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PuPP's Theories Forum > DREAMS, VISIONS and PROPHECIES > Why We Dream


Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 9 2005, 05:18 PM
I'm of the opinion that the key to understanding dreams lies in the mechanics of our reality. If one were to assume the Theory of Evolution to be correct, than dreams evolved as a way for an organism to understand its environment as well as to make more efficient its future reactions. I know I write with a kind of detachment, I tend to think analytically and know no other way to express this, so please bear with me.......

Why do we Dream?

Every organism interpretes its environment through 5 senses, but at any given time dependent on the physical need or focus only one sense is being used, usually sight.....How many times have you closed your eyes to enjoy an aroma? Regardless of how many senses you tend to focus on at any given time, the brain is still percieving the world with all of its senses; the word subliminal essentially means "below conscious perception".

In order for the brain to process all that it has perceived in waking life, it "dreams".As such, dreams are the assimilation of all direct and peripheral perception into long-term memory. This process is conducted so that the organism may understand better and interact more efficiently with its environment by "re-experiencing" recent sensory perception. This re-experiencing is done by "combining" new experience with similar memories; since the overall physical environment rarely changes once it has been lived in, most new dreams center on the emotion and feelings of the organism.

To take this last sentence further, try a quick index of your most recent dreams.......how many of them were "feelings" amidst a social environment? And how many were focused on physical details such as the "knot in a piece of wood" or "words and numbers?" The focus on social activity is a natural default after a person has matured; he/she is already very familiar with his/hers physical reality and the only great unknown(for the most part) is other people and how they think/feel in corrolation.


For the sake of arguement, we'll use anxiety as a reference since all of our actions are affected by the intensity of it. .....all of those motivational speakers earn their money by instilling confidence. The more confidence you have means less anxiety. Anxiety comes in a myriad of forms(guilt, shame, fear, instilled responsibility conflicting desire, and others). Remembering your dreams allows you to consciously reflect on how your subconscious reacts to your continuing life. From there it is almost just a matter of deciding how/if you want to change it. This type of reflection is self-evident with how well you interact with others and the activity you involve yourself in.....knowing how and why you react allots you the option to change how you act.....since dreams are the summation of all ingested information by which our behaviour is based upon, it would stand that understanding our behaviour would help us to more efficiently interact.....essentially what you stand to learn from increased awareness of your dreams is a better understanding of 1)yourself 2)how you react to the world. 3)How the world reacts to you 4)Specific details about anything(conscious control, or lucid.

As to the seeing of the future via dreams, the brain is an incredibly sensitive and calculating organ. I would imagine that precognition could be explained by intuition, anticipation w/ regard to pattern recognition, and individual interest/focus and the intensity thereof.........


Of course learning is not meant in a way to exclude fun as this aspect of dreaming(having fun) is where most of the theraputic value lies - also, I have never heard of anyone not enjoy "learning" how to lucid dream. I am trying to express that interacting with your environment is a constant learning experience and dreams are there to continue adding into your memory the encountered reality. Learning begins, obviously, at infancy and these memories are what establishes the type of reactions, in part, that particular human will have. Later in life when the physical world has been learned, most of the new "information" will be in the form of social experience.....


I submit that the division of the mind into "conscious" and "unconscious" is done merely for convenience in explaining the functions of our mind. I would think it more accurate to describe our mental state as a constantly flucuating consciousness and if that were so than of course an emotional shock would undoubtedly dominate it. An emotional shock is usually the povacateur of recurring dreams. An attempt to understand how deeper levels of consciousness express the shock, such as dreaming, could lead to a "conscious" assuaging of the trauma. Maybe I'm trying to implicate dreams in concert with conscious thought.....



The brain, in using symbols in dreams, has demonstrated that it is very efficient and as such wouldn't use old memories that have been "updated" by more recent experience that incorporate the same subject matter. This thought I could expand on further, I think, as it relates more to memory with relation to behaviour, but I do think that in a dream state you have access to all of your memories.....If you experienced it, then it must have a biological representation in the brain - that's why neural networks grow in response to experience. If you take a look at the biological development of neurons(dendrites, axons, etc.) and their responses to neurotransmitters, memory is more vivid the more "similar experiences" you have. Hence, "Practice makes perfect." The more you encounter a specific experience/situation/environment/relationship/etc., the stronger those particular regions of neurons become........


I'm still refining etc., so please feel free to call me on anything, I'm sure their are holes somewhere. However, I believe this to be an accurate description of the reasons for dreams and the use in our lives. Because dreams have evolved in response to our learning process, it would stand to reason that dreams exist for us to learn from. The best way to do that, IMO, is to start with the mundane details, such as "why did I react that way when this subject came up," or, "Why did I feel this way when I am usually quite comfortable with my life." It's all ways the details that lead to more provocative questions and, subsequently, more provocative reasons.

This is why I think it a sham that dreams are usually religated to the mystical or new age section..........they're as natural as two arms and two legs!!! I believe the unlimited capacity for learning and memory allotted by our dreams and the relative disregard people in general give them is no accident.........a conspiracy to ensure that the full learning and operating potential of the brain is never realized. Life in America is motivated by distraction after distraction and the constant barrage on our "animal instincts." This of course leaves no time for self-reflection, for the healthy cultivation of the "why" aspect of our nature.......



pyramideye2.gif



I believe the third eye is actually our capacity to imagine, and dreams are a nightly process of imagination. smileyP.gif


Posted by: Without Fear Feb 9 2005, 07:30 PM
Hi SubVolitional,

Appreciate your thoughts. I have long wondered about dreaming, and after many years of life, am still puzzled by the process.

Here are some of my experiences, as more ‘grist for the mill’

Years ago, I read ‘an experiment with time’ by JW Dunne. He theorized that time was only perceived linearly in our waking reality, and that in our sleep state, time was ever present. This meant that during dreaming ‘we’ (whatever you want to take that to mean) can ‘travel’ backward and forward in time, and also through a multitude of ‘optional’ timelines.

Our recollection of dreams in our waking reality, therefore come from a distorted fusion of these experiences. (Or maybe they are only distorted by our five sense filters?)

Anyway, I have experienced several examples of dreams that were a clearly a bizarre fusion of both past events and events that did not occur until sometime later. In many cases, I also had with the memory of the dream a very strong emotion about a particular, apparently insignificant, feature of the dream that would puzzle me until the future event occurred. At that time the emotional anomaly would become clear and resolve itself.

I also had those dreams that merely triggered the feeling of Déjà vu.

One of the exercises that Dunne suggested was to keep paper and pen handy, and try to write or draw details on waking, at whatever time. He noted that after about 15 minutes most dreams are lost from memory.

He also cautioned that it would not be possible to do this continuously since the activity begins to cause irritability, confusion, and tiredness. It seems as though dreams were not intended to be recalled by the conscious waking mind, and my experience was that it became increasing hard to recall dream experiences, and it began to feel as if I had not slept.

My conclusion was that dreaming is a natural state that is also meant to be forgotten. I just haven't fully fathomed its purpose. Perhaps more will get added to this thread to further our knowledge.

Thanks for starting this – like so many things recently in my life, the synchronicity is perfect!

I haven’t read his book for years, so perhaps its time for a refresher!

WF



Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 9 2005, 09:25 PM
QUOTE
Years ago, I read ‘an experiment with time’ by JW Dunne. He theorized that time was only perceived linearly in our waking reality, and that in our sleep state, time was ever present. This meant that during dreaming ‘we’ (whatever you want to take that to mean) can ‘travel’ backward and forward in time, and also through a multitude of ‘optional’ timelines.


Consider this.........in your waking life can you travel back and forth in time, or choose an optional timeline? That said, my take is that the best way to interprete Dunne is to look at it from a different angle. When I dream I can travel back in time...........in the sense that I can remember past experience with more intensity than waking life. Also, when lucidity is achieved, I can mix and match the memories with my imagination and vice versa. As for traveling into the future, I can anticipate and logically discern many things. There are instances I have heard about that were of a prophetic nature.....but most can be accounted for with a logical look at the trend in someones life. So I suppose that, sure, you can define it as Dunne chose to, but the focus shouldn't be on the timeline.....it should be on you and how you percieve/react. After all, you are the star of your own life.

QUOTE
Our recollection of dreams in our waking reality, therefore come from a distorted fusion of these experiences. (Or maybe they are only distorted by our five sense filters?)


With practice comes a very detailed recollection. Distortion is caused by you, therefore, you can clear your perception.

QUOTE
Anyway, I have experienced several examples of dreams that were a clearly a bizarre fusion of both past events and events that did not occur until sometime later.


IMO, you will encounter scenarios that will incorporate your memories(past) with your concerns(potential future; the potential is based on your subsequent behaviour and actions. I'll stop here because to go any further would require an in-depth look at your moral/ethics, religious, political, and possibly even familial background. Many decisions everybody makes is based in part in these situations). Suffice to say for now that you should encounter corrolations with past and future; one leads to the next.


QUOTE
In many cases, I also had with the memory of the dream a very strong emotion about a particular, apparently insignificant, feature of the dream that would puzzle me until the future event occurred. At that time the emotional anomaly would become clear and resolve itself.


One of the most important aspects of dreaming, IMO, is the emotional impact it has. This is anindicator of your feelings towards a situation. If you understand this then you can effect control over yourself........a skill many people, IMO, do not understand.


QUOTE
One of the exercises that Dunne suggested was to keep paper and pen handy, and try to write or draw details on waking, at whatever time. He noted that after about 15 minutes most dreams are lost from memory.


Very good advice........probably the best way to learn dream recall. However his note regarding the 15 minutes.......... he is mistaken. A) He did not, I am sure, conduct a thorough study. B) I recall most dreams at various points........walking down the street, etc. He may be referring to the "amateur dream recaller." It gets better with practice.


QUOTE
He also cautioned that it would not be possible to do this continuously since the activity begins to cause irritability, confusion, and tiredness. It seems as though dreams were not intended to be recalled by the conscious waking mind,


Wrong. Completely false. The more you dream and become involved in your dreaming(at the very least, it's more fun than "waking life"), the more you will understand that in order for Dunne to state such a thing was to either be incompetent or to intentionally mislead you.


QUOTE
and my experience was that it became increasing hard to recall dream experiences, and it began to feel as if I had not slept.


It sounds like you reacted to his words......consider this...........how many times did a flying dream or "fill in the blank that was a cool dream" make you feel irritable or confused. Consider his "philosophies" not his biological assessments.

QUOTE
My conclusion was that dreaming is a natural state that is also meant to be forgotten


I can say that my conclusion is that dreams are meant to be remembered while awake and reality is to be remembered in dreams. A full integration of consciousness is by no means easy(I don't have that) but it is possible. I know of people who can "lucid dream" at will, and like I said, at the very least it is more fun than most waking activities.

QUOTE
I just haven't fully fathomed its purpose. Perhaps more will get added to this thread to further our knowledge.


I have learned many hard lessons in my relatively young age and as a result had to fathom the nature of it. I want this thread to continue for the exact same reason; the only way I can learn more is to discuss it.


QUOTE
I haven’t read his book for years, so perhaps its time for a refresher


Please disregard his negative implications smileNew4.gif

SubVolitional




Posted by: Mark Feb 10 2005, 04:07 AM
Hey Sub Volitional, I see you've started a thread - cool deal.

Thank you for sharing your time and for your analysis.

Much appreciated!

QUOTE
One of the exercises that Dunne suggested was to keep paper and pen handy, and try to write or draw details on waking, at whatever time. He noted that after about 15 minutes most dreams are lost from memory.
I still can recall my dreams from early childhood through my adult life. But some dreams do seem to be easily forgotten.

I also recommend writing down your dreams as soon as you awaken as you get more details that way. And then when you go back and read what you wrote, even more details may arise.

I just had a real strange dream and actually typed it up as soon as I woke up. I'll fix the typos and post it soon for your viewing pleasure/displeasure - heh.

I miss those fun dreams. Lately, they havn't been good ones.

Posted by: Without Fear Feb 10 2005, 03:42 PM
Hi SubVolitional,
Thank you for taking the time to reply, and making me think some more about this.

I recall an experiment undertaken to understand more about the dream process.
One group were wakened whenever dreaming started and the other group were wakened exactly the same number of times, except it was during non dreaming periods. The group who were disturbed during the dreaming state quickly exhibited major sleep deprivation signs. It seemed that uninterrupted dreaming is important.

My understanding is that each person has many dreams in several dream periods of sleep, and that upon waking most if not all of these dreams are lost to our consciousness.

Only the impressive or lucid dreams are readily retained, although some others might be recalled by an event during waking time. Most of my dreams are simply not remembered. Maybe this is just a personal thing. I have a poor memory anyway, so maybe I simply forget more of my dreams than others!

I would be interested in others experiences - can three of more dreams be remembered regularly each night?
scratchinghead.gif

Anyway, that's why I posted that I thought that dreaming is both an essential natural process and not intended for our consciousness.

One other part of the mix is that I am not certain that time is linear, and that it isn’t just a construct for our waking reality. I used the words ‘alternative timelines’ in my post more as a convenience. I think that in dream state there is no time - everything just ‘is’.
It is like a sea of knowledge.

Maybe the difficulties in discerning dreams are because not only are they are personal to the individual, but that we are discerning with the minds 5 sense interpretation. When we reach deeper, we move into the area where we are best manipulated.

I see you have also read the paper by Dick Sutphen on another thread. He illustrates clearly how easy it is to influence the being, and the multitude of methods available.

Perhaps dreaming is another one of these methods, allowing new information to come into our deeper levels and in some cases also reach our consciousness, and these actions cause subtle changes in our behaviours.

So if it is true that we dream many more times that we can remember and dreaming is essential for well-being, perhaps the real purpose of dreams is to gain information to give to our deeper levels, and occasionally this process requires the engagement of the conscious mind resulting in the lucid or memorable dream event?

This would effectively mean that dreaming is part of a mechanism for our regular re-programming.


Again I appreciate the opportunity to discuss, it does force some thinking outside of the box.

WF


Posted by: Mark Feb 10 2005, 08:59 PM
I was very tired today and needed rest and had the most bizarre dream(s) - More than one. They were so damn real, almost nightmarish and it all had people from my past in it. People I no longer speak to as they do not believe in the things that I do, yet they surrounded me for many years until I had my real awakening in 2002.

EX: UFOs don't exist, War is a good thing, we should all be religious etc.

I didn't write about it, but it's still very fresh in my memory. I think I could write entire books on my dreams but if they are not important, why bother.

I will share the recent one I wrote up as soon as I had awoken as there may be some significance to the location as I do not recall having many actual locations in my dreams.

QUOTE
DREAM:
Feb 10, 2005
Mark J. Harper

I'm in the back seat of a small blue pick up truck with (I think my mom) and definitely my half brother.

She is driving, he's sitting next to me in the back. I'm loading bongloads in this big ole tall bong of some cheap green bud (yes I dream in color) and trying to sneak a toke while keeping my head low so the cops on the road don't see me.

I keep telling my brother about Saddam, and how he was no threat to USA, how he had been disarmed. Destroying all of his large missiles and basically being defenseless against the allied invaders.

But my half-brother gets angry with me. His eyes get a real mean look to them, and we start shouting over one another, though my voice doesn't get any louder, it's just a loud whisper. But I continue to tell him the truth and he doesn't seem to see it or refuses to.

He has an answer/rebuttal for everything I say - just like in real life which is why we don't speak anymore - (In real life, the last I spoke to him, over a year ago, he called me a bleeding heart left wing liberal and claimed Saddam was part of 9/11)


We're driving along Devonshire st. and I keep trying to smoke bong loads of that cheap green bud while constantly trying to hide from the black n white cop cars I see on the street. I spill a bunch of pot all over the back seat.

The woman driving seems to want to make it to the corner of Woodman ave and turn right... but she is now going in reverse with the engine full bore. You can hear it winding out.

There's a large truck in the right lane, which is on my left, since we are going in reverse. He's a caucasion man with bright blue eyes and long white/grey hair, but he's driving from the passenger side of the truck, and he's racing us so we cannot pass him. And he's laughing at us.

CUT:

We're still driving down Devonshire st and when we get to the corner of Woodman ave in Arleta near where I lived for 17 years and we see some officers in the street with what looks to be a car accident with a car upside down.

We pull over and get out.

There's a man lying on the ground hanging partially out of the wrecked car and there's this white webbing type material, sort of like spider webbing is on his face, coming out of his mouth and it is spreading, he's dying or being assimililated as I later discover in my dream.

Another cop tries to help, it gets him too... transfers onto his hand and moves to his face.

My mom and brother bail out of there without calling for help. All 4 of the officers that were there got nailed. When we're back in the truck, I said "Why didn't you call for help? Why didn't we help them?"

As we're driving down the road, I finally realize why they didn't help or call for help. They are part of it. And I accuse them of it. I even grab the woman with my left hand on her left side of her hair. She is no longer driving because when we got back into the little pick up truck, she is now in the front passenger seat and my half brother is driving.

I realize in the dream that they didn't help because they are part of the assimilation but I was not afraid.

We are now heading down Van Nuys blvd and we see 2 helicopters over the wash, flood control area, one has markings/numbers on it, C - something - with numbers (175? I think), but it's not like any normal helicopter, military or any other that I have ever seen in my real life. It is barely off the ground, only a few feet, while another police helicopter is hovering a few hundred feet up.

We turn left into this grassy area and drive along a short dirt road while looking to see why the copter is so low and what the police chopper is doing above this chainlink fence...

There is a lady behind this chainlink fence on the other side of the wash (flood control channel). She is a chunky blond woman with a large male lion and she has what appears to be a bag of meat in her hand.

Alongside her she has a large dog on a leash that changes to what looks like a female lion. Also, spaced out about every 20 feet or so in a row, are more female lions and I counted 3 of those little yapping terrier dogs with the hairy snouts, but they are as big as the lion and her other large dog.

We pull over again and get out of the truck.

I see tools in the grass, a pair of reddish orange handled channel lock pliers and I go to pick them up and then we see some little kids we havn't seen in decades, but they are still small. One comes running up to me and shows me a bong he just found. He's taken off the plastic bottom on it. Before he gets there, I try and get my brother to hide the bong I was holding in his jacket so that the kids don't see it.

I tell the kids the story of what we just saw with the cops and the spider webbing attacks and even describe where it's at.

Devonshire st. and Woodman ave.

I tell them it was right across the street from Devonshire liquor store and to watch out for this stuff. If they see it "get the hell out of there".

The kids are all playing, laughing and having fun. One is on her bicycle and I comment how they havn't grown much.

Then I woke up.

I typed this out immediately.

It was so real!

Peace, Mark

peace2.gif


Posted by: Without Fear Feb 11 2005, 03:06 AM
Hi All, and wow Pupp - what a dream!
When I opened my PC today, I saw this on the AOL front page:

QUOTE
The Secret World of Dreams
By Russell Grant

Our ancestors believed that dreams were messages from the gods, and in days gone by, interpreters of dreams were visited much as doctors are today. Times may have changed, but the fascination with dreams remains.

In his fascinating book An Experiment With Time, Professor Dunne put forward the idea that all time is like a river, and that it can be navigated backwards or forwards in the vessel of dreams. Sleep is the road to dreamland. And, these days, thanks to advances in medical science, we certainly know more about that than our predecessors.

Talk about synchronicity!

I have also never seen a reference to Dunnes work before, so it was bizarre to find it today just after posting about him!

Out of courtesy to Russell, I looked up his web address and include a link to further reading there.
http://www.live-astro.com/dreams/dream_introduction.php

Here is a snip related to our dream discussion.
QUOTE

Deepest sleep comes upon us almost immediately. This is followed by a shorter period of lighter sleep in which our eyeballs dart about beneath our closed lids. This period of Rapid Eye Movement - or REM - is when we dream. It happens about five times in an eight-hour period. We usually wake up after the last one, and naturally these are the dreams we remember best.

There is some evidence that women dream for longer periods than men. Perhaps they simply enjoy their dreams more! Any kind of drugs - whether stimulants or sedatives - diminish the amount of dream time. So if you're ill or taking medication, you're less likely to dream. Dreams that you have while ill can be discounted as you're reacting to the illness rather than to a normal course of events.

Some people claim they never dream, but this is simply because they don't remember their dreams as well as others. Clinical tests have proved that when so-called non-dreamers are woken during REM sleep, they give vivid accounts of the images they have just seen, which are, like real-life events, in colour. Even our pets dream. If you watch a sleeping dog or cat, you can detect their Rapid Eye Movement.

So we dream about five times a night. Does anyone here remember five dreams?
I can only recall the one when I wake, and that has mostly gone by the afternoon.

And this appears to be precognition rather than a prediction based on our assessment and analysis of the past.
QUOTE

Once I dreamt I had gone to Euston Station. I looked at the clock and it was 4.10pm. Then the clock suddenly read 7.25pm, which even in my dream I thought was odd. I kept looking at that clock and it kept changing. About a week later, a friend was going to Blackpool from Euston on the 4.10pm train.

I warned him, "Don't get on that train. Get on the next one." The 4.10pm train was derailed. If he had been on it he could have been injured or even killed. Instead he took my advice and got on the next train. It left Euston at 7.25pm.

Precognitive dreams tap directly into our psychic source through our subconscious. Not only can they produce information about real-life events, they can also tell us important things about our general state of mind. Sometimes the same dream recurs time and time again.

These dreams are important because they show us the weak and strong points of our personality. The recurring dream deals with some aspect of life that hasn't been sorted out or laid to rest - or a problem that hasn't been solved. These dreams often reflect a loss - perhaps a relationship, or another form of pleasure and excitement. Once the issue is resolved, the repetitive dream stops.
Russell Grant



Yesterday I had the (crazy?) notion that dreams are part of our reprogramming process. Since then I have found a lot of personal resonance with the concept.

I would welcome other thoughts.
Is it a crazy notion?

WF







Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 11 2005, 06:11 AM
QUOTE
So if it is true that we dream many more times that we can remember and dreaming is essential for well-being, perhaps the real purpose of dreams is to gain information to give to our deeper levels, and occasionally this process requires the engagement of the conscious mind resulting in the lucid or memorable dream event?

                                                  From Without fear


I believe this is an accurate assessment. Now, if conscious involvement is only required occasionally, imagine the consequences for intentionally involving your conscious mind more and more...........an awareness of your "deeper levels" and a better understanding of yourself..................


Thanks for the link, I have work in a minute, so I'll only comment on the
"snip".........It is accurate but, I don't think it takes into account the full spectrum of dreams........for example, I have gone to sleep right after a night shift, understandably tired and dreamt immediately, I work in construction, and dreamt immediately about one of my co-workers and his hazourdous work ethic; poles were falling on me and I was being attacked by manlifts and forklifts........this lead into a short lucid dream where I decided to fly and incorporate beautiful woman......lasted not a long time buit waas awesome!!! When I woke up, it was only a few minutes later.......there was another human there who can verify and I had trouble getting back to sleep. So, based on that I am inclined that dream studies still have a ways to go.....but they're on the right track.


QUOTE
So we dream about five times a night. Does anyone here remember five dreams?I can only recall the one when I wake, and that has mostly gone by the afternoon.


I wake up more than once a night, so therefore I recall many dreams a night.....I usually make a quick assessment of the dream and let it "fall away" into oblivion....though based on my focus I sometimes retain memory for a while. Try the dream journal technique..........it really is just a matter of "training" your mind to think on that level. The training really isn't anything more than intentionally placing your attention on your subconscious.


QUOTE
Yesterday I had the (crazy?) notion that dreams are part of our reprogramming process. Since then I have found a lot of personal resonance with the concept.


Depends on what you mean by "re-programming." If you are talking about an outside influence, dreams can be manipulated by others through suggestion....though to be effective on the long term it would have to be concerted and over a reasonable amount of time.........otherwise, dreams are really the updating of your memory and environmental perception..........the more familiar you are to what consistently goes on in there, the more likely dreams can provide warning signs that you are being subversively influenced.........everything shows up on the "radar!!"

More later, gotta go

woohoo3.gif




Posted by: Mark Feb 11 2005, 06:27 AM
Are you kidding... crazy?

This is the looney zone!
straightjacket.gif
hehehe
QUOTE
I warned him, "Don't get on that train. Get on the next one." The 4.10pm train was derailed. If he had been on it he could have been injured or even killed. Instead he took my advice and got on the next train. It left Euston at 7.25pm.

wow2.gif That is prophetic! I'd be liking freaking out a little!

I can recall several dreams a night, usually they will contain different scenes and people.

I didn't dream at all last night....well, I do not recall any dreams, which is good cause they were starting to freak me out. I think when I put my words out in public like this, or even speak out loud, changes happen... it's fricken bizarre and been happening for 3 years.

But the night before, which I didn't write down, but I still remember 2 different dreams pretty well and they were SO DAMN REAL it was uncanny.

I'll just relate a small part of the last 2 dreams here from the other night:

DREAM Feb 11
After being in a huge dept store type warehouse with my former boss and longtime friend.

(Background Info - Real Life: We were friends for like 23 yrs, actually, I was his pot connection. And in the last days of working for him, I hurt my back really bad, even fell off a ladder once and we always smoked pot all day long while working. But I noticed that something changed in me. When I was stoned, I kept making simple mistakes and his anger level changed, He got pissed off at me for little things, totally out of character for him. He was no longer a nice man to me... he changed bigtime. - I wonder if I hurt my back - was it to keep me from being able to make that fateful 20 mile walk back in June 2003??? Hmmmm.
He was a Mormon whom I tried to convince that the saucer craft were real and we havn't spoken since around 2001)

Boy do I get sidetracked here... anyways, I'm following him around the store like a puppy dog and the strange part was when we left the shopping center, I got into one of those multiple connected tram type cars like Universal Studios has and it was full of people. I was in the back and the driver hit a bump and I went flying out of my seat. I grabbed a hold of one of the poles and held on. The driver is yelling at me to get back in my seat as my body is swinging wildly about, legs flailing parallel to the ground and whipping back and forth behind me.

I tell the driver, "I can't"... I bend my arms to pull myself closer, but I cannot come down. Almost like I was flying. It was sooo real. Sort of fun though. When we stopped, I explained to the driver that I tried to pull myself back in but could not, and then he wasn't so mad at me.

Next dream - Same night: I'm in a house, looked like the old house from Arleta that we rented from Mr. Reynolds.

I'm in the hallway and my sis-in-law walks towards me as I get out of the bathroom and she asks me if we have a vacuum cleaner. She tells me that the childrens tea party is today. I had totally forgotten to clean and the place was a mess. But when I look around the house - there is NO furniture there. I'm freakin out. All the closets are empty and the house looks basically abandoned.

Ok, that's enough...sorry for being so long winded. See what happens when yer sober?

hehehe

Without Fear, thanks for the additional info - and YES, synchronicity is HERE. Some of us seem to hit the same wavelengths while others must leave the premises
(forum too).

EDIT: P.S.
Thanks Sub Volitional!

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 12 2005, 09:07 AM
Just a few points, Pupp, on the dream you posted way up there....................


QUOTE
I realize in the dream that they didn't help because they are part of the assimilation but I was not afraid.



This is an important aspect of the dream. I'm sure that when you dreamt it, you didn't think or say that you weren't afraid(???). If that's is true than, this means that you are recognising your reactions to the world. That is good. The lack of fear/anxiety frees you up to focus on details and specifics; to concentrate more on the logic of your experience handclap.gif

I still think stronglt that this is the key to dreaming; not only being able to relate the events but to recognise how you feel. In real life, we are not often aware of how a situation makes us feel until retrospection can occur. Dreams are this retrospection, in a sense. To focus on how dream events make you feel is to equate them with real life events. And isn't the whole point of life to control your reality? It starts with an understanding of yourself ..........


QUOTE
There is a lady behind this chainlink fence on the other side of the wash (flood control channel). She is a chunky blond woman with a large male lion and she has what appears to be a bag of meat in her hand.


I wanted to direct your attention to this because of the non-sequitor nature........I can't possibly even begin to offer a generalized explanation for it, much less work towards a specific..............but you can. This is one of those "you know yourself better than anyone else dealio's. So, what do lions and blonds mean to you?

Note: It doesn't have to mean anything, it is an irregular aspect of the dream, however, as the dream is mostly highlighting your thoughts towards other people in corrolation to the subversive nature of your constant attentions(conspiracies).



QUOTE
Before he gets there, I try and get my brother to hide the bong I was holding in his jacket so that the kids don't see it.


and

QUOTE
I keep trying to smoke bong loads of that cheap green bud while constantly trying to hide from the black n white cop cars I see on the street.


Interesting in that these occured at two different junctures in the dream. Essentially, you were "hiding," but for two different reasons, it appears. One out of awareness for authority and One out of concern for children.


QUOTE
I tell them it was right across the street from Devonshire liquor store and to watch out for this stuff. If they see it "get the hell out of there".


This highlights your concern and desire to explain...........Good on ya.




Continuing my gratuitous use of smilies........ miner.gif Wolverinedizzy.gif peace2.gif






Posted by: Mark Feb 12 2005, 09:53 AM
Hey Sub Volitional, I really have no idea what the blond lady with the sack of meat (it was in a plastic baggie BTW) and the lions, large dogs and over sized terriers meant.

It was pretty bizarre to me.

But in my dream, I was NOT afraid, even though I knew I was with the enemy who hated me.

It's why I grabbed the hair of the passenger, I was pissed off!

I am normally a non violent person and do not like hurting people.

But you are right with the part about hiding from authority and hiding the bong from the kids. That is stuff I would do in my normal waking life.

You should hear the latest dream I had yesterday during the day. I was so tired and slept for several hours.

I saw more people from my past. Some of the apelike hybrids that live among us. One of them is named Troy. I went to jr. high with him. He was a short barrel chested hybrid creation. All of his siblings looked alike, almost as if they all came from the same mold.

REAL LIFE: Around 1990, he showed up at a bar I frequented called Fantasia in Northridge Calif. I had some nice arms back then... large biceps, as I was a gymnast and worked out for many years really hard.

user posted image

user posted image

Anyways, he asks me to arm wrestle him... so I'm all drunk and oblige... but I have a cracked right elbow from when I was 15 caused by my best friend at the time - a blue eyed Mormon, also apelike, but with red hair freckle genes. He dropped me onto the concrete when we were wrestling around one day and I shattered or cracked my right elbow. It has never fully healed to this day.

So I lost the arm wrestle right handed easily to Troy the apelike hybrid, but I said ok, let's go lefty. BAD MOVE - He snapped my arm ... made it go past the edge of the table and messed up my tendon really bad. I couldn't use the arm for several weeks without severe pain. Of course I never went to the doctor. I avoid THEM unless I am dying.

Well in my dream, he was standing near a doorway, and I walked by him and patted him on his barrel chest and said - "Hi Troy" - I was NOT afraid of him, even though I know he is the enemy and he hates me.

The dream was very long... it involved me getting my cats Pookie (who I currently have and Sonny who is dead now) from one location to another, and I didn't wake up until I had secured my cat Sonny who I had to put to sleep over a year ago. He was like 18 yrs old.

It was as if, as soon as I got both of my cats to this new location, I could end the dream and NO sooner. I woke up immediately afterwards.

But throughout the dream, I kept removing like construction debris from my mouth ... scraping it out with my fingers.

Now this is somewhat like MANY other dreams I have had, where it was as if I was removing bubble gum from my tongue, over and over. It would keep forming, and I would remove it. Totally bizarre, but so fricken real, I could feel it.

The same with the construction debris... small particles of like dust and chunks... I kept constantly scraping out my mouth, the sides of my cheeks to get this crud out and it would keep forming.

My ex sweetheart from college was also in yesterdays dream. She has been in many of my dreams AND nightmares. Sometimes, she has just watched with a worried look on her face as I was chased by demons.

Those demon nightmares were mostly from 2002 and 2003 after I had my awakening.

I don't let THEM frighten me anymore as I am fully aware of what THEY can do now in my dreams.

I do not believe this is all in my head, I fully believe that THEY - the alien race that lives among us - can get into our heads - especially in our dreams.

You may not believe me, but I have experienced too much weird stuff and when you realize there IS a telepathic species living among us that can fk with us, you may understand it better, or rather easier.

Again, I truly appreciate you taking your time to analyse our dreams as I feel it IS important to try and understand what our minds are doing.

Peace, Mark

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 12 2005, 11:17 AM
QUOTE
It's why I grabbed the hair of the passenger, I was pissed off!

I am normally a non violent person and do not like hurting people.


Makes sense.........dreams are where we express can note our expressions that are usually repressed due to social pressure..........grabbing the hair is, IMO, an expression of your frustration. Which is highly logical since you're essentially combating an invisible enemy.

QUOTE
I saw more people from my past.


As in the dream with your former boss/pal; dreams center upon social interactions because they represent the most consistent "unknown." Everyone can learn and understand their physical environment; I go to work here, I shop for food here, etc.

Sociality is never ever really known, we are constantly interacting with people and never really get a feel for their thoughts regarding us; we are concerned with how other people think/feel about us because it is inherent in our nature. Humans are a social animal and society is set up in a social hierarchy of sorts. Just look at commercials that use a spokesperson and how that person is using eye contact, body positioning(females especially), voice intonation, etc. They are appealing to your social nature, for current lack of a better expression. Every day we encounter new examples of this, some subtle, some irrelevant, some notable, but the constant is that we all compare and contrast these new experiences with the old, subconsciously and in dreams.

QUOTE
Well in my dream, he was standing near a doorway, and I walked by him and patted him on his barrel chest and said - "Hi Troy" - I was NOT afraid of him,


Speaks for itself, as no doubt you know.

QUOTE
But throughout the dream, I kept removing like construction debris from my mouth ... scraping it out with my fingers.


This is important though I don't know how or why. Any recurring action/dream indicates something you are repressing or not giving your full attention. You may consider trying to figure out what this means by attempting to go over your memories and finding corrolations. The gum and construction debris are probably related to the same "issue." The brain has a tendency to shelve things together based on your evolving experience accumulation(memory bank smileNew4.gif .


QUOTE
My ex sweetheart from college was also in yesterdays dream


She left an impression on you and will probably be there in one form or another for a long time. The "worried look on her face," just means that you valued her opinion when you were together and have residual concerns of what she thinks about you. Not unusual, sweethearts usually leave an impression because of the very nature of the interaction. As an exercise to test this out.............relax for a second and visualize said person. Remember the first interactions you had and while you're doing this try and focus on your physical reaction. This/these reactions are going to be subtle in nature, but you'll most likely, if you're remembering the good times you should notice a stronger affect on the left side of the body. This is because the hormones that are associated with this person have caused an "anticipation" of the "poisitive chemical reaction." That's muscle memory on a cellular level and the association translates into a psychological one. I'll have to find a way to refine this thought because it is the basis for behaviour towards the people in our lives. How we react to people is based on how we feel about them........and this gets communicated in our dreams as well. Sorry if this doesn't make sense; I can see it clearly in my head and probably got the translation muddled.


QUOTE
I do not believe this is all in my head, I fully believe that THEY - the alien race that lives among us - can get into our heads - especially in our dreams.


It's not all in your head. That is why an understanding of our mental/physical make-up is essential. The more we understand about ourselves, the more we can let the irrelevancies go and learn the nature of anything else........education is key.


QUOTE
You may not believe me


Wrong. I do believe you. I do not go into the nature of my experience fully because I want to avoid "trying to explain it." I find that I get people to take me seriously(the ones who have spent time and effort "messing with my mind") if I learn the science behind it, ruminate on the physical reality rather than my emotional/pyschologcal state(I save that for personal reflection and find my own answers; noone else can do that for me). Suffice to say that my experience caused me to think and figure out for myself the nature of dreams because They were manipulating them. I wanted to neutralize their ability to effect me with what I have come to undestand are their tried and true techniques; they don't have any tricks up their sleeve other than the ones they were taught!! They lack an understanding beyond what they were told because it is assumed that because they live up there "bove the rest of us," they must have all the answers. That is my conclusion. Learning/knowledge is the answer for real.

QUOTE
Again, I truly appreciate you taking your time to analyse our dreams as I feel it IS important to try and understand what our minds are doing.


I've been through alot, and it has been a psychological war, IMO(probably mostly from my point of view). Not only is this helping me to refine that which I believe to be a logical explanation, but if I can help, I will. IMO, I bring a very rational mindset to the table and want to 'splain it how I see it.



RW



Posted by: Mark Feb 12 2005, 12:05 PM
Hey Sub Volitional, I gauge a persons worth or value by how they make me feel when I read their words, whether they are directed towards me or not...

I can be easily upset, or made uncomfortable by a mere few hurtful words. It like... raises my blood pressure... makes my armpits sweat, gets my anxiety level going... and I KNOW it is NOT good for me.

But, after pouring my heart out in my dreams and lifes little stories, you come thru as a solid person of integrity, willing and trying to share what you know or believe in a non-condensending "I know it all" manner or putting me down as a fruitcake.

That means a lot to me and shows your true character IMO.

Yes, My ex sweetheart and I still have occasional contact, though she's married now with children, she still sends me an XMAS card every year. One of the only cards I get in fact.

She's a long haired brunette beauty from Guam and married to a carrot top guy who seems like a really nice man and is good to the kids.

The last I saw her though, she had a very worried look on her face, much like in the dream... it was in 2002 when I was under THEIR mind control/religious spell and I think she knew it.

The sad thing is... I have no friends anymore in real life, except for those online. Everyone I have known for 20 plus years I have either cut off contact with them, or viceaversa.

I truly feel most are/were part of this alien invasion... here to distract me, take up my time, not allow me to think for myself, to distract me and play video games, or porn, golfing, go bar hopping etc... and not be able to grow spiritually, mentally etc.

I'm so glad you can relate to the control of those who think they can manipulate our minds. (and actually do!)

Seriously though, I really don't know what's up with the chewing gum thing on the tongue, or the most recent, construction debris in my cheeks. It was totally different than anything that I was used to.

Some of my dreams, I can almost understand why... like the pot stuff... it's been a long time since I've had a toke, and I probably miss it.

But the lions, the large terrier dogs, the blond lady with the meat sack, the helicopters, the dying officers.... heck, I have no idea what that stuff was supposed to mean in relation to my life.

But if you're up to it... I'll share my future dreams here... but only if you say so... otherwise, I'll just forget about them.

Thanks again for taking your time and trying to help us understand what's really going on in our minds. That means a lot to me!



Hey Without Fear.... Where's your dreams???

straightjacket.gif
hehehe

Posted by: Nightshade Feb 12 2005, 05:52 PM
Wow, amazing topic! I keep meaning to say something, but get lost in thought reading through it and forget what I had to say smileNew4.gif It really gets ya thinking.

I think of it sort of like a polygraph--the better you undertand yourself, the better a "baseline" you have. A better baseline makes it easier for you to spot when something's off and differentiate between what comes from within, and what comes from outside manipulation.

Seeing as how we're sharing dreams here, I've been wondering if anyone else has had dreams that they weren't in, or has any idea what it might mean?

I had one about a year ago, I believe. I wasn't in it. As far as the person who's eyes I was seeing through was concerned, I didn't exist. Most of the dream played out in a third-person perspective until near the end, when it switched into a first-person view, but I had a strong sense that I was that person. I was a short man with medium-length red hair, and judging by the clothes, I'd say the timeframe was mid-1970's. I was sitting on a counter-top at the rear of the aisle in a large airplane. The plane was packed with passengers, flying through thick fog at night. There were quite a few of us at the back of the plane, some people who I knew and others that I didn't. I was joking around, making them all laugh (I wish I was that relaxed around new people...). There were a couple of stewardesses putting around in the aisle. This went on for what seemed to be quite a while. Everyone else on the plane began to look nervous, but I carried on, oblivious to whatever was frightenning them. One of the stewardesses came back looking panicked and told us to brace ourselves, so we all did. I wasn't afraid, but I was curious as to what exactly was going on. Then the plane started to roll...I could feel my stomach turning horribly. The plane rolled over a few times before levelling out.

I never got the sense that anything was wrong, or that we were in any kind of danger. I stormed up towards the cockpit; I was angry with the pilot, I'd somehow come to the conclusion that the rolling was because the pilot had gotten bored and decided to have some fun!

When I got to the front of the plane and opened the door, the plane shrunk and all the passengers disappeared. There were three men--the pilot, the co-pilot, both in flight suits and masks, and an important looking man standing behind the pilot. The pilot looked at me angrily and said "What the hell are you doing here, and how on earth did you get up here?"

The man behind the pilot said that I was on a US fighter jet, and that they had been under hostile fire (hence the stomach-churning manuvering). I even had to chuckle a little in my dream, because the way he spoke positively REEKED of Holywood. He said something about me having likely teleported on board through a hull breach before I woke up.


This the first and only time in my life that I'd ever had a dream I wasn't a part of, and I woke up feeling very strange blinkNEW.gif

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 13 2005, 09:17 AM
QUOTE
But, after pouring my heart out in my dreams and lifes little stories, you come thru as a solid person of integrity, willing and trying to share what you know or believe....


Thanks, that is good to here every once in while because I do strive in that direction....

QUOTE
But if you're up to it... I'll share my future dreams here... but only if you say so... otherwise, I'll just forget about them.


Forgetting them is exactly what this thread is designed to prevent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely share your dreams............I'll give you my two cents if you provide yours as well...........interpretation is relative and impossible to do without more than one perspective........that goes for everyone here.......please share your thoughts, we need all points of view.

QUOTE
Thanks again for taking your time and trying to help us understand what's really going on in our minds. That means a lot to me!


No problem.... this means alot to me as well. matrixnew3.gif bustingupNEW3.gif toothache.gif

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 13 2005, 09:42 AM
QUOTE
I think of it sort of like a polygraph--the better you undertand yourself, the better a "baseline" you have. A better baseline makes it easier for you to spot when something's off and differentiate between what comes from within, and what comes from outside manipulation.


Very interesting analogy.........and the last sentence is right on, imo!!!!! I'm glad you decided to post........

QUOTE
Seeing as how we're sharing dreams here, I've been wondering if anyone else has had dreams that they weren't in, or has any idea what it might mean?


I haven't had dreams that I wasn't in persay, but I have many dreams where I feel as if events are merely happening around me.......that is the basis for why I'm thinking on the whole social angle in dreams.........my involvement in a dream is more of the emotional impact or reaction to "events happening around me" and the strength of those particular emotions..........when I wake up from a dream, the first thing I do is attempt to find a real world similarity, meaning what real world event/action/anything comes to mind right after I recall the dream......this allows me to potentially center upon meanings or, at the very least, gives me more oppurtunity to reflect, which is never a bad thing. I find that I would rate my success rate fairly high.........but I can't account for personal bias yet!!!


QUOTE
Everyone else on the plane began to look nervous, but I carried on, oblivious to whatever was frightenning them.


Shows me that you have acclimated to not responding to people, even when you are very aware of their presence(I could be wrong)




QUOTE
I even had to chuckle a little in my dream, because the way he spoke positively REEKED of Holywood.


That is kind of the only thought I had regarding a dream in which the main charachter was not yourself.............T.V., Movies and various other forms of media have gotten people used to viewing storylines from other perspectives. The use of visual effects and sound effects are specifically designed to grab your attention and after a while they have been associated with a type of positive response, which is why we go back to the movies and anticipate physically the release of a particular movie that appeals as our favorite genre(this, of course, varies.)

The only other thought I have is the social aspect, but I hesitate with that because there are other reasons for dreaming the way we do.........plane dreams in this day and age could be resultant of 9/11 and as well could have been provoked by the association it has with the war on terror.........social impact being intertwined with your personal anxiety regarding events way beyond our control..........


Or it could be something else???

Posted by: Mark Feb 14 2005, 09:04 AM
Nightshade
QUOTE
Seeing as how we're sharing dreams here, I've been wondering if anyone else has had dreams that they weren't in, or has any idea what it might mean?

Hey Nightshade, I cannot recall any dreams where I was not myself off hand right now, but if I do, I'll be sure to share them.

Hey Sub Volitional, wow, we're keeping ya busy here.

Thanks for taking your time. You inspire me to write out more of my dreams.

Here's this mornings dream.

QUOTE
DREAM
Feb 13 2005
Mark J. Harper
2 Dreams.


1) Sexual dream during the night, early AM hours; trying to have sex with my gf but unsuccessful. It was so real, I could feel it... yes down there.
Sorry no more details for that one - hehehe

Early morning dream just before waking.

2) I'm sitting on the couch in our old house in Arleta that we rented from Mr. Reynolds with my half brother on my left and his blue eyed freckled skinned friend on my right.

(Note: this friend always brought the best smoke over to our house and tempted me with little tokes here and there and always said - "Moderation is the key".
But heck, I wanted to get stoned and bury myself so I didn't have to think about all the pain I had been through in my early childhood.
I've pretty much figured this out already....
The goal of the evil ones - traumatize the child, then feed them drugs and alcohol so their poor battered brain can try and forget the pain.)

Ok, back to the dream....

The conversation first started off as usual, with me shouting over my half brother, but he finally shut up and I was able to get my thoughts out.

I'm explaining to my brother the orgins of us on Earth. I tell him that both of our fathers are decendants of the new arrivals to earths surface as well as our grandmother on our mothers side. I tell him that our grandfather on our mothers side was an earth native... or a much earlier creation. (He was a short man with dark skin.)

I tell him that white people are new to earths surface, new creations.

But just as it was getting good... his friend interrupts me and totally makes me lose my train of thought. I get it back and continue with my explanation,

I started telling him that the black people were most likely the original race of earth but that we were all basically created as slaves. And the oriental race was another type of alien species.

But just as I start telling him about the black race, my brother turns on a small boombox next to his head, gets a funny look on his face and turns up the volume to drown out my words.

Unknown to me, a black man is in the back bedroom. He walks out of the hallway from my left to right and is carrying a couple of boxes. He is there to buy something. Looks like video games.

Now I realize why my brother turned up the radio, cause of this person.

The person shows what he's collected from the back room, and I flip.

My half brother is selling my Atari collection.

(In real life, I actually sold my entire Atari collection of 70 games, and all of the controllers back in the mid 90s for 50 dollars. Cost me well over 1200 dollars. Nice investment - 'eh?)

I get pissed.... boy am I angry... I'm chasing him around the house, thru the dining room, into the kitchen and then into the hallway... "WHY?" - "WHY?" - "WHY?" I keep saying. He is terrified of me.

Apparently he needed the money for drugs (cocaine I think).

(But in real life, back in the mid 80s, I WAS the one who sold all of my possessions... 2500 comics of my comic book collection, my coin collection and anything of value I had to feed my addiction. He never got addicted like me. I was the one afflicted, he was not.)

I catch him in the hallway and I grab him by the throat like he always did to me in real life when he would beat me.

I used my left hand and grabbed him firmly around the throat and started to lift him up off of the ground and pulled my right fist back to slam it into his face.

But I held back and instead of hitting him, I dropped him onto the hallway floor. He struggled to get up.

What I remember the most is how scared and terrified he looked.

Then my gfs alarm went off and I woke up.


Note: I'd like to add, that I woke up in a good mood and my spirit feels strong.

WHENEVER this happens... whenever my spirit grows stronger, whenever I'm in a decent mood, she causes problems, gets mean and nasty and turns sour on me.

She is being so mean to me this morning. It totally sucks, but I'm not gonna let her get to me.

Happy Valentines Day I guess!

ROTATINGHEART.GIF

Posted by: Nightshade Feb 15 2005, 12:37 AM
Hey SubVolitional, thanks again smileNew4.gif I like your take on dream interpretation--focusing on the reality based and inner emotional and social aspects. I remember a friend of mine used to have one of those huge dream dictionaries, I never understood how any of that worked. I'd always figured that if my mind wanted to use symbolism, it would stick with symbols that I've learned and understand. At any rate, if there's anything to that method, I have yet to see it.


QUOTE
Shows me that you have acclimated to not responding to people, even when you are very aware of their presence(I could be wrong)


While that doesn't sound much like me today, it does sound like me a long time ago, particularly in my childhood. I was more or less brought up on the "don't speak unless spoken to" system until I got older, when I was often accused of being just plain rude for ignoring people. But I was never trying to be rude to them, or make them feel ignored, or that I wasn't interested in them, it was just that my communication skills pretty much consisted of being told to shut up! I was always much more sensitive as a kid (and still am, actually), so childhood was tons of fun....anyways....

I'm not so much like that anymore, unless I'm with a large group of people who I don't know well and can't relate to, in which case the old instincts and programming tend to kick in. I still find approaching new people difficult, but it's one of those things that I've had to learn to do.


Hmm, I recall that at the beginning of the dream, it felt somewhat movie-like, but it didn't take long for me to settle into it and really become that person to the point that I forgot that I even existed.

Now that I've reflected on it a little bit more, this part actually makes some sort of sense -- I spent the majority of my life very detached from myself, to the point where every aspect of life seemed surreal. Old coping mechanisms run amuck coupled with long time substance abuse flyhigh.gif (been looking for a reason to use that emoticon!). I still slip back into that occasionally, but when I do, the state of detachment feels strange and uncomfortable, rather than normal.

I'm still not sure what the purpose of the plane was though, 9/11 didn't really affect me much (the people killed, yes, but the event itself not so much). I damn near got myself lynched shortly after it happened for saying that while it's tragic that so many lost their lives, these kinds of things are daily occurences around the world (I would have probably been killed if I was an American! blinkNEW.gif) What affects me most isn't 9/11 itself, but the conspiracy behind it and the atrocities that have happened in its name.


