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> New Gallery at Anarchaeology.com, Photos of more "Phoenician" symbols


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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 09:34 AM
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I've just posted more of the "symbol" formations sent to me by Rocky from southeastern Oklahoma. These were not presented on Ancieent Lost Treasures and I invite you to submit your comments and speculations on the forum at < http://www.anarchaeology.com >. I've already noted the fossilized mud filled crack explanation pro forma with the mainstream geologists, so let's dispense with that for the nonce in favor of any alternative ideas. The close juxtapossition of the rectangle AND oval in adjoining blocks makes me question the geological mechanism which should be uniform in results as befits a non-godfearing Uniformitarian theory. lol.gif


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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 10:33 AM
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The close juxtapossition of the rectangle AND oval in adjoining blocks makes me question the geological mechanism which should be uniform in results as befits a non-godfearing Uniformitarian theory."

Mud sediments get submerged over vast time-earthquakes-earth changes etc, then undergo compression and *folding* of the sediments.
Compression and folding can cause the forms you refer to, especially if there is still moisture, or if once buried the sediments still have water that saturates the sediments.
Think compression and folding, coming from a variety of directional vectors over time, while the sediments are buried in the Earth..
Later uplift over eons, exposes the compressed and folded sedimentary sections that then get broken up by whatever process, and then erode away., revealing interior forms thru exposure.

Notice that there is still rounded sections of "mortar" surrounding the interior matter of the lattice work, in a 3-d enveloping of the ...bricks? ...the stones that are present in ine pictures surrounded by "mortar" aid the artificial possibilities, but as a stone is deposited in a mud plane, and sinks over time , especially with summer dryness, then subsequent winter freezes, , and then thaws, stones slowly get submerged or subducted into a mud depositional planes,and eventually get submerged as strata... . .

I can see this in my own yard with the hexagonal cement stepping stones, that sink further and further into the yard over time.
Right now the frozen soils are bulging over the stones quite apparently, as when water freezes , it expands, over the directions of least resistance-up and over the flat stones.Eventually they will become buried over very little time, as the stepping stones in my yard are now 70-75% submerged from only 20 years of placement there.



I will watch your forum now and then, but to contribute would be a negative influence there, so I will refrain, and keep comments here.


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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 11:01 AM
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I don't consider your comments negative influence Vianova, it's just that the ledger is heavy with the conventional explanations and I've read most of them over the five years since I discovered these things. Since it has been shown in contextual archaeological setting that these blocks were used in precolombian times as archictectural elements at least in a rudimentary fashion, it occured to me that they may have been used in a more symbolic fashion such as the incorporation of the geode in the stelae at Copan. I'm not dismissing the geological explanation but hardcore sceptical geologists have contacted me and admitted that even for natural phenomena these are extremely rare and deserve further study. There are other peripheral cultural hints such as the tablets found by Mr. Self and the tiny skeletons, the vertical "mine" shafts, the local Choctaw traditions of a gold mine in the area, cachement basins and hilltop fortification arrangements of these stones and other ephemeral word of mouth anecdotal clues which keep me probing. Yes, I realize that such flimsy clues are not up to the standards of mainstream science but I'm not that finicky as a citizen first class of the Demon Haunted World.

"Out, out brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow."
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Aardvaark, Oklahoma bartborg.gif


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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 11:44 AM
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The fourth picture shows the "3-d enveloping" or spherical covering of the mud layering,
in the far left upper segmented portion.
This makes no sense to me as an artificial feature
The adhered rocks in rectangular form in this picture , are actually a separate depositional layer
of compositional variance to the mud layers,that has hardened with the rest of the strata.
Certainly there is some questionable attribution to geologic process,
but the most damning of the artificial attributions is in picture 5 , or the last one, which most definitely geologic in origin, and since found in the same vicinity, it tends to lend evidence for them all to be geologic constructs.

I suppose at this point the artificial attribution needs to be addressed as to construction parameters in the original form.
They are obviously suppossed to be walls or dwelling components of structural integrity.
If constructed by hand with "mortars" etc,
with initially wet materials,
a finger or hand print, or tool marking would seem to be an evidential priority.
This is considered primitive masonry is it not?
Also checking for any nearby{within 20 miles} similar strata would be prudent.


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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 12:31 PM
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Hey Tex,
I suppose an explanation of my skepticism based analyses should be tendered forth.

As a youngster , I hiked many miles searching for fossils , and artifacts in Colorado.
Before and after that I lived in Germany and visited many castles, and ruins in Europe in general.
I would sit in the back seat of my parents Ford Taunus in 61-64 counting the castles on the hillsides while traveling.
As an army brat in Germany we hunted for old weaponry all the time,
and I visited all the great European museums as a child.
During summers off of school, we as army brats would invade old ruins and hang out in small castles , thus visually exposing myself to european art history.
Stonehenge was one of the many visits.

College days were a limited but sufficient enough geology education,
and for the last 30 years I have been an antique dealer with a personal focus on cultural artifacts.

