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> Scientists Find Prehistoric Dwarf Skeleton, "We have to rethink what it is"


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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 07:42 PM
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Hi DanBones,

Thanks for the info on the dog Dna research, it reminded me of an article regarding cheetah genes by Lloyd Pye

Here's the article;et-int

exerpt;

THE EMERGENCE OF DOMESTICATED ANIMALS
As with plants, animal domestication followed a pattern of development that extended 10,000 to 5,000 years ago. It also started in the Fertile Crescent, with the "big four" of cattle, sheep, goats and pigs, among other animals. Later, in the Far East, came ducks, chickens and water buffalo, among others. Later still, in the New World, came llamas and vicuna. This process was not simplified by expanding the number of chromosomes. All animals--wild and domesticated--are diploid, which means they have two sets of chromosomes, one from each parent. The number of chromosomes varies as widely as in plants (humans have 46), but there are always only two sets (humans have 23 in each).

The only "tools" available to Neolithic herdsmen were those available to farming kinsmen: time and patience. By the same crossbreeding techniques apparently utilised by farmers, wild animals were selectively bred for generation after generation until enough gradual modifications accumulated to create domesticated versions of wild ancestors. As with plants, this process required anywhere from hundreds to thousands of years in each case, and was also accomplished dozens of times in widely separated areas around the globe.

Once again, we face the problem of trying to imagine those first herdsmen with enough vision to imagine a "final model", to start the breeding process during their own lifetimes and to have it carried out over centuries until the final model was achieved. This was much trickier than simply figuring out which animals had a strong pack or herding instinct that would eventually allow humans to take over as "leaders" of the herd or pack. For example, it took unbridled courage to decide to bring a wolf cub into a campsite with the intention of teaching it to kill and eat selectively and to earn its keep by barking at intruders (adult wolves rarely bark). And who could look at the massive, fearsome, ill-tempered aurochs and visualise a much smaller, much more amiable cow? Even if somebody could have visualised it, how could they have hoped to accomplish it? An aurochs calf (or a wolf cub, for that matter), carefully and lovingly raised by human "parents", would still grow up to be a full-bodied adult with hardwired adult instincts.

However it was done, it wasn't by crossbreeding. Entire suites of genes must be modified to change the physical characteristics of animals. (In an interesting counterpoint to wild and domesticated plants, domesticated animals are usually smaller than their wild progenitors.) But with animals, something more ineffable must be changed to alter their basic natures from wild to docile. To accomplish it remains beyond modern abilities, so attributing such capacity to Neolithic humans is an insult to our intelligence.

All examples of plant and animal "domestication" are incredible in their own right, but perhaps the most incredible is the cheetah. There is no question it was one of the first tamed animals, with a history stretching back to early Egypt, India and China. As with all such examples, it could only have been created through selective breeding by Neolithic hunters, gatherers or early farmers. One of those three must get the credit.

The cheetah is the most easily tamed and trained of all the big cats. No reports are on record of a cheetah killing a human. It seems specifically created for high speeds, with an aerodynamically designed head and body. Its skeleton is lighter than other big cats; its legs are long and slim, like the legs of a greyhound. Its heart, lungs, kidneys and nasal passages are enlarged, allowing its breathing rate to jump from 60 per minute at rest to 150 bpm during a chase. Its top speed is 70 miles per hour, while a thoroughbred tops out at around 38 mph. Nothing on a savanna can outrun it. It can be outlasted, but not outrun.

Cheetahs are unique because they combine physical traits of two distinctly different animal families: dogs and cats. They belong to the family of cats, but they look like long-legged dogs. They sit and hunt like dogs. They can only partially retract their claws, like dogs instead of cats. Their paw pads are thick and hard like a dog's, but to climb trees they use the first claw on their front paws in the same way a cat does. The light-coloured fur on their body is like the fur of a short-haired dog, but the black spots on their bodies are inexplicably the texture of cat's fur. They contract diseases that only dogs suffer from, but they also get "cat only" diseases.

There is something even more inexplicable about cheetahs. Genetic tests have been done on them, and the surprising result was that in the 50 specimens tested they were all, every one, genetically identical with each other! This means the skin or internal organs of any of the thousands of cheetahs in the world could be switched with the organs of any other cheetah and not be rejected. The only other place such physical homogeneity is seen is in rats and other animals that have been genetically altered in laboratories.