Anyways, happy Valentine's day ROTATINGHEART.GIF

er...well, it was technically still Valentine's day when I started writing this out, at any rate, too bad I can't think, evaluate, reword and proofread all at the same time as quickly as I can type smileNew4.gif

Edit: whoops, html tags aren't much use for formatting text in here... luvcoffee.gif

Posted by: Nightshade Feb 15 2005, 02:24 AM
I think I'll try my hand at this...I would still consider myself in a relatively early learning stage when it comes to dreams, so I mean this more as an outside perspective to rebound your own reflections off of than anything else.

QUOTE
From the Subconscious Mind of PuPP:

Sorry no more details for that one - hehehe

Aww sadoriginal.gif

Ahem... getting serious now...

QUOTE
The person shows what he's collected from the back room, and I flip.

My half brother is selling my Atari collection.........

.....Apparently he needed the money for drugs (cocaine I think).

(But in real life, back in the mid 80s, I WAS the one who sold all of my possessions... 2500 comics of my comic book collection, my coin collection and anything of value I had to feed my addiction. He never got addicted like me. I was the one afflicted, he was not.)


(I know first-hand how deeply personal a struggle with addiction can be, so I apologize if any assumptions that I make here are insensitive to you PuPP)

While it may be us who give up the things we hold dear, whatever they might be, to fuel an addiction, it's often difficult to really consider it our own actions. Between the fact that our need for drugs often dictates most of our actions, and the reasons we feel the need to escape reality to the point of addiction in the first place (ie childhood trauma due to the cruelty of others), it's hard to claim ourselves fully responsible. Personally, I don't feel that claiming full responsibility is necessary -- there's a fine line between responsibility and beating ourselves over the head with self-blame. I've seen many people in recovery going from blaming everybody else to hoisting the weight of the world on their shoulders and claiming that EVERY problem they've ever had is 100% their fault in some way or another -- neither is healthy IMO. Anyways, I have lots to say on that but that's for another time, just wanted to make clear that what I see in this portion of your dream isn't a bad thing.

If your half-brother introduced you to drugs or was someone you used with frequently, that would explain quite a bit about him selling your things in this dream. If not, then I'm not sure what his involvement means, but I'd imagine you have the answer to that one.

QUOTE
I catch him in the hallway and I grab him by the throat like he always did to me in real life when he would beat me.


This reminds me of the dream you posted earlier involving Troy. The actions may be more intense, but it strikes me as a similar situation...

QUOTE
I used my left hand and grabbed him firmly around the throat and started to lift him up off of the ground and pulled my right fist back to slam it into his face.

But I held back and instead of hitting him, I dropped him onto the hallway floor. He struggled to get up.


I think this pretty much speaks for itself -- you aren't afraid, and won't be pushed around anymore, but you won't stoop to their level and bring them harm.


Hope I could help a little bit, just my two cents smileNew4.gif

Posted by: Mark Feb 15 2005, 03:34 AM
Awww thanks Nightshade, and no, you didn't come off as insensitive or condensending at all.

Words are very powerful and I can really get a feel from people and almost see inside their soul with how they express themselves.

Maybe one day I'll share my sexual dreams, they are pretty bizarre, but I try and run a clean forum, ya know - hehehe

Yes, I refuse to stoop to their level and inflict pain, even though they truly deserve it and I also refuse to be afraid or intimidated ever again.

Even in real life. I don't care how big someone is.

Though, recently, a couple of months ago, I was woken up from deep sleep, an afternoon nap, suffering a minor depression, and there was a blue eyed marshmallow (obese) Hispanic guy at my door and it really messed me up.

He puffed away on 4 chemical cigarettes while standing on my patio, as I gagged of course and held my breath, while repeatedly asking to come in to my apt and wanted any stereos, tvs, computers or anything of value I had. I got scared - heart was pounding! Of course, I went outside and never let him in.

He had another guy waiting by the car and I thought for sure I was gonna get mugged, and when I first wake up, the last thing I want is physical activity.... 'er unless it's the good kind - hehehe

After that visit, since I do not own a gun and do not like them, I took some of the donation money and went out and bought a 300,000 volt stun gun.

I wrote up the visit in a thread in case something happened to me. Titled "I was just threatened" I think I moved it to the Welcome Wagon section. Maybe I should move it to You Gotta See This section... and pin it.

Anyways, this blue eyed cigarette smoking marsmallow man named Jose had come to collect on a debt I owed for chemically laced brickweed smuggled in from Mexico that was fronted to me over a 5 year period by a black eyed Hispanic marshallow man named Guillermo.

Besides being a marshmallow person, Guillermo had real female breasts - fricken bizarre - I considered him an abomination of humanity.

Guillermo used me to store his pot at my apt and one time he also stored 1/4 lb of cocaine against my wishes, but at the time, I was too weak and allowed that poison into my home.

I actually screwed up and after about 13 years (Notice the symbolic number) of being clean, one night while drunk back in 1999, I sucked up 1-1/4 oz of cocaine (about 35 grams). I was awake for 3 days, I was actually peeing orange and it almost killed me.

I honestly believe that was the goal - to kill me. But lucky for me, my body was still strong enough and I survived.

I paid off the coke debt by selling my car, but he continued to pump me pounds of pot and I smoked so much of the stuff, besides all of the rip off deals, seeds and stems and low grade crap, I soon found myself in debt for 3 grand.

Then he brought more crack into my home and I stored it in my safe.

But I had already realized what he was trying to do and did not touch it this time.

Satans - Tempters are all around us and live among us.

During my nightmares of 2002, guess who was in them, feeding me crack cocaine?

Yup, Guillermo!

The nightmares of 2002 were truly frightening.

I have never been that afraid in my dreams since I was small child and lived with the alcoholic, abusive, barrel chested, hazel eyed, genius step father who loved to come in late at night and grab me by my hair and yank me out of the top bunk of our bunkbeds, headfirst, straight to the floor. Back in the 1960s bunkbeds were much higher, I could touch the ceiling without sitting up all the way in bed.

I'd go to school with an egg on my forehead the size of a mans fist.

And back then, the cops or the courts wouldn't or couldn't help us.

Oh, and in 2002, Carrot Top, the comedian was also in my nightmares, feeding me a crack pipe from inside the shower. - Talk about Bizarre again!

Now, the only thing I can think of for Carrot Top being in my dreams was that THEY are another species of hybrids (The pale skinned redheads) that are here interbreeding on earth. And are part of the mind manipulation. Khazars?

I recently read about Easter Island - I'll make a post soon for it - and it states there were 3 types of humans discovered on Easter Island when the explorers arrived. Brown skinned, red skinned and pale skinned red heads.

The interbreeding program and colonization has been going on for quite some time while slaughtering hundreds of millions of earths natives.

We have basically been replaced and interbred with.

Sorry, for rambling, but this stuff just flowed out of me.

Thanks for reading.... or not.

straightjacket.gif
hehehe
Peace, Mark
face.gif

P.S. I'm surrounded here by the hybrids too and they know that I know, they seem to be able to read my mind - yeah, sounds insane, see image above. heh

They are a combination of reptilians and marsmallow people - I think the marshmallow people are more of an aquatic species.

Most seem to be nice folks. And of course, They all know I would never hurt them, unless they try and harm me.

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 15 2005, 06:17 PM
QUOTE
Hey Sub Volitional, wow, we're keeping ya busy here.


Wow, place got busy all of a sudden!! Awesome!! It's been awhile, but work has been fun( I hope it rains tomorrow so I don't have to go!)

At any rate.......

QUOTE
Hey SubVolitional, thanks again  I like your take on dream interpretation--focusing on the reality based and inner emotional and social aspects. I remember a friend of mine used to have one of those huge dream dictionaries, I never understood how any of that worked. I'd always figured that if my mind wanted to use symbolism, it would stick with symbols that I've learned and understand. At any rate, if there's anything to that method, I have yet to see it.

                      From NightShade


Right on, I appreciate the feedback. My angle was to go about and find a logical perspective because there are many different ideologies/religions/fill in the blank"this is the answer," But everyone dreams!! So what is the common ground? People are the common ground and evolution is proven. Seems logical. The kicker seems to be the interpretations, as they are contingent on the personal life of the individual........many factors go in to the personality of any given human and a lot of it isn't known to the analyzer(unless you can analyze yourself, which is primarily the goal with this thread...).

Your take on dream dictionaries are right on, imo.

QUOTE
While that doesn't sound much like me today, it does sound like me a long time ago, particularly in my childhood.


This is important in that you get to exercise your memories..........by accessing memory you consciously become more aware of how events transpire around you. Right on.

I like your analysis..........the point where you referenced "Troy," that helps illustrate the cumulative nature of dreams and the recurrances that usually get lost in the mix due to the change in subject and charachters.........now if we can get Pupp to join in.......I'll post some of my dreams in the near future and see what you guys come up with.....

A few points on this dream though......not trying to undermine you NightShade, just trying to keep up the flow of conversation........


QUOTE
) Sexual dream during the night, early AM hours; trying to have sex with my gf but unsuccessful. Sorry no more details for that one - hehehe


This is self-explanatory; I'm going to have to decide not to agree with NightShade......Pupp, you are very charitable in refraining from further explanation here.......whew!

By the way, I like how you try to provide background on yourself......it helps to understand more........also, I'm not sure if I stated this already but it might prove interesting to catalog your initial conscious thoughts in reaction to the dream, i.e. what do you feel, what does it remind you of, etc......personal endeavor of course.


QUOTE
I'm explaining to my brother the orgins of us on Earth.


Continuing the trend of having people in your social structure not accepting some of your thoughts.........you do center on "alternative subject matter," ironic, since a lot of stuff here is based in truth. At any rate, this is pretty much, imo, representative of you trying to explain things upon unwilling ears. Maybe, some people don't want to hear the truth.........

QUOTE
But just as I start telling him about the black race, my brother turns on a small boombox next to his head, gets a funny look on his face and turns up the volume to drown out my words.


This tells me that you percieve that your brother will not entertain the notions you have.........have you decided to stop trying to explain your thoughts to him?

QUOTE
My half brother is selling my Atari collection.

(In real life, I actually sold my entire Atari collection of 70 games, and all of the controllers back in the mid 90s for 50 dollars. Cost me well over 1200 dollars. Nice investment - 'eh?)


Just a thought, maybe you identify yourself with your brother.....admire/respect/or the opposite thereof.......that might help you understand why you "switched identities.

QUOTE
I get pissed.... boy am I angry... I'm chasing him around the house, thru the dining room, into the kitchen and then into the hallway... "WHY?" - "WHY?" - "WHY?" I keep saying. He is terrified of me.


Important as there is you asking the question of all questions.....why. The addendum here though is that you seem to have yelled it and thus would indicate that the asking of why is stemming from a deep-seated frustration. This would be a question(not a specific one) that you had a while ago and has never been answered.......you would need to maybe reflect on periods of change, you have already stated the difficulties of 2002/2003, are there any others? Though most likely not as impactive as that one they are important as well. All periods of personal change are responsible for your current state and should be reflected on as well......they might hold the reasons for frustration...........




QUOTE
him in the hallway and I grab him by the throat like he always did to me in real life when he would beat me.


Like NightShade said......you might equate some motivating factor to your brother for the situations you found yourself in. Though if he beat you in real life(was it when you were growing up?), then the dream representation is most likely because of those times. Still, why this particular situation would arise in your dreams now is worthy of some reflection.......


QUOTE
Though, recently, a couple of months ago, I was woken up from deep sleep, an afternoon nap, suffering a minor depression, and there was a blue eyed marshmallow (obese) Hispanic guy at my door and it really messed me up.


This could have something to do with your concerns.....I would search for resolution as something of this nature where you end up feeling out of control will affect you for awhile.......loss of control is a powerful feeling in that it will get accentuated in subsequent times of stress......it would be good to get a lock on that to the point of being able to *sigh relief* Good Luck.......I got your support right here(as do your fellow "Pupps Theories members)

QUOTE
Oh, and in 2002, Carrot Top, the comedian was also in my nightmares, feeding me a crack pipe from inside the shower. - Talk about Bizarre again!


I'm just going to state for the record that Carrottop is evil............seriously, I think that this illustrates the effect of mainstream media on our subconscious.........Bizarre because it is!!!!! Our brains take in a whole lot of information and it is bound to get caught up with the inanities at times.

In closing I also want to state that I think this thread rocks........I'll post some of my dreams and see what you guys come up with........


ROSEBLOOM.GIF For the ladies as a belated valentines





Posted by: Mark Feb 15 2005, 07:02 PM
Hey Sub Volitional, thanks for being you!

Yes, my brother loved to hurt me when we were growing up. He thrived on it. He'd get this look in his eyes and his tongue would sort of roll and stick to his teeth just before he was going to inflict pain.

HE IS NOT LIKE ME - Though we are half brothers.

I had 2 more bizarre dreams this morning. One I wrote up already and I may post it later, gotta fix the typos and add more details still but it's pretty strange and it deals with me and a small bull type creature battling... but then I went back to bed and had a 2nd dream... a horrible cocaine dream that my half brother was in and the person in my Bizarre Photos thread was also there...
(see Bizarre Photos in this Paranormal Section - there are two threads, one has more info... the guy was a blue eyed pale skinned demon??? who didn't appear in the photo.)

I have NOT thought about this person, and yet he was in my 2nd dream this morning. In my dream, which I have not written up yet, I was so angry at him, I had him on the ground and put my knee onto his neck. I really tried to hurt him, which is so unlike me.

But I think I really wanted to kill him.

Now understand, I do NOT desire that cocaine poison or even think about it other than these dream posts.

Now... Pot, marijuana, maybe... but NOT cocaine. The evil ones are reading these posts or my text... YES, they do that and have been monitoring me for quite some time.

THEY can see right into my apt here, thru the walls or they have mini cameras everywhere... it's enough to drive a person insane, and yes, I'm already halfway there.
straightjacket.gif

I have some sort of protection, or you wouldn't even be reading my words and this site wouldn't exist.

I'll fix my typos and post my one dream, maybe even the 2nd one, depends on how I feel.

I do NOT like the fact that what I post is being used against me, and I do NOT believe my mind is creating these nightmares.

If I was in total control, my dreams would be of me running thru green fields with long, dark haired, bronze skinned women who do not have hairy thighs.

hehehe

Peace, Mark

Posted by: Mark Feb 15 2005, 07:13 PM
Also, just before, earlier that night (I sleep at odd times), I had another weird dream that had another old pot connection in it... a jew named Gary and his wife. But she wasn't the fat blue eyed hog (marshmallow person) she was in real life in the dream. She was a hotty.

Also another old former friend Laura (another marshmallow person) was in the dream. It was another totally bizarre dream.

I didn't write it up, but I still remember most of it.

I think I may have to refrain from writing these dreams up as it merely seems to let THEM know THEY are getting into my mind.

We'll see how tonight goes.

Peace, Mark
peace2.gif

Posted by: Nightshade Feb 15 2005, 11:42 PM
QUOTE
Maybe one day I'll share my sexual dreams, they are pretty bizarre, but I try and run a clean forum, ya know - hehehe


Erm...it's alright, I was just joking on that one blinkNEW.gif I get some mighty strange ones fairly regularly, but it would probably be best if I spared you guys and kept them to myself lol.gif

Something you might find interesting, the name Guillermo would have reminded me of marshmallows even if you hadn't mentioned them. I speak fluent French (although it's getting rusty over the years from lack of use...), and the French word for marshmallow is Guimauve. The French version of the name "William" is Guillaume, which sounds quite similar to marshmallow. There was a William in my class throughout elementary school, and he looked quite a bit like a marshmallow. Consequently, the other kids called him Guimauve for years. I would imagine that Guillermo is the Spanish equivalent of William.

Pupp, I know all too well what it's like to have an abusive step-father hugs.gif

QUOTE
The interbreeding program and colonization has been going on for quite some time while slaughtering hundreds of millions of earths natives.

We have basically been replaced and interbred with.


I wonder....how many of us are actually 100% Earth human...I can't imagine that it's very many.

QUOTE
P.S. I'm surrounded here by the hybrids too and they know that I know, they seem to be able to read my mind - yeah, sounds insane, see image above. heh


Honestly, I think the craziest people are the ones who are convinced that they're completely sane. But then, who am I to talk, my medical records have certified lunatic stamped all over them crazy.gif

I've been certain that my mind and thoughts are far from private since my earliest memories -- I can feel it when they're listening the same way people feel when someone's staring at them, only amplified. I have some empathic abilities myself that go well above and beyond body language and other such things that science tries to attribute this to, as well as some (very) basic telepathic abilities with people I'm close to. I first discovered the latter in 2002, Laz (Taranis, my other half) and I were listening to C2C late one night and decided it would be fun to experiment a little with communicating telepathically. It started as more of a game than anything else, but we both ended up quite thoroughly shocked by the results. Funny thing is, when it comes to that sort of communication, I'm the opposite of what I usually am. I'm much more of a listenner than I am a talker, but when it comes to thought communication, I'm considerably better at projecting my thoughts clearly than I am at receiving them. I found this somewhat odd, considering my nature and how easily I pick up on peoples' emotions.

(Slight edit, telepathic is more the word I'm looking for here)

Er, what I meant to say before getting into that little rant is that I don't think it's crazy at all to think that others might be reading your mind.

QUOTE
SubVolitional
This is important in that you get to exercise your memories..........by accessing memory you consciously become more aware of how events transpire around you. Right on.

This one was a bit of a brain fart for me after reading your feedback. scratchinghead.gif

QUOTE
now if we can get Pupp to join in.......I'll post some of my dreams in the near future and see what you guys come up with.....

I'll try!

I'll also post some more dreams if I can manage to remember any of them, maybe I'll have better luck on the weekend when I can sit down and write them out upon waking up rather than racing out the door like a bat out of hell (a tired one, too, as you might gather from the times I usually post at...)

QUOTE
A few points on this dream though......not trying to undermine you NightShade, just trying to keep up the flow of conversation........

Heh, don't worry about that -- I was hoping Pupp would get a second opinion on that one. Besides, it's your thread! At any rate, I see what I wrote more as an outside perspective than an interpretation. Each perspective from which you can see is another set of tools with which to form your own analysis. The more perspectives, the more you have to reflect with and the better an understanding you can acheive

QUOTE
In closing I also want to state that I think this thread rocks........I'll post some of my dreams and see what you guys come up with........


I have to agree, this is probably my favorite thread scoping.gif

P.S. - Carrot Top is most definitely evil to the core.

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 18 2005, 08:15 AM
QUOTE
Now understand, I do NOT desire that cocaine poison or even think about it other than these dream posts.

From Pupp


I don't think that you do........but then, why do you dream about it? This is the seeming paradox that makes dreams so indiscernable......they don't follow a rhyme or reason, or at least not of the typical sort that our minds have become accustomed to dealing with.

But remember, if you will, the feeling of cocaine(I have had my experiences too.)
Cocaine is powerful because of the chemical reactions it induces in the body....

QUOTE
After cocaine is introduced to the body it travels to reward areas of the brain: the ventral tegmental area (VTA), the nucleus accumbens and the prefrontal cortex. These areas are saturated with dopamine synapses. Normally, after dopamine is released in the synaptic cleft, it binds to the dopamine receptors; reuptake sites (protein transported structures) will utilize the rest of the neurotransmitter (dopamine). In the presence of cocaine the normal process of reuptaking is breached. Cocaine binds to the uptake sites, which leaves a higher concentration of dopamine in the synaptic cleft. The higher activation of dopamine receptors in the post-synaptic cell causes various intracellular changes, which ultimately lead to changes in firing patterns.


From wikipedia


Now, the unconscious mind isn't going to forget this unprecedented not often felt stimulus. Remember, dreams are the result of how you interpret your environment and in this case, you went through a series of interpretations in a short amount of time; the nature of cocaine is the euphoria/comedown/rinse and repeat. This type of extreme action on a biological/cellular level is what caused you to feel and think the way you did. How you feel and how you thought can be viewed as the associations for the drug. The showcasing of the drug in your dreams can represent all or parts of this series of thoughts/reactions. Understanding which is a task for the objective mind to view the context of your dream; i.e. what else happened and how could it relate to now, then, or when. Don't view cocaine as evil as that mindset is of the reactive mind and will prevent you from analyzing the events clearly.......you don't want to tinge the other portions of those associations negatively if they don't deserve to be viewed that way.


QUOTE
...and I do NOT believe my mind is creating these nightmares.


at the very least, your mind is still interpreting those nightmares.....at this point, whether or not your creating them is immaterial, right? Like I have said, the key to controling yourself is to understand yourself......


QUOTE
I think I may have to refrain from writing these dreams up as it merely seems to let THEM know THEY are getting into my mind.


If they do their job at half-efficiency they will get into your mind.........once you understand that, it's all over for them. The fact that they are getting to you and are in your head is their biggest weapon......it's a tough one to get over and infinetely reinforceable. So let them have it. What will change? Well, for starters, once you decide to not care how much they are in your head you can work on learning and expanding your thought base......they can't stop you from that. They can only hope to influence you. With a better understanding of yourself comes confidence and all of a sudden they can't even do that any more. I urge you to relax and think about that. The biggest weapon they have is your mind against yourself........concede the point to gain the victory.

That is my take, based in my experience.

Edit to specify a passage


Continuing my gratuitous use of smileys......... teleport.gif chinscratch.gif ShockedMouse.gif

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 18 2005, 08:24 AM
QUOTE
But then, who am I to talk, my medical records have certified lunatic stamped all over them

From Night Shade


Same here......it's to the point where my co-workers know of my insanity........highly inconvenient from a social aspect.......kind of why I like the internet so much.........

QUOTE

QUOTE 
SubVolitional
This is important in that you get to exercise your memories..........by accessing memory you consciously become more aware of how events transpire around you. Right on.


This one was a bit of a brain fart for me after reading your feedback.


Just tryin' to say that reflection is a positive thing......I was probably being redundant....my bad.

QUOTE
The more perspectives, the more you have to reflect with and the better an understanding you can acheive.


I agree with this 100%.







Posted by: Mark Feb 18 2005, 09:46 AM
Hey Nightshade, I had no idea about Guillermo and marshmallow. Interesting indeed. He IS an abomination of humanity. It doesn't mean he's evil, he is battling his own demons most likely and I would never seek to physically harm him or his accomplices unless in self defense of course.

My days of turning the other cheek are over.

Glad you agree about Carrot Top, though I did think his comedy routine was at times very funny, he just creeps me out now whenever I see him.

I am also creeped out if I watch cable tv news (FOX/MSN/CNN) or even local news, THEY all give me the creeps as THEY smile and lie to my face.

It just upsets me sooo much!

So, I don't watch the news and I feel better.



Hey SubVolitional, after I posted those recent dreams I have had the best sleep in weeks. No dreams, or any ones that I can remember.

Now you must realize, my dreams recently were SO REAL and vivid and lucid that it was almost frightening, but I was NOT afraid. And I had almost total recall as you can tell by my elaborate texts.

But the cocaine/crack dreams are a definite ATTACK on me and my spirit/soul.

Satans Tempters are hard at work and I FULLY believe THEY can get into our minds. But like you said...
QUOTE
If they do their job at half-efficiency they will get into your mind.........once you understand that, it's all over for them. The fact that they are getting to you and are in your head is their biggest weapon......it's a tough one to get over and infinetely reinforceable. So let them have it. What will change? Well, for starters, once you decide to not care how much they are in your head you can work on learning and expanding your thought base......they can't stop you from that. They can only hope to influence you. With a better understanding of yourself comes confidence and all of a sudden they can't even do that any more. I urge you to relax and think about that. The biggest weapon they have is your mind against yourself........concede the point to gain the victory.

Most excellant WORDS!

But... I DO NOT WANT THEM IN MY HEAD ANYMORE!

YES, I am not going to let them influence me!

As Pat Benatar said: "We will be invincible, and with the power of conviction, there is no sacrifice"

I have one more dream I partially wrote up about my battle with a horned bull beast the other night. I'll share it soon.

Thanks Sub Volitional us straightjacket.gif gotta stick together!
hehehe

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 21 2005, 12:35 PM
All Right......here goes.........

A dream from last night........

QUOTE
Seekout a room which contained a middle-aged woman/asian descent.  The room at first was like a music room, and then later it looked more like an apartment.  I forgot what I was trying to say to her but she tries to comfort me by offering to put on a video cassette......I notice a music set and ask her if it really works and she says only if you play them enough.  The title that drew my attention was "memory" but as I looked at it I saw that it really sais, "string theory," or,"string memory."  That leads me to say something about guitars and I see that she has one leaning against the wall.....I begin to play and notice the guitar has buttons....it is difficult to reach around the neck and try to press three buttons at the same time!!!!

The woman then recieves a phone call......but I know the phone call is meant to discuss my whereabouts.  Moments later a guy(reminds me of my Uncle Wayne) comes to the apartment and knocks on the door.....he is trying to get me but one of the weapons is a feather duster(?!?).......as I'm going out the door he throws a bean sac at me and I laugh, saying, "what, did you just want to see something hit me?"  The last thing I remember is running up a muddy hill and he begins to sprint and catch up to me but slips at the last second.......I laugh hysterically as I look back towards the muddy road and notice that my pace is steady...


There you go......a piece of me out on a limb for all of you to point and make fun or just to throw virtual pieces of rotten fruit......lol2.gif



Posted by: Mark Feb 21 2005, 10:41 PM
Hey SubVolitional,
roflsmiley.gif lol2.gif lol.gif
hehehe

Nah, I can't make fun of ya, even if you were in the mud and getting bean bags thrown at you while using a feather duster as a weapon and trying to play a guitar with 3 buttons.

I didn't dream or recall my dreams for a few days, but then they started up again.

The other night, I must have had 5 or 6 dreams but I'm not gonna share them all... too much for my weary head.

I will share the battle with the bull soon as that one is probably symbolic.

But one of the dreams I had the other night... I was sitting down with 3 nice old reptilian ladies who were very sweet and we were having a nice conversation. I liked them. But their faces would be considered hideous to most people, but not to me. I've learned not to be afraid or offended just because someone looks different.

What matters is what's in your heart and how you treat others and Earth itself.

Ok, now go easy with that feather duster weapon!

face.gif

Posted by: Nightshade Feb 22 2005, 12:09 AM
Now where's that rotten fruit flinging emoticon I'm looking for...?

laughspin.gif

Alas, you'll need to find someone better at this than I to make any sense of this one. But guitar dreams are always good in my books, at least until I wake up and start playing and sound dismal in comparison to my dreams, where I can play like Marty Friedman, Dave Murray and Chris DeGarmo combined into one super being jam.gif

QUOTE
Just tryin' to say that reflection is a positive thing......I was probably being redundant....my bad.

It's alright, I probably should have worded that a little (a lot smileNew4.gif ) better--what I meant was that your observations and feedback led me to reflect on an important part of my life that I'd more or less shoved in a corner and forgotten about, and everything made a lot more sense afterwards (hence the brain fart).

QUOTE
What matters is what's in your heart and how you treat others and Earth itself.

So true, it needs repeating face.gif

I still haven't been able to recall any dreams, been too stressed I think, but I'll be sure to post 'em up if I do....let us know if you can make any sense of that dream of yours, I'm curious now smileNew4.gif (I promise I'll hold back on the fruit flinging!)

...you would probably never guess it now, but I used to really hate emoticons crazy.gif (this guy's definitely my favorite, the first one to make me audibly laugh!)

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 22 2005, 08:11 AM
QUOTE
I notice a music set and ask her if it really works and she says only if you play them enough. The title that drew my attention was "memory" but as I looked at it I saw that it really sais, "string theory," or,"string memory."



I'm pretty sure that it has alot to do with my thoughts to remembering dreams so that I could share.....reminiscent of the days where I would write my dreams on paper as often as possible...I had just restarted the nightly reminders....


QUOTE
That leads me to say something about guitars and I see that she has one leaning against the wall.....I begin to play and notice the guitar has buttons....it is difficult to reach around the neck and try to press three buttons at the same time!!!!


Not quite sure what this means beyond a literal reference to music. I used to play bass and after that, guitar for a while. I used it as an escape when things got weird on me......it was pretty rough for awhile to the point that my goal was to write the most depressing/haunting song.....I've perked up a bit since then. But notice that a bit before this in the dream I apparrently felt that the woman was trying to comfort me......Music as a comfort...makes sense. The three buttons, to me, represent the attempts at playing chords.....I was always better at playing bass, so I think the buttons only refer to the difficulty I had in playing chords.


QUOTE
The woman then recieves a phone call......but I know the phone call is meant to discuss my whereabouts.


I'm a calm yet paranoid fella...!


QUOTE
Moments later a guy(reminds me of my Uncle Wayne)


My aunt was supposed to visit this weekend, before the rains, so this probably only means that.

QUOTE
comes to the apartment and knocks on the door.....he is trying to get me but one of the weapons is a feather duster(?!?)


Now that I recall, the feather duster could have been a cat toy.....you know the ones where it is a plastic stick and has feathers on the end? You kind of use it as a piece of string? At any rate, I have absolutely no idea why that would be considered a wepaon against me..........bizarre.

QUOTE
.......as I'm going out the door he throws a bean sac at me and I laugh, saying, "what, did you just want to see something hit me?"  The last thing I remember is running up a muddy hill and he begins to sprint and catch up to me but slips at the last second.......I laugh hysterically as I look back towards the muddy road and notice that my pace is steady...


Tells me that I am still defiant towards authority of any kind....laughing at an aggressor is usually an act of intentional disrespect......though if this dream were any indication, my defiance is quite hollow, as illustrated by the fact that I'm running away(fight or flight response). Though in matters of fear, the tidal wave dream has vexed me my entire life and the last time I had it, I turned to face it head-on.......so this confidence building is a slow and steady process.

Fairly standard dream for me, I suppose, but kinda of wierd.....the cat toy/feather duster is wierd. Maybe it represents that I don't percieve outside threats to be valid anymore.......or maybe it is reminiscent of the time I worked at Petco.....I guess I can't expect to understand everything about it........the most important parts of a dream are the general feelings and concepts, in my opinion.

QUOTE
What matters is what's in your heart and how you treat others and Earth itself.
From Pupp


I second that.thumbsup2.gif


QUOTE
what I meant was that your observations and feedback led me to reflect on an important part of my life that I'd more or less shoved in a corner and forgotten about, and everything made a lot more sense afterwards (hence the brain fart).
From Nightshade


That made my day. Thanks for clarifying.


QUOTE
(I promise I'll hold back on the fruit flinging!)


But I was all set to catch 'em when they arrived!!! Just Kidding, of course.

.
.
.
.Continuing my gratuitous use of smileys/emoticons.. beach.gif x.gif bartborg.gif




Posted by: Nightshade Feb 23 2005, 12:18 AM
Aaargh, I had quite a lengthy post written up when an accidental click of the middle mouse button in the wrong place closed out my active tab headbanger.gif

Oh well, there isn't much I can do about it besides re-writing now, is there?

QUOTE
Tells me that I am still defiant towards authority of any kind....laughing at an aggressor is usually an act of intentional disrespect......though if this dream were any indication, my defiance is quite hollow, as illustrated by the fact that I'm running away(fight or flight response).

Ah, I knew there was meaning there, but between an assumption that the feather duster and your reaction to having bean sacs thrown at you meant that you two were horsing around, rather than him being an agressor or authoritative figure, and me paying too much attention the the literal aspects of your dream, I lost it. Assumptions always seem to have a funny way of making things nonsensical.

I had a strange dream early this morning after waking up and falling back asleep. I didn't get a chance to write it down, but tried to remember it and retained this portion:


I was a raven flying out over the coast of the Queen Charlotte Islands (Skedans, to be precise -- it's an abandoned Haida Gwaii village I travelled to several years ago. My camera broke so I made sure to take some mental snapshots of the place). It wasn't like that other dream I had a while ago where I was someone else, I was still "me," just in a different form.

(A little background on this: I have a significant portion of Native blood in me, Mi'kmaq on my father's side, and I'm not sure exactly what on my mother's side apart from it being a West Coast tribe. I think it's Haida, mostly based on the connection I felt up in the Queen Charlottes. At the top of the heirarchy of Totems are the Eagle and the Raven. My connection has always been with Raven, I'm not sure if it's blood or if it's because my mom used to tell me the stories of Raven when I was a kid -- I think it's likely to be a bit of both.)

I spotted an enormous barge (for lack of a better word) sitting on the water. It was very organic looking, and was nearly large enough to be a floating city! There was a large, purple-ish gem (more like a pearl, really) sitting vertically in a raised portion of the thing reflecting the sunlight. The central portion of the barge was a long, thick tube, and there were perfect rows of tendril-like "arms," flattened where they lay upon the water, which curled up at the ends and were set with flat, dull black stones. It was quite beautiful, I'll have to draw it some time.

I flew in to get a closer look at this thing, and noticed that on each arm was a yellow scorpion. I spotted a grey seagull fighting with one of the scorpions, apparently looking for a quick meal. When it killed it, the scorpion vanished. The gull wasn't surprised by this, and methodically moved to the scorpion on the next arm over. I watched it repeat this process several times, and realized that the gull wasn't trying to eat the scorpions. This was a key, and the seagull was trying to unlock it. I was wondering how it would ever pull this off--there were so many of them, and the gull looked too exhausted to fly and had been stung several times.

That's about all I remember, I'm ready for the rotten fruit now scoping.gif

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 25 2005, 06:36 PM
What a cool dream!!! I'm actually at a loss for any interpretations but suspect the quotes below has got something to do with it.........this could be a result of your recent reflections......


QUOTE
My camera broke so I made sure to take some mental snapshots of the place)
             From NightShade


QUOTE
or if it's because my mom used to tell me the stories of Raven when I was a kid --
                                 From NightShade




I wish I could offer more, but I think you have this reflection thing going for you.......and truly, the best interpreter you have for yourself is you. Again, cool dream.....I would be interested in hearing your take on it......maybe the gull and scorpion has present day applications?

Posted by: Nightshade Feb 26 2005, 03:08 AM
Here's a crude sketch of what this thing looked like:
(It stretched for what must have been miles, but I didn't feel like drawing that many arms, platforms and scorpions)



user posted image


I think this one is a reflection of reflections, if that makes any sort of sense scratchinghead.gif.

In this case, I believe a little symbolism is needed to make heads or tails of it. I've always related the Raven with my "higher self," which would explain why my role in this dream was strictly observational, as well as why I wasn't in the body with which I associate myself. Seagulls are easily one of my least favorite birds (they do have their own beauty and grace about them, but it kind of gets lost in the squawking, trying to keep your food and belongings safe from them and dodging torrential rains of bird poop!), so it would make sense to me that my mind would choose a gull to demonstrate the contrast between my spiritual and my waking self -- while I do believe they are one in the same, from my conscious perspective they appear fragmented. The higher self observes while the lower self does.

And so in the dream, the raven observes while the gull goes after the lock. The organic appearance of the thing on the water also had some significance, I think what the gull was trying to unlock was...me, of all things...which I suppose would make sense as I've been trying to better understand myself and my programming lately. Locks and activation sequences seem to be a reocurring thing in my dreams, as well as the outcome being somewhat of a mystery. The scorpions; each a piece in the puzzle of self-awareness...prickly little suckers too, sometimes! Interesting how after fighting them, they would just...disappear. I have no idea why it had to be scorpions, maybe because they're not nice to look at but don't invoke Iraqi camel spider levels of terror.

The battered look of the seagull is most likely a simple reflection on how burnt out I've been feeling lately. I want to just be mindless for a little bit and not think about everything that I do, say and think (I hope sane people think about their thoughts too crazy.gif ) but the mind won't be silenced. Oh well, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger -- if I wasn't supposed to think, I would probably be glued to Who Wants to Be A Millionaire or something of the sort.

I'm really not sure exactly what I'm trying to tell myself, this is just my hypothesis.

Posted by: SubVolitional Feb 26 2005, 05:45 AM
Thank You, Night Shade, that was a very enjoyable read.......I think I'll bust out the fresh fruit for that one nyuknyuk.gif ..........


QUOTE
I think this one is a reflection of reflections, if that makes any sort of sense


Makes perfect sense.........



QUOTE
I'm really not sure exactly what I'm trying to tell myself, this is just my hypothesis.


All I want to say, really, is that it was an enjoyable read........sometines all it takes is to get the ball rollin' and mysteries don't seem to be as mysterious, or new ones pop up, making the quest all more exciting......imo, personal awareness is a lifelong quest and one that has the highest rewards........

P.S. I glue myself to Millionaire on occasion just to stop the thought process for a while........hope that doesn't just completely wipe out my credibility... winkNEW.gif

Posted by: Mark Feb 27 2005, 07:00 PM
I guess we need a fruit throwing icon soon - hehehe

Hi Nightshade and Sub Volitional

I'm still going to post my battle with the bull dream, but I need to edit the typos and add more details which are still in my head.

While I said I wasn't going to post anymore dreams, I must share this.

I just had one of the worst nightmares of my life.

I was battling a demon or satan himself.

I could not seem to kill him.

I was using the ONLY large blade in my apt... a machete.

In the dream, I was told I needed a sword but I could not locate it.

The dream lasted for a long time and it was truly disturbing.

I was hacking away at the demons and possibly satan himself but he would not die.

Eventually, I hacked away at his neck and face and it was totally a bloody mess. But I do not think I killed him. Mortally wounded perhaps?

Then the dream changed to a party atmosphere with a whole bunch of beautiful women.

Sort of a nice way to awaken than with the ugliness of battling demons and satan on my mind.

face.gif

Posted by: Mark Feb 28 2005, 11:12 PM
Had another strange dream last night.

I saw the moon thru the trees... it was a crescent shape, bright orange in color, and extremely large - like 10-20 times normal size.

Then I was taken up high above Earth and was looking down.

In quick flash frames, I was moved closer to Earth and I saw the mid west USA.

It was like a map and I saw an impact in Nebraska.

But of course, it twas just a dream.

I also had some more horrible nightmares and I'm actually afraid to go to sleep as I do NOT like what is happening in my dreams.

sigh.gif

Lord help meeee!

Posted by: Nightshade Mar 1 2005, 12:52 AM
QUOTE
P.S. I glue myself to Millionaire on occasion just to stop the thought process for a while........hope that doesn't just completely wipe out my credibility... winkNEW.gif

It's alright, I've got Family Guy and Futurama to zone out on, which really isn't any better than Millionaire. smileNew4.gif


PuPP, have you ever tried any lucid dreaming techniques? That's the absolute best thing I can think of for dealing with nightmares and other sleep related anxieties. I've never been able to dream lucidly at will, it happens when it wants to rather than when I want to, but I've found that simply trying can bring about a certain peace of mind that seems to repell many attacks and nightmares. I know all too well what it's like to be afraid to fall asleep...

For years I used to get terrible drowning dreams -- not always necessarily drowning in water, but several times a night not being able to breath. Then I would wake up but still couldn't breath for several minutes (always seemed like hours!), it wasn't that I was capable, it was as though I'd actually forgotten how to operate my lungs and breath.

I was afraid to even close my eyes for the longest time after what I'm certain was a demonic attack. It actually happened while I was wide awake, but the feeling was reminiscent of the transition between the waking state and sleep, so for a long time afterwards I would panick whenever I started to drift off.

Only one single person out of everyone I've told this to has ever believed me.

It happened when I was 15 and living (couch surfing, really as I didn't have a home at the time) with an alcoholic woman. I was wide awake with a terrible case of insomnia as usual. It was a small apartment, so I couldn't exactly get up, flick on the lights and start doing things when I couldn't sleep, so I would ususally just lay in the dark and think a lot. The ticking of the clock, usually faint and barely audible, grew louder and louder and louder while the silence of the night escalated into a deafening roar that made my head feel like it was going to explode. Then everything suddenly stopped and went dead silent. I looked over to my left (the back of the couch was the only thing to my right) and saw a tall shadowy figure looking over me. I wanted to scream and strike at it and run from it all at the same time, but couldn't move or make a sound. It extended its arm and reached through my forehead, then began pulling me out of my body. I tried to fight it although there didn't seem to be much I could do, but I sensed a battle for my soul going on in a place that I couldn't touch. It had managed to pull me out of my body from the hips upwards when it dissintegrated and I fell hard back into myself. I was so terrified that I didn't even want to breathe for the rest of the night, I didn't want to alert ANYTHING to the fact that I even existed at all.

I might have been willing to believe that this had been a dream like so many have told me, but I never fell asleep that night. I was wide awake the whole time. This thing left me some physical evidence too -- the throw blanket that I'd had covering one side of my face had two curved burn marks in it, like a rounded V where it had reached into my head. She tried to tell me it must be a cigarette burn, but I always smoked outside as she was an ex-smoker, and never brought that blanket out with me (besides which I have NEVER seen cigarette burns that look like that, I've even tried to replicate it!)

I thought for a long time that it hdn't returned because I'd "defeated" it, although now I think that that was rather arrogant of me. Something higher than myself drove it off, and I think it stayed away because it didn't NEED to come back. I provided it with fear and terror to feed on for a long time.

straightjacket.gif

Posted by: SubVolitional Mar 2 2005, 10:06 PM
I'm kind of living out in the dirt for awhile building a Renaissance faire, so I'll probably only get to post about once a week(no computer access).......just thought I'd let you guys know.......


Pupp, sorry to hear about the nightmares. I'll second what NightShade said about the lucid dreams. Lucid dreaming is a great excercise and the process of training your mind to do that is a meditative one and should help with the anxiety......

QUOTE
I was afraid to even close my eyes for the longest time after what I'm certain was a demonic attack.........so for a long time afterwards I would panick whenever I started to drift off.
                              From NightShade


I believe you NightSahde, because those two statements indicate a physical reaction. To have a reaction is to have an action. I don't know what to say beyond that though.......


Posted by: Mark Mar 3 2005, 03:55 PM
QUOTE
DREAM
Feb 14 2005
Mark J. Harper

My cat gets out of the apt. He's on a 6-8 foot high wall surrounding what appears to be a small nature preserve enclosed by some smaller walls and surrounded by what appear to be apartment buildings.

I see my cat Pookie run across the top of the wall, almost slipping off and falling in his dash to get at what appeared to be a hawk to me.

I call to him and go after him to bring him back and I stumble over the small 2 foot high block wall that was at the entrance. I hit it with my shins and feet because I didn't see it. I felt stupid for stumbling and not seeing it.

As I enter the preserve, all of the birds start flying away and small animals scattering. A small 4 legged bull immediately confronts me.

He is black and has a long thin body and is only about 4 feet tall at the shoulders.

We engage in battle and he's pushing me around. I have a firm grip on his horns and I struggle with him.  He's growling and snorting. He has small dull and fragmented horns, not sharp. I grab the left side of his head/horn and try to get up, but it is very hard as he's really strong.

I finally manage to break free from the dead lock we're in and go to jump over the small enclosure wall, thinking I'll be done with the animal, but the bull jumps over also and comes at me again.

This time I grab his horns and I tear off the front of his face and horns, but it was like a mask. It made him stop. I put them into a metal bowl. There are a bunch of lil ole white ladies sitting at park benches/tables eating or working on arts and crafts.

I'm swirling the metal bowl around with the head/face and horns in it and it's making a strange ringing type sound.

I tell them to give this to the caretaker. They tell me the manager is Sandy and they rave about her, how good she is.

I'm now inside the establishment of the caretaker/manager, and the place is like an arcade... a games funhouse for children and I see Sandy, and it's Thessa, and I say "I didn't know you were Sandy".

She's working on some game machines for all of the small children in the room.

I snapped awake soon after that.

Posted by: Nightshade Mar 10 2005, 01:25 AM
Wow, I'm not sure what to make of that one -- or rather, I can make too many things of it and don't know where to start as it's all so subjective.

QUOTE
This time I grab his horns and I tear off the front of his face and horns, but it was like a mask.

This part of the dream is the one that personally strikes me the most and gets the hamster wheel in my head turning

I had some rather strange ones last night...the last one before I woke up in particular. I was going through my old elementary school library with a friend, but all of the picture books in the younger kids' section were enormous volumes of material. There was a class of young kids, probably 1st grade, sitting on the carpet and a teacher giving them a vocabulary lesson that would certainly have any teacher promptly fired and sued by many parents (the things he was saying might have had something to do with the dream I had earlier in the night....blushNEW.gif ). The kids thought it was hilarious and were giggling like mad while my friend and I slipped in behind one of the shelves and listenned in.

I'm not sure why we were there in the first place, but she took one of the reference books off the shelf, tore out one of the pages and began rolling a joint with it. I noticed a pair of nail clippers sitting on the open book, grabbed them and used them to cut my left ear off. Not my whole ear, but the top part. It somehow managed to come off in a single snip, all in one piece, and I was amazed that it hadn't been excruciatingly painful. I'm not sure if it wasn't my intent to cut it off, or if I just feel that it wasn't my intent because the waking part of myself was so appalled at this act of self-mutilation. We left, and I headed home.

I had yet to see what it looked like, so I tried to hide it with my hair so that my man wouldn't notice whistlingNEW2.gif

"Home" wasn't home, but a small dark but cozy little house. I spent dinner trying to eat, hide my missing ear from him and figure out why I'd done it in the first place. Finally, I got to a mirror, and was surprised that rather than a bloody mess of missing body parts, as I thought I'd see, I had a slightly smaller and perfectly sculpted ear sitting happily on the left side of my head. The only problem was that they didn't match, so I figured it would be a grand idea to do the same to the other one, although I was a little apprehensive about it. While I'd noted that it hadn't been painful, it had stung and just overall felt very, very strange.


Stranger still, throughout today I've felt as if my left ear is missing, somehow. I have to touch it now and again to remind myself that it is, in fact, still there blinkNEW.gif

Posted by: SubVolitional Mar 10 2005, 06:15 AM
Hey guys, how is it going? Kind of got distracted with a fellow dream interpreter......as I'm sure you may know by now. At any rate..........


QUOTE
My cat gets out of the apt. He's on a 6-8 foot high wall surrounding what appears to be a small nature preserve enclosed by some smaller walls and surrounded by what appear to be apartment buildings.
                                            From Pupp


How often does your cat visit the outdoors? That is to say, is your cat an indoor or outdoor animal? My initial impression is that the start of this dream may be rooted in "everyday" concerns.


QUOTE
I see my cat Pookie run across the top of the wall, almost slipping off and falling in his dash to get at what appeared to be a hawk to me.

I call to him and go after him to bring him back.


If I had to guess, he is an indoor cat and you have to be aware of his whereabouts everytime you open the door because he wants to explore outside. I guess this because of the statement where Pookie is running on top of the wall and almost slips. That indicates to me an anxiety on what would happen to your cat if he were to get away.......

Notice I say anxiety. Anxiety doesn't have to be an overwhelming feeling to show itself in dreams. It can be the nagging feeling you get as an association with a particular activity. Every time you open the door, I'm guessing, you have another bout with this mild anxiety that is probably calmed after you close the door and your cat is safe. This is an activity that occurs everyday and is quickly dismissed......but the associated feeling does have an effect on you. Brings new meaning to "the small things in life," doesn't it?

Btw, I guess this because I have two small dogs and have similar experiences with their attempts at escape.......but maybe I misinterpreted in this case?


QUOTE
We engage in battle


Many of your dreams contain battle imagery. This is important for you to recognize. Beyond that, I don't know what to say.......

QUOTE
I'm now inside the establishment of the caretaker/manager, and the place is like an arcade... a games funhouse for children and I see Sandy, and it's Thessa, and I say "I didn't know you were Sandy".


Maybe you recognise words or expressions from Thessa's posts as Sandy's.........

QUOTE
and the place is like an arcade


Release of emotion after the big fight, maybe?



Interesting dream, NightShade. I really dont know what to make of it beyond a concern you may have with your ear or hearing. Have you recently had trouble hearing?

QUOTE
Stranger still, throughout today I've felt as if my left ear is missing, somehow. I have to touch it now and again to remind myself that it is, in fact, still there       
                                      From NightShade


Yet another example of how interactive dreams are with our conscious life.............

Posted by: Mark Mar 10 2005, 06:34 AM
Nightshade your dream freaked me out!

hehehe

Thanks for sharing it... very bizarre, it makes mine look less freaky indeed.

Cutting off your ear - shades of Van Gogh?

Yegads, I feel better already! smileyP.gif


Hey Sub Volitional, yeah, I saw you were distracted, hope the fair is going well and you didn't get too much dirt up your nose.

lol2.gif

Yes, my cat is an inside kitty so you're correct, I wig out when he gets out.

One day my upstairs reptilian neighbor bummed some cigarettes from me and somehow Pookie slipped out thru the open screen door. About an hour later I heard something at the door - he wanted back in - real bad and his tail was all poofy!

But the battle with the bull and the demons when I was using a machete were truly freaky dreams.

I've been having about 5 dreams a night, but they are overwhelming me so unless it's something really trippy, I'm not posting them.

For the most part, they havn't been nightmares as of late. It was getting to the point that I didn't wanna go to sleep.

The strange thing is my gf doesn't remember her dreams or she doesn't dream at all.

Posted by: SubVolitional Mar 10 2005, 05:03 PM
QUOTE
hope the fair is going well and you didn't get too much dirt up your nose.
             
                                                          From Pupp


'Tis going well......I worked out computer access, so I'm satisfied for now. The dirt is something you get used to.......lol2.gif


QUOTE
The strange thing is my gf doesn't remember her dreams or she doesn't dream at all.
                                                          From Pupp


I'm inclined to believe that she doesn't remember them......maybe she's not interested in remembering them.........

Posted by: SubVolitional Jul 21 2008, 06:47 PM
*Bump*

And 'Hi!'...

Checking things out...congrats Mark...!

Posted by: SubVolitional Jun 19 2010, 07:08 PM
Are we done..I have learned much more...smileNew4.gif

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