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> Oldest American Skulls - Japanese?, 13,000 year old skulls from Mexico


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Posted: Dec 29 2006, 05:02 PM
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A tip of the ol' sombrero to Desert Moons over on the Ancient Lost Treasures list for the heads up on this one.

Silvia Gonzalez is back in the news with her "almost" 13,000 year old dates for two dolichocephalic skulls from Mexico found nearly 100 years ago. I don't know how much wiggle room "almost" entails but it certainly trumps Ol' Kenney by at least two millenia. On top of that she says they are not American Indian and by that one assumes she means they are not brachiocephalic like most Northwest Asian skulls. Finally she says she thinks that the skulls represent a group from "probably" Japan and I infer she means ancestral Ainu or Jomon. All of this seems old hat to me, and likely others on this list, but the British are packaging it as brand new. Okay so maybe they're a bit behind the times over there but that stuff has never been publicly admitted on this side of the pond, though there has been a lot of sotto voco rumblings lately out here on the fringe lately.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2538323.stm


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Posted: Dec 29 2006, 06:59 PM
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It was just pointed out to me that the dateline on that article was December 3, 2002 so it's no wonder it seemed stale. Also, another stated that the skulls had been sitting on shelves for nearly a century where coal and oil were burned for fuel making old carbon contamination nearly inevitable.


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Posted: Dec 30 2006, 03:25 AM
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It says the skulls were ---

QUOTE
"dolichocephalic" - that is, long and narrow-headed.


Here's the full article...

QUOTE
Human skulls are 'oldest Americans'
3 December, 2002
QUOTE
user posted image
The skull is said to be 13,000 years old

Tests on skulls found in Mexico suggest they are almost 13,000 years old - and shed fresh light on how humans colonised the Americas.
The human skulls are the oldest tested so far from the continent, and their shape is set to inflame further a controversy over native American burial rights.

The skulls were analysed by a scientist from John Moores University in Liverpool, UK, with help from teams in Oxford and Mexico itself.

They came from a collection of 27 skeletons of early humans kept at the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City.

These were originally discovered more than 100 years ago in the area surrounding the city.

'Amazing' find

The latest radiocarbon dating techniques allow dating to be carried out on tiny quantities of bone, although the process is expensive.

Dr Silvia Gonzalez, who dated the skulls, said: "The museum knew that the remains were of significant historical value but they hadn't been scientifically dated.

user posted image
Dr Silvia Gonzalez dated the skull

"I decided to analyse small bone samples from five skeletons using the latest carbon-dating techniques," she told BBC News Online.

"I think everybody was amazed at how old they were."

The earliest human remains tested prior to this had been dated at approximately 12,000 years ago.

Domestic tools dated at 14,500 years have been found in Chile - but with no associated human remains.

The latest dating is not only confirmation that humans were present in the Americas much earlier than 12,000 years ago, but also that they were not related to early native Americans.

Asian travellers

The two oldest skulls were "dolichocephalic" - that is, long and narrow-headed.

Other, more recent skulls were a different shape - short and broad, like those from native American remains.

This suggests that humans dispersed within Mexico in two distinct waves, and that a race of long and narrow-headed humans may have lived in North America prior to the American Indians.

Traditionally, American Indians were thought to have been the first to arrive on the continent, crossing from Asia on a land bridge.

Dr Gonzalez told BBC News Online: "We believe that the older race may have come from what is now Japan, via the Pacific islands and perhaps the California coast.

"Mexico appears to have been a crossroads for people spreading across the Americas.

"Our next project is to examine remains found in the Baha peninsula of California, and look at their DNA to see if they are related.

"But this discovery, although it is very significant, raises more questions than it solves."

Legal challenge

Scientific analysis of early skull finds in the US has often been halted by native American custom which assumes that any ancient remains involve their ancestors and must be handed over.

However, this evidence that another race may have pre-dated native Americans could strengthen legal challenges from researchers to force access to such remains.

Dr Gonzalez said: "My research could have implications for the ancient burial rights of North American Indians."

Dr Gonzalez has now been awarded a grant from the Mexican government and the UK's Natural Environment Research Council to continue her work for three years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2538323.stm




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"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
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Posted: Jan 9 2007, 11:00 AM
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Hey TA!

What do you think about this archaeologist and the Topper Site?



Archaeologist's find could shake up science

HEATHER URQUIDES
Published January 7, 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archaeologist Albert Goodyear is working on the find of his life.

Based on radiocarbon tests and artifacts he's found along the Savannah River in South Carolina, Goodyear believes that humans existed in North America as many as 50,000 years ago, shattering the long-held notion that the earliest settlers arrived here about 13,000 years ago in Alaska via a lost land bridge.

Not everyone is convinced, but Goodyear believes further excavation and testing at the South Carolina location, known as the Topper site, will confirm his findings.

He's taking a break next week to come to St. Petersburg for a talk at the Science Center about Florida's first inhabitants. It's a coming home for him. After all, it was here that his interest in all things old first began.

You're from St. Petersburg?

I was born in St. Petersburg. I went to Boca Ciega High School, graduated in 1964.

What drew to you archeology?

I think it was in second grade, at Mount Vernon Elementary, we had a unit on Florida heritage. You study the state tree and the bird and all that, and we studied the Seminole Indians. I was really captivated. I thought, 'Hmm, that's the way to live.' I think that sort of predisposed me. When I was 8, my grandmother pulled out an old family trunk with an Indian arrowhead. That really fired up my imagination.

Your work at the Topper site in South Carolina showed that humans existed in North America far earlier than previously thought. Why does that matter?

People, just regular people, are extremely interested. ... I think it taps into a deep curiosity that humans have about their origins. I don't care whether you're in France or South Africa or South Carolina.

Do you think the Topper site will be your greatest discovery or is that yet to come?

I hope it is. Not just for our site, but for the sake of the program. The profession is slowly moving along to accept that there really were people here before the Clovis (roughly 13,000 years ago). The Topper site is unique ... it looks to me like it's the oldest radiocarbon site in North America. That's a huge statement. We're still working on it. Just to have literally found a site of that antiquity, the implications are just enormous. It does say, if it's that old, that people were getting into the United States the same time they were getting into Australia. That's part of that very old migration story. Literally, if it all works out, and I'm convinced that it will, obviously it will be the find of my lifetime.

What's it like to now be the one that people come to listen to?

It comes with the notoriety of the Topper site. ... People are curious about it and want to know what it is, and is it true? I try to cover that when I give these presentations. For me it's fun. It's pretty gratifying because I've always liked working with the public - especially amateur archeologists, since I started out as one.

Heather Urquides can be reached at hurquides@sptimes.com or 892-2253.

If you go

What: Albert Goodyear talks about "Florida's First Peoples"

When: 1 p.m. Saturday

Where: Science Center, 7701 22nd Ave. N

Details: Tickets are $6. For more information, go to www. sciencecenterofpinellas.com or call 384-0027.

http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/articles/...t_s_find_-shtml


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Posted: Jan 9 2007, 11:27 AM
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Al Goodyear obviously has staying power. I've been following the Topper site for a couple of years at least. Although his Clovis artifacts are not contested, the PreClovis artifacts are facing stiff resistance even by PreClovis sympathizers such as Mike Collins of Texas. I wrote Collins asking what his objections to the burins and flaked edge tools in the PreClovis component of Topper were. He responded that although the carbon dates from the site were in fact at the limits of carbon dating, the tools themselves were like starch fractures and other geofacts he had seen at numerous sites here in Texas. In his latest releases, Goodyear seems to provide good responses to such criticisms but it gets into the finer points of lithic analysis which are beyond me. Collins defended Goodyear's technique against critics who claimed that his stratigraphy and trench profiles were sloppy resulting in dubious interpretation, saying Goodyear had been impeccable in his field methods. I'm inclined to accept Goodyear's 50,000 year dates as there are others of comparable age in New Mexico and Oklahoma. Additionally, I and a couple of others I know have found artifacts identical to Goodyear's here in Texas. The 50,000 year dates is just the first step in gaining acceptance of a progressive revelation which will eventually encompass sites two to five times older.


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Posted: Feb 15 2007, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Tex Arcana @ Jan 9 2007, 02:27 PM)
Additionally, I and a couple of others I know have found artifacts identical to Goodyear's here in Texas.

TA! Where in Texas did you find these artifacts?


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Posted: Feb 16 2007, 05:17 AM
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I found them here on Caney Creek in Fannin County. The others were found by a member of my forum a few miles northwest of Austin.


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Posted: Feb 23 2007, 08:38 AM
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QUOTE (Tex Arcana @ Feb 16 2007, 08:17 AM)
I found them here on Caney Creek in Fannin County. The others were found by a member of my forum a few miles northwest of Austin.

Growing up near the Red River, I've always wondered what could be found there. There's a lot of Native American history along that muddy river. I'm sure explorers have already scoured the banks, but as much as that river changes course, I'm sure there are always new areas to explore.


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Posted: Feb 23 2007, 01:22 PM
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They haven't even scratched the surface along the Red River, Junkman. Most of the archaeology has been focused on the Caddo moundbuilders. The recent digs north of Paris have pushed back interest to the Fourche Maline, an Archaic group ancestral to the Caddo from about 800BC to 400AD but that's because they found the oldest house in North America there. They pretty much have ignored the older stuff like Folsom, Clovis and Midland of which there are numerous artifacts found all along the Red and the Sulphur. Even the pros admit that very little is known of the Archaic (6000-1000BC) although the artifacts are everywhere you look up here. The really old stuff like I'm finding here has been all but ignored. Most of it is buried quite deep beneath many layers of flood deposits. Besides myself I don't know of anybody that is even looking up here; there just isn't any funding for it. There's a bill pending to turn over the state parks from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department to the Texas Historical Commission for archaeological preservation but both departments are broke thanks to a certain phoney Texan who looted the treasury before he went nationwide.


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