(Cue the music from The Twilight Zone)

Cheetahs stand apart, of course, but all domesticated animals have traits that are not explainable in terms that stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny. Rather than deal with the embarrassment of confronting such issues, scientists studiously ignore them and, as with the mysteries of domesticated plants, explain them away as best they can. For the cheetah, they insist it simply cannot be some kind of weird genetic hybrid between cats and dogs, even though the evidence points squarely in that direction. And why? Because that, too, would move cheetahs into the forbidden zone occupied by You Know What.

The problem of the cheetahs' genetic uniformity is explained by something now known as the "bottleneck effect". What it presumes is that the wild cheetah population--which must have been as genetically diverse as its long history indicates--at some recent point in time went into a very steep population decline that left only a few breeding pairs alive. From that decimation until now, they have all shared the same restricted gene pool.

Unfortunately, there is no record of any extinction events that would selectively remove cheetahs and leave every other big cat to develop its expected genetic variation. So, as unlikely as it seems, the "bottleneck" theory is accepted as another scientific gospel.

Here it is appropriate to remind scientists of Carl Sagan's famous riposte when dealing with their reviled pseudoscience: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." It seems apparent that Sagan learned that process in-house.

Thanks to Duncan at Nexus

Peace

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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 08:55 PM
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Thanks Ganesh!

When I sent Jeff Rense the Strange Skull Collage, he requested I email the collage and the horned skull image to Lloyd Pye.

Why he didn't simply fwd my email and the images himself... I wondered, but now I think I know why.

He managed to generate a conflict between 2 people who basically believe the same thing.

I had heard of Lloyd, but couldn't recall from where.

In our email exchange, he claimed the horned skull wasn't real.

After several email exchanges I was extremely frustrated.

He actually sent me some Halloween horned skull image and tried to insinuate it was of the same quality as the horned human skull.

I finally sent an email to Jeff and said I'd rather pound 16 penny nails into my scrotum than deal with this guy.

Jeff Rense was so kind and actually forwarded my emails I sent to him on to Lloyd.

I wish I had known more about Lloyd before corresponding.

Jeff Rense... what a guy!

I did email him back and apologized - he said "Fair enough"
face.gif

Sorry Lloyd!

QUOTE
About the Author:
Lloyd Pye, born in 1946 in Louisiana, USA, is a researcher, author, novelist and scriptwriter. His independent studies over more than three decades into all aspects of evolution have convinced him that humans did not evolve on Earth, or at least are the product of extraterrestrial intervention. His book, Everything You Know Is Wrong - Book One: Human Origins, is available by ordering through http://www.iUniverse.com or Barnes & Noble at http://www.bn.com. Visit Lloyd Pye's website at http://www.lloydpye.com.


I came to that same conclusion.

He is right.

Humans did not evolve on Earth.

We are genetic creations.

And pale skinned folks are the newest arrivals to Earths surface.



Much more good reading at the link.

I'll make a new thread for the entire page.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/etcreation.html




--------------------
QUOTE
"Ye shall know them by their fruits"
~ Matthew 7:16

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
~ Buddha
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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 09:54 PM
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QUOTE
These types never deal with the fact the DNA evidence shows dogs were bred from wolves 90,000 years or more a go, AND spread around the world.
Who did that I wonder.


A lot of those types are still saying that ancient cultures thousands of miles apart with identical technologies developed those identical technologies independently. rolleyesNEW.gif A lot of things besides dogs were spread around the world. Tools such as bows and arrows, spears, pottery and knives were used by many of ancient cultures throughout the world and these experts claim that each of these cultures were isolated and in no way could have had contact with any other culture and that each of them had invented the same identical tools independently. whistlingNEW2.gif

I'd say that dogs, cats and other and other animals were domesticated and bred a lot further back than 90,000 years ago.

QUOTE
For the cheetah, they insist it simply cannot be some kind of weird genetic hybrid between cats and dogs, even though the evidence points squarely in that direction. And why? Because that, too, would move cheetahs into the forbidden zone occupied by You Know What.


If there cannot be some kind of genetic hybrid then how do they explain the platypus? Those things are the only egg-laying mammals in the entire world. They are also said to be more lizard-like than mammal because of their lower body temperature and the fact that their legs extend out like a lizard instead of vertically below them like other mammals. They have a passing simmilarity to the genetic structure of modern birds and have 10 pairs of sex determining chromosomes instead of two. They also make growling noises when disturbed and the males have a spur on the inner side of each hind limb that is connected to a poison gland which makes them a very unique species and one that I do consider to be a really weird genetic hybrid and not a product of natural evolution. chinscratch.gif


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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE
(Cue the music from The Twilight Zone)


This is funny but this is the second time within the last few hours that you replied on the same thread that I just happened to be responding to PuPP. rolleyesNEW.gif


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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 10:26 PM
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Hey Seralia, I'm stalking you!

hehehe

I try and make the rounds and actually hold back on responding.

Ya know I talk waaaaay too much!




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QUOTE
"Ye shall know them by their fruits"
~ Matthew 7:16

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
~ Buddha
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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 10:55 PM
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Hi Seralia,

Thanks for the reply, just had to mention tho', that the Platypus isn't the
only egg - laying mammal. There's also the Echidna (Spiny Anteater),
which is the other member of this unique category called 'monotremes'
(both native to Australia)

It interesting that you brought up these critters in relation to genetic experimentation.
Being the only two examples of this type of animal, it's strange that
they're so completely different. ( One is a duck billed, egg laying otter
type thing, and the other is a waddling, ant-eating hedgehog type)

Hi PuPP,

I don't know much about Lloyd Pye apart from that article,
which seemed quite feasable to me, although I suspect the domestication
of plants & animals may have happened much earlier, going by recent
evidence in Forbidden Archeology.

Peace




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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:03 PM
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lol2.gif backtotopic.gif

Believe it or not, I actually have an update on our little Hobbits. whistlingNEW2.gif

Not only are they only little men with small brains but all the bones except for two have been returned. clapping.gif

QUOTE
'Hobbit' just a little man with small brain

By Deborah Smith, Science Editor
February 19, 2005

A scientist under fire for examining the so-called hobbit bones says the priceless remains will be returned to the Australian and Indonesian team that discovered them on Monday.

In a development that could spark another international scientific furore, Maciej Henneberg , of the Department of Anatomical Sciences at the University of Adelaide, also said about two grams of bone fragments from the tiny humans had been sent from Indonesia to the Max Planck Institute in Germany for DNA analysis.

Professor Henneberg dismissed criticism from Australian scientists that he should not have studied the remains while they were in the disputed possession of an Indonesian scientist, Teuku Jacob.

He said his 3-day examination of the skull and bones of the most complete specimen of Homo floresiensis had confirmed his opinion that it was not a "hobbit", but a modern human with a brain-shrinking deformity called microcephaly. "There is absolutely no doubt this person had a growth disorder."

Iain Davidson, professor of archaeology and palaeoanthropology at the University of New England, told the Herald on Thursday that he was extremely concerned Professor Henneberg and Alan Thorne, of the Australian National University, had examined the bones after Professor Jacob seized them.

"No scientist should have any truck with stolen remains," Professor Davidson said.

Professor Mike Morwood, of the University of New England, the leader of the team that found the remains of seven "hobbits" on the Indonesian island of Flores in 2003 and 2004, and Professor Peter Brown, also of the University of New England, who described the new species of humans, are also furious about the actions of the two Australian researchers.

The bones were taken last December before they had been studied by the discovery team and any DNA extracted.

Professor Jacob, of Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta, reneged on an agreement to return them by January 1.

Professor Henneberg and Dr Thorne said they disagreed with Professor Morwood that Professor Jacob's actions had breached a legal agreement between the Australian and Indonesian research institutes.

They said the head of the Indonesian team, Professor Radien Soejono, had had the right to ask Professor Jacob's opinion, and he, in turn, theirs.

"Had Morwood had the sense to realise the national, intellectual and historical importance of Jacob, this whole mess might not have eventuated," Dr Thorne said.
QUOTE
'Hobbit' bone of contention settled

By Stephen Cauchi
Science reporter
February 25, 2005

A bitter academic dispute over the bones of the "hobbits" - the extinct metre-high human species whose sensational discovery was announced last year - has finally been resolved, but not without animosity.

One of Indonesia's leading palaeontologists, Professor Teuku Jacob of Gadjah Mada University, last year seized the remains of the seven hobbit skeletons and locked them in his safe, refusing to let other scientists study them.

He was not in the Australian-Indonesian team that found the bones on the Indonesian island of Flores but was given permission to take them by an Indonesian team member.

He was supposed to return the bones on January 1, but did not. He further angered the Australian team by letting a select group of scientists study the bones - scientists who share his view that the hobbits are not a separate human species but modern humans with a disease that causes shrunken brains.

However, Professor Mike Morwood of the University of New England told The Age that a deputation of Indonesian scientists had finally collected the bones from Professor Jacob in Java.

"All bones, bar two, returned to Pusat Arkeologi staff this morning at Gadjah Mada University, Jogyakarta," Professor Morwood said in an email. "Jacob has kept a femur and a tibia for further study - but they want a specific date for return... they will be kept secured at the Centre for Archaeology in Jakarta."