I have personally handled literally thousands of artifacts from most cultures historically,
feeling them, scratching them with fingernails, smelling them , tasting them, rubbing them ,testing them, INTUITING them, observing every nook and cranny of them.etc

Being in contact with many other artifact dealers over 30 years ,
I have seen tons of authentic artifacts, and for every one that is authentic ,
I have seen about 10 fakes or repros of similar items.
This rate of fake and repro has dramatically taken an upward swing in production, quality, and expertise in faking.
Of the thousandfs of artifacts that I have actually handled to the point of fornicational ingress-Ha !- I have also seen another 10 times that many in personal observation, or pictoral representation.

Keeping up with the profusion of fakes and spurious attributions is a hard job.
Especially with cuprite exhibiting bronzes from Java,
and terracottas fronm Java that do not conform to TL testing ...
I think it was due to anorthite being present in the terracotta
throwing off the age analysis.
Superb Nepalese fake bronzes,
Superb precolombian potteries that are later made
-see the museum of Toronto fakes.
Many times the dealer cannot say either way.
If there is even a 2% chance of the item being a fake or repro of quality,
no matter how convincing the 98% is,
often the item turns out to be wrong.
Humans WANT the discovery to be genuine, and that is what fuels most errant attribution.

Thus it is a practised skepticism from actual experience dealing with fakes and real items that keeps a keen eye open.
I am actually far more open than most scientiststhat calim expertise.

Currently I have a Jaguar Mayan cylinder with unbelieveable quality,
most likely far beyond the expertise of painted pottery fakers,
but it is also very perfect in condition,
and would be a prime target for advanced fakery , as it is worth 20K as real.

I have looked at this for a long time, and still am not convinced it is a fake.
there is certainly evidence of "tiny crackle" style crazing of the painted surfaces,
or at least burial marks of minutia.
The painted workmanship is identical to the best of Mayan art.,
something I do not see in fakes, as the fakes do not seem to be of capability to copy the best of Mayan art.
And this would be either the ultimate in attempted fakery,
or it is real...but that 2% of doubt...
I know...TL test it...eventually.
It is buried at my house here for a reason,
as I have suspicions to its incredible condition, and provenance,
as explained in another post here in this forum
on Precolombian artifacts , and though it was aquired quite legally from a collectors wife who sold the collection at auction...when he died...
-nuff said.


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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 02:03 PM
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The fishweirs the Oklahoma Archeological Survey found did not incorporate mortar rather these formations were used as a natural source of ready made blocks. This seems to be the case in other drywall/foundation structures in Oklahoma. Soft sedimentary blocks were quaried for foundations in the short lived Antelope Creek villages in the OK panhandle as well as at The Buried City in Ochiltree County Texas not far away. Current thinking is that these represent the initial stages of a Puebloan style culture attempted by the Athapaskan Plains Apache which was aborted suddenly. This was probably due to depredations by the Shoshonean Comanches, Utes and possibly Osage. The reverse can be seen among the Caddoan Wichitas who forsook sedentary agriculture for the Plains lifestyle.

This is to say that while the conscious construction of the blocks themselves would be really niffty it is not the sine qua non of the mystery. Stone architecture beyond the Puebloan II sphere is just now coming to light in North America east of the Upper Rio Grande. The mysterious glyphs in the Kenton Cave of Cimarron County Oklahoma as well subterranean tesselated pavements found in the sixties near Norman, Oklahoma together with the "barrels" of metallic minerals found there hint to me of something far older than an incipient masonry in North America. I know this is a will o' the wisp sort of pursuit but it does provid diversion for me and my iconoclastic pals.

Curiously, I learned third hand that a Houston art appraiser had pronounced the convoluted serpentine panels as petroglyphy when an enthusiastic rockhound found the photos at the Viewzone article where I first published them. I had never considered them to be petroglyphs seriously but my tongue in cheek caption "What can they mean?" used to mimic Gary Vey's breathless enthusiasm was obviously taken far too leterally by some. The no nonsense petroglyphic gurus flayed the idea savagely and I suspect some of my hostile reception in the skeptical circles was fallout from that. I've seen Europeans take on the photos as proof of ET batteries and other outre' agendas. Frankly it has been a monumental struggle for me to resist spinning my own science fiction saga about these but I do have a shred or two of integrity left. At a bare minimum it is eye candy and you never know when reality may shift right beneath your feet. bouncemirror.gif


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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 08:50 PM
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"This seems to be the case in other drywall/foundation structures in Oklahoma. Soft sedimentary blocks were quaried for foundations in the short lived Antelope Creek villages in the OK panhandle as well as at The Buried City in Ochiltree County Texas not far away...."

The recent Oklahoma pictures you have refered to , then are pieces of natural sedimentary deposits that were "quarried" then used as "drywall/foundation structures"...?





The mentionong of petroglyphs at Kenton caves spurred a search , and I found some nice pictutres
do you have any more?

The "glyphs" were not too inspiring but interesting nonetheless

http://www.ou.edu/cas/archsur/counties/cimarron.htm

The Kenton Caves Sites

In 1928, a county farm agent and avid amateur archeologist named William "Uncle Billy" Baker discovered a cave in Cimarron County near the border with New Mexico with obvious signs of ancient human occupation. The very dry climate allowed for remarkable preservation of materials which have usually disappeared in the archeological record with the passage of time.

Fieldwork by the Colorado Museum of Natural History, the Oklahoma Historical Society and the University of Oklahoma continued throughout the 1930's. Seven cave and shelter sites were eventually identified near Kenton, