Robert and Tammy Faye, who all claim to be Christians, would you also put yourself in with this basket of actions and beliefs?
Please don't limit it to these! You can throw the top evangelists in that basket. They preach for money and money alone, no matter their denial. Also, involved with "Reverand" Moon. All are politicians under the skin.

I learned from reading from the Apostle Peter that being called Christian was no great thing, but that we should rise above the herd mentality, striving for Spiritual understanding. (What's in a name anyway?) This I have tried to do. I first strive for the wisdom of a thing, then get as much knowledge as I can, and then get the understanding of the thing. Then live it as best I can.

The prophets of old prophecied much of what is in Revelations. It is like a mirror reading. Now why would an evil God prophecy His own demise and extinction? Plumb damn foolishness, if you ask me. He wouldn't have had the intellect to have created the heavens and the Earth.

It seems odd to me that folks will examine a diamond more closely than that of their beliefs. Where is the anchor when we allow ourselves to be blown here and there by every wind that changes direction? Why should I be expected to change my beliefs if I see what I think to be an inferior theory? Like Patton, I say NUTS to that noise. If any wishes to "enlighten" me, show the proof of their ambitious theories. It should be there. Otherwise, why not cease the attacks? Are we not all reasonable thinkers here? Or did I miss something in the translation that we should RESPECT each others' positions on matters of personal importance?


Posted by: BJ1 Oct 16 2004, 06:50 AM
So do me a favor, stay off of any threads dealing with religion if you cannot control yourself and resort to insults.

I am not the one who started the insults. You are injecting your personal beliefs in many threads. I do not do this unless a Christian topic is presented or you make a comment that leaves the door open for further discussion. You are the one who doesn't like his ideas challenged.

I posted scientific fact concerning geological findings, carbon dating, findings on DNA that haven't changed for 75,000,000 years. There was no one to challenge my findings! If they are in error, why not?

PuPP, I never wanted animosity between us. At this time, I feel you think it OK to insult not only my intelligence, but those of the entire Christian community. It would have been better if I had not thought of this as a board to promote unity in our quest for a better world instead of who is riding the biggest spiritual horse. Are the blind leading the blind here?


Posted by: Mark Oct 16 2004, 07:36 AM
No, I am not inclined to agree that there are two Gods presented in the pages of the Bible

The bible (biblio) is a collection of ancient scrolls and books from different eras spanning centuries.

The actions/words of the LORD(s) alone should be a clue that it's not always a loving entity(s).

"Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori'ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."
~ Genesis 22:2

What loving entity would want you to offer your child for a burnt sacrifice?

"And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters"
~Jeremiah 19:9

HMMM, sounds absolutely disgusting.

"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not."
~ Leviticus 10:1

"And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."
~ Leviticus 10:2

Wow, the LORD killed them over an incense offering. What a nice guy!

BJ, do you even read these scriptures? Or just skip over them?

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 16 2004, 09:53 AM
PuPP, I stayed in the Scriptures for over two years, so hungry was I to seek the truth of God. I immersed myself in them to be "there" while reading, watching, as it were the unfolding events. I started over in Genesis five times and got a pretty good education.

What I came to understand was that in forming a monotheistic people, God laid down strict rules concerning ceremonies, which involved incense and incense burning, sacrifices, priestly garments, the layout of the temple, and so on. What He was effecting here was going to be a whole lot different from the neighboring nations that worshipped many gods. The Israelis were to be a peculiar people, UNIQUE among men. Now you have to keep in mind at least the concept of a GREAT AND SUPREME GOD who would be treated with great respect.

Now we have this scenario:

"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not."
~ Leviticus 10:1

The words "offered strange fire before the LORD" is key here. Strange fire, whatever that is (unclean?), was offered to the gods of Egypt. And so...

"And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."
~ Leviticus 10:2

Note who these two were...the sons of Aaron, the high priest! There is no partiality shown here. They KNEW better than to do that, so it was nothing more than an act of rebellion against their father, Aaron.

These laws had a certain prophetic ring to them in order to remind the Israelites of the coming Messiah. They are so deep in the prophetic that most of us can't see them, including me, but some we can. This was more a FORM of the future from which the prophets drew much of their understanding.

If you read the Psalms of David, he praises the Commandments and Precepts, himself being a great prophet.

What I am trying to convey, with pitiful words, is that the form of worship had to continue until Christ. It kept the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah always in mind. How soon man forgets!

I had a ball in the Bible! I was there when Moses went up into the Mount. I saw the dark clouds and lightening and thunder, felt the ground shake under my feet. Later I realized that God gave the warning to the people to stay their distance so that they wouldn't be killed because of the Glory of God coming down.

This is all so hard for me to put in words. I have it in my head and in my heart, but not on my tongue...kinda like Moses. Where's an "Aaron"!


Posted by: JEP Oct 17 2004, 04:48 PM

I don't seek to insult you or "Christians" of you similar orientation, but I do seek to be able to speak my opinions and beliefs here, engage in civil discussions, and to be able to disagree with others. I would also uphold the same for you.

I think I have listened enough now to say that I do disagree with much of your vision of God and interpretations of the Biblical narratives from your explorations of Genesis, et al. I do hear what you say, and most times I chose not to follow up with comment.

I don't take it as an insult if you disagree with me, and I think I would expect that same from you in discussions held here.

I do more agree with Pupp.

In the interest of keeping on this threads subject of JFK, that is all I am going to say.


Posted by: JEP Oct 17 2004, 04:55 PM

The pages on this thread seem to keep growing. Have you noticed this?
I am not talking about the normal growth rate due to adding more discussions at the end of the tread.

I used to get into page 6 and get what is now on page 10 or so. It seems like something changing in the middle somewhere. Or perhaps the page lengths have been modified.


Posted by: Mark Oct 17 2004, 05:06 PM

The pages on this thread seem to keep growing. Have you noticed this?
I am not talking about the normal growth rate due to adding more discussions at the end of the tread.

Hey JP,

I re-set the forum to display 15 posts instead of 25 per thread due to the volume of some images in various threads.

Sorry I didn't make an announcement.


Posted by: JEP Oct 17 2004, 05:44 PM
Hi Pupp,

Ah, that explains it. Faster load times. Thanks.

Getting back into the more purist JFK discussion issues. I was chatting with JVB on emails some weeks back and she was telling me that LHO came to Oak Ridge. She says by catching a flight out of Alabama.

So, I have been chasing that down some. I ran into Mike Piper on Email recently and found some more links to this. He says he brings it up in his book, "Final Judgement," that Oswald "signed into" Oak Ridge. He is also hot onto the Israel theme and large money brokers.

He is telling me that author Howard Livingstone, in one of his JFK books, exposes a Jewish oriented uranium connected company operating in the Dal-Tex building. And also speaks to shots coming from the Dal-Tex building.

Hummm, I think the plot is thickening faster now. Dang near solid concrete. Off to chase these down,


Posted by: JEP Oct 17 2004, 06:32 PM

"That’s actually the closet of a uranium-mining operation that’s a CIA front. "

"In his book Triangle of Fire, Bob Goodman stated that the west side of the Dal-Tex building, i.e. facing Dealey Plaza, housed the offices of the Dallas Uranium and Oil company on the third floor [17]. Although believed to be owned by H.L. Hunt, Dallas Uranium and Oil was not a registered company and appears to have been a "front" [17]. "

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 18 2004, 04:53 AM
I don't take it as an insult if you disagree with me, and I think I would expect that same from you in discussions held here.

JEP, I will add this and then we can get back on topic. I have said that what you believe is personal and you are entitled to that, the same as I am. What is driving my replies is the tone of the comments in your posts that seems to indicate that people who believe, contrary to your thoughts, are somehow deficient in intelligence and unable to think for themselves.

At no time have I EVER suggested that either you or PuPP lacked intelligence or were being led by the nose to believe what you do. I expect the same respect from you because you are no more intelligent, nor are you more spiritually advanced, than the rest of us.

Would that you would place comments about religious beliefs in the religious category. I could leave it alone there, but when the subject comes up in a post, off topic, you leave the door wide open for rebuttal, not to challenge your belief, but to defend mine.


Posted by: JEP Oct 18 2004, 02:19 PM
A pontifical moment....

Matt 15
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Titus 1
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 18 2004, 02:34 PM
Titus 1
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Sorry, I didn't know you must be one of the circumsised. oops2.gif

Even the devil can quote Scripture, you know.


Posted by: Mark Oct 18 2004, 02:46 PM
user posted image

user posted image

"God told me to strike at al-Qaida and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
~ G.W. Bush

user posted image

Posted by: BJ1 Oct 18 2004, 02:54 PM
PuPP, you are precious! I had to bustingupNEW3.gif

You got the last word on this! lilhearts.gif


Posted by: JEP Oct 18 2004, 03:42 PM
Outstanding photos Pupp!! I think all can agree on Bush's anti-Christ liazon.

Yes BJ, I do take note you are excellent at quoting the "circumcised" and spending two plus years in the study of Genesis. I sense a lot of logically challenged deductions from you.

Shall you get into Moses' God being the study of volcanoes and using the toxic methods gleened there to poison the young of Egypt to secure freedom. Today, Moses' methods would be called war crimes.

Volcanos are rich in hydrogen fluoride and just a little goes a long way in killing little ones. In comparison, look at the problems with SIDS and the fluoride coatings on baby beds.

You appear to be close with the anti-christ. Sad.


Posted by: JEP Oct 18 2004, 05:43 PM
The anti-Christ at higher levels:

Posted by: JEP Oct 18 2004, 05:47 PM
Interesting observations of those that chose the snake worship and indefensibility.

BLAVATSKY, HELENA. 19th c. occultist.

The Brazen Serpent of Moses was worshipped by the Israelites as a god; being the symbol of Esmun-Asklepius, the Phoenician Iao. Indeed, the character of Satan himself is introduced in the first book of Cbronicles in the act of instigating King David to number the Israelitish people, an act elsewhere declared specifically to have been moved by Jehovah himself [Cf. I Chronicles 21:1 and II Samuel 24:1; Editor] . The inference is unavoidable that the two, Satan and Jehovah, were regarded as identical. (Isis Unveiled, vol. 2)

This, and Madam Blavatsky's other major work, The Secret Doctrine, are rife with references to the Jewish god, Jehovah or YHVH, as essentially a demonic force. it was for this reason, Blavatsky believed, that the Jews have always maintained such clandestinity in all matters pertaining to the god - to the point of keeping secret the true pronunciation of its name. And, in fact, there is even a ritual condemnation to death of those who discuss these matters with non-Jews. It is the twelfth of the Eighteen Benedictions, recited regularly in synagogues, and it is directed against malashim ("Informers").


BUXDORF, JOHANNES. 17th c. German Hebraist. One of the great experts on Jewish literature, he eventually became 'anti-Semitic' after long exposure to Gentile-hating Talmudic works. So thorough was Buxdorf's scholarship, and so vast his learning, that works like his Synagoga Judaica have never successfully been 'refuted,' and the Jewish attitude seems to have been one of silence rather than attack of any kind.

Posted by: JEP Oct 18 2004, 05:57 PM
Hi All,

Getting back into JFK, I just got to see "The Final Chapter" by Nigel Turner. It is rare, but one can find some on interlib loan. The Final Chapter is really three one hour episodes and what some call parts 7, 8, and 9 of the original series. Most of what is out there is VHS and there are some extremely rare DVD's around.

Look for Media E842.9.M452 2003 call number.

The more interesting details seem to be that the TSBD was owned by a good oil buddy of Clint Murchinson named D. H. Bird. Bird also was the founder of the Civil Air Patrol, which Oswald and Ferrie were both associated.

Now the plot is becoming good as reinforced concrete.

The TMWKK series is interesting to view, some places are right and some off. But it is still worth the watch. It is kinda like the Bible, the good is mixed in with the bad.


Posted by: Mark Oct 18 2004, 07:03 PM
The inference is unavoidable that the two, Satan and Jehovah, were regarded as identical.

Ya know, whenever Jehovahs Witnesses would come to my door, and they came often, I'd listen to them, but I'd never let them in.

JP, have you ever read the 1976 interview with Harold Rosenthal - The Hidden Tyranny?

In it he claims that the god of the jews is Lucifer.

I posted it in this forum .... I should find it and pin it in this section.

Basically, we've been lied to over and over again and we actually worship an evil deity and don't realize it.

BJ, remember, this is just my opinion or belief.


Posted by: JEP Oct 19 2004, 12:54 AM
Hi Pupp,

No, I have never read the "Hidden Tyranny." Do point me to the general area and I will go check it out. I do agree with the thesis. He must have been a person with high "intellectual" reasoning abilities.

As best I can tell, the Jews always believed that God made all things, the rain, the food, and the children. It is reflected in even the names of children, as everything came from God. And in those early times, there was not much wrong with that belief. It was about the same as mother nature, the natural order, or what they liked to call God. Jesus was even OK with that belief.

The Gods of Roman and Greek era flowed from the observations of natural orders as well. Egypt tossed in lots of metals mining and mining temple effects. And this religious art was most practiced in old volcanic deposits were gold and other metals were most rich. The Jews of Egypt learned these techniques, as did Moses from his high court associations.

The problems start, or the historical time zone that the Islamics like to say that the Jews corrupted things, with Moses observations of the natural order. Moses liked what he learned from an active volcano called Mt. Sinai. Here he learned the toxic methods of volcanos and the effects of things like sulfuric acid and hydrofluoric acid. This is how the devil concepts move into the definition of the Jewish God. Moses or should I say his scribes wrote in a kind of imagery style in those times and used symbolisms like the snake for toxic effects, etc.

The imagery used on snakes is basically about toxic methods, poison methods, alchemy, the black arts. The big secret of the Jews then became how to use these alchemical methods to secure their freedom. And things like the geological volcanic effects of Mt. Sinai as they fled across the Red Sea.

Moses made the issue of God into one of Jewish nationalism and one of natural order effects used to kill enemies. Then the Pharasees came along and made this into oral law and gave little explantion. It was their oral law and became know as the Torah. So, the God of the Jews as set up with the Moses methods was more aligned with satan, volcanic toxics, the God of the underground, death.

There was a time for the Jews where they had reasonable defintions of beliefs on God and times when they did not. I tend to point these departures out as being two different Gods. It is a nice simple way to discuss the effect.

Obviously, if one reads extensively on the issues of Jesus with this Lucifer effect of the Torah, one finds that Jesus' opinion highly differed from the Torah. But one must go read in the Talmud and other sources to find this. It can't really be found in only Genesis. Those that start with Genesis in understanding the God of the Jews do obviously find themselves in the realm of satan.

However, Jesus wanted those old parts preserved so people could learn about the concepts that were good and the ideals that were bad. The NT is a sort of tutor sheet about the wrong ideals of the OT, perhaps it might be better to begin reading there if one insists on reading only one book. Especially, if one wants to pay due respect for Jesus.


Posted by: Mark Oct 19 2004, 01:04 AM
Harold Rosenthal Interview 1976
The Hidden Tyranny

Hey JP, there's a link for the interview. It's a jaw dropper.

I've also read that Ahkenaton and Moses were one and the same and the Red sea was actually the REED sea.

Posted by: JEP Oct 19 2004, 02:32 AM
Hi Pupp,

Thanks for the link.

I think the sea of reeds is the left branch of the Red Sea, over on the Nile side. Some call it Pharo's Bath--very shallow. The right side branch of the Red Sea is where the crossing took place. It is very deep, except for a fault zone where the crossing was.

When the oral laws become too strong and people fail to see the problems of Genesis----this sort of problem happens. Even the Triangle / Chapel Hill, NC people are beginning to get this straight these days.

Conference At Duke Equates Zionism And Apartheid
By Janine Zacharia
Jerusalem Post


Posted by: JEP Oct 19 2004, 03:07 AM
Hi Again,

Most interesting story from a Jew that knows the system well. He is a prime example of what Jews call "malashim" ("Informers"). I do agree he told the truth.

I also see that he was killed for his malashim, and JFK was killed for quietly taking on the same system. How many more? There are many.

I take special note of this piece as it relates to JFK and his US Notes:

"It's our method through which we take money and give only paper in return." (The economic problem of America and the world is ultimately a Jewish problem, or as Henry Ford stated: "The Money Question, properly solved, is the end of the Jewish Question and every other question of a mundane nature."

Can you give me a example of this we asked?

"The examples are numerous, but a few readily apparent are the stocks and bonds market, all forms of insurance and the fractional reserve system practiced by the Federal Reserve corporation, not to mention the billions in gold and silver that we have gained in exchange for paper notes, stupidly called money. Money power was essential in carrying out our master plan of international conquest through propaganda." "

Some tell, or shall I say try to sell here, that religion is not a factor in the JFK assassination, but the reality is that religion issues linked to this Judaic problem was at the top of the motives list.

When the Rockefeller / AMA medical system ended up supporting this SV-40 contaminated vaccine problem, it was a liabilty of epic proportions. The American public would come unglued when they found out they supported giving the country cancer. In order to alliance to hide the problems, the Rock and Roths got together. They leveraged the White House and this is part of the issues on JFK's objections to those abusing the power of the White House.

The Rocks help keep the Jews big satanic snake game secret and in return the Jews help keep the Rocks major health screw ups secret. This is the top of the racketeering game. And the top of the money pyramid. If that gets out---all their money power is gone.

In these End-Times, as people begin to find out all this deceit on what God is from Genesis and Moses---then we find even Chapel Hill, NC folks are getting into the wake up call on Zionists.


Posted by: JEP Oct 20 2004, 05:15 PM
Hi Pupp,

Here is another one to ponder from the fluorine garden of DuPont. I think it was "Scotchguard" brandname that was discontinued, but nobody every said why......

One would think that Scotchguard would be a top number one good thing to have on a boby bed to help with all the diaper leaks / stains, however........

Interesting thing about fluoride compounds in the stomoch is they typically convert to HF via the action of the acids on the fluoride compounds one eats. Fluoride compounds entering the stomoch are around 50 percent retained via that process.

Now, when one applies this to babies, especially ones that are overfed and tend to spit up, then one gets the problem. Babies placed on their bellies on a fluoride based stain retardant baby bed of Scotchguard are very prone to spit up food and acid that hits this fluoride compoung and converts it into HF. The HF then is either breathed in as a gas or soaks into the skin. Babies don't do well with this poison.

I think ya just noticed what really was / is causing the mysterious SIDS effect.

The way some chose to curb the problem was to always put down a sheet of plastic on top of the baby bed and make the sheets over the top of that to avoid contact with the fluoride scotchguard compound.

Don't ya think that all the parents that lost kids due to this effect deserve to know what happened?

Did ya ever consider this effect in light of the tales from Egypt and Moses casting around his snake methods?


Posted by: JEP Oct 21 2004, 04:54 AM
Hi All,

The real curious thing on the suppression of "The Final Chapter" seem to center on the issue of the last part, 9, or "The Guilty Men" part. This one has JFK fingered as the top person knowing by a lawyer from his lawfirm in Texas.

It gets real interesting that the lead person trying to make History Channel pull this interview was none other than the highly influential and very Jewish Jack Valenti of Hollywood. Valenti ran the "Motion Picture Association of America" and appears to be doing some old favors for all of LBJ's help to Israel by getting Nigel Turner and the highly visible History Channel off Ladybird's husband.

Jack Valenti was one of Johnson's right hand men:


1 House Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Economic and Commercial Law, Assassination Materials Disclosure Act of 1992: Hearings on H.J. Res. 454, 102d Cong., 2d sess., 1992, 96. (Prepared Statement of Jack Valenti, Special Assistant to President Johnson from November 1963 to June 1966).


Do we see one huge conflict of interest here or what?


Posted by: JEP Oct 21 2004, 07:13 AM
Hi All,

There was an interesting "Love Affair" with the JVB and LHO story, but there is one other significant "love story" in the JFK hit.

The Jewish factor gets to be obvious when one looks at issues like Reagon being the Jewish Holocaust archive person for the US military in Hollywood during the war years. This would translate into his being behind the Washington Holocaust museum, because it would house the stuff he collected during WWII.

Reagan would block extradition of Trade Mart files and persons to New Orleans for the Garrison trial and once one knows the strong ties to Israel and the huge association there to the JFK hit, things become more obvious.

Reagan is one of the real problems on why the state within a state issues have become such a huge problem drawing the US into faked up wars.



Reagan Had Strong Ties to Jewish L.A.
by David Finnigan

"He just fell in love with the Jews," said Goren, a former Jewish Federation of Greater Los Angeles president. "He was accused of having fallen in love with the Jews."

"He was extremely helpful during his administration to build the Holocaust Museum in Washington," Lowenburg said. "I look at his picture every day on my wall, of him and me at the museum’s groundbreaking."

Jewish supporters remembered that in the late 1940s, Reagan was one of the first non-Jewish actors to attend an Israel Bonds dinner. During the Six-Day War in 1967, then-Gov. Reagan quickly volunteered to go to a Hollywood Bowl event supporting Israel.

Posted by: JEP Oct 21 2004, 10:18 AM

The Ultimate Cathartic Admission of the Warren Commissions Conspiracy Efforts.

Ford's Monolith failures

Take note of the Jewish linked imagery---Jonah's Whale smells
AND the definite linking of species of Jewish "Talmudic text" needing clear explanation.


Warren Commission member and future President Gerald Ford declared early on that "the monumental record of the President's Commission will stand like a Gibraltar of factual literature through the ages to come."14 Three decades later, an American author likened the Commission's work to "a dead whale decomposing on a beach."15 The juxtaposition of these similes, as well as their temporal distance from one another, tells a story about the changing perception of the Warren Commission's work over time. And while neither is fully accurate, they concur, at least, on the issue of size. The Warren Commission's work product was massive. The size and scope of the published material provided critics with "a species of Talmudic text begging for commentary and further elucidation."16


14 Quoted in Summers, Anthony and Robbyn Summers, "The Ghosts of November," Vanity Fair, December 1994, 88.

15 Mailer, Norman. Oswald's Tale: An American Mystery. New York: Random House, 1995, 351.

16 Ibid. Author Norman Mailer, like many before and after him, would find it "startling to discover, as one pans these government volumes for bits of gold, how much does gleam in the sludge" (352).

Posted by: JEP Oct 22 2004, 08:35 AM

Did you ever note that the ultimate antithesis of Cuba is really one of Jews againt Castro?

Just like Jacob Rubenstein changed his name, so did Ruben Batista. The US was always quick to recognize the Batista regime. Even Jack Ruby went running down to Cuban when Castro took over in 59.

Making sense now. JFK was busy making peace with Castro's Cuba in 63. And taking apart the Jewish power machine in the US.



The Jew bankers when they needed an emperor they always chose one who had Jew roots. The Jew bankers would advance him without merits just for being a Jew. This was the case with Napoleon, Castro,Stalin,the Popes they have placed in power in the Vatican and with the Roosevelt cousins. Ruben Fulgencio Batista-Zaldivar was born on September 12, 1899 in Veguitas, Banes County, Oriente Province. Ruben later changed his name to Fulgencio. They did not register his birth until January 16, 1901. His father Belisario Batista-Palermo, was a Sargeant in Maceo's rebel Army in the war of independence. Forty percent of the banana consumed in New York before 1900 came from Banes. United Fruit after 1901 built their two large sugar mills’ Preston and Boston in Banes Municipality. Belisario Batista moved in 1901 to Guira neighborhood in Banes because he had to work with the Jamaican cane cutters that lived there. Belisario and Fulgencio both worked for United Fruit. The ports of Gibara, Sama and Retrete in Banes were famous for samuggling black cane cutters since 1750. Batista's mother Carmela Zaldivar Gonzalez died in 1915. Both names Batista and Zaldivar were well rooted names in the area since the 18th century. Belisario's mother Palermo must have come from Sicily. Zaldivar is also a common Jew Sicilian name. Mayors and store owners in the area were named Batista and Zaldivar. The weaslthiest one in the area Cheche Zaldivar married into the family of Mir, founders of the neighborhood Duruthy in Banes County. Cheche and Placida Mir had a son named Israel Zaldivar. In Banes County there is an area in Mulas neighborhood named Zaldivar. Batista attended Los Amigos a Quaker school in Banes. In school, he was nick named Beni. In his youth he date a girl named Eloina. First, he did a sugar harvest in Santa Lucia sugar mills. Later he was a signalman with the Gibara Railroad. In his 1940 political campaign, he would use the low-brow-snubbing suggestion of saying he was just a "mulatico retranquero,” meaning just a little mulatto from the railroad tracks. To obtain votes they also falsely projected him as a racial mixture of Chinese, black and Cuban native because his olive skin colors, typical of Sicilians. His father wanted Ruben to join the army. However, he could not join until April 1921. They gave him a high security job at President Zayas’ Villa Maria in Wajay in 1923. There he was acquainted with important leaders of the Liberal Party. In Villa Maria, he also met his first wife Elisa Godinez whom he married in 1926. He had issue with Godinez and with his second wife Marta Fernandez. They transfer him to headquarters at Columbia Garrison. At Columbia, he served as an intelligence officer and secretary under Inspector General of the Army Colonel F. Rasco. They gave him, in 1928, another intelligence job with the Cabanas’ Garrison, working with court-martial cases as a stenographer. His job included altering trial records to favor the government case and reporting the attitudes of the defendants to intelligence dossiers. Later they transferred him to Columbia Garrison under the orders of Gomez, Head of the Military Secret Service. There he joined as a mole the ABC secret organization created in 1932. Batista also joined the Freemasons. These last ones recommended him as a good Jew when Roosevelt and Welles were looking for a candidate to lead their "Sergeants Revolution.” They trained him well in secrecy and perfidy.

Posted by: JEP Oct 22 2004, 06:11 PM

A good review of the rocky road between the US and Cuba and the terrorist actions to attempt to keep it under Rockefeller/Rothchild control via "Ruben" Batista.

Note that as soon at Castro gets into place he tossed out United Fruit, which is Rockefeller/Dupont investments and CIA asset. And he tossed out the Mafia boys.

Ruby has to go running down there to try and help, and Ruby knows the big score on the oligarcy methods of power in Cuba. It is the same system that attempts to control the US and often succeeds because the US is literally dumbed down.

Persons like JFK, since he was in Europe watching the tensions build that lead to WWII, he was able to understand what was happening. JFK was off making peace with Castro, which is the last thing all these secret oligarchy types wanted to see.
The History of Cuban-American Relations


Posted by: JEP Oct 22 2004, 06:17 PM

Since we have delved into "Moses with Horns" (satan) and "The Creation's" Duality as presented by the highly intelligent Michalengelo of Tuscany. Then here are some interesting words from the Tuscan insurrection times in Florence and Martin-Luther:

I think the Tuscans recognized the problems well. But in the naive US, they are easy and fair game for those that twist the meaning of religion to their own advantages.

Then a few hundred years later and along similar lines there is Henry Ford's observation of the problems:

The International Jew -- The World's Foremost Problem
By Henry Ford, founder of the Ford Motor Company, and the editors of THE DEARBORN INDEPENDENT.

For those looking for the bottom line in relgion, if you run around enhancing spiritual beliefs beyond tangible reality, you do get only a ghost. Ghosts are fabrications and figments of imagination.

The use of spirituality in the US is often abused and used for ill gotten purposes.

In the CIA, they don't call the agents that know and use these methods "Spooks" for nothing. There is a reason. And recognition of that shall set everyone free.


Posted by: JEP Oct 23 2004, 02:26 PM


Fidel’s father became a millionaire working for Rockefeller’s United Fruit Company. Fidel's father, Angel, joined the Spanish army as a specialist attached to Headquarters with General Weyler. When war was over, he went back to Spain and later returned to Cuba. Angel Castro made a fortune in Nipe Bay forests. He had the first 10% of a farm that would have been worth $22 million today in 1908. It was 10,000 acres. They knew Mayari and Banes one next to the other as the two Municipalities or Counties where the United Fruit Company operated. Angel Castro was the person United Fruit Company placed in charge of importing and when necessary smuggling illegal Haitian sugar cane cutters. Eight hundred and fifty thousand Haitians and Jamaicans came to Cuba from 1903 to 1944, half of them illegal. In forty-five years of Republic, they brought more, than the 820,000 that came in the 400 years of Monarchy, 1516-1881. Castro knew well the honorary Consul of Haiti, Hilbert a friend of his first wife Maria Argote. He had with Argote two children Pedro and Lydia. Nipe Bay was the only place where illegal Haitians and Jamaicans entered Cuba.

Tens of thousands of Jews wanted to come to New York, but Americans did not allow these legally. Haitians did not give Angel enough to own a 22 million dollar farm. For Angel a better opportunity presented in 1915 after the Great War started in Europe. Exiles used Cuba as a waiting hotel to illegally enter Florida. Among other things, Angel was in charge of paying politicians to allow the whole thing to happen. Some exiles stayed in Cuba. Angel Castro by 1940 had fully paid his 10,000-acre farm. He named his farm Mana-Acas. This farm was in Mayari Municipality, Nipe Bay, in the eastern Province of Oriente. This traffic of people gave him $2 million. One hundred and sixty thousand Jews came to Cuba, from 1902 to 1959. Most of them came in transit to New York. Forty thousand of them came illegally through the only port that did this, Nipe Bay. They often used sugar ships to take them to the States. They paid 140 dollars for the fare, Europe to Cuba. Refugees paid $150 for the transit permit in Cuba, $100 for the smuggling in fast boats to Florida and 100 dollars for housing, paying politicians and other services in Cuba. Castro made a fortune on these last 100 dollars.

Posted by: JEP Oct 23 2004, 03:05 PM
Tens of thousands of Jews wanted to come to New York, but Americans did not allow these legally. Haitians did not give Angel enough to own a 22 million dollar farm. For Angel a better opportunity presented in 1915 after the Great War started in Europe. Exiles used Cuba as a waiting hotel to illegally enter Florida. Among other things, Angel was in charge of paying politicians to allow the whole thing to happen. Some exiles stayed in Cuba. Angel Castro by 1940 had fully paid his 10,000-acre farm. He named his farm Mana-Acas. This farm was in Mayari Municipality, Nipe Bay, in the eastern Province of Oriente. This traffic of people gave him $2 million. One hundred and sixty thousand Jews came to Cuba, from 1902 to 1959. Most of them came in transit to New York. Forty thousand of them came illegally through the only port that did this, Nipe Bay. They often used sugar ships to take them to the States. They paid 140 dollars for the fare, Europe to Cuba. Refugees paid $150 for the transit permit in Cuba, $100 for the smuggling in fast boats to Florida and 100 dollars for housing, paying politicians and other services in Cuba. Castro made a fortune on these last 100 dollars.

Castro again

Things went so well, Angel in 1918 required a Jew speaking partner to handle service. The father of Castro's mother Lina Rus moved to his farm Manacas and became his friend. Rus was a second-generation immigrant, from Kirklisse Turkey. This was a suburb of Edirne. Lina Rus had that peculiar hate, Jews had against Spanish who expelled their families from Spain in 1492. Lina begot Fidel, Raul, Emma, Juana, Angela and Ramon. Catholic schools for admission, required children to baptize, and parents to marry in a Catholic Church. Angel and Miss Rus must have married in a Catholic Church in 1918. Angel Castro was an important figure in Provincial politics in Las Villas and Oriente Provinces. In Villas, he owned a brick factory. He was a liberal Republican. In his house, Fidel learned to drive automobiles at a young age. In Mayari and Banes, Freemasons and the United Fruit Company, controlled politics. Fidel's godfather was Fidel Pino-Santo a Liberal Republican politician who strongly opposed laws against illegal immigrants. Raul’s godfather was Batista. They have blurred Castro’s biographical data with low-brow-snubbing because the desire to have a popular appeal with the masses. The greatest trauma in Fidel's life was the rough treatment Angel gave Lina his beloved mother. He emotionally attached himself to his mother, a "Jewish Princess," and for the rest of his life he would despise anything resembling to be Spanish or Catholic.

Posted by: JEP Oct 24 2004, 01:11 PM

The science of fluorine is literally so pontifical that it is the divine gatekeeper between what are the concepts of Heaven and Hell for Humans on this planet. This is how powerful the study of the full issues of fluorine relates. Fluorine gets into the inner circle of the secrets of religion, and the flaws in the interpretations of religion. This is how fluorine comes to play such an instrumental role in the Revelations message of Jesus from the Biblical narratives.

Posted by: JEP Oct 25 2004, 09:30 AM
Hi All,

It would appear that we have about beaten the JFK and Jewish/Zionist connections for the power elite into being totally exposed.

So, I am going to stop monitoring this thread. If something else good comes along yell.

Look for me over on some religion theme, getting deeply into the issues of Christans and their false concepts linked to Spirituality.

jim phelps

Posted by: Seralia Jan 13 2005, 12:48 PM
Time for a little game of find Oswald. whistlingNEW2.gif According to the official account, Oswald was in the window of the School Book Depository but where was he really?

user posted image


He's right there in the doorway.

user posted image
user posted image

Some, including the Warren Commission say that the man in the doorway wasn't Oswald but one of his co-workers who just happened to be wearing a shirt that was the same color as Oswalds and unbuttoned the same way.

user posted image

Lovelady identified himself as the person in the Altgens' photo to the Warren Commission.  One problem with Lovelady's claim is that he testified before the Warren Commission that he was sitting on the steps to the Texas Book Depository eating his lunch when the Presidential motorcade drove by.  He stated that two fellow employees, Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, were "right behind" him.  As one can see in the photo, nobody is standing behind the person in the doorway and that person is clearly standing in the doorway, not sitting on the steps.  Lovelady stated that he then heard what he thought at the time were firecrackers.  He did not know that President Kennedy had been shot until a coworker, Gloria Cavalry, ran up and told him.  If it was Lovelady in the entranceway, he would not have had to been told that the President had been shot, because the man in the entranceway had a perfect line of site to the events.  As one can see, the person in the entranceway is looking at Kennedy at the moment the first shot hit Kennedy; he would have seen the final shot explode President Kennedy's head; he would have seen Mrs. Kennedy crawling on the trunk of the limousine grabbing his brains and the Secret Service agent jump in the limousine before it sped off.  The whole purpose for people to be watching the motorcade was to see the President, and man in the entranceway was no exception; he was looking directly at President Kennedy as he was being shot.  Furthermore, if Lovelady were the man in the doorway, he would have testified to what he saw, but he did not, because he was sitting down on the steps eating his lunch; he was only able to testify to what he heard.

Quatrains of Nostradamus

The ancient work will be accomplished,
And from the roof evil ruin will fall on the great man:
They will accuse an innocent, being dead, of the deed:
The guilty one is hidden in the misty copse.
(Century 6, Quatrain 37)

The great man will be struck down in the day by a thunderbolt,
The evil deed predicted by the bearer of a petition:
According to the prediction another falls at night,
Conflict in Reims, London, and pestilence in Tuscany.
(Century 1, Quatrain 27)

Posted by: Chaiyah Jan 22 2005, 06:22 PM
upsetforgiven.gif Here are my files on it:

Zapruder film, autopsy film, CIA docs that place GHWBSenior in Dallas on that day; and in which GHWB accuses another person of the crime; GHWB's comments at NYTIMES/Abuzz about the assassination in January of 2004.

Go to it. I'm sure glad we're getting around to prosecuting the guilty ones.

Posted by: Mark Jan 22 2005, 06:53 PM
Seralia, as always, you're the super sleuth of our forum.

I'd never seen that photo before. It sure does resemble Ozwald to me, but I cannot be 100% sure.

I fully believe Ozwald was a patsy and he did NOT kill JFK.

Jack Rubenstein (Jack Ruby) made sure Ozwalds side of the story would never be told when he killed him.

Chaiyah, when I get some time, I'll check your page and perhaps add more to this archive. Thank you.

Posted by: Chaiyah Jan 22 2005, 07:35 PM

My archives are at your "disposal"--I mean--USE.

Everything in my folders is in the public domain anyway.

If you can make anything out of anything, go for it.


Posted by: Mark Jan 22 2005, 08:07 PM
I just went thru and saved the JFK images.

Man, it just saddened me to view the images.

And to think that the demon hybrid spawn have gotten away with it all of these years and no justice has yet to be served.

Well, the clock is ticking.... And their time is coming!

Posted by: Seralia Jan 24 2005, 12:17 AM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Jan 22 2005, 06:53 PM)
Seralia, as always, you're the super sleuth of our forum.

I'd never seen that photo before. It sure does resemble Ozwald to me, but I cannot be 100% sure.

I fully believe Ozwald was a patsy and he did NOT kill JFK.

I did a little more sleuthing and came up with the key piece of Lovelady's testimony about where he said he was at the time of the shooting which occurred just before the picture was taken. Lovelady stated that he was sitting down eating his lunch on the step and did not know that the president had been shot even though the man in the picture was clearly looking in the direction of the motorcade. I would really like to get a recording of his testimony so that I could analyze it. I have a feeling that he was working with the CIA and, if he was anywhere near the depository and wearing the same clothes as Oswald, that he might have been somewhere near the window. I do think that someone did state that they saw a man that looked like Oswald eating a sandwich in the lunchroom and that man could have easily been Lovelady.

Mr. Ball: You ate your lunch on the steps?

Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball: Who was with you?

Mr. Lovelady: Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me

Mr. Ball :What was that last name?

Mr. Lovelady: Stanton.

Mr. Ball: What is the first name?

Mr. Lovelady: Bill Shelley.

Mr. Ball: And Stanton's first name?

Mr. Lovelady: Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps

Mr. Lovelady: Yes.

Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. Lovelady: Right.

Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?

Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. Ball: What did you hear?

Mr. LOVELADY. I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. Ball: Who was this girl?

Mr. Lovelady: Gloria Calvary.

Mr. Ball: Gloria Calvary?

Mr. Lovelady:Yes.

Lovelady then tells the commission where he thought that the sound of the gunshot came from. wackoNEW.gif

Mr. Ball: Where was the direction of the sound?

Mr. Lovelady: Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.

Mr. Ball: That's where it sounded to you?

Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.

Mr. Ball: From the underpass area?

Mr. Lovelady: Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.

I found the testimony at this site and just reformatted iit a bit to make it easier to read BTW.

Now this is when they talk about the picture.

Mr. Ball: I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?

Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball: Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.

Mr. Lovelady: Where I thought the shots are?

Mr. Ball: No; you in the picture.

Mr. Lovelady: Oh, here (indicating).

Mr. Ball: Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

Mr. Lovelady: Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).

Mr. Ball: You were standing on which step?

Mr. Lovelady: It would be your top level.

Mr. Ball: The top step you were standing there?

Mr. Lovelady: Right.

Mr. Ball: Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. Lovelady: Yeah.

Mr. BALL: When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY: Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.


Posted by: Seralia Jan 24 2005, 12:33 AM
I almost forgot something. The caption above the image states that the picture was taken just after the first shot and this is what Lovejoy had to say about it.

Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. Ball: Three minutes is a long time.

Mr. LOVELADY: Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

Lovelady was supposed to have been sitting on the step eating his lunch when the shots were fired and yet the man in the picture was standing up looking in the direction of the motorcade just after the first shot was fired. He did say that he heard what sounded like firecrackers and didn't realize that Kennedy had been shot. nono2.gif

Mr. LOVELADY. I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Posted by: Without Fear Jan 24 2005, 04:38 AM
Hi Seralia,

As Pupp says - Great sleuthing!

user posted image

I have had this picture stored on my PC for a couple of years (but I didn't save the link sadoriginal.gif ). It is the un-cropped version of yours.

I don't have the commentary, but I think some significance was attached to the extra car shown at the back, with the door open and security guys reacting. I thought there were also some other descriptive diferences, so I'll see if I can find a link.


Posted by: Without Fear Jan 24 2005, 08:13 AM
Found the link and text:-

This is the Altgens photo as it appears in the book "Mortal Error". Note that the photo has been cropped to hide the fact that Vice President Johnson's Secret Service detail has already opened their car doors while Kennedy's Secret Service detail remains motionless.

user posted image

Although, without seeing earlier photographs, I can't be certain that they didn't travel with their doors open.


Posted by: Without Fear Jan 24 2005, 04:49 PM
I hadn’t read all of Jim Phelps thread when I posted above, but now I have gone through it all, and looked up all the links (that still work).

My mind is still reeling. It’s a real jaw dropper.

It’s excellent - not just about JFK, but he also interlaces Lincoln, Corporate Corruption, Big Family connections, the Fed, Religion, Oak Ridge, and Poisons.


It’s pretty hard to add much more, so I'll just throw in a few links:--
Comprehensive information site
Well structured, with detailed research and serious study information
Another perspective,- Debunker web site – supporting the lone gunman...

These are especially interesting;
Confession by James Files claiming he was assassin who fired the fatal head shot.

One must consider the truths that are self evident if the murder of JFK is to truly be "solved."  Let us now clearly examine these truths:

1- The Kennedy family were/are members of "the elite" (players in international high finance circles) since the early days of Joseph Kennedy. John F. Kennedy was elected to office through monetary power and with the help of the Mafia. Without the total support of other members of "the elite" - he would not have become President

2- JFK and his brother, RFK, attacked organized crime in an effort to expose the Mafia to the public and curtail its power. JFK and Chicago mob boss Sam Giancana shared the same mistress, Judith Campbell Exner. Giancana helped JFK win the election in Illinois and on the east coast.

3- Since 1942, the CIA and the Mafia have worked together in numerous clandestine operations.

4- JFK refused to allow the CIA and American troops to attack Cuba thereby creating the infamous Bay of Pigs fiasco in 1961. Following that incident, General Charles P. Cabell, Deputy Director of the CIA, went around Washington calling President Kennedy a traitor. The CIA solicited the services of the Mafia to kill Fidel Castro.

5- International bankers have controlled America for over 100 years

6- The Vatican Bank is one of the most powerful international financial institutions in the world. Paul Marcinkus, the sole American ever to rise to an executive position in the Vatican Bank, was from Cicero, Illinois, a legendary Chicago mob stronghold. In 1994, Marcinkus was accused of money laundering drug profits in a USA Today news report. Now a resident of Arizona, Marcinkus declined to comment
7- CIA operatives and former covert agents using CIA planes and vehicles often control the transportation of narcotics from the source. The Mafia controls the global drug distribution network to the consumer. The defunct Nugan-Hand Bank in Australia as well as banks in the Cayman Islands and Switzerland have also participated in CIA/Mafia money laundering of drug profits.

8- The public execution of John F. Kennedy was accomplished by a three man Mafia/CIA "firing squad" in association with a patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald. The CIA was aware of the attempt on JFK's life prior to 11/22/63 and flew in an "abort" team to Dallas on the morning of the "hit."

9- In 1963, John F. Kennedy was preparing to amend the National Labor Relations Board statutes and various Internal Revenue Service statues that would prevent foreign flag shipping from being exempt from American income taxes. These amendments would have seriously affected Liberian shipping magnates and the assets of men such as Aristotle Onassis. Billions of dollars were at stake. President Kennedy was killed three days before he was to make these amendments public

10- In 1979, The House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded that there was a "probable conspiracy" in the murder of JFK and that organized crime members "possibly" were involved.

"The greater our knowledge increases the more our ignorance unfolds."
John F. Kennedy


Posted by: Ganesh2005 Jan 24 2005, 05:06 PM
Hi Without Fear,

I just went thru Phelp's stuff, too...pretty mind-boggling

Just goes to show what's hidden away in this site, awesome info..

BTW PuPP, I juz noticed the Beyond 2012 site has disappeared,,,

what the....? That site was a great resource...pity



Posted by: Mark Jan 24 2005, 05:25 PM
Hey Without Fear, thanks for your contributions.

Just when I'm feeling down, you guys/gals perk me up and make me feel that this is all worthwhile!

I saved all of your images.

I'm gonna edit Seralias post to make the image fit the forum better.

She's awesome isn't she?


Hoy Ganesh, our site sure is a gold mine for info and knowledge... is it any wonder why my name is slandered and I am insulted at other forums?

.... I'm not sure what site you mean?

Lots of sites seem to be disappearing lately. Which is why I registered this domain until 2007 and when I have the extra funds I will extend it furthur until 2012.

Psssst to the lurkers...

Host server renewal is due in April.

hint hint

Posted by: Without Fear Jan 24 2005, 06:43 PM
Its my pleasure to be here PuPP! waving.gif

Thanks so much for inviting us in! cheers2.gif

What you do is so worthwhile - please keep on doing it!

jam.gif jam.gif jam.gif jam.gif
pinkelephant.gif pinkelephant.gif pinkelephant.gif

Hi Ganesh2005, yep.
I've been here since Oct, and I've nowhere near got through all the real info thats here.

There is just sooooo much reading2.gif



Posted by: JenThom Jan 25 2005, 12:48 AM
Billy Lovelady, the one who said that he was the man standing in the doorway, conveniently died back in 1979 of a heart attack while he was out jogging or something like that.

There were actually a lot of people that died whom had been somehow linked the the death of Kennedy. The list of deaths can be found here:

The Death Of John Kennedy

Convenient Deaths
1963 - 1976

I did a little more sleuthing and came up with the key piece of Lovelady's testimony about where he said he was at the time of the shooting which occurred just before the picture was taken. Lovelady stated that he was sitting down eating his lunch on the step and did not know that the president had been shot even though the man in the picture was clearly looking in the direction of the motorcade.


You're just a little bit off Seralia, Lovelady was in the doorway but you can't see him because he is sitting down on the steps in front of Oswald eating his sandwich. Lovelady just forgot to mention that both Oswald and his boss were standing right behind him.

About 4 hours after the murder, I heard Tom Pettit, of NBC News, interview Oswald's supervisor about Oswald's possible involvement. Pettit asked the supervisor if Oswald was, indeed, on the sixth floor shooting at the President. Oswald's boss replied that it was impossible since Oswald was standing beside him in the 1st floor doorway of the building, when the President passed. He said that he was there with Oswald and another employee named Lovelady. Oswald was standing beside him and Lovelady was sitting on the steps directly in front of them. If one examines a United Press photograph of the motorcade at the time the first shots were fired, the photograph clearly shows someone, who looks like Oswald, standing in the school book depository building 1st floor doorway. Although the blowup is quite fuzzy, the figure still appears to be wearing the same clothing that Oswald was wearing when he was arrested and when he was paraded down the hallway of the Dallas Police Department. As he was being led away down the hallway, Oswald shouted back over his shoulder, to the reporters, that he was a "patsy" indicating that he had the idea that he had been set up to take the fall for the assassination. This may be one of the reasons he was murdered by Jack Ruby. The conspirators apparently did not want him giving information that could possibly exonerate him and implicate them. It also is becoming clearer that there may have been conspiratorial operatives within the Dallas Police Department who participated in the President's murder and who cooperated in making it possible to eliminate Oswald. Oswald's supervisor, not long afterward, died a mysterious death. His interview, with Pettit and other reporters, may have sealed his doom. The same fate befell other witnesses who could place Oswald in locales other than the sixth floor of the depository building.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 26 2005, 10:54 PM
QUOTE (JenThom @ Jan 25 2005, 12:48 AM)
You're just a little bit off Seralia, Lovelady was in the doorway but you can't see him because he is sitting down on the steps in front of Oswald eating his sandwich. Lovelady just forgot to mention that both Oswald and his boss were standing right behind him.


I never really considered the possibility that Lovelady was telling a partial truth but it does make sense. He was probably pointing at the step and not at Oswald.

I found this on one of the websites and it seems to prove that both Oswald and Lovelady were at the same location at the same time and that there is no way possible that Lovelady could be mistaken as Oswald. They both have very distinctive skull types.

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Posted by: Seralia Jan 26 2005, 11:16 PM
One aspect of the Kennedy Assassination that people seem to overlook is the death of officer Tippet. I had always heard that Tippet was a dead ringer for Kennedy and that Tippet had also been involved with the plot and one witness claimed that he had been seen escorting at least two men that were carrying what may have been rifles. There was also the thought that he may have been one of the gun men. Strangely, there have been very few pictures of Tippet that have been shown publicly but I found a site that had made comparisons between Tippet and Kennedy suggesting that their bodies had purposely been switched between the time that Kennedy was examined at the hospital and when he was autopsied which would explain the different types of wounds that were observed.

The first image is a picture of Tippet. The second one is supposedly of Kennedy but it looks more like Tippet and the last image is a picture of Kennedy.

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Photo number 1 shows JD Tippet. Photo #2 is an official autopsy photo from the Warren Commission files. The final picture is President Kennedy, riding down Rice Ave. in Houston the day before his killing.

Standard 5 line profile: The length and geometric angles of the five lines used on all three photos are identical. In the first photo, lines were drawn from the ear center to the corner of the eye, tip of the nose, upper lip, and point of the chin. A fifth line from tip of nose to tip of chin was added. The same grid was placed over the second two photos. It matches closely photo number two, but fails to work on number three. This is because Tippet's chin was not as prominent as JFK's. (Also, notice the significant difference in the earlobes between #2 and #3. That just can't be Kennedy's ear.)

The computer agrees. The top photo (Tippet) is a 96.875 match for the autopsy photo. Kennedy (#3) is excluded, meaning that there is no possible way it could be him.

Conclusions: Thus, even if the dead man is not JD Tippet, it is not President Kennedy.

Events across town in Cliff Park 40 minutes after the Kennedy ambush may provide valuable scientific clues. The first reports described Tippet's killer resembling Jack Ruby. The sole "reliable" witness later became unclear, then finally settled on Oswald months later, after beaten almost to death by unknown assailants. It does not really matter at this point which one of them killed Tippet. What matters is that Tippet looked so much like the President that people often commented about it. Fellow policeman would often kid him about it, calling him "Mister President".

The devil is in the details: Tippet was killed 40 minutes after the President and taken to the same hospital, with a bullet wound to his head being the cause of death. Eerily enough, Tippet's wounds were identical to those reported by the JFK autopsy. Tippet was buried the following day in Dallas in a closed casket. The burial occurred less than 20 hours after he was killed. He remains the only Texas peace officer shot on duty who was ever buried without an autopsy.

"It's not him": An examination of photos of Tippet and Kennedy shows the remarkable resemblance. Could he have been murdered so that his body could be used for x-rays and other forensics available at the time? Was J.D. Tippet ultimately buried at Arlington Cemetery?

As shocking as this may seem, consider the words of Senator Robert F. Kennedy as he viewed the body in the open casket. William Manchester reports that as RFK looked at his "brother" for the last time, he said: "It doesn't look like him at all". Manchester's news story continues, "His eyes full, the Attorney General turned to Bill Walton and whispered, 'Please look, I want to know what you think.' Walton looked as long as he could, with a growing sense of outrage. He said to Bob, 'You mustn't keep it open. It has no resemblance to the President.'" Arthur Schlesinger said: "It is appalling,...At first glance it seemed all right, but I am nearsighted. When I came closer it looked less and less like him." And Jackie said "That's not my husband. It's not Jack", and turned away sobbing. These people knew the President well.

Posted by: Mark Jan 26 2005, 11:37 PM

Chaiyah shared her file archives with me on JFK and as I was looking at the autopsy photos I said to myself, man that does NOT look like JFK.

It's the person in the middle of the image you posted.

Lemme post the autopsy images.

I think you are onto something here.

Posted by: Mark Jan 26 2005, 11:40 PM
Here's one that made me question WHO it really was.

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I am no expert here, just using my creator given eyes, common sense and reasoning.

Posted by: Mark Jan 26 2005, 11:45 PM
Here's another.

To me, this one resembles Kennedy.

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Posted by: Seralia Jan 26 2005, 11:56 PM

Chaiyah shared her file archives with me on JFK and as I was looking at the autopsy photos I said to myself, man that does NOT look like JFK.

Now that I've finally been able to find an image of Tippet, who's picture only appeared for a split second in one of the documentaries, I do believe that they autopsied Tippet and not Kennedy.

Besides the death of Tippet, there was the death of Dorothy Kilgallen who might have been able to link Tippet to Ruby. whistlingNEW2.gif

Kilgallen covered the assassination of JFK, the year after Munro's death, in earnest. She attended Jack Ruby's trial in 1964 and became convinced that there was more to the story than anyone had anticipated. She interviewed Ruby in which was the only unsupervised interview he conducted. Kilgallen was apparently very excited by what she had discovered. The famous journalist then returned to New York and wrote a column linking Ruby to T.D Tippet, the policeman shot shortly after Kennedy.

She had discovered the crux of the matter, Ruby and Tippit were pals. Both of them, members of an underworldly police athletic league and a right-wing organization. She had learned of a meeting three weeks before the assassination at Ruby's "Carousel", the Dallas underworld's merry-go-round where the "Big D" mobsters wheeled around. Present at the meeting were Ruby, Officer J.D. Tippit, Bernard Weismann, who had placed the "JFK-Wanted for Treason" newspaper ad in Dallas newspapers on November 22nd, 1963 and, she would later learn, a fourth party.

When Dorothy returned to New York, she told friends that she had discovered that Ruby and the slain Officer J.D. Tippit had been friends. They had been seen together in Ruby's Carousel Club at a meeting 2 weeks before the assassination in the company of Bernard Weissman. Studying the Warren Commission Report, Killgallen deduced that the meeting had also been reported to Chief Justice Warren AND that the identity of "the fourth man",which she had been unable to ascertain, had been reported to Warren as "a rich Texas oil man", as Earl Warren described him in the official transcript.

She told a friend and autobiogrpher that she had discovered something that was going to break the whole JFK assassination mystery wide open. She told the same story to her next door neighbor, her hairdresser, her agent, her publisher, and the producer and host of "Nightlife".

Kilgallen had spoken about a very mysterious and sinister player in the JFK assassination to whom she gave the code name "ferret man". From the description of the individual, it is clear that "ferret man" was none other than David Ferrie, another known associate of Jack Ruby involved in gun running, the Marcello mob and other anti-Castro operations from Florida to Texas. At one time, Ruby and Ferrie were co-owners of an airplane.

Nightlife's producer, Nick Vanoff, pleaded with her not to broach the subject on the air. She had arrived at the studio with a folder full of pertinent and explosive notes documents. She kept the folder closed throughout the interview. Vanoff, asked her agent, Bob Bach, to send her "a dozen long-stemmed roses."

She also discovered about 100 discrepancies with the Warren Commission's report and said that she was going to blow the case wide open. Kilgallen was then examined by the FBI and put under great pressure not to persevere with her investigation into the Presidential assassination. Her phone was tapped as were the phones of her friends to see where a leak may have come from.

Dorothy was found dead of an apparent drug overdose in her bed on November 8, 1965 before she could publish her findings. After her body was removed it appeared her notes had been as well. All of the data Dorothy had gathered on the JFK assassination and the Warren Report were lost.

The coroner made a complete study of the chemicals in Dorothy's system. He found a lethal concoction of several different pills which looked particularly like a deadly assassins brew. Apart from thre medical examination report, there was absolutely no inquiry into her death.

A book lay open next to Kilgallen's body but the spectacles she required to read were on the other side of the room, a long way out of her reach.

Posted by: Mark Jan 26 2005, 11:58 PM
Here's a couple of clips. This first one is from Chaiyahs site.

The quality is poor but it shows the driver Greer with something in his hand and turning around....

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I've been told that Greer, the driver, actually delivered the fatal shot to JFK, which would explain WHY he didn't step on the gas after the first shot was fired.

I mean c'mon, if you were driving the car and someone started shooting your President, wouldn't you hit the gas?

Well, not if you were in on it you wouldn't.

Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 12:11 AM
I just realized that the animation above only played once, so I fixed it to play indefinitely and deleted the last frame which was corrupted.

Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 12:18 AM
Here's another from my archives and it's cut off, but you can just barely see the driver Greer and an object to the far right.

By using the clip above as a reference, you get a clearer picture of what really happened that day.

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Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 12:22 AM
Here's a still photo of Greer delivering the fatal shot.

Courtesy of Chaiyah

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Take note in the video clips, most of the right side of JFKs head was blown off.

The autopsy photos do not seem to reflect that damage.

Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 12:24 AM
I think we need a clearer video clip to truly prove this happened to the naysayers.

Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 12:29 AM
Here's a much smaller file size clip of the final shot.

Take note of how much of JFKs head explodes.

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Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 12:31 AM
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Posted by: Seralia Jan 27 2005, 12:47 AM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Jan 26 2005, 11:45 PM)
Here's another.

To me, this one resembles Kennedy.

That one might of been Kennedy. There are some differences between the images so they might have combined images of both Tippet and Kennedy.

In one image his eyes are open and in the other one his eyes are closed. The facial expressions also seem different to me. I also noticed that In one image his head is either on a towel or flat pillow and in the other image his head is being supported by a metal headrest. If you look carefully at the middle Kennedy/Tippet comparison photo, the headrest is clearly visable. The differences in the coloration of the front and side views is also a bit suspicious to me. The side view has a yellowish tinge and the front view doesn't.

I've been told that Greer, the driver, actually delivered the fatal shot to JFK, which would explain WHY he didn't step on the gas after the first shot was fired.

I heard about that possibility a few years ago but wasn't able to get a copy of the footage that actually showed it and now that I have seen it, it does look like Greer had some type of projectile weapon.

There was a bit of controversy concerning the size and shape of the neck wound and whether or not it was an entry or exit wound.

The wound on the throat was an entry wound. The shown appearance resulted from a medical treatment made by Dr. Malcolm Perry while trying to rescusitate JFK. The Warren Commission claimed this to be an exit wound.

When John Kennedy was brought to Parkland Hospital, he had a small wound in his throat below the Adam's Apple. The small size of the wound has led conspiracists to make two different but related arguments:

Some witnesses described the wound as less than 6 mm. in diameter.  Since Oswald's weapon was a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, the wound supposedly could not have been made with a bullet from his rifle.

Exit wounds are generally larger than entrance wounds, and the small size of the wound suggests an entrance wound.  If this is true, the shooter had to be in front of Kennedy — on the Grassy Knoll, for example — and not behind him in the depository.

The autopsy doctors determined that the back wound was 4 to 7-millimeters in diameter and the Dallas doctors said the throat wound was 3 to 5-millimeters in diameter. Since the back wound was larger, this would normally suggest that the neck wound was one of entrance and the back wound one of exit — assuming both holes represented the path of a single bullet.

Various descriptions of the small hole in the President's throat were given at Parkland Hospital by the doctors who saw it before a tracheotomy incision erased its outline. . . . [A]ll seemed to agree on the size of the hole.  It was small — so small, in fact, that one doctor believed it was too small to be even the entry hole of a high velocity bullet (6H56). Dr. Perry described it over the phone to Commander Humes as between 3 and 5 millimeters in diameter (17H29). This is half the diameter of an ordinary pencil, much too small to be he exit wound of a transiting bullet.

The Warren Commission said that JFK had a wound of entrance at the base of his neck. The House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), based on an analysis of disputed autopsy x-rays and photos, moved the wound about two inches downward. However, the evidence indicates this alleged "neck wound" was actually five to six inches below the neck, considerably lower than where the WC, and quite possibly a little lower than where the HSCA located it.

The correct placement of the back wound destroys the single-bullet theory. Given the fact that the bullet entered JFK's back at a sharply downward angle, and at a point five to six inches below the neck (and thus well down on the back), there is no way it could have exited his throat, unless perhaps if it struck bone, but the chief autopsy doctor said he found no evidence that the missile had done so, and the HSCA's own medical panel agreed (69:272; 8:328; 6 HSCA 56). The only other way the missile could have exited Kennedy's throat is if JFK had been leaning far forward when the bullet struck. But photos show that the President was sitting more or less upright before the bullet hit him in the back. The Select Committee's own trajectory consultant said that Kennedy was leaning forward by no more than 18 degrees when the bullet struck.

We know that bullet didn't exit the President's throat because we have solid, credible accounts from medical technicians and doctors who were at the autopsy that the back wound was probed repeatedly, both with fingers and with a surgical probe, and that no exit was found. James Jenkins, one of the medical technicians at the autopsy, has reported that he could even see the probe pushing against the lining of the chest cavity (14:477). "There was," he says, "no entry into the chest cavity."

And then there is the recent interview with former Parkland nurse Diana Bowron. As mentioned, Nurse Bowron washed the President's body before it was placed in the casket. Nurse Bowron got a good look at the back wound. In a drawing she sent to Harrison Livingstone, she placed the wound at least five inches below the neck (63:183, in conjunction with first photo page). With regard to the alleged autopsy photo of JFK's back, Nurse Bowron remarked, "This is not the back I saw."

Posted by: Without Fear Jan 27 2005, 12:31 PM
Thats a really interesting theory about Tippit and the autopy, Seralia. I hadn't heard that before. If you find more be sure to post it!

Here are the three clearest frames from the Zapruder film that I could find, but I have no idea what generation they are, nor whether they have been enhanced in any way.

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Looking at these, and the rest of this film,
I don't see clear evidence that the driver fired the shot. IMO The whole plot was too professional to need the driver to shoot as well.


Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 02:07 PM
Without Fear, thanks for those images. I saved them

It does appear to be the top of the guys shining head in the passenger seat that resembled a gun.

That's why it is so important to have a clear image of the event so we can form a conclusion. I'll go thru the WebFairy website and save the images and video. Much appreciated!

I still hold onto my belief that Greer was in on it by his lack of action.

As I said before... if you were driving a car and someone started shooting at your passengers, your first instinct would be to hit the gas... even if there were cars in front of you.

You'd try to make yourself a harder target to hit by stopping and starting and zig zagging if you had to.

He did nothing until JFKs head exploded.

Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 02:35 PM
Here's the uploaded to our server.

Click to play - 2.6 MB

I recall reading that one of the passengers exclaimed,

"My God, they're going to kill us all"

I may have read it in this thread, not sure.

What I am noticing as I'm going thru these still images is that Jackie just sits there keeping her distance instead of shielding her husband while he clutches his neck.

And the man in front of JFK (Connaly?(sp)) appears to be trying to get out of the car to me. I see his hand on the top of the door. I believe he is the one who said those words in quotes above.

Also, it appears that the driver turned his head when JFK was first shot.

Bottom line, it was a definite conspiracy, a group of individuals that wanted JFK dead. And to me, it appears that the driver and possibly Jackie KNEW about it.

Mere speculation and opinion on my part of course.

Was it because he printed U.S. notes and wanted to abolish the federal reserve which has bankrupt America?

Was it because he wanted to abolish the C.I.A.?

Today, many believe that the C.I.A. is a Nazi/Israeli affiliate organization - all about mind control and information control of which the third reich was very proficient in.

"That’s where the Bush family fortune came from: It came from the Third Reich"
~ John Loftus

I fully believe these inhuman beings have used their advanced technologies to enslave the minds of entire generations for decades and have used their religions to control the masses for thousands of years.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 27 2005, 02:47 PM
QUOTE (Without Fear @ Jan 27 2005, 12:31 PM)
I don't see clear evidence that the driver fired the shot. IMO The whole plot was too professional to need the driver to shoot as well.

Since it was such a professional hit, and knowing that the driver was in on it, and the possibility of one or more of the snipers missing for any number of reasons, having the driver fire off a shot at Kennedy would have been a good idea. The wound in his neck was one of the crucial items for them to come up with the single bullet hypothesis so they could explain how one sniper was able to shoot two people in such a short period of time and cover up any evidence of there being more than one person involved.

As far as there actually having been a sniper in the school book depository, I have my suspicions that the rifle was just planted there as a decoy and that the sniper was somewhere else. rolleyesNEW.gif

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This photograph appears on page 22. The caption reads,"From the same building where Oswald lay in ambush, a telescopic lens reconstructs an approximation of what the killer saw at the moment of tragedy". The photograph does appear to support the idea that a single shot could have hit both Kennedy and Texas Governor John Connally. However, the photograph, despite the caption, was not taken from the schoolbook depository. The distinctive brickwork of the schoolbook depository (see photo from pages 24-25) is clearly seen on the right hand side of the photograph, proving that the photograph was actually staged from the Daltex building. The traffic signs clearly in view indicate a much lower angle than would be seen from 6 floors up.

This is a view from the 6th floor window.
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And this is a view of the depository from where Zapruder was standing.

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And this is where the window is:

user posted image!!Project/viewarrow.jpg

To me, the building to the right would have definitely been a better location for a sniper.

This just is some additional information that I found concerning the assassination that I thought was interesting.

At Bethesda, a hurried autopsy took three hours to complete.

Unfortunately a vain attempt to perform a tracheotomy at Parkland had removed the exit wound at Kennedy's throat. A fragment of skull, which had been retrieved on Elm Street, was flown east by federal agents, and was also examined. The head wound was extensive, consistent with a hollow-pointed or mercury-tipped round, blasting through his forehead from the left, and exiting at the right side of the back of his head. (Such bullets are designed to open out, or explode on impact, so that they make a large and messy exit wound). The Warren Commission's finding, however, was that this was an ENTRY wound, and had been fired by Oswald in his perch on the sixth floor of the Texas school book depository (TSBD).

Now a garment manufacturer named Abraham Zapruder had used his new cine camera to shoot 18.24 seconds of footage on Elm Street in Dealey Plaza as the President's motorcade passed him. The 334 frames of cine footage, taken at just over 18 frames per second, must be the most viewed and hotly debated film clip in history. They show Kennedy's violent death in horrific detail.

The second head shot struck Kennedy on Zapruder's film at frame 313. As he had been moving forward just before this, the Warren Commission speculated that the shot had come from behind him (just as Oswald's first round had). But close analysis of the movie by expert Anthony Marsh showed that all six occupants of the car moved forward at the same moment, indicating that the vehicle slowed, and they moved by inertia. This is indeed what happened - agent Bill Greer, hearing the first shot, took his foot off the gas, slowing the limo from 12 to 8mph, and looked around. A second later Kennedy's head  was snapped back and to the right as part of the back of his skull was blown away. Jackie Kennedy was showered with blood and the brain matter of her husband. Marsh also linked a 'sound track' to Zapruder's visual footage. This was possible because a Dallas motorcyclist jammed his dictabelt tape machine on just before the shots started, and recorded several minutes of sound in Dealey Plaza during those fateful minutes.

Many witnesses testified to hearing a shot coming from the left of the motorcade, about 120 feet away where there was a grassy knoll in front of a picket fence. This would be entirely consistent with a bullet striking Kennedy's head from the left front, as the limo moved further away from the TSBD, which was to the right and behind. Now Oswald could not have fired this shot (frame 313) as at that moment his view of the president's vehicle on Elm Street was blocked by the branches and leaves of an oak tree in front of the building from which he was sniping.

Zapruder's cine camera was also unable to capture the strike of the first shot, as his lens was obscured by a large sign indicating the way to Stemmons Freeway at the north western end of Elm Street (frames 206 to 210) as the presidential limo drove past him. But his footage clearly shows it's immediate effect: both Kennedy and Connally reacting to being hit by a bullet. This was later found in the stretcher on which Connally was lifted and taken into Parkland Hospital, having presumably lodged in his left thigh and then fallen. It was in almost pristine condition - not consistent with a 6.5mm round that had passed through the flesh, bone, sinew and muscle of two bodies before stopping. Such a bullet would be flattened and warped out of shape. Thus it became the infamous "magic bullet" to the many critics of the Warren Commission appointed by LBJ.

The chrome topping of the presidential limo and the windshield were also hit and cracked. This was either a miss by Oswald (the Warren Commission speculated that he fired three shots, missing once, and hit Kennedy twice), or was caused by a fragment from the fatal headshot. Many witnesses were certain that they heard gunfire from the area of the grassy knoll, possibly from the fence immediately behind it. This would be a perfect sniper's perch, putting Kennedy in a deadly crossfire - Oswald firing from above and behind to the right, and another sniper shooting from ahead and to the left. Zapruder testified that a shot had come from behind him and whistled past his right ear.

This is a view from the grassy knoll BTW:!!Project/view.jpg

Posted by: Seralia Jan 27 2005, 03:06 PM
Now this is very interesting. huhNEW.gif

by Mack White

At one point, my father pointed out the so-called "sniper" window to me. As I was looking up, my eye wandered away from the window to the fire escape on the building across the street--the Dal-Tex building-where I saw two men taking turns looking through the scope of a rifle mounted on a tripod.

I was alarmed. "What are they doing?" I asked.

"It's part of the investigation," said my father.

So the police were checking out an alternative sniper perch. Evidently, that morning, there was still something resembling a real investigation. The investigation, of course, would end the next day with Oswald’s death.

He took two photos of me. In one, I'm facing the camera, with the Depository behind me. In the other, my back is facing the camera and I'm looking up at the building. The latter is the picture he used on the front page of his paper (the Mansfield News-Mirror), with the caption, "A young boy is shown facing the building from which the assassin fired the shots which killed President Kennedy." (It would be a while before we heard about the grassy knoll.) In the photos, the Hertz clock on top of the building says 11:38--less than 24 hours since the assassination, though it seemed longer.

Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 03:21 PM
...close analysis of the movie by expert Anthony Marsh showed that all six occupants of the car moved forward at the same moment, indicating that the vehicle slowed, and they moved by inertia. This is indeed what happened - agent Bill Greer, hearing the first shot, took his foot off the gas, slowing the limo from 12 to 8mph, and looked around. A second later Kennedy's head was snapped back and to the right as part of the back of his skull was blown away.

Evidence of Bill Greers complacency in this horrendous event.

Posted by: Without Fear Jan 27 2005, 04:53 PM
I turn away for a few minutes and you guys are posting so much great finds!

Seralia, If I were planning the hit, I wouldn't have the driver do any more than he did - act dumb and brake. I think the more important thing would be to get expert shooters in strategic positions. But I do agree, a backup plan was called for, and I think thats what this interview reveals. I also agree that it highly unlikely that the book depository window was the scene of any of the shots.

This is the to the confession by the man, James Files, who claims responsibility for the head shot. He was interviewed on camera by Bob Vernon on March 22 1994.

In it, he named the two other assassins as Johnny Rosselli and Charles Nicoletti, who were in the Dal-Tex building, and had clear long site of the car.
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This was the best map I could find

Files said that he was the 'back-up' plan, and therefore only had one shot loaded in his gun. Seeing that Kennedy was hit, but with no head shot, he aimed for the eye, but instead hit the side of Kennedy's head. The reason for the ‘miss’ was that fractionally before he fired, Kennedy was also hit by Nicoletti, and his head moved forward slightly. By that description, the frame 313 should reveal two hits on Kennedy.

He said he had to wait to avoid hitting Jackie, as he was under instruction only to hit the President. He was located at the stockade near what has become known as the grassy knoll.

His statement is very interesting and plausible. In it he also reveals that he was in contact with both Ruby and Oswald, although he believed that Oswald did not fire any weapon, and was a 'patsy'.

In answer to what weapon he used,

…Remington Fireball XP-100. Its a single shot, bolt action pistol...scope mounted on it…I shot a .222 with a mercury load in it.(34) We used a mercury load...the .222 was designed to fragmentate......if you've got any type of bone structure, the round would fragmentate and explode and the round would be traveling at approximately about 3100 feet per second...which meant you would get penetration and explosion...

Files was also asked about Officer Tippit;

Q: Is there anything you can tell me about the death of Officer J.D. Tippit?
A: I do not wish to touch base on that. I have no comment on that.

Q: Do you know who killed him?
A: Yes, I do.(27)

Q: Is the man still alive?
A: The man that killed J.D. Tippit is still alive. He was alive as of three years ago. I haven't talked to him in the past three years. Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill J.D. Tippit.(28) Because the man that killed a police officer that afternoon had come by my motel and told me...he said that things got messed up today he said and I killed a cop...and my remarks to that was well you did what you had to do and he left shortly thereafter.

Q: So then there was one other person that was part of the team other than you, Nicoletti and Rosselli?
A: The person that I am referring to now was not a part of the team to assassinate far as I know his job would have been to kill Lee Harvey Oswald from what I understood without asking any direct questions because I did not want to know what anyone else was doing. All I wanted to know was what my assignment was, what I was to do, and the least I know about other people, the better off I am because I didn't want very many people knowing who I was or what I'm doing.

Q: Would you have known who would have given him orders to kill Officer Tippit?
A: No, I would not because that contract would have come from a different source.

This is what I found intriguing about his statement, and lends credibility

In reply to the question, what happened to the spent casing, he said;
'I took the casing and I bit down on the casing to leave teeth marks on it and I set the casing, as a symbol, right on top of the stockade fence which I know I should have never done but I did that.'

In 1989, John Rademacher, a lawn services specialist, went with his stepson to Dealey Plaza, and since he had some lawn tools in car trunk thought it would be fun to dig around to see what they could find. Near the picket fence they found a.222 casings. At the time it got little press, and no mention was made that the case was slightly deformed.

After the interview with James Files, Bob Vernon visited John Rademacher and took the shell to five leading forensic odontologists who all concluded that the marks were consistent with human dentition. One of the top experts even identified which teeth had made them.


Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 05:30 PM
Image courtesy of Chaiyah

user posted image

Posted by: Mark Jan 27 2005, 05:43 PM
Without Fear, ahhh.... more to the puzzle, it just gets deeper.

We must NOT forget Jack Rubenstein (Jack Ruby) and the connections of what appear to be Italian Mobsters by the names you posted.

We must also remember that the early Mob/Mafia of America was NOT all Italians - it was also Jewish controlled. I believe a major player was Mayer Lansky.
(Watch the rarely shown movie 'Mobsters' with Christian Slater)

But of course, only Italians are remembered while we are force fed the exagerrated figures of jewish dead in the holocaust with hardly any mention of all of the other millions who suffered and died.

I'm sorry, but these facts and many others to me, point out WHO our inhuman oppressors really are and where their bloodlines are dominate in.

And yes, it's NOT just Jews... it is really all about bloodlines.

The Vatican and the pedophile Catholic Clergy, the lying talking heads on our tv news as well as most of our US govt are also part of it.

"Ye Shall Know Them By Their Fruits"
~ Matthew 7:16

It just appears that many claim to be Jews.

And their evil bloodlines have spread their Spanish (Latin) bloodline ties into Central and South America and across the globe as they conquered one land after another.

"I know of thy works and tribulations and poverty, (but thou art rich), And I know the blasphemy of them which say they are jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan"
~ Revelations 2.9

Fricken Evil Bloodlines are all over the place!!!

I saved all 158 images from the Web Fairy link you provided and I shall attempt to make a reduced animation. I hope my pc resources can handle it.

:::crossing fingers:::

Posted by: Without Fear Jan 27 2005, 07:34 PM
PuPP, agree its deep, and bloodlines are involved - suprise!! snake.gif

I think that Jim Phelps has done an excellent job of painting the broad brush strokes on the canvas about the Why and Who, methinks we are now filling in some of the How, and other missing details.

So far, I’ve got no shortage of people who were well and truly ticked off with JFK;

Kennedy refused to agree to Israel Nuclear program – upset the Jews
Kennedy refused to engage in Bay of Pigs - upset the CIA and the Mafia
Kennedys clamped down on Organized Crime & the Unions – upset the Mafia
Kennedy to introduce Taxes on foreign flag shipping – upset Onassis (and big shipping magnates)
Kennedy wanted to control US currency – upset international Bankers
Kennedy wanted to reduce Vietnam involvement – upset Arms industry
Kennedy took control of the Cuba Crisis – upsetting his Military Chiefs.
Kennedy had sidelined LBJ, who was about to become a nobody, or worse, a convict.
Remember that Nixon was eliminated by Kennedy, and had no obvious political future – that’s two upset politicians.

The circles the Catholic Kennedy family moved in were full of corruption, high finance and high power.

Onassis was after his wife, Jackie

Onassis / Kennedy feud was very deep. Read about Nemesis - The True Story By Peter Evans, here

The feud between Onassis and Bobby Kennedy started in the 1950s and escalated over the next twenty years, climaxing when Aristotle Onassis allegedly provided the money to have Bobby assassinated. Evans' premise that Onassis money paid for Bobby Kennedy's assassination, and the evidence he presents to back it up is convincing. He has researched exhaustively and interviewed countless people for this presentation.

    The secrets of the ultra-wealthy are difficult for anyone who doesn't walk in that social circle to understand. It seems that everyone had multiple affairs. I didn't realize that Jackie was so promiscuous, and that she began an affair with Ari as she was recovering from the death of her child, Patrick, and well before JFK was assassinated.

      The Cast of Characters is unequaled: JFK, RFK, Ari, Jackie, Lee Radziwill, Marilyn Monroe, Maria Callas, Gore Vidal, Truman Capote, William Holden, and many other famous and infamous newsmakers. Beautifully written, it lays bare the ugly morals of the elite of our generation. I admit to having been envious of their beauty and wealth...until I read this book.

When you recognize that you have the choice between the Blue pill or the Red pill, you just know you will never see the world in the same way again.



Posted by: Without Fear Jan 27 2005, 07:58 PM
If the shots were fired from the Dal-Tex building, then I thought maybe they are visible in this Altgens photograph, taken at the moment of the first shot to Kennedy?

user posted image

Then I found this:
Assassination researcher Robert Groden, who served as a photographic consultant for the House Select Committee for Assassinations, believes that a photograph taken by James Altgens might reveal one of the conspirators in the Dal-Tex Building. The dark-complected man, who has never been identified, leans suspiciously out of a broom closet window just seconds after the President and Governor Connally were struck from behind.

The likely origin of the missed Tague shot would be one of the lower floors of the Dal-Tex building. ..This location would be on line with the Tague shot and a perfect vantage point for an assassin.

user posted image

I can't locate this image in the original, but its feeling good! What we really need is a very high res copy of the original....


Posted by: Seralia Jan 27 2005, 11:21 PM
QUOTE (Without Fear @ Jan 27 2005, 04:53 PM)
Seralia, If I were planning the hit, I wouldn't have the driver do any more than he did - act dumb and brake. I think the more important thing would be to get expert shooters in strategic positions.

During a hit, even with expert snipers, it is sometimes good to have someone in close proximity to the target just in case something were to go wrong to make sure that the target died. Greer did stop the car and even looked back at the president twice and had enough time to shoot him with a very small diameter projectile weapon.

On the 22nd November, 1963, Greer was assigned to drive the presidential car in the motorcade through Dallas. Several witnesses said that Greer stopped the car after the first shot was fired. This included Jean Hill, who was the closest witness to the car when Kennedy was hot: According to Hill "the motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out". James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated that the limousine "after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped." Mary Woodward, a journalist with the Dallas Morning News wrote: "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt... after the first shot".

William Manchester claims that Greer told Jackie Kennedy at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it, I didn't hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn't help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time!"

It has been estimated that 59 witnesses and the Zapruder Film indicated that Greer stopped after the first shot was fired. However, when interviewed by the Warren Commission, Greer claimed: "I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away."

Greer also testified that he heard three shots and they all came from behind him. His testimony on Kennedy's head wound did suggest that a conspiracy had taken place. He claimed that when he got to Parkland Hospital he noticed Kennedy's "head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of blood... it looked like that (his head) was all blown off." This contradicts the pictures of Kennedy's head that were published sometime after his death.

There is evidence that Greer also believed that John F. Kennedy had been a victim of a conspiracy. The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families".

During the attack Greer had turned very quickly to look behind him and towards the screaming governor and/or President, then turned forward again. He then turned very quickly again rearward (the limousine brake-lights were filmed illuminating at this point), and driver Greer was the only occupant of the limousine actually facing Kennedy when he suffered the fatal head shot.

This is the part of Greer's testimony in which he states that he glanced over his shoulder:

Mr. Specter: You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.

Mr. Greer: Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter: Which shoulder did you glance over?

Mr. Greer: Right shoulder.

Mr. Specter: And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?

Mr. Greer: Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.

Mr. Specter: Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same?

Mr. Greer: Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter: As the time?

Mr. Greer: Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter: You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right.

Mr. Greer: My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it.

This part of the testimony is interesting since Greer doesn't even mention that he stopped the car for any reason and was traveling at a speed of no less than 12 mph:

Mr. Specter: Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?

Mr. Greer: It was about simultaneously.

Mr. Specter: So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time--

Mr. Greer: Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter: You had gotten that instruction?

Mr. Greer: Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.

Mr. Specter: Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. Greer: I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. Specter: Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. Greer: Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.

Mr. Specter: What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots?

Mr. Greer: I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour.

Mr. Specter: At the time all of the shots occurred?

Mr. Greer: At the time the shots occurred.

Greer was also one of the people who removed Kennedy from the Limo and also the one who took possession of all of Kennedy's clothes at the hospital which seems strange to me.

Mr. Greer: I run around the front of the car and got hold of a stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front end of it into the emergency room.

Mr. Specter: When did you acquire custody and possession of those items of clothing?

Mr. Greer: After they had made the President's body ready for removal, I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of them right then from the nurse at the emergency room.

He was the only agent inside the emergency room and also returned to Washington with Kennedy's remains on Air Force 1 so he was more than just a driver. Even stranger, Greer claimed that he remained with Kennedy's body all the way from the airport to Bethesda and was in the room while the autopsy was performed.

Mr. Greer: I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval Center.

Mr. Specter: What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center?

Mr. Greer: I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary that I could do.

Mr. Specter: Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Greer: No, sir.

Mr. Specter: At the autopsy?

Mr. Greer: There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole time there.

Greer died in 1985 so I'm guessing that he had to be a high level operative and not a low level grunt.

user posted image

Posted by: Mark Jan 28 2005, 05:27 PM
I was able to assemble a reduced image size animated gif with the 158 images retrieved from... - 4.6 MB

Maybe Bill Greer (the driver) didn't deliver the fatal shot, I am still not totally convinced yet, but what I do notice is that he just happens to turn around and look at JFK as his head explodes.


Posted by: Seralia Jan 28 2005, 10:22 PM
I went to the web fairy site and manually advanced the frames up to 316 and what appears to be a gun being fired by Greer is actially sunlight reflecting off the head of the agent who was sitting beside him. The agent's name was Roy Kellerman. Kellerman did something very suspicious at the time of the shooting.

Mr. Specter:Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of the time that the shooting occurred?

Mr. Greer: Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me--that stays in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what he said to me at the time.

Kellerman was also the assistant special agent in charge of security.

Mrs. Connally, too, heard a frightening noise from her right. Looking over her right shoulder, she saw that the President had both hands at his neck but she observed no blood and heard nothing. She watched as he slumped down with an empty expression on his face.151 Roy Kellerman, in the right front seat of the limousine, heard a report like a firecracker pop. Turning to his right in the direction of the noise, Kellerman heard the President say "My God, I am hit," and saw both of the President's hands move up toward his neck. As he told the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," Kellerman grabbed his microphone and radioed ahead to the lead car, "We are hit. Get us to the hospital immediately." 152

I might as well add some more more information about the speed and movement of the limo, which several witnesses said had stopped. According to the Warren Commission Report, the limo, based on the Zapruder film, which was heavily edited, was traveling at an average speed of 11.2 mph. wackoNEW.gif

William Greer, operator of the Presidential limousine, estimated the car's speed at the time of the first shot as 12 to 15 miles per hour. 145 Other witnesses in the motorcade estimated the speed of the President's limousine from 7 to 22 miles per hour.146 A more precise determination has been made from motion pictures taken on the scene by an amateur photographer, Abraham Zapruder. Based on these films, the speed of the President's automobile is computed at an average speed of 11.2 miles per hour. The car maintained this average speed over a distance of approximately 186 feet immediately preceding the shot which struck the President in the head. While the car traveled this distance, the Zapruder camera ran 152 frames. Since the camera operates at a speed of 18.3 frames per second, it was calculated that the car required 8.3 seconds to cover the 136 feet. This represents a speed of 11.2 miles per hour.147

It has been estimated that 59 witnesses and the Zapruder Film indicated that Greer stopped after the first shot was fired. However, when interviewed by the Warren Commission, Greer claimed: "I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast."

These are just some rough notes that I made while flipping through the slides.

The one thing that I wanted to see was if Jackie Kennedy picked up anything off of the trunk of the limo but unfortunately the last slide only showed her apparently reaching for something with her right hand. Frame 315 does show a significant amount of blood glistening in the sunlight which indicates a massive head wound.

This wasn't the first shot that hit Kennedy. Kennedy was hit once between frame 224 and 226. He has a shocked expression on his face and reaches for his throat by frame 228.

Connaly doesn't get hit until frame 244.

Kellerman begins to glance over his shoulder in Frame 268 and keeps looking back until frame 284.

Kellerman then turns to look back out the windshield sometime after frame 302. Kellerman is difficult to see because an unusual blurring of the film at this point. Kellerman appears to be looking down and forward by frame 305. Kellerman then begins to look up at frame 307 and as he does, the sunlight reflects off his hair and forehead making it appear that Greer is aiming a weapon at Kennedy.

Kellerman's hair takes on the appearance of a gun and his forehead takes on the appearance of greer's hand holding the gun.

By frame 341, Jackie seems to realize that part of Kennedy's skull is missing and she gasps in horror at the sight in frame 342. From 343 to 346, she begins to look back toward the trunk as if looking for the missing piece of skull.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 28 2005, 10:52 PM
This is the part of Kellerman's testimony in which he describes the wounds that he noticed on Kennedy's body. Kellerman describes four wounds, including the missing section of skull indicating that Kennedy had been shot at least three times.

Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head.


Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Representative FORD. Above the ear and back?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. About right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was absent when I saw him.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Proceed.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger.


Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the position of that opening with respect to the
portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or absent?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I am going to have to describe it similar to this. Let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described a distance of approximately an inch and a half, 2 inches, below.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct; about that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the President?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And was it--what was its general position with respect to the breadth of the back?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right straight.

Mr. SPECTER. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the lower neckline would you say?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between the shoulder and the neck, just below it.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that opening?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Again about the size of a little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have observed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate with--the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat or an exit.

Kennedy had been shot 3 times. Connaly had been shot once. One shot struck the windshield. One of the bystanders was grazed on the cheek by one of the bullets. That would make at least six shots that were fired and not three.

Posted by: Mark Jan 29 2005, 12:05 AM
what appears to be a gun being fired by Greer is actually sunlight reflecting off the head of the agent who was sitting beside him

Yes, I said that earlier, after Without Fear posted the 3 still images and the Web Fairy link but you musta missed my words.

Posted by: DarmonVing Jan 29 2005, 01:10 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Jan 29 2005, 03:05 AM)
Yes, I said that earlier, after Without Fear posted the 3 still images and the Web Fairy link but you musta missed my words.

There's nothing like an independent investigation that confirms your findings PuPP. nyuknyuk.gif I was almost convinced that Greer had shot Kennedy but from seeing all the evidence to the contrary I must conclude that Greer was not one of the shooters. However, I do believe that both he and Kellerman were involved with the Assassination of Kennedy and make sure that the snipers had enough time to kill kill him. Judging by Kellerman looking at his watch and saying that the t ime was 12:30, does make me suspect that the entire incident was perfectly timed and that they had until 12:30 to accomplish the task since the Masons/Illuminati always do things symbolically by the numbers so to speak.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 29 2005, 02:28 PM
QUOTE (DarmonVing @ Jan 29 2005, 01:10 PM)
Judging by Kellerman looking at his watch and saying that the t ime was 12:30, does make me suspect that the entire incident was perfectly timed and that they had until 12:30 to accomplish the task since the Masons/Illuminati always do things symbolically by the numbers so to speak.

pompoms.gif It's about time that you dropped in DV. I was getting worried about you. You're absolutely right about the whole numbers thing. It's one of their obsessions.

When the Illuminati assassinated President Kennedy, he was killed according to the occult number signature of eleven [11]. He was killed in the 11th month, on the 22nd day, and on the 33rd parallel. He was also killed in the Masonic Dealey Plaza, the most powerful secret society in the world today to whom the number 11 is extremely important. We shall revisit this subject later on, as we discuss the number '33' from a different angle.

1963: The Kennedy Assassination -- President John F. Kennedy Sr. was shot and killed in Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas near the 33rd Parallel on 11/22/63 (11 + 22 = 33). Dealey Plaza is the site of the first Masonic temple in Dallas, and a Masonic obelisk. Thus, we see the following numbers in the JFK assassination:

Number 11 -- November

Number 22 -- The day of the month

Number 33 -- Addition of '11' and '22'

Number 33 -- Dealy Plaza is located on the 33rd Parallel

1968 On June 5, 1968, shortly after winning the California primary election, United States' Senator, Robert F. Kennedy, was killed at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, California, close to the 33rd Parallel and near a Masonic Lodge. Like the assassination of JFK, this assassination contains the same occult "Master Numbers" -- 11, 22, 33.

Number 11 -- RFK was shot on June 5. June is the 6th month; when added to the 5th day, you get an '11'

Number 22 -- RFK was shot by a .22 caliber pistol

Number 33 --Addition of '11' and '22'

Number 33 -- Los Angeles is very near the 33rd Parallel

Yes, I said that earlier, after Without Fear posted the 3 still images and the Web Fairy link but you musta missed my words.

I did miss your words PuPP. chinscratch.gif I must have been half asleep at the time. sigh.gif

Posted by: Mark Jan 29 2005, 02:52 PM
It's ok Seralia, I forgive ya.
I'm sure I ramble waaay too much anyways.

Hey Darmon Ving, good to have you back and lending your voice here.

I do believe that both he and Kellerman were involved with the Assassination of Kennedy and make sure that the snipers had enough time to kill kill him.

Same here!

And yes, the occult??? numbers are their calling cards.

Did you see the reduced ani gif I assembled?

user posted image - 4.6 MB

I'll try and make one in a smaller file size for display.

Posted by: Without Fear Jan 30 2005, 07:37 PM
Hi PuPP,
Here a page with 'all' the frames from a version of the Zapruder film.

It’s hard to know if the film hasn’t been edited. It wasn’t shown publicly for about 12 years, which would provide ample time to ‘fix’ anything.

I have read speculation that frames have been removed to give the impression that the car doesn’t brake or even stop.
This link provides evidence that techniques used in cinema special effects editing in 1963 could easily have been applied to make it seamless.

42 years later I guess there will be no hard evidence to prove one way or the other anymore – so I suspect it will come down to belief and trust.


Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 08:03 PM
Hey Without Fear, I'll go through and save the images if they are of decent quality.


Yes, I agree, who knows what is real today knowing how the advanced technology beings can manipulate any image or even project a hologram into the sky and make everyone think God or jesus has arrived.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 30 2005, 09:42 PM
It's ok Seralia, I forgive ya.

I'm sure I ramble waaay too much anyways.

Well at least I'm being thorough with my "independent investigation". winkNEW.gif

It’s hard to know if the film hasn’t been edited. It wasn’t shown publicly for about 12 years, which would provide ample time to ‘fix’ anything.

I have read speculation that frames have been removed to give the impression that the car doesn’t brake or even stop.

They had a lot of time to edit the film and cut out any frames that didn't fit the testimonies of the Feds or the commission's lone gunman scenario WF. I did a little searching and came up with a lot of information about how much alteration was actually done to that small piece of film.

On 22nd November, 1963, Abraham Zapruder filmed the motorcade of President John F. Kennedy. Zapruder's colour film shows the president being shot and became an important part of the evidence looked at by those investigating the assassination. Soon afterwards Zapruder sold Just after the assassination he sold the 26-second film for $150,000 to Time-Life magazine, which published individual frames but did not allow the film to be screened in its entirety.

Some writers such as Noel Twyman, David Lifton, Jack White, John Costella and David Mantik have claimed that the Zapruder Film has been tampered with. They have pointed out that the film conflicts with the large number of witnesses who claimed that the limousine stopped after the first shot had been fired. This included the two people standing closest to the limousine, Jean Hill and Mary Moorman, and the four police motorcyclist nearest Kennedy's car.

Detailed analysis of the film has revealed that the limousine displays a variety of irregular movements, including travelling only ten feet within 21 frames between Z-197 and Z-218 (this is only about one half of the expected distance).

Noel Twyman carried out detailed research into the actions of William Greer in the Zapruder film. He discovered that Greer's rapid head turns between Z302 to Z-304 and Z-315 to Z-317 appeared impossibly fast. Experiments were carried out with athletic subjects repeating Greer's actions. These showed that no one was able to reproduce this angular speed. Twyman concluded that frames of the film had been removed therefore speeding up the actions of Greer.

* Numerous witnesses, over 40, including the escort patrolmen to the rear of the limousine, said the limousine stopped or slowed down drastically for a second or two. The Muchmore film shows the limousine's brake lights on for nine frames (about half a second) during the time period corresponding to about frames 311-319 of the Zapruder film. This event is not seen in the Zapruder film; in fact, the limousine never comes close to performing this action in the current film.

* Dr. Roderick Ryan believes he has discovered that the limousine is actually standing still in Z303 but is moving in Z302, even though the limousine appears to be moving at a nearly uniform speed in the film during this time (Noel Twyman, BLOODY TREASON, Rancho Santa Fe, CA: Laurel Publishing, 1997, pp. 158-159, 164-165). Notes Noel Twyman,

Experience tells us that the limousine could not have decelerated from 11 miles per hour to a complete stop in 1/18 second. (BLOODY TREASON, p. 165)

Dr. Ryan made this discovery by analyzing the blurring of background images in the two frames. Moreover, Dr. Ryan's son, who also works in motion picture film technology, studied the film and confirmed his father's discovery (BLOODY TREASON, p. 159).

* In Z353-356 we see Malcolm Summers diving to the ground. Summers is to the right of James Altgens. In Z353 Summers' left leg is extended most of the way out. But, in the very next frame, Z354, amazingly, the foreleg is bent markedly backward. Can anyone flex their foreleg to that degree so quickly? In 1/18th of a second?

In Z355 Summers' left leg is bent even farther backward. Can anyone move their foreleg that much in 1/9th of a second (from its position in Z353 to its position in Z355)?

Then, in Z356, the left foot seems to be on the ground. Can anyone whip their left foreleg backward and then put their foot on the ground in the space of three frames, 1/6th of a second?

* Another seemingly impossible action in the Zapruder film is the extremely rapid and precise movement of Charles Brehm's son in Z277-287. In Z277 Brehm junior is standing behind his father. Then, from Z277-287, or in just over half a second, he bolts out from behind his father and comes to stand beside him, clapping his hands no less. In other words, in Z277 Brehm junior is standing behind his father, but, just ten frames later, he is standing calmly and steadily beside him and clapping his hands--all in a fraction over half a second. Ten frames of the Zapruder film, calculated at the assumed speed of 18.3 frames per second, equals .56 seconds (or 560 milliseconds).

* Several witnesses said Kennedy was knocked visibly forward by a shot to the head, and Dan Rather reported seeing this event when he viewed the film the day after the shooting. No such motion of the head is now visible in the film, only the split-second forward movement from Z312-313, which no one could have noticed.

Former FBI official and J. Edgar Hoover aide Cartha DeLoach recently provided further evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film (albeit unintentionally and unknowingly, I'm sure). DeLoach recalls in his book HOOVER'S FBI that he watched the Zapruder film at FBI HQ the day after the shooting and that he saw Kennedy "PITCHING SUDDENLY FORWARD" in the film. No such motion, of course, is seen in the current film.

Newsman James Altgens, who was standing on Elm Street, to the left front of the limousine, with an excellent view of the shooting, when asked if he saw the backward head snap, replied that he didn't see it and that he thought reports of it were based on an optical illusion.

Special Agent George Hickey, riding in the follow-up car, said the final shot made Kennedy "fall forward and to his left."

William Newman, who was standing on the Elm Street sidewalk right in front of the grassy knoll and who had one of the best views of the shooting, tried to tell New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison that JFK was knocked forward and to the left as if struck by a baseball bat, but Garrison wouldn't believe him because the event wasn't in the film.

The violent, dramatic backward head snap in Z313-323, which for so many years was thought to be concrete proof of a shot from the front, actually constitutes further evidence of alteration. It has been established that no bullet striking the front of the skull could have caused the backward head snap. However, no bullet striking from behind could have caused this motion either. Warren Commission supporters have put forth two theories to explain how a bullet striking from behind might have caused the head snap, the jet-effect theory and the neuromuscular-reaction theory. Both theories are untenable (see, for example, ("Special Effects in the Zapruder Film: How the Film of the Century was Edited," in James Fetzer, ed., Assassination Science, Chicago: Catfeet Press, 1997, pp. 279-284; Mark North, Act Of Treason, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1991, pp. 383-385). So if neither a bullet from the front nor a bullet from behind could have caused the head snap, what caused it? A few researchers have speculated that Jackie was the cause of the head snap, that is, that she shoved JFK backward, but it is extremely doubtful that she was strong enough to throw her husband's torso backward with such terrific force. The head snap is a physical impossibility, at least according to everything we now know about physics and the human body. So how can we explain it? Dr. David Mantik, who holds a doctorate in physics, suggests that what we now see as the head snap was originally a much slower motion and was actually the action of Jackie lifting her husband back up to look at him.

* At least four witnesses saw blood and brain from Kennedy's skull blow out toward the rear of the limousine. Blood and brain splattered onto the left side of the follow-up car's windshield and onto the driver's arm. A considerable amount of blood and brain also splattered onto the two patrolmen who were riding to the limousine's left rear. At least one of those witnesses specified that the brain matter blew out from the back of the skull, and dozens of witnesses, including doctors and nurses, saw a large hole in the right rear part of President Kennedy's head. In the Zapruder film no blood or brain is seen to spray backward. (It cannot be said that the right frontal explosion of blood and brain, which is itself suspect, caused all the blood splattering. In the Zapruder film the right-frontal spray blows mainly forward, and also up and toward the camera, and quickly dissipates--in fact it dissipates in no more than three frames. This effusion of spray could not have caused all of the blood splattering that occurred.)

Secret Service Special Agent Sam Kinney was the driver of the follow-up car in Kennedy's motorcade and thus had a bird's-eye view of the shooting. In interviews with Vincent Palamara between 1992 and 1994, Kinney made some interesting and important observations about what he saw and about his impressions concerning the shooting. Of particular interest are Kinney's comments about the large head wound in the President's head:

He had no brain left [in the wound created by the shot]. It was blown out. . . . there was nothing left. . . . [The wound was in] the back of the head. I saw it hit and I saw his hair come out . . . . I had brain matter all over my windshield and left arm, that's how close we were to it. It was the right rear part of his head, because that's the part I saw blow out. I saw hair come out, the piece [of skull] blow out, then the skin went back in--an explosion in and out. ("The Secret Service Interviews," Kennedy Assassination Chronicles, Summer 1997, p. 20, emphasis added)

When Kinney was told about the description of the exit wound given by a number of the doctors who treated Kennedy at Parkland Hospital right after the shooting, he replied,

I would say that, too. . . . ("The Secret Service Interviews," p. 20, emphasis added)

Kinney's description of a large, blown-out right-rear exit wound matches the reports given by numerous Parkland doctors and nurses and by several witnesses at the autopsy. Also, his account of particulate matter exploding out the back of the skull and landing on his windshield and left arm agrees with Patrolman Bobby Hargis's report that the head shot sent blood and brain flying toward him so fast that when it struck him he initially thought he himself had been hit and that the debris got all over his motorcycle and uniform (in an interview he gave a few years ago, Hargis described the head shot as an "explosion"). Hargis, of course, was riding to the left rear of the limousine.

* The bloody spray from the right-frontal explosion that is seen in the film blows upward, forward, and also toward the camera, and is really clearly visible for only one frame, and dissipates in two to three frames--or in no more than 1/6th of a second. Yet, in films of two ballistics tests the resulting spray is visible for multiple frames. In other words, the right-frontal effusion in the Zapruder film seems to disappear too quickly, with unnatural speed.

* The 12/5/63 Secret Service survey placed the shots at approximately Z208, Z276, and Z358. A head shot at Z358 corresponds with the accounts of Emmett Hudson and James Altgens. Additionally, CE 2111, a Secret Service report, identifies the manhole cover on the side of Elm Street as being located almost opposite the limousine at the time of the last shot--the manhole cover is some 70 feet beyond the spot on the street that corresponds to Z313, which is when the head shot occurs in the current film. (There are several indications that there were TWO head shots. Dr. Mantik opines the first head shot occurred at around Z306-313 and that another one followed a short time later. He believes the current rapid backward head snap that starts at Z313 was originally a much slower motion and, as mentioned, might very well have been the action of Jackie lifting her husband back up to look at him.)

Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 10:09 PM
Thanks Seralia...

My Conclusion:

The Zapruder film has been intentionally altered.

Intentionally blurred frames and ommited frames.

To me it is totally obvious. Of course, they'd do anything to hide the truth.

Time Life/AOL/Time Warner = what attempts to control our minds today.

They are NOT the good guys IMHO!

Note: Is it any wonder why I quit AOL 4 years ago?

Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 10:21 PM
Here's the clear evidence of missing frames.

The explosion of his head lasts for about one frame.


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I apologize for my terminology or words as this stuff really hurts me... to view it or even to discuss it and yet I endure.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 30 2005, 10:55 PM
Thanks Seralia...

My Conclusion:

The Zapruder film has been intentionally altered.

Even though the Z film was altered, it does show a partial record of the events that happened on that day and cleared Greer of being one of the assassins.

I managed to find an already prepared animated gif that shows a close-up of Kellerman and Greer that proves that Greer didn't turn around and shoot the President.

This is another animated gif of Jackie climbing out onto the trunk of the Limo that I really needed to see.

This is a very important blowup from the Zapruder film, which shows Mrs. Kennedy's actions immediately following the fatal head wounds. Let it run many times so that you can get a good feel for where her right hand was going as she reached back across the trunk. After she returned to her seat, she immediately stated, "I have my husband's brains in my hand.". When she arrived at Parkland hospital she handed the brain tissue over to Dr. Jenkins. Of course, Mrs. Kennedy had to have seen this tissue being blown from the President's head, or she would not have reached back to recover it.

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A series of blownup stills from the Zapruder film, taken as Jackie reaches back across the trunk and retrieves the brain tissue. Notice that as she pulls her hand back, it is in an awkward upright position, rather than flush, on the trunk's surface. She is very obviously, protecting the tissue.

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These images show likely paths and trajectories for the final shot which blew matter back across the trunk and to the south, at or very near Z323.

huhNEW.gif There was an episode of the X-files in which the smoking man claimed that he had fired the fatal shot from a storm drain. blinkNEW.gif That does seem like the one location where a sniper could hide without being detected.

Here's the clear evidence of missing frames.

The explosion of his head lasts for about one frame.


Yes that is impossible PuPP. The mess should have been visable for more than just a few frames especially since the material ended up splattering the motorcycle cops and the car behind the Limo. They had to cut that part out because it would have shown that Oswald didn't fire the fatal shot. sadoriginal.gif

Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 11:13 PM
Seralia, upon examing this clip, it is clear to me that Bill Greer had hit the brakes by the fact that the passengers head lurges forward.

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Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 11:21 PM
There was an episode of the X-files in which the smoking man claimed that he had fired the fatal shot from a storm drain.  That does seem like the one location where a sniper could hide without being detected.


I have seen that theory and I believe that it is true.

A perfect hiding spot, easy getaway, undetected and a clear shot.

Forget the grassy knoll, seek the storm drain - gutter.

Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 11:34 PM
There's also another video of the event and possibly more.

(You can see at least one person taking photos or videotaping the event in the Zapruder film)

I cannot recall the name of the person, but it's from a different angle, taken from the grass we see in the Zapruder film.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 30 2005, 11:38 PM
QUOTE (PuPP @ Jan 30 2005, 11:13 PM)
Seralia, upon examing this clip, it is clear to me that Bill Greer had hit the brakes by the fact that the passengers head lurges forward.

They all reacted - not just Kellerman. Someone suggested that they were ducking but it looks more like they were reacting to Greer slamming on the brakes.

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Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 11:44 PM
See the guy in frame 301?

Looks like he's got a video camera going also.

He's not the only one, I saw another one too, near where the guy is diving to the ground on the grass behind a man who continues to film the event - probably with full knowledge of what is taking place and of course, no fear for his own life.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 30 2005, 11:45 PM
There's also another video of the event and possibly more.

There is another film that was made by a woman named Muchmore and she was located on the other side of the street but the Commission wasn't interested in it and only used 3 stills from it in their investigation. The last that I heard about that film was that it was being restored. She had a similar camera as Zapruder and was filming the motorcade at the same time and her film had considerably more frames than the Zapruder film and clearly showed the brake lights of the Limo come on.

Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 11:47 PM
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This appears to be just a camera and not a video camera, but hard to tell.

Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 11:49 PM
Seralia, I don't recall that name. 'Muchmore'. I recall another name, but my poor memory banks are fried.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 30 2005, 11:51 PM
The Muchmore film has been restored but I'm not sure where to find a copy of it... yet.

Kennedy Assassination Footage Restored

Marie Muchmore Film

January 22, 2003

A film of the assassination of President John F Kennedy in Dallas in 1963 has been digitally restored.

Marie Muchmore's film is said to be one of the three most important made of the event on November 22 that year.

The restoration work was undertaken by archivists at the Associated Press Television Network in London.

They removed dust and scratches and restored the film's clarity in time for the 40th anniversary of JFK's death.

The film was taken as the president's motorcade turned onto Houston Street in Dallas.

It shows the last, fatal shot to the head and a woman who came to be known as the "Babushka lady" filming near the president's car. She never was conclusively identified nor was her film ever retrieved.

Marie Muchmore's film, originally acquired by United Press International, is now part of the library of APTN, which commissioned the restoration.


Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 11:52 PM
Did you know that JFK wants the truth to be told?

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"
~ John F. Kennedy


Posted by: Mark Jan 30 2005, 11:55 PM
Orville Nix... that was the other one. Thanks for the links Seralia.

Der me, I had that one in my file archives already but the quality is very poor and it's a great distance away.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 30 2005, 11:58 PM
I found the third film and it was made by a man named Orville Nix.

JFK Footage Revealed

The Long-Withheld Orville Nix Film
Of JFK Assassination Is Released In Dallas

(The second most important footage of the assassination)

by Mike Crissey, The Associated Press, November 22, 2000

D A L L A S, Nov. 22 — The second most important footage of the assassination of John F. Kennedy has been made available to the public exactly 37 years after his presidency abruptly ended in a hail of bullets.

About 200 people crowded into the Texas Book Depository Building on Tuesday to watch the 24½-second film recorded Nov. 22, 1963, by Orville Nix Sr
The footage is the only known motion picture of the assassination that also shows part of the grassy knoll, the area where speculation about a second gunmen persists.

Filmed from the south curb of Houston Street and the northwest corner of Main Street, the footage contains three scenes: the motorcade entering Dealey Plaza, the last shot of the assassination in front of the grassy knoll, and the panic and confusion afterward.

The most well-known frames of the film show Jackie Kennedy climbing over the trunk of the presidential limousine, scrambling to pick up pieces of the president’s shattered skull, and Secret Service agent Clint Hill climbing onto the trunk.

Vital Evidence

The Nix film is considered by historians and other experts to be the second most important piece of footage because it was filmed from the opposite angle of the Abraham Zapruder film and shows what was going on behind Zapruder in the grassy knoll. In Nix’s film, Zapruder can be seen in a few frames.

Nix donated a first-generation copy and the copyright to the color home movie to The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. The 8 mm camera is also on display at the museum.

“One of the things we hope for the Nix film is that as technology advances ... hopefully we can find something,” said Jeff West, executive director of the museum.

Nix’s son, Orville Nix Jr., told viewers his father’s film was largely happenstance and took so long to reach the public partly because the family wanted to keep their privacy.

“He loved that camera, he was always taking pictures of things and this was something that just happened,” Nix said of his father, who died in 1972. “It was a sad thing to see.”

“Now, I want people to see and draw their own conclusions, it is part of history,” he said.

Original Missing

At the time of the investigation, the FBI used the Nix film to study the assassination and the Warren Commission reproduced six frames. Portions of the film were used in Oliver Stone’s 1991 movie JFK.

Museum officials said the location of the original film is unknown. United Press International purchased it in December 1963, but when UPI returned the copyright to the Nix family — along with several duplicates of the film — the original was missing.

The Nix images were included with footage by Tina Towner Barnes, who also filmed the motorcade, and Malcolm Couch, who rode behind the president as a photographer for Dallas TV station WFAA.

Some of those who attended the invitation-only screening said it gave them a firsthand glimpse of a tragedy many people remember but didn’t witness.

“Many of us only had the radio to initially tell us about the event, the films gave me a different perspective of the assassination,” said Mary Katherine Maddox, 65.


Posted by: Mark Jan 31 2005, 12:11 AM
I've located an avi file of the Muchmore film... downloading now and will post it.

Also, I found a video of the Nix film.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 31 2005, 12:28 AM
The first frame of the 19 frame Nix film animated gif I posted the link to corresponds approximately with Zapruder frame 310 with frame 313 being the fatal head shot. However, in the Nix film the Headshot doesn't seem to happen until the 14th frame. I downloaded the Nix gif and ran it through my microsoft gif animator so that I could view it frame by frame and compare the images with the Zapruder images that WF posted the links to. I used the little girl in frame 310 of the Zapruder film as a reference since she can clearly be seen from the back in the Nix film. Kennedy's head appears to jerk violently backward and then disappears in frames 14 and 15 of the Nix film.

Posted by: Mark Jan 31 2005, 12:29 AM
So far the Muchmore video appears to show nothing. I'll look deeper into it.

EDIT: After watching it a few times... it shows me there WERE NO CARS or OBSTRUCTIONS in front of JFKs limo.

There was NO REASON at ALL for Bill Greer NOT to be able to step on the gas and try and make JFK a harder target to hit after he had been shot in the throat.

I have concluded, Bill Greer was in on it and allowed JFK to be shot multiple times.

Aftering reviewing the Orville Nix video, it clearly shows that Bill Greer punched it - hit that gas pedal - AFTER JFK's head exploded.

I will upload both avi files.

Posted by: Mark Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
Muchmore video
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Posted by: Mark Jan 31 2005, 03:30 AM
Orville Nix Video
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Looks to me like it was all clear in front of JFKs limo and there was no reason for Bill Greer NOT to hit the gas when he heard the first shot fired.

The only excuse could be that he was deaf.

The most logical answer or conclusion is that he was in on it and allowed JFK to be murdered.

But it's mere speculation or opinion on my part.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 31 2005, 01:15 PM
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I'm not sure but I think Zapruder is the man in the tan shirt standing on the other side of the Limo. This would place Zapruder directly across the street from the little girl who is clearly seen in Frame 310. I must admit that I was confused as to where Nix was but after comparing the Zapruder frames to the Nix frames, Nix is standing behind the little girl with at least 4 other people. The lower part of their bodies can be clearly seen in frame 304. I did manage to find out that the shot that occurred in frame 313 corresponded with 00:00:11 of the Nix avi. The girl was directly between Kennedy and Nix and so Nix didn't have a clear view of the head shot. The one particular segment of the film seems to begin almost at the moment that the fatal shot is fired which is a little bit strange as well as both Nix and Zapruder almost being directly across from each other.

One thing that is really beginning to bug me is the sudden jerking motion of the President's head as can be seen in the little gif I made. This was clearly after the head shot. The girl, who up until that point, seems to be almost tagging along with the Limo, suddenly changes direction as if startled by something. This could be when the neck wound actually occurs. It also seems to happen before the Limo accelerates. It also doesn't seem to correspond to any frames of the Zapruder film but I could be wrong. There is something that makes me almost suspect that Jackie might of had something to do with the neck wound. croc.gif

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Posted by: Seralia Jan 31 2005, 01:40 PM
I bet nobody made this connection. blinkNEW.gif

Jackie Bouvier Kennedy Onassis who married John F. Kennedy was tied to the Auchinclosses via her sister’s marriage into the Auchincloss family. The Auchinclosses are Scottish bloodline of the Illuminati. "One can fairly hear the woof and tweet of history whistle through the names of the ramified Auchincloss tribe: Bunt, Grosvenor, Rockefeller, Saltonstall, Tiffany, Vanderbilt and Winthrop among others."5

Aristotle Socrates Onassis -- named after two Greek philosophers, went from being totally broke at age 21 to being a millionaire at age 23. His father’s first name was Socrates. Aristotle was an Illuminati king, a shipping tycoon, an intelligent ruthless hard-driving man, a man of the world who spoke a number of languages such as French, Spanish, English, Italian, and Turkish. He married JFK’s widow. His ever present sunglasses made him look like Al Capone to a number of people.

Jackie Bouvier Kennedy Onassis-Her father was a member of the Society of the Cincinnati, the American equivalent to the Order of the Garter. Her father " Black Jack" was corrupt, what is known as a womanizer. He worked at making a living from the stock market. Jackie’s "step-father" was the Auchincloss family, an elite family. Her step-father’s second wife before Jackie’s mother was Senator Thomas Gore’s daughter. Her step-father was in Naval Intelligence. Jackie went to the schools that the children of the elite go to. On the anniversary of JFK’s assassination, Orville & Jane Freeman were the only ones to remember the date to say or do something about it. Jackie went that day to Central Park and had a good cry.

I also found this interesting piece of information about John Kerry..

Kerry’s family began marrying into power back with his grandfather. And although Kerry’s a playboy who dated Morgan Fairchild and other Hollywood types when it comes to marriage it’s about old money and networking At Yale he dated Jacqueline Kennedy's half-sister, Janet Auchincloss.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 31 2005, 01:57 PM
Was Kennedy actually reacting to being shot in the neck or in the back in this frame? At no point in the frames from 226 to 264 does there appear to be any blood on his hands which is strange because a wound like that would have been fairly bloody.

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Posted by: Without Fear Jan 31 2005, 02:21 PM
Hi Seralia,

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Here’s a layout of the Plaza, with the key people and places identified. Zapruder is standing high up on the wall. His secretary was standing in-front of him to steady him. They are at the top of the clip you posted.

The Dal-Tex building isn’t shown but is located at the top right of the plaza, which is where Files claims the two snipers were based., and he was near to the picket fence, to Zapruders’ right, when he fired the head shot.

I think the Zapruder film has been heavily messed with at around the time of the final shot(s).

I’m interested to see if you can tie the other films together. Its intriguing that the other two films are of such poor quality – they look like poor quality copies - I guess that they might show discrepancies if they were clearer. whistlingNEW2.gif


Posted by: Seralia Jan 31 2005, 02:22 PM
This is the back wound and depending on the trajectory of the bullet, it could of done some damage to his neck or at least caused him to lose his breath for a moment depending on the velocity of the bullet. Perhaps he was even struggling to remove his tie.

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This is the infamous throat wound which was enlarged for one or more reasons after Kennedy's death perhaps to cover up any evidence as to what may have caused it.

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2 different autopsies: Parkland Hospital in Dallas showed that the neck wound on Kennedy was an entry wound. The head wound must have come from a low trajectory.
While Bathesda Naval Hospital in Washington said the neck wound was an exit wound and the head wound came from a high trajectory.

huhNEW.gif The throat wound was not explored.

JFK and Connally were sent to Parkland Hospital. JFK was pronounced dead shortly afterward, and the body was sent to a military hospital for the autopsy to be performed. The autopsy concluded that the cause of death was a gunshot wound to the head as a quarter of Kennedy's brain was blown clear off. The throat wound was not explored, as the military doctors were ordered not to examine the rest of the body. The doctors who performed the autopsy testified at the Garrison Trial, that the rest of the body was not examined, as orders from the superiors stipulated that there was no need to further examine the body, as the cause of death was identified.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 31 2005, 02:39 PM
Was the throat wound made by a bullet or a dagger?

First of all, let's address the issue of the shirt. David Mantik, after studying the shirt at the National Archives, discovered that their is no fabric missing from JFK's shirt. When bullets tear through clothing, they usually remove some fabric but apparently not in this case. Actually, on closer inspection, those slits look more like knife cuts. The slits were probably caused by the Parkland nurses as the tried to cut off Kennedy's shirt. This is highly likely since the first doctor to see Kennedy, Dr. Charles Carrico stated that he did NOT see the slits in the shirt when he first saw Kennedy. Dr. Carrico also stated that he immediately saw the throat wound which was above the collar.

Secondly, their is no hole in the knot or on the edge of the tie. When Harold Weisberg obtained photos of the President's tie, he made this discovery. JFK's tie would have been positioned right over the slits in the shirt and an exiting bullet should have made some hole through the knot or at least nicked the tie's edge. But we can only see a small nick on the left side of the knot, visibly inward from the knot's edge.

Posted by: Without Fear Jan 31 2005, 04:17 PM
Was the throat wound made by a bullet or a dagger?

How about by a surgeons knife?

Look what I found….

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[FBI agents Sibert & O'Neill report]
". and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed

DEFINITION: TRACHEOTOMY; Surgical incision of the trachea through the neck, as to make an artificial opening for breathing.

It would seem that this incision was ‘mistaken’ for a bullet wound.

Regarding the bullet hole in the back;

Further probing determined that the distance travelled by the missile was a short distance, inasmuch that the end of the opening could be felt with the finger.

This bullet could not be located in the body. Enquiries turned up a bullet found on a stretcher in Parklands Hospital. Dr Holmes concluded that it was likely that this bullet could easily have been worked out when cardiac massage was performed in Parkland.

This later became the ‘magic bullet’

Full notes here.

This report only details two wounds to Kennedy, the massive head damage, and the bullet hole in his back.

Its amazing what is still in full public view…

Posted by: Without Fear Jan 31 2005, 06:07 PM
Hi Pupp,
Your picture shows Mary Moorman, with her Polariod camera.

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This is her picture. It also shows Zapruder and his secretary on the wall to the right.

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This picture is taken at the same time as z315 according to this


Posted by: Mark Jan 31 2005, 06:23 PM
Thanks Without Fear, I wasn't sure of the camera due to the distorted (probably intentionally) blurred Zapruder footage.

I'll do a recap summary soon and go thru this thread and delete any meaningless texts.

Without Fear, your summary on a previous page is very noteworthy and I shall use your text and add to it.

Posted by: Seralia Jan 31 2005, 11:12 PM
QUOTE (Without Fear @ Jan 31 2005, 04:17 PM)
How about by a surgeons knife?

That might be a possibility but Dr. Perry who had performed the trachaeotomy on Kennedy did state that he used an already existing wound. The wound was also seen by Dr. Crenshaw.

When John F. Kennedy was shot on 22nd November, 1963, he was taken to the hospital and was treated by Dr. Malcolm Perry. Perry performed a tracheotomy over the small wound in Kennedy's throat, therefore inadvertently destroying crucial evidence concerning the direction of the bullet that hit the president. At the press conference that followed the death of Kennedy, Perry stated that he thought the throat hole looked like an entrance wound.

Crenshaw also treated Kennedy at Parkland Hospital. He later stated: "Two wounds were visible. There was a small, round opening in the front of the midline of the throat. This became the site of Dr. Malcolm Perry's tracheotomy incision. In the occipito-parietal region at the right rear of the head, there was an avulsive wound nearly as large as a fist.... I considered the throat wound to be an entrance wound and the large head wound to be an exit wound. Along with many of my Parkland colleagues, I believed at the time that President Kennedy had been hit twice from the front."

Kellerman stated the following concerning Kennedy's wounds:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have observed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate with--the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat or an exit.

Here's a little additional information about the holes in the front of the shirt as well as another doctor who had seen the throat wound.

The slits are indeed irregular. They are not the same length, nor are they the same shape--they are similar but not identical (84:244-245). It is more likely that they were with a scalpel by one of the nurses as they removed the President's shirt. Moreover, the slits are below the band of the collar, which refutes the theory that the throat wound was neat because the collar band kept the skin around the wound from stretching out and becoming torn. Another possibility is that the slits were made deliberately after the assassination in order to make it appear that a bullet had exited the throat.

Furthermore, no metallic traces of any kind were found around the hole in the shirt and the nick in the tie. Yet, such traces were found around the holes in the back of the coat and shirt. Additionally, according to Dr. Charles Carrico, who saw the throat wound before Kennedy's shirt and tie were removed, the bullet hole was ABOVE the knot of the tie.

The nick in the tie's knot presents a particularly severe problem for the single-bullet theory. Photographs of the knot show the nick to be visibly inward from the knot's left edge (84:247). What's more, the HSCA admitted that there was no hole in the back of the tie. How, then, could a bullet have produced this nick? If a bullet had exited JFK's throat and grazed the left edge of the tie's knot, the resulting nick would be on the edge of knot. Yet, photos of the tie clearly show the nick clearly inward from the left edge.

The tie might not be in its original configuration, since it was allegedly untied and then retied. However, even if the nick originally was on the knot's left edge, one would think the FBI would have been certain to photograph it in this configuration. One of the photos of the tie shows the nick almost dead-center in the middle of the knot. The other photos show the nick slightly farther to the left but still clearly inward from the knot's left edge. If the tie was in fact untied and then retied, the logical conclusion would seem to be that one of those photo shots of the tie was taken before the tie was untied and that the other was taken after it was retied.

Other doctors testified that they too had seen the throat wound:

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this area below here?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time. (6 H 71)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first saw him?

Dr. AKIN. There was a midline neck wound below the level of the cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding. (6 H 65)

Dr. Ronald Jones, one of Parkland's senior resident surgeons, also saw the throat wound. He says, "The neck wound could have been either an entrance or an exit. I only called it an entrance wound because I did not know about the back wound."

Of the five doctors who saw the wound, Dr. Pepper Jenkins had the most experience with gunshot wounds of anyone at Parkland. Jenkins says, "Even at that time, I was convinced it was a wound of exit because it was bigger than an entrance wound should be. Entrance wounds, as you look at them, are small and round, and may have a halo around them, black, from the bullet. But it makes a clean wound. When a bullet goes through the body, tissue moves in front of it and bursts."(15)

The throat wound puzzled the surgeons who attended Mr. Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital when they learned how the Dallas police had reconstructed the shooting. Dr. Robert McClelland, one of the three doctors who worked on the throat wound, told me afterward that they still believed it to be an entry wound, even though the shots were said to have been fired from almost directly behind the President. He explained that he and his colleagues at Parkland saw bullet wounds every day, sometimes several a day, and recognized easily the characteristically tiny hole of an entering bullet, in contrast to the larger, tearing hole that an exiting bullet would have left.

And there's still another theory for the throat wound:

The use of a paralyzing dart or flechette, fired by UM, could explain why the President, after the first bullet hit him, remained upright, an easy target, instead of falling and thus possibly avoiding the lethal shot to follow. JFK was wearing a back brace that day that impeded movement, but could the conspirators be sure he would do that? They had available to them a way to paralyze JFK's muscles, from close range, to set him up for the kill, to make him an immobilized sitting duck for the Dealey Plaza shooters, rather than hope he'd be wearing a brace. What's more, the dissolving flechette explains the small wound, for which no bullet was found, and which was seemingly too small to be caused by a bullet, in JFK's throat. The small hole was thought to be a wound of entry by attending Dallas physicians, who enlarged it to perform a tracheotomy. 16 (The official autopsy report concluded that it was an exit wound. Such a wound would have been larger, but the official findings had to concur, of course, with the single-bullet theory concocted by Warren Commission attorney Arlen Specter, to support the lone-gunman story, through impossible alignment of the throat wound with a back entry wound--originally found to be only a finger's length deep--in JFK's shoulder. [Repeat, in JFK's shoulder, not, as Specter and other Warren Commission apologists persist in saying, the "back of the neck."] 17

Posted by: Mark Feb 1 2005, 01:06 PM
"Along with many of my Parkland colleagues, I believed at the time that President Kennedy had been hit twice from the front."
~ Dr. Crenshaw

Yes, my common sense and reasoning determined many years ago that JFK was shot from the front.

Which would make the whole Texas Depository story a lie.

And Lee Harvey Ozwald was merely made a patsy for the sadistic cruel beings without compassion who continue to rule over us today as they wage wars over lies for profits and mass suffering.

Posted by: Without Fear Feb 1 2005, 02:59 PM
Thanks for all that detail on the throat wound.

When I read through all those links, it seems that there was little agreement about where most (or even all) the bullet(s) hit the skull and the body, never mind the direction.

It’s amazing that there is so very little clarity about the wounds.

It seems that either it was a very an amateurish autopsy, examination and record keeping, or it was (is) deliberately muddied to cause maximum confusion.

Despite its many years, it’s still a riveting study.


Posted by: Seralia Feb 1 2005, 09:10 PM
Yes, my common sense and reasoning determined many years ago that JFK was shot from the front.

Which would make the whole Texas Depository story a lie.

Kennedy was most likely shot by three snipers with one in the Dal-tex building, one on the grassy knoll and one in the storm drain with the possibility of a fourth somewhere else. There is still a bit of controversy as to what caused the 5mm throat wound since there would have been a considerable amount of damage to Kennedy's neck if it had been caused by a high powered bullet.

Thanks for all that detail on the throat wound.

When I read through all those links, it seems that there was little agreement about where most (or even all) the bullet(s) hit the skull and the body, never mind the direction.

It’s amazing that there is so very little clarity about the wounds.

It seems that either it was a very an amateurish autopsy, examination and record keeping, or it was (is) deliberately muddied to cause maximum confusion.

The fact that officer Tippet was shot just 40 minutes after Kennedy and suffered from nearly identical wounds would have definitely confused things a bit if the bodies were somehow switched between the hospital and Bethesda or doctors working on both men had been confused about whom they had been working on.

BODY DOUBLE? The murder of Dallas Policeman J.D. Tippet is a confusing twist to the story of the assassination. Why was he killed, and by whom? I don't know the answer to that question, but I can say that Tippet looked so much like the President that people often commented about it. He was killed 40 minutes after the President and taken to the same hospital, with a bullet wound to his head being the cause of death. Eerily enough, Tippet's wounds were identical to those reported by the JFK autopsy. Tippet was buried the following day in a closed casket. An examination of photos of Tippet and Kennedy shows great resemblance. Could he have been murdered so that his body could be used for x-rays and other forensics available at the time? Was J.D. Tippet ultimately buried at Arlington Cemetery? As shocking as this may seem, consider the words of Senator Robert F. Kennedy as he viewed the body in the open casket. William Manchester reports that as RFK looked at his "brother" for the last time, he said: "It doesn't look like him at all".  Manchester's news story continues, "His eyes full, the Attorney General turned to Bill Walton and whispered, 'Please look, I want to know what you think.' Walton looked as long as he could, with a growing sense of outrage. He said to Bob, 'You mustn't keep it open. It has no resemblance to the President.'"

Arthur Schlesinger said: "It is appalling,...At first glance it seemed all right, but I am nearsighted. When I came closer it looked less and less like him."
And Jacqueline Kennedy said, "It wasn't Jack. It was like something you would see at Madame Tussaud's."

There were a number of errors that occurred which also added to the confusion.

During the House Select Committee on Assassinations investigation into the autopsy of President Kennedy, they found the following errors:

1.The President’s body was taken out of the hands of those responsible for investigation of the death and autopsy-Texas authorities.

2.Those performing the autopsy had insufficient training and experience to evaluate a death from gunshot wounds.

3. Physicians who treated the President at Parkland Hospital were not consulted before beginning the autopsy.

4.Proper photographs were not taken.

5.The President’s clothing was not examined.

6.The autopsy procedure was incomplete because:

a. External examination failed to accurately locate wounds

b. The bullet tracks were not dissected to determine their course through the body.

c. The angles of the bullet tracks through the body were not measured relative to the body axis.

d. The brain was not properly examined and sectioned.

7. The report was incomplete, inaccurate, and prepared without reference to photographs.

8. The head wound location was incorrect.

9. Other wounds of the President’s body were not localized with reference to fixed body landmarks so as to permit reconstruction of trajectories.

Posted by: Mark Feb 1 2005, 09:44 PM
Officer J.D. Tippit (Tippet???)

user posted image

What is the correct spelling of his name?

Dang websites all have different spellings.

Posted by: Seralia Feb 1 2005, 09:50 PM
I found a portion of Jackie Kennedy's testimony before the Warren Commission that I thought was kind of interesting since there are things that she seemed to forget about for some reason. This was also one of the shortest testemonies on record and only took up less than three pages in its entirety.

Mrs. Kennedy: You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles, besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no."

Mr. Rankin: Did he turn toward you?

Mrs. Kennedy:No; I was looking this way, to the left, and I heard these terrible noises. You know. And my husband never made any sound. So I turned to the right. And all I remember is seeing my husband, he had this sort of quizzical look on his face, and his hand was up, it must have been his left hand. And just as I turned and looked at him, I could see a piece of his skull and I remember it was flesh colored. I remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. And I just remember seeing that. No blood or anything.

And then he sort of did this [indicating], put his hand to his forehead and fell in my lap. And then I just remember falling on him and saying, "Oh, no, no, no," I mean, "Oh, my God, they have shot my husband." And "I love you, Jack," I remember I was shouting. And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity.

You know, then, there were pictures later on of me climbing out the back. But I don't remember that at all.

Mr. Rankin: Do you remember Mr. Hill coming to try to help on the car?

Mrs. Kennedy: I don't remember anything. I was just down like that.And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital,"or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat. But someone yelling. I was just down and holding him. [Reference to wounds deleted.]

Mr. Rankin: Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots?

Mrs. Kennedy: Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.

And I read there was a third shot. But I don't know. Just those two.

Of course there was a considerable amount of controversy concerning the transcript of Jackie's testimony.

Warren Commission Suppressed Jackie's Testimony On JFK's Head Wound

Court Reporter's Tape Shows Additional Description Withheld

Dallas, TX -- August 5, 2001 -- JFK Lancer, an historical research firm reports that the Court Reporter's tape shows Jacqueline Kennedy's testimony before the Warren Commission had additional descriptions which were withheld.

Mrs. Kennedy testified in a short private session held at her home in Washington, D.C., with Chief Justice Earl Warren, Commission General Council J. Lee Rankin, Attorney General Robert Kennedy, and a court reporter in attendance. Testimony of witnesses before the Warren Commission was made public in the fall of 1964. Jacqueline Kennedy's testimony was also released containing her description of her husbands wounds which read :

"And just as I turned and looked at him, I could see a piece of his skull and I remember it was flesh colored. I remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. And I just remember seeing that. No blood or anything."

But a second section in which she described the wounds she saw carried only the notation: (Reference to Wounds Deleted).

Although very few Americans actually read those transcripts, historians and researchers who did read them were outraged, and waged a legal battle to have the omitted testimony released. In the early 1970s, a court decision required the United States Government to disclose to the public the contents of the still classified section of Mrs. Kennedy's 1964 Warren Commission testimony. Her previously withheld statement read:

" I was trying to hold his hair on. From the front there was nothing --- I suppose there must have been. But from the back you could see, you know, you were trying to hold his hair on, and his skull on."

Releasing this previously withheld section gave researchers what was assumed to be Mrs. Kennedy's complete description of the President's head wounds.

Researchers took for granted that the hand-typed transcript page released by the National Archives from the official records of the Warren Commission ended the matter.

However, new analysis reveals that the original court tape actually reads:

"... I could see a piece of his skull sort of wedge-shaped, like that, and I remember that it was flesh colored with little ridges at the top."

Filmmaker Mark Sobel found the discrepancy while doing research for a forthcoming documentary on JFK. Sobel explained, "I was quite surprised to find that Mrs. Kennedy was not asked for more detail --- she had an opportunity to view the wounds longer and closer than any other person as they originally existed. Given the seemingly contradictory testimony by the doctors who treated the President at Parkland Hospital in Dallas just after the shooting and the Doctors who performed the autopsy at Bethesda many hours later, Mrs. Kennedy's testimony would appear critical."

Sobel filed under the Freedom of Information Act to have the court reporter's original tape of Mrs. Kennedy's testimony unsealed, citing that the content had already been fully declassified by the courts and that it was in the best interest of the public for the accuracy of the existing transcript to be verified. Sobel explained, "As I compared the 1964 transcript to the original court reporter's paper tape, I reached a sentence officially transcribed by the Warren Commission as: "I could see a piece of his skull, and I remember that it was flesh colored" words on the original paper taped no longer matched up."

Court Reporter Kathy Bradford of Bradford Court Reporting of Dallas, Texas, agreed. Bradford reviewed the transcript from the archives and certified Mrs. Kennedy's complete statement was not found in the Warren Commission's version..

This extra description was almost certainly witheld from the Commissioners and Legal Staff as well, since these descriptions are missing in the typed transcript that is contained in the actual Warren Commission Records --- before it was finally released publicly in its entirety.

Apprised of these new details, David Mantik, M.D., Ph.D. stated, "Given the lack of follow-up in Mrs. Kennedy's description to exactly what she saw, these details could have been valuable to the House Select Committee on Assassinations that reviewed the medical evidence." Mantik is one of the few doctors allowed to view President Kennedy's original autopsy materials in the National Archives.

Secret Service Agent Clint Hill, seen in films and photos in Dealey Plaza climbing onto the rear of the limousine, stated in his Warren Commission testimony,
"Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car."

Debra Conway of JFK Lancer, says that the court reporter's tape is now on their web site. Conway stated, "Mrs. Kennedy also describes this piece of skull to historian Theodore White in her famous 'Camelot' interview where she told him, 'I could see a piece of his skull coming off; it was flesh colored not white--' This is very similar to what she said to the Warren Commission."

Conway went on to explain, "There were pieces of skull found in the street and in the limousine. The piece of skull described by Mrs. Kennedy could have been one of those later found in the street, the limousine, or an avulsed piece still attached to his head."

Researcher Barb Junkkarinen, who specializes in the medical evidence of the Kennedy assassination and is the Director of the JFK Alliance for Open Archives organization, told JFK Lancer, "The real 'find' here is that two specific descriptions of the head wound by Mrs. Kennedy (that the skull piece was wedge shaped, and that it had little ridges at the top) are not included in what is supposed to be the full and complete transcript of her testimony."

In his memoirs, Senator Arlen Specter, a Junior Council for the Warren Commission in 1964, suggests that the minimal testimony taken from Mrs. Kennedy was due to Earl Warren wishing to be protective of her, and that the handling of her testimony created some distress among other Commissioners and Legal Staff. However, in formerly Top Secret transcripts of the meetings of the seven Commissioners, Commissioner John J. McCloy repeatedly emphasized the importance of obtaining such testimony as quickly as possible "She's the best witness," he said "as to how those bullets struck her husband."

Junkkarinen adds, "Why they would withhold an accurate description is open to debate, but the fact that they put out an altered transcript is telling. How many other transcripts may have fallen victim to the same shenanigans? This is a find that proves alteration of original evidence, and that is important.

About a week after JFK had been assassinated, Jackie did an interview with writer, Theodore H. White, which appeared in the December 6, 1963 of LIFE magizine which seemed to be better than her testimony before the Warren Commission.

They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little
backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a
backfire. Then next I saw Connelly grabbing his arms and
saying `no no no nonono,' with his fist beating--then Jack turned
and I turned--all I remember was a blue gray building up ahead;
then Jack turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat;
he had his hand out, I could see a piece of his skull coming off;
it was flesh colored not white--he was holding out his hand--and
I can see this perfectly clean piece detaching itself from his
head; then he slumped in my lap...Then Clint Hill, he loved us,
he was the first man in the car...we all lay down in the car and I
kept saying `Jack, Jack, Jack' and someone was yelling `he's
dead he's dead.' All the ride to the hospital I kept bending over
him saying `Jack, Jack can you hear me, I love you Jack.' I kept
holding the top of his head down trying to keep the...that long
ride to the hospital...these big Texan interns kept saying `Mrs.
Kennedy you come with us,' they wanted to take me away from
him. Dave Powers came running to me, my legs my hands were
covered with his brains...when Dave Powers saw this he burst
out weeping. From here down"(here Mrs. Kennedy made a
gesture about the level of the forehead above the eyes) "his head
was so beautiful. I'd tried to hold the top of his head down,
maybe I could keep it in...I knew he was dead...

"They came trying to get me; they tried to grab me; but I
said I'm not leaving. When they carried Jack in, Hill threw his
coat over Jack's head, and I held his head to throw the coat over
it. It wasn't repulsive to me for one moment--nothing was
repulsive to me--and I was running behind this big intern, I was
running behind with the coat covering it.

Posted by: JenThom Feb 2 2005, 12:44 AM
QUOTE (Seralia @ Feb 1 2005, 09:10 PM)
Kennedy was most likely shot by three snipers with one in the Dal-tex building, one on the grassy knoll and one in the storm drain with the possibility of a fourth somewhere else.

I wouldn't rule out the depository completely. There were two rifles that were said to have come from there. The one that was supposedly found in Oswald's decoy position was positively identified as a Mauser and then the Carcana rifle turned up. Someone could have used the Carcana to wound Conally and then switched it with the Mauser. I think that the Mauser was the official weapon for a few days and then it disappeared and was replaced by the Carcana.

I noticed that there seemed to definitely be some masonic symbology and found this map of Dealy Plaza that had a map of the Orion Constellation added to it.

user posted image

One night this past month I was outside my house looking into the western sky and I happened to be thinking about the Kennedy assassination from reading Jim Garrison's book"On the Trail of the Assassins." I looked up and got a pretty good view of the constellation of Orion. While I was looking at the constellation, I also happened to be thinking about the assassination and in my minds eye I wondered what would happen if I superimposed the Orion constellation over Dealey Plaza in Dallas.

I began to realize something that every JFK conspiracy buff from Robert Groden(author of"The Killing of a President") to William Cooper(author of"Behold a Pale Horse") to Richard C. Hoagland seemed to have missed but at the same time ties all of their theories together. I used a graphics program on my computer to lay out the constellation of Orion over a drawing of Dealey Plaza and once I was finished I got the shock of my life. I figured out the"how" of JFK assassination. The diagram is included with this report.

Posted by: Mark Feb 2 2005, 02:20 AM

One of the messages I received in 2002....

"Look towards Orions Belt for a sign"

It just gets deeper and deeper!

Posted by: Mark Feb 5 2005, 04:44 AM
I just came across this...

The King of the Night's darkest hour

Johnny Carson and the Kennedy assassination

By Larry Chin
Online Journal Associate Editor
January 28, 2005

Even in glints of light and joy, there is the darkness of unacknowledged realities and suppressed nightmare.

As America mourns the death of late night TV icon Johnny Carson, fondly reminiscing over decades of gags and laughs, few bother recalling the single most telling "Carson moment" there ever was.

On January 31, 1968, New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison appeared on the Tonight Show to discuss his investigation into US government involvement in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

(Listen to the archived tape of this telecast at "Johnny Carson interviews Jim Garrison", Parts One and Two,
or at Garrison on "The Tonight Show" with Johnny Carson. )

Over the course of 90 minutes, the smiles and yucks went silent. Carson, America's chuckling nighttime buddy, everybody's friend, was the assassin. He badgered, belittled, and mocked Garrison, repeatedly interrupting Garrison as he made an impassioned plea to the American people to question the official story of the JFK assassination.

When Garrison attempted to show the photograph of the infamous "Three Tramps" (still unidentified mystery men who were arrested behind the Grassy Knoll and marched through Dealey Plaza, likely members of the assassination team), Carson made sure America would not see it. He yanked Garrison's arm aside, and cut the cameras.

Garrison later mused:

"Why had I been debriefed in advance so that Carson could be apprised of my likely answers? Why had Carson pulled my arm away so that the photographs were out of camera range? And why had the director and the control room switched the camera so that the photographs could not be seen? The only reasonable, realistic explanation, I found myself concluding, was control."

"Some long-cherished illusions of mine about the great free press in our country underwent a painful reappraisal during this period. The restraint and respect for justice one might expect from the press . . . did not exist".

As noted by Maureen Farrell, the "unholy alliance between the media and the government," in covering up government crimes, was evident that night:

"The function of the Warren Commission was to make the American people feel that the [JFK assassination] had been looked into so that there would be no further inquiries," Garrison told an incredulous Carson.

"I just can't understand how you think that these men think they can get away with it or for what reason they would do it," Carson later responded.

By 9:00 the next morning, Garrison had received more than 2,000 telegrams from district attorneys across America, who felt that Carson's "nervous antagonism," was a sign that Garrison was onto something. Feeling the need to apologize for Carson's demeanor (which was nevertheless polite and jovial by today's shout-fest standards), NBC sent out thousands of form letters saying, "The Johnny seen on TV that night was not the Johnny we all know and love. He had to play the devil's advocate, because that makes for a better program."

Carson was furious about NBC's letter, and promised never to allow Garrison on his program again.

It is no surprise that today, as mainstream corporate media is flooded with "happy" Johnny Carson memories and magnificent tomes about how the charming Carson "epitomized the goodness of middle America," the Garrison interview—the one glaring moment that exposed Carson as a peevish, patronizing, gatekeeping servant of larger forces continues to be studiously avoided.

Time, and the historical facts, have fully vindicated the late Garrison. Oliver Stone's film JFK, which included an amusing version of the Carson interview (Stone depicted his fictional Garrison protagonist being badgered by an obnoxious talk show host named "Johnny Johnson," played by John Laroquette.)

Here we find something to truly mourn: Johnny Carson, on that night in 1968, had the power to change the world. He chose to use that power to destroy a courageous whistleblower, kill truth, and keep America naïve and stupid.

As one television critic wrote of Carson, "he rode his droll detachment and bemused self-effacement through wars and assassinations, riots and Watergate." But Carson, like many other powerful public figures and Hollywood celebrities, did little to address these serious events, except to provide water cooler humor and lampoons (ultimately giving birth to brain-addling sound-bite entertainment politics, epitomized by Jon Stewart, Jay Leno's Tonight Show, Saturday Night Live, etc.), and worse.

Theerre's Johnny.

Posted by: Without Fear Feb 16 2005, 02:10 PM
Disappearing Witnesses.

Was looking for something else, and came over these two links of deceased JFK witnesses. I hadn’t seen a copy here, so thought I’d add them to the pot.


Posted by: Mark Feb 16 2005, 02:36 PM
By Penn Jones, Jr.
(from The Rebel magazine, Nov. 22, 1983)

Over 100 murders, suicides, mysterious deaths--the strange fate of those who saw Kennedy shot.

(Apparently Lee Harvey Ozwald also witnessed JFKs murder as he was in the doorway as shown earlier in this thread. - PuPP)

Jack Rubenstein (Ruby) Shooting and Killing Lee Harvey Ozwald

user posted image

Shortly after dark on Sunday night November 24, 1963, after Ruby had killed Lee Harvey Oswald, a meeting took place in Jack Ruby's apartment in Oak Cliff, a suburb of Dallas, Texas. Five persons were present. George Senator and Attorney Tom Howard were present and having a drink in the apartment when two newsmen arrived. The newsmen were Bill Hunter of the Long Beach California Press Telegram, and Jim Koethe of the Dallas Times Herald. Attorney C.A. Droby of Dallas arranged the meeting for the two newsmen. Jim Martin, a close friend of George Senator's, was also present at the apartment meeting.

This writer asked Martin if he thought it was unusual for Senator to forget the meeting while testifying in Washington on April 22, 1964, since Bill Hunter, who was a newsman present at the meeting, was shot to death that very night. Martin grinned and said:

"Oh, you're looking for a conspiracy."

I nodded yes and he grinned and said,
"You will never find it."

I asked soberly,
"Never find it, or not there?"

He added soberly,
"Not there."

Bill Hunter, a native of Dallas and an award winning newsman in Long Beach, was on duty and reading a book in the police station called "Public Safety Building." Two policemen going off duty came into the press room, and one policeman shot Hunter through the heart at a range officially ruled to be "no more than three feet." The policeman said he dropped his gun, and it fired as he picked it up, but the angle of the bullet caused him to change his story. He finally said he was playing a game of quick draw with his fellow officer. The other officer testified he had his back turned when the shooting took place.

Hunter, who covered the assassination for his paper, the Long Beach Press Telegram, had written:

"Within minutes of Ruby's execution of Oswald, before the eyes of millions watching television, at least two Dallas attorneys appeared to talk with him."

Hunter was quoting Tom Howard who died of a heart attack in Dallas a few months after Hunter's own death. Lawyer Tom Howard was observed acting strangely to his friends two days before his death. Howard was taken to the hospital by a "friend" according to the newspapers. No autopsy was performed.

Dallas Times Herald reporter Jim Koethe was killed by a karate chop to the throat just as he emerged from a shower in his apartment on September 21, 1964. His murderer was not indicted.

What went on in that significant meeting in Ruby's and Senator's apartment?

Few are left to tell. There is no one in authority to ask the question, since the Warren Commission has made its final report, and The House Select Committee has closed its investigation.

Dorothy Kilgallen was another reporter who died strangely and suddenly after her involvement in the Kennedy assassination. Miss Kilgallen is the only journalist who was granted a private interview with Jack Ruby after he killed Lee Harvey Oswald. Judge Joe B. Brown granted the interview during the course of the Ruby trial in Dallas--to the intense anger of the hundreds of other newspeople present.

We will not divulge exactly what Miss Kilgallen did to obtain the interview with Ruby. But Judge Brown bragged about the price paid. Only that was not the real price Miss Kilgallen paid. She gave her life for the interview. Miss Kilgallen stated that she was "going to break this case wide open."

She died on November 8, 1965. Her autopsy report took eight days. She was 52 years old. Two days later Mrs. Earl T. Smith, a close friend of Miss Kilgallen's died of undetermined causes.

Tom Howard, who died of a heart attack, was a good friend of District Attorney Henry Wade, although they often opposed each other in court. Howard was close to Ruby and other fringes of the Dallas underworld.

Like Ruby, Howard's life revolved around the police station, and it was not surprising when he and Ruby (toting his gun) showed up at the station on the evening of the assassination of President Kennedy. Nor was it unusual when Howard arrived at the jail shortly after Ruby shot Oswald, asking to see his old friend.

Howard was shown into a meeting room to see a bewildered Ruby who had not asked for a lawyer. For the next two days--until Ruby's brother, Earl, soured on him, and had Howard relieved--he was Jack Ruby's chief attorney and public spokesman.

Howard took to the publicity with alacrity, called a press conference, wheeled and dealed. He told newsmen the case was a "once-in-a-lifetime chance," and that "speaking as a private citizen," he thought Ruby deserved a Congressional medal. He told the Houston Post that Ruby had been in the police station Friday night (November 22, 1963) with a gun. Howard dickered with a national magazine for an Oswald murder story. He got hold of a picture showing the President's brains flying out of the car, and tried to sell it to Life magazine. Ruby's sister, Eva Grant, even accused Howard of leaking information to the DA. It was never quite clear whether Howard was working for Ruby or against him.

On March 27, 1965, Howard was taken to a hospital by an unidentified person and died there. He was 48. The doctor, without benefit of an autopsy, said he had suffered a heart attack. Some reporters and friends of Howard's were not so certain. Some said he was "bumped off."

Earlene Roberts was the plump widow who managed the rooming house where Lee Harvey Oswald was living under the name O. H. Lee. She testified before the Warren Commission that she saw Oswald come home around one o'clock, go to his room for three or four minutes and walk out zipping his light weight jacket. A few minutes later, a mile away, officer J. D. Tippit was shot dead.

Mrs. Roberts testified that while Oswald was in his room, two uniformed cops pulled up in front of the rooming house and honked twice--"Just tit tit," she said.

The police department issued a report saying all patrol cars in the area, except Tippit's, were accounted for. The Warren Commission let it go at that.

After testifying in Dallas in April 1964, Mrs. Roberts was subjected to intensive police harassment. They visited her at all hours of the day and night. Earlene complained of being "worried to death" by the police. She died on January 9, 1966 in Parkland Hospital (the hospital where President Kennedy was taken). Police said she suffered a heart attack in her home. No autopsy was performed.

Warren Reynolds was minding his used car lot on East Jefferson Street in Oak Cliff in Dallas, when he heard shots two blocks away. He thought it was a marital quarrel. Then he saw a man having a great difficulty tucking "a pistol or an automatic" in his belt, and running at the same time. Reynolds gave chase for a short piece being careful to keep his distance, then lost the fleeing man. He didn't know it then, but he had apparently witnessed the flight of the killer (or one of the killers) of patrolman Jefferson David Tippit. Feeling helpful, he gave his name to a passing policeman and offered his cooperation. Television cameras zeroed in on him, got his story, and made him well known. Warren Reynolds, the amiable used car man, was making history.

Reynolds was not questioned until two months after the event. The FBI finally talked to him in January 1964. The FBI interview report said, " . . . he was hesitant to definitely identify Oswald as the individual." Then it added, "He advised he is of the opinion Oswald is the person."

Two days after Reynolds talked to the FBI, he was shot in the head. He was closing up his used car lot for the night at the time. Nothing was stolen. Later after consulting retired General Edwin Walker (the man Oswald allegedly shot at before he assassinated President Kennedy), he told the Warren Commission Counsel that Oswald was definitely the man he saw fleeing the Tippit murder scene.

A young hood was arrested for the murder attempt. Darrell Wayne Garner had called a relative bragging that he shot Reynolds. But Garner had an alibi, Nancy Jane Mooney, alias Betty McDonald, who said Garner was in bed with her at the time he was supposed to have shot Reynolds. Nancy Jane had worked at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club. Garner was freed.

Nancy Jane was picked up a week later for fighting with a girlfriend. She was arrested for disturbing the peace. The girlfriend was not arrested. Within hours after her arrest, Nancy Jane was dead. Police reports said she hanged herself with her toreador pants.

Reynolds and his family were harassed and threatened. But upon giving the Warren Commission a firm identification of Oswald as being the Tippit murder fugitive, he said, "I don't think they are going to bother me any more."

Hank Killam was a house painter who lived at Mrs. A.C. Johnson's rooming house at the same time Lee Harvey Oswald lived there. His wife, Wanda, once pushed cigarettes and drinks at Jack Ruby's club.

Hank was a big man, over six feet and weighing over 200 pounds. After the assassination, federal agents visited him repeatedly causing him to lose one job after another.

Killam was absorbed by the assassination, even obsessed. Hours after the event, he came home, "white as a sheet." Wanda said he stayed up all night watching the television accounts of the assassination. Later he bought all the papers and clipped the stories about Kennedy's death.

Before Christmas, Killam left for Florida. Wanda confessed where he was. Federal agents hounded him in Tampa, Florida where he was working selling cars at his brother-in-law's car lot. He lost his job.

Killam wrote Wanda that he would be sending for her soon. He received a phone call on St. Patrick's day. He left the house immediately. He was found later on a sidewalk in front of a broken window. His jugular vein was cut. He bled to death en route to the hospital.

There is no mention of Killam by the Warren Commission. A number of FBI documents on Killam relating to the assassination were withheld, along with documents prepared by the CIA. What is clear is that SOMEBODY considered Hank Killam a very important guy.

William Whaley was known as the "Oswald Cabbie." He was one of the few who had the opportunity to talk alone with the accused killer of President Kennedy. He testified that Oswald hailed him at the Dallas Greyhound bus station. Whaley said he drove Oswald to the intersection of Beckley and Neches--half a block from the rooming house--and collected a dollar. Later he identified Oswald as his fare in a questionable police line-up.

Whaley was killed in a head-on collision on a bridge over the Trinity River, December 18, 1965; his passenger was critically injured. The 83 year old driver of the other car was also killed. Whaley had been with the City Transportation Company since 1936 and had a perfect driving record. He was the first Dallas cabbie to be killed on duty since 1937. When I went to interview the manager of the cab company about Whaley's death, he literally pushed me out of the office, "If you're smart, you won't be coming around here asking questions."

Domingo Benavides, an auto mechanic, was witness to the murder of Officer Tippit. Benavides testified he got a "really good view of the slayer."

Benavides said the killer resembled newspaper pictures of Oswald, but he described him differently, "I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline went square instead of tapered off . . ."

Benavides reported he was repeatedly threatened by the police who advised him not to talk about what he saw.

In mid-February 1964, his brother Eddy, who resembled him, was fatally shot in the back of the head at a beer joint on Second Avenue in Dallas. The case was marked "unsolved."

Benavides's father-in-law J. W. Jackson was not impressed by the investigation. He began his own inquiry. Two weeks later, J.W. Jackson was shot at his home. As the gunman escaped, a police car came around the block. It made no attempt to follow the speeding car with the gunman.

The police advised that Jackson should "lay off this business." "Don't go around asking questions; that's our job." Jackson and Benavides are both convinced that Eddy's murder was a case of mistaken identity and that Domingo Benavides, the Tippit witness was the intended victim.

Lee Bowers's testimony is perhaps as explosive as any recorded by the Warren Commission. He was one of the 65 witnesses who saw the President's assassination, and who thought shots were fired from the area of the Grassy Knoll. (The Knoll is west of the Texas School Book Depository Building.) But more than that, he was in a unique position to observe some pretty strange behavior in the Knoll area before and during the assassination.

Bowers, then a towerman for the Union Terminal Co., was stationed in his 14 foot tower directly behind the Grassy Knoll. He faced the scene of the assassination. He could see the railroad overpass to his right. Directly in front of him was a parking lot and a wooden stockade fence, and a row of trees running along the top of the Grassy Knoll. The Knoll sloped down to the spot on Elm Street where the President was killed. Police had "cut off" traffic into the parking lot, Bowers said, "so that anyone moving around could actually be observed."

Bowers made two significant observations which he revealed to the Warren Commission. First, he saw three unfamiliar cars slowly cruising around the parking area in the 35 minutes before the assassination; the first two left after a few minutes. The driver of the second car appeared to be talking into a "mic or telephone"; "he was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other." A third car with out-of-state license plates and mud up to the windows, probed all around the parking area. Bowers last remembered seeing it about eight minutes before the shooting, pausing "just above the assassination site."

Bowers also observed two unfamiliar men standing on the top of the Knoll at the edge of the parking lot, within 10 or 15 feet of each other. "One man, middle aged or slightly older, fairly heavy set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another man, younger, about mid-twenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket." Both were facing toward Elm and Houston in anticipation of the motorcade. The two were the only strangers he remembered seeing. His description shows a remarkable similarity to Julia Ann Mercer's description of two unidentified men climbing the Knoll.

When the shots rang out, Bowers's attention was drawn to the area where he had seen the two men; he could still make out the one in the white shirt: "The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees."

Bowers observed "some commotion" at that spot . . .," " . . . something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around . . . which attracted my eye for some reason which I could not identify." At that moment, a motorcycle policeman left the Presidential motorcade and roared up the Grassy Knoll, straight to where the two mysterious gentlemen were standing. Later, Powers testified that the "commotion" that caught his eye may have been a "flash of light or smoke."

On the morning of August 9, 1966, Lee Powers, vice president of a construction firm, was driving south of Dallas on business. He was two miles south of Midlothian, Texas when his brand new company car veered from the road and hit a bridge abutment. A farmer who saw it, said the car was going about 50 miles an hour, a slow speed for that road.

Bowers died in a Dallas hospital. He was 41. There was no autopsy and he was cremated. A doctor from Midlothian who rode to Dallas in the ambulance with Bowers, noticed something peculiar about the victim. "He was in some strange sort of shock." The doctor said, "A different kind of shock than an accident victim experiences. I can't explain it. I've never seen anything like it."

When I questioned his widow, she insisted there was nothing suspicious, but then became flustered and said, "They told him not to talk."

Harold Russell was with Warren Reynolds when the Tippit shooting took place. Both men saw the Tippit killer escape. Russel was interviewed in January 1964, and signed a statement that the fleeing man was Oswald.

A few months after the assassination, Russell went back to his home near David, Oklahoma. In July of 1965, Russell went to a party with a female friend. He seemingly went out of his mind at the party and started telling everyone he was going to be killed. He begged friends to hide him. Someone called the police. When the policemen arrived, one of them hit Russell on the head with his pistol. Russell was then taken to a hospital where he was pronounced dead a few hours later: cause of death was listed as "heart failure."

Among others who died strangely were James Worrell, who died in a motorcycle accident on November 9, 1966. He saw a strange man run from the back door of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination.

Gary Underhill was shot. This death was ruled suicide on May 8, 1964. Underhill was a former CIA agent and claimed he knew who was responsible for killing President Kennedy.

Delilah Walle was a worker at Ruby's club. She was married only 24 days when her new husband shot her. She had been working on a book of what she supposedly knew about the assassination.

William "Bill" Waters died May 20, 1967. Police said he died of a drug overdose (demerol). No autopsy was performed. His mother said Oswald and Killam came to her home before the assassination and her son tried to talk Oswald and Killam out of being involved. Waters called FBI agents after the assassination. The FBI told him he knew too much and to keep his mouth shut. He was arrested and kept in Memphis in a county jail for eight months on a misdemeanor charge.

Albert Guy Bogard, an automobile salesman who worked for Downtown Lincoln Mercury, showed a new Mercury to a man using the name "Lee Oswald."

Shortly after Bogard gave his testimony to a Commission attorney in Dallas, he was badly beaten and had to be hospitalized. Upon his release, he was fearful for his safety. Bogard was from Hallsville, La. He was found dead in his car at the Hallsville Cemetery on St. Valentine's day in 1966. A rubber hose was attached to the exhaust and the other end extending into the car. The ruling was suicide. He was just 41 years old.

Jack Ruby died of cancer. He was taken into the hospital with Pneumonia. Twenty eight days later, he was dead from cancer.

David Ferrie of New Orleans, before he could be brought to trial for his involvement in the Kennedy assassination, died of brain hemorrhage. Just what caused his brain hemorrhage has not been established. Ferrie was to testify in the famous Jim Garrison trial, but death prevented him.

Dr. Mary Stults Sherman, age 51, was found stabbed and burned in her apartment in New Orleans. Dr. Sherman had been working on a cancer experiment with Ferrie.

Another Ferrie associate, Eladio Cerefine de Valle, 43, died on the same day as Ferrie. His skull was split open; he was then shot. DeValle had used Ferrie as a pilot. DeValle had been identifying some men in a photo taken in New Orleans for Jim Garrison. One of the men in the photo was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Paul Dyer, of the New Orleans Police force died of cancer. He was the first police officer to interview Ferrie. Martin got sick on the job and died a month later of cancer. He had just interviewed David Ferrie.

News reporters were not exempt either. Two lady reporters died strangely. Lisa Howard supposedly committed suicide. She knew a great deal about the "understanding" which was in the making after the Bay of Pigs, between President Kennedy and the Cubans.

Marguerite Higgins bluntly accused the American authorities of the November 2nd, 1963 killing of Premier Diem and his brother Nhu. A few months after her accusation, she died in a landmine explosion in Vietnam.

On Saturday November 23, 1963, Jack Zangetty, the manager of a $150,000 modular motel complex near Lake Lugert, Oklahoma, remarked to some friends that "Three other men--not Oswald--killed the President." He also stated that "A man named Ruby will kill Oswald tomorrow and in a few days a member of the Frank Sinatra family will be kidnapped just to take some of the attention away from the assassination."

Two weeks later, Jack Zangetty was found floating in Lake Lugert with bullet holes in his chest. It appeared to witnesses he had been in the water one to two weeks.

Lou Staples, a radio announcer who was doing a good many of his radio shows on the Kennedy assassination, lost his life sometime on Friday night May 13, 1977. This was near Yukon, Oklahoma. He had been having radio shows on the assassination since 1973 and the response to his programs was overwhelming.

Lou's death was termed suicide, but the bullet ending his life entered behind his right temple and Lou was left handed. He joined Gary Underhill, William Pitzer and Joe Cooper whose "suicides" were all done with the "wrong hand" shots to the head.

Lou had been stating that he wanted to purchase some property to build a home. He was lured out to a wheat field and his life ended there. I have been to the spot where Lou died.

Karyn Kupcinet, daughter of Irv Kupcinet, was trying to make a long distance call from Los Angeles. According to reports, the operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the phone that President Kennedy was going to be killed.

Two days after the assassination, she was found murdered in her apartment. The case is unsolved. She was 23.

Rose Cherami, 40, was an employee of Jack Ruby's club. She was riding with two men on a return trip from Florida carrying a load of narcotics. She was thrown from the car when an argument began between her and one of the men. She was hospitalized for injuries and drug withdrawal. She told authorities that President Kennedy was going to be killed in Dallas. After her release from the hospital, she was a victim of a hit and run accident on September 4, 1965 near Big Sandy, Texas.

Robert L. Perrin was a gun runner for Jack Ruby. His wife, Nancy testified before the Warren Commission that Robert took a dose of arsenic in August 1962.

Guy Bannister was a private detective who was closely involved in the Jim Garrison trial. Guy and his partner, Hugh Ward, died within a 10 day period as the Warren Commission was closing its hearings. Guy supposedly died of a heart attack, but witnesses said he had a bullet hole in his body.

George deMohrenschildt was another man who was to give testimony but never made it. DeMohrenschildt, in his final days, became suspicious of everyone around him, even his wife, and was nearing a nervous breakdown some thought.

He died of gun shot wounds. The verdict was suicide. But deMohrenschildt was a member of the White Russian society and very wealthy. He visited Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald when they lived on Neely Street. Marina visited the deMohrenschildts when she and Lee Harvey Oswald were having some of their disagreements.

Cliff Carter, LBJ's aide who rode in the Vice President's follow up car in the motorcade in Dealey Plaza where President Kennedy was gunned down, was LBJ's top aide during his first administration. Carter died of mysterious circumstances. Carter died of pneumonia when no penicillin could be located in Washington, D.C. in September 1971. This was supposedly the cause of death.

Buddy Walthers, Deputy Sheriff, was at the kill sight of President Kennedy He picked up a bullet in a hunk of brain matter blown from the President's head. Walthers never produced the bullet for evidence.

Walthers was also at the Texas Theater when Oswald was arrested. In a January 10th, 1969 shooting, Walthers was shot through the heart. In a shootout Walthers and his companion Deputy Alvin Maddox, were fired upon by Cherry, an escaped prisoner. Walthers and Maddox were trying to capture Cherry when Walthers was shot through the heart. Walthers's widow received $10,000.00 for her husband dying in the line of duty.

Clay Shaw, age 60, died five years after he was charged by Jim Garrison for his involvement in the Kennedy assassination. Some reports have it that he had been ill for months after surgery for removing a blood clot. Other newspaper reports of his death stated he had cancer. It was revealed that Shaw was a paid contact for the CIA. A neighbor reported that an ambulance was seen pulling up to the Shaw home. Then a body was carried in and an empty stretcher brought out. A few hours later, Shaw was reportedly found dead in his home. Then he was given a quick embalming before a Coroner could be notified. It was then impossible to determine the cause of death.

On May 15, 1975, Roger Dean Craig died of a massive gun shot wound to the chest. Supposedly, it was his second try at suicide and a success. Craig was a witness to the slaughter of President Kennedy. Only Craig's story was different from the one the police told.

Craig testified in the Jim Garrison trial. Before this, Craig had lost his job with the Dallas Police Dept. In 1961, he had been "Man of the Year." Because he would not change his story of the assassination, he was harassed and threatened, stabbed, shot at, and his wife left him.

Craig wrote two manuscripts of what he witnessed. "When They Kill A President" and "The Patient Is Dying."

Craig's father was out mowing the lawn when Craig supposedly shot himself. Considering the hardships, Craig very well could have committed suicide. But no one will ever know.

John M. Crawford, 46, died in a mysterious plane crash near Huntsville, Texas on April 15, 1969. It appeared from witnesses that Crawford had left in a rush.

Crawford was a homosexual and a close friend of Jack Ruby's. Ruby supposedly carried Crawford's phone number in his pocket at all times. Crawford was also a friend of Buell Wesley Frazier's, the neighbor who took Lee Harvey Oswald to work on that fatal morning of November 22, 1963.

Hale Boggs was the only member of the Warren Commission who disagreed with the conclusions. Hale Boggs did not follow Earl Warren and his disciples. He totally disagreed. Hale Boggs was in a plane crash lost over frozen Alaska.

Nicholas J. Chetta, M.D. age 50, Orleans Parish coroner since 1950, died at Mercy Hospital on May 25, 1968. Newspaper reports were sketchy. It was said he suffered a heart attack.

Dr. Chetta was the coroner who served at the death of David Ferrie.

Dr. Chetta was the key witness regarding Perry Russo against Clay Shaw. Shaw's attorney went into federal court only after Dr. Chetta was dead.

Dr. Martin Luther King was murdered, then his assassin not captured until over a year later. Dr. King was the only hope this country had for bringing about equality.

The death of Robert F. Kennedy, only shortly after Dr. King's death on June 5th, 1968, was a brazen act which gave notice to this entire nation. It became imperative, when Senator Kennedy became a threat as a Presidential candidate, that he had to be killed.

There is evidence that two persons, a man, and a woman were with the accused killer, but authorities have found no trace of them. Coroner, Dr. Thomas Noguchi told the Grand Jury the powder burns indicated the murder gun was fired not more than two to three inches from Kennedy's right ear. Witnesses testified that Sirhan was never closer than four or five feet to the Senator.

I have not, by any means, listed "all" of the strange deaths. I have a complete list in my books. I have listed the most significant ones that occurred after the assassination. The strange deaths after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, in my estimate, numbered over 100, but I am certain I know of only a fraction.

    Many strange deaths occurred after the assassinations of Dr. Martin Luther King, and Senator Robert F. Kennedy. No one knows the exact number.


Penn Jones, Jr. resides in Waxahachie, Texas, publishes a monthly newsletter on the assassination of JFK, Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King and is the author of numerous books on the subject.

Posted by: uvw Mar 9 2005, 01:40 AM

user posted image

This picture seems to show that Oswald was on the 1st floor in the doorway to the SBD building, not the 6th floor, at the time of the shooting. Go to the link for larger and more detialed photos.


Posted by: uggliozzi Jan 24 2006, 09:15 PM
JFK Jr died when the plane he was piloting crashed into the sea near Martha's Vineyard. The time from when his body was recovered until it was cremated was only eleven hours and that included an (unphotographed) autopsy.

Eleven hours until cremation seems to be undue haste to me. There doesn't appear to be any report of a religious service at the cremation - the service was at sea when the ashes were scattered. Cremation is an unusual method within the Roman Catholic Kennedy clan. The others on the aircraft were also cremated and the ashes of all three were cast upon the ocean during the one ceremony.

John, Robert, John Jr - there is something that someone is trying to hide. And I think that something could have been deduced from proper examination of the bodies.

Posted by: Mark Mar 31 2006, 04:21 PM
Connolly Admitted Supporting JFK Coverup
Is Deception The Best Way To Serve One's Country?
By Doug Thompson
Capitol Hill Blue
I had to ask. Did he think Lee Harvey Oswald fired the gun that killed Kennedy?
"Absolutely not," Connolly said. "I do not, for one second, believe the conclusions of the Warren Commission."

The handwritten note lay in the bottom drawer of my old rolltop desk, one I bought for $50 in a junk store in Richmond, VA, 39 years ago.

"Dear Doug & Amy," it read. "Thanks for dinner and for listening." The signature was a bold "John" and the letterhead on the note simply said "John B. Connolly" and was dated July 14, 1982.

I met John Connolly on a TWA flight from Kansas City to Albuquerque earlier that year. The former governor of Texas, the man who took one of the bullets from the assassination that killed President John F. Kenney, was headed to Santa Fe to buy a house.

The meeting wasn't an accident. The flight originated in Washington and I sat in the front row of the coach cabin. During a stop in Kansas City, I saw Connolly get on the plane and settle into a first class seat so I walked off the plane and upgraded to a first class seat right ahead of the governor. I not only wanted to meet the man who was with Kennedy on that day in Dallas in 1963 but, as the communications director for the re-election campaign of Congressman Manuel Lujan of New Mexico, I thought he might be willing to help out on what was a tough campaign.

When the plane was in the air, I introduced myself and said I was working on Lujan's campaign. Connolly's face lit up and he invited me to move to the empty seat next to him.

"How is Manuel? Is there anything I can do to help?"

By the time we landed in Albuquerque, Connolly had agreed to do a fundraiser for Lujan. A month later, he flew back into New Mexico where Amy and I picked him up for the fundraiser. Afterwards, we took him to dinner.

Connolly was both gracious and charming and told us many stories about Texas politics. As the evening wore on and the multiple bourbon and branch waters took their effect, he started talking about November 22, 1963, in Dallas.

"You know I was one of the ones who advised Kennedy to stay away from Texas," Connolly said. "Lyndon (Johnson) was being a real asshole about the whole thing and insisted."

Connolly's mood darkened as he talked about Dallas. When the bullet hit him, he said he felt like he had been kicked in the ribs and couldn't breathe. He spoke kindly of Jackie Kennedy and said he admired both her bravery and composure.

I had to ask. Did he think Lee Harvey Oswald fired the gun that killed Kennedy?

"Absolutely not," Connolly said. "I do not, for one second, believe the conclusions of the Warren Commission."

So why not speak out?

"Because I love this country and we needed closure at the time. I will never speak out publicly about what I believe."

We took him back to catch a late flight to Texas. He shook my hand, kissed Amy on the cheek and walked up the ramp to the plane.

We saw Connolly and his wife a couple of more times when they came to New Mexico but he sold his house a few years later as part of a bankruptcy settlement. He died in 1993 and, I believe, never spoke publicly about how he doubted the findings of the Warren Commission.

Connnolly's note serves as yet another reminder that in our Democratic Republican, or what's left of it, few things are seldom as they seem. Like him, I never accepted the findings of the Warren Commission. Too many illogical conclusions.

John Kennedy's death, and the doubts that surround it to this day, marked the beginning of the end of America's idealism. The cynicism grew with the lies of Vietnam and the senseless deaths of too many thousands of young Americans in a war that never should have been fault. Doubts about the integrity of those we elect as our leaders festers today as this country finds itself embroiled in another senseless war based on too many lies.

John Connolly felt he served his country best by concealing his doubts about the Warren Commission's whitewash but his silence may have contributed to the growing perception that our elected leaders can rewrite history to fit their political agendas.

Had Connolly spoken out, as a high-ranking political figure with doubts about the "official" version of what happened, it might have sent a signal that Americans deserve the truth from their government, even when that truth hurts.

© Copyright 2006 by Capitol Hill Blue

Posted by: Nodstar May 10 2006, 01:29 AM
Hi Pupp ..
thought you might find this interesting ...

Mossad Involvement in JFK Assasination ..

Ten years ago, in 1992, a new suspect was added to the list. Former Rep. Paul Findley (R-Ill.) made the little-noticed but intriguing comment in the March 1992 issue of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs that "it is interesting but not surprising to note that in all the words written about the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Israel’s intelligence agency, the Mossad, has never been mentioned, despite the obvious fact Mossad complicity is as plausible as any of the other theories."

What Findley did not know was at that very time I was in the process of preparing a volume contending that the Mossad role alongside the CIA in the JFK assassination, was, in fact, the big secret—the "missing link"—that explained the entirety of the JFK conspiracy.

The Mossad role is what I have also called "the secret picture on the other side of the jigsaw puzzle" of the JFK assassination conspiracy. My book summarizing this theory is entitled Final Judgment.

What I find quite remarkable is that while many Israelis today believe that Israeli intelligence played a part in the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, many of Israel’s friends in America have reacted quite hysterically to my contention that the Mossad played a role in the assassination of America’s president.

.....Israeli historian Avner Cohen’s new book, Israel and the Bomb, confirms the conflict between JFK and Israel so powerfully that, Israel’s Ha’aretz, declared Cohen’s revelations would "necessitate the rewriting of Israel’s entire history."

In any case, Cohen pointed out, "the transition from Kennedy to [Lyndon] Johnson . . . benefited the Israeli nuclear program."

Ethan Bronner, in the New York Times, called Israel’s drive to build a nuclear bomb "a fiercely hidden subject."

This explains why JFK researchers never considered an Israeli connection until Final Judgment supplied the missing pieces, assembling "the secret picture on the other side of the jigsaw puzzle."

While all of this presents a strong motive for Israel to strike against JFK, Final Judgment also documents what Israeli journalist Barry Chamish says is "a pretty cogent case" for Mossad collaboration with the CIA in the assassination conspiracy.

The fact is that when New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison prosecuted trade executive Clay Shaw with conspiracy in the assassination, Garrison had stumbled upon the Mossad link.....


Ponder and enjoy guys ..

Nodstar* ( The Friendly Alien ) MARVINBlinkNewEmot3.gif

Posted by: Mark Feb 20 2007, 09:21 PM
Hoy Noddy, thanks for your input. There's been a newly released video that shows JFK and Jackie approx 1-2 minutes before the fatal shots.

From all of my years of life experience and research into the subject, I believe Lee Harvey Ozwald was a patsy. We know for a fact that Lee Harvey was murdered by Jack (Ruby) Rubenstein before he could talk.

And there is ample evidence for multiple shooters to ensure that JFK would be dead, and the driver was definitely in on it, but I believe he was not a shooter. It was just sunglare off of the passengers head.

Now, think common sense... you are driving your car, and a gunshot rings out.... now, would you step on the gas, or the brake?

Or would you do nothing and look back to see if your passenger was shot or not?

And then would you wait for half of your passengers head to be blown off with another gunshot before stepping on the gas pedal?

That is exactly what the driver, Greer did.

IMO, the driver was in on it and yes it was a conspiracy.

Here's an email letter from WRH...
READER: The new video that surfaced showing President Kennedy moments before he was shot in Dallas does not prove a thing. For one, even if Kennedy's coat was rumpled up on his back, supposedly from raising his hand to wave to the crowds, a bullet entering Kennedy's back/neck/wherever could not have gone on to inflict wounds on Governor Connolly. Additionally, the "magic bullet" that supposedly did this damage to two men was "recovered" at Parkland Hospital, supposedly off of Connolly's stretcher, but was not deformed hardly at all. Test bullets of this kind when fired into goat carcasses by investigators were badly deformed.

Also, after 44 years the government is still trying to maintain that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, shooting from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, when over 100 witnesses saw gun smoke/flashes/suspicious activities behind the picket fence atop the grassy knoll. I think it is a crying shame that Yahoo would still claim in its stories that Oswald acted alone, when the real facts and evidence in this case clearly exonerate Oswald of this terrible crime.

One of Oswald's coworkers saw him eating lunch at 12:15 in the 2nd floor lunchroom. The motorcade was FIFTEEN MINUTES LATE at this point and should have been in Dealey Plaza. Kennedy had ordered the motorcade stopped twice, once to talk to a group of kids and another time to talk to some nuns. If he was going to shoot Kennedy he would have been on the 6th floor at 12:15, not eating lunch on the second floor.

The government is still protecting the guilty forces that perpetrated this crime, just like it is doing for the 911 conspirators. After Kennedy was shot, the CIA made an attempt to link him to Fidel Castro so that an "excuse" would exist to attack Cuba. This ploy fizzed out amid obvious lies and distortions, but the CIA and its war-pushers still got the Viet Nam war as President Johnson reversed JFK's planned withdrawal of military advisers by the end of 1965. After 911, of course, the government used another "culprit", Osama Bin Laden, to "justify" attacking Middle Eastern Afghanistan and Iraq. So, in a sense, both the Kennedy assassination AND 911 were terrorist acts designed to outrage the American public towards war.

Kennedy's assassination must be kept under wraps by the government/media because there has never been one conviction for this crime(Oswald IS innocent, period!) meaning that the forces and agencies that perpetrated this murder are still in control and want it to remain that way. It is a disgrace that a great web service like Yahoo still trumpets the official line of lies in the JFK assassination!

Posted by: Mark Apr 5 2007, 09:31 PM
Hunt's Deathbed Confession Reveals JFK Killers
The Last Confession Of E. Howard Hunt - US government/CIA team murdered JFK
By Larry Chin
Online Journal Associate Editor
The April 5 issue of Rolling Stone features the deathbed confession of CIA operative and key Bay of Pigs/Watergate/Nixon administration figure E. Howard Hunt, by Erik Hedegaard. This piece is significant not only for its exploration of Hunt, but for breakthrough information that appears to thoroughly corroborate the work of key John F. Kennedy assassination researchers and historians.

Who killed JFK?

According to Hunt's confession, which was taken by his son, St. John ("Saint") Hunt, over the course of many personal and carefully planned father-son meetings, the following individuals were among the key participants:

Lyndon B. Johnson: LBJ, whose own career was assisted by JFK nemesis J. Edgar Hoover (FBI), gave the orders to a CIA-led hit team, and helped guide the Warren Commission/lone gunman cover-up.

Cord Meyer: CIA agent, architect of the Operation Mockingbird disinformation apparatus, and husband of Mary Meyer (who had an affair with JFK).

David Atlee Philips: CIA and Bay of Pigs veteran. Recruited William Harvey (CIA) and Cuban exile militant Antonio Veciana.

William Harvey: CIA and Bay of Pigs veteran. Connected to Mafia figures Santos Trafficante and Sam Giancana.

Antonio Veciana: Cuban exile, founder of CIA-backed Alpha 66.

Frank Sturgis: CIA operative, mercenary, Bay of Pigs veteran, and later Watergate figure.

David Morales: CIA hit man, Bay of Pigs veteran. Morales was also a figure involved with the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy.

Lucien Sarti: Corsican assassin and drug trafficker, possible "French gunman," Grassy Knoll (second) shooter.

Would Hunt continue to tell lies on his deathbed? Perhaps. Would Hunt tell a final tall story or two, to protect himself, or perhaps deal one final slap in the face to the US government (which made him a fall guy for Watergate)? Yes. Would Hunt hide the involvement of certain individuals to whom he remained loyal, including people who are still alive? Certainly. Anything from an operative like Hunt can only be accepted with caution and healthy skepticism.

Nevertheless, Hunt's scenario has the ring of truth.

Each of the named names are well-known CIA and CIA-linked players exposed by many researchers and historians who have detailed the enduring connection from the Bay of Pigs and the Dallas hit to Watergate and Iran-Contra.

The Hunt confession vindicates generations of historians, researchers and whistleblowers who have given their lives and careers to expose the truth about Dealey Plaza. While there are too many to name, they include, but are not limited to (and in no particular order): Jim Garrison, Mark Lane, Fletcher Prouty, Josiah Thompson, Carl Oglesby, Peter Dale Scott, Anthony Summers, Robert Groden, Victor Marchetti, David Lifton, Harrison Livingstone, Michael Canfield, A.J. Weberman, Sylvia Meagher, William Turner, Jim Marrs, Pete Brewton, John Newman, Philip Melanson, Hal Verb, Mae Brussell, Harold Weisberg, Oliver Stone, Mike Ruppert and Dan Hopsicker, Jim diEugenio and Linda Pease.

Meanwhile, the criminal deceptions of the US government and its corporate media, the Warren Commission, and the dirty work of cover-up specialists such as Gerald Posner and Mark Fuhrman, and the legions of JFK assassination revisionist/theorists, deserve a final rebuke, and eternal scorn.

Highlighting Hunt's role

Although the Rolling Stone piece does not address it, the Hunt confession directly corroborates two classic investigations that previously exposed the role of Hunt.

They are Mark Lane's Plausible Denial and Michael Canfield/A.J. Weberman's Coup D'Etat in America. Lane's book details how he took Hunt to court, and won a libel suit, essentially proving that the CIA murdered JFK, and that Hunt lied about his whereabouts. The investigation of Canfield and Weberman identified Hunt and Frank Sturgis as two of the three "tramps" arrested at Dealey Plaza.

Time has only made these investigations more relevant. More than ever, their books, and those of the JFK historians and researchers above listed, deserve to be found, read and studied.

Hunt to Nixon to Bush

The Rolling Stone piece fails to go after the roles of Richard Nixon and George Herbert Walker Bush. But the Hunt confession, if accurate, leads directly to them, to their lifelong associates, and all the way to the present George W. Bush administration.

The Dallas-Watergate-Iran-Contra connection has been thoroughly documented by the key JFK researchers, and in particular, in the work of Peter Dale Scott, one of the very first to show the deep political continuity across three decades. Daniel Hopsicker's Barry and the Boys goes into even more detail on the players.

Consider the career of George H.W. Bush. He was a Texas oilman (Zapata Oil) and a CIA operative, involved with the Bay of Pigs. Bush's name was found in the papers of George DeMohrenschildt, one of Lee Harvey Oswald's CIA handlers.

As documented by Pete Brewton, author of The Mafia, the CIA and George Bush, Bush was deeply connected with a small circle of Texas elites tied to the CIA and the Mafia, as well as the Florida-based CIA/anti-Casto Cuban exile/ Mafia milieu As Richard Nixon's hand-picked Republican National Committee chairman, and later as CIA director, Bush constantly covered-up and stonewalled for his boss about Watergate, which itself (by the admission of Frank Sturgis and others) was a cover-up of the JFK assassination.

Tracking any of the individual CIA operatives involved with the Bay of Pigs, it is impossible to ignore or deny direct connections to George H.W. Bush and his crime family, across the Kennedy assassinations, covert operations in Indochina and, later, Latin America.

Beyond any reasonable doubt, the US government murdered John F. Kennedy. There are people still alive today who were involved directly and indirectly implicated. Some are probably even serving in positions of high influence. Some still have never been identified or touched.

All of these individuals still need to be pursued, exposed, and brought to justice.

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Posted by: Mark Jun 3 2007, 02:44 PM
I assembled these 2 animations from still images of the Zapruder film.

user posted image - 1.1 MB

user posted image - 4.9 MB

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