Professor Jacob last year bitterly criticised the Australian researchers, calling them "latter-day conquistadors". Australian scientists pointed to Professor Jacob's record of hoarding away precious archaeological finds.


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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:07 PM
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Ok, so we have 2 egg laying mammals

Echidna (Spiny Anteater)

and

Platypus

Thanks you guys - man the things you learn on an obscure forum.

hehehe

Simply amazing!

What gets me is who decided to create the flesh eaters that eat the plant eaters?

I don't believe it's all about nature and evolution.

I see someone/thing who had a sense of humor and also someone/thing who liked blood and gore.

Hoy Ganesh,
I added the lil bit of history from my exchanges with Lloyd in my original post thanks to Jeff Rense.

Remember, Rense dangled a carrot under my nose and invited me, an unknown unedcuated nobody, to be on his radio show after I emailed him the Strange Skulls.

Of course, he never even posted the strange skull images on his site.

I guess he can't let that info of the BIG HEADS get out to too many people yet.




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QUOTE
"Ye shall know them by their fruits"
~ Matthew 7:16

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
~ Buddha
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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:09 PM
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Thanks for the update Seralia.

Sorry for going offtopic.gif

face.gif




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"Ye shall know them by their fruits"
~ Matthew 7:16

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
~ Buddha
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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:10 PM
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Hi Ganesh
I'm liking those Cheetas.
I notice our black Cat which has reptile yellow eyes, buries its dumps in a way that's reminicent of the way a reptile buries its eggs.

Seralia...
I think we tend to follow the interesting posters around 'cause, well, thats why we are here, here.
I agree about your sense of timing, but I'm posting the science to offend skeptics with my bluntest object...
( sound of watermellon hitting pavement..HARD)
I like the "hobbits" 'cause the first "visit" I remember involved two little beings.

PuPP...
Lloyd Pye seems to be a dude in the same boat as you. I did hear his interview on Rense and he did get my attention. You two could probably be freinds...
You two have certainly encountered obstacles in common for your theories...

I know how you feel though about Rense.
I got snubbed by his buddy Mr Vike.
While i have co visitees, scars, and other corrobotating evidence, he puts Bubba and Billy Bob from the 60's on the front page...Go figure.
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The Old Man From The Sky says "The chosen are the ones who choose"
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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:11 PM
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Where's that twilight zone music? rolleyesNEW.gif I was laughing at PuPP Ganesh.

QUOTE
It interesting that you brought up these critters in relation to genetic experimentation.
Being the only two examples of this type of animal, it's strange that
they're so completely different. ( One is a duck billed, egg laying otter
type thing, and the other is a waddling, ant-eating hedgehog type)


I almost forgot about the Echidna. Both seem to be total genetic mysteries that even the experts are having trouble explaining. chinscratch.gif



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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:16 PM
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I definitely need that Twilight Zone music. I respond to PuPP and Ganesh sneaks in a post and then I respond to Ganesh and you sneak in a post Dan.

QUOTE
Seralia...
I think we tend to follow the interesting posters around 'cause, well, thats why we are here, here.


We really must be following each other around tonight. lol

EDIT: I just noticed that you made another post too PuPP. rolleyesNEW.gif

Another EDIT: I just noticed that PuPP made two posts. whistlingNEW2.gif


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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:26 PM
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Seralia...
Being a dyslexic, with hotdog finger typing skills, I have to edit each post three or four times, because my iespell ( an excelent free spell check for explorer), can't cope with with my twisted mind (LOL), so quite often the thread moves on while I'm doing that...
cheers2.gif all
great lil thread.


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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:35 PM
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Seralia, honestly I do try and hold back from posting.

Hopefully no one reads the words of the ranting madman straightjacket.gif

I actually deleted Mr. Jackal today. At his request.

See the thread "Veiled threat" in the Welcome Wagon Section.

He kept hounding me here as well as at GLP back in the day and always gave me bad vibes, while you guys all give me good vibes.

I love learning stuff!

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And mung beans




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QUOTE
"Ye shall know them by their fruits"
~ Matthew 7:16

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
~ Buddha
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Posted: Feb 25 2005, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE
What gets me is who decided to create the flesh eaters that eat the plant eaters


Sometimes I wonder the same thing PuPP. We seem to be a mixed up creation that has traits of both plant and meat eaters. We are a mixed up combination of a predatory animal and prey animal with the characteristics and instincts of both. We can exist as individuals or in packs and be either leaders, hunters, or followers or even prey to other animal species. Someone must of had a sense of humor when they designed us. chinscratch.gif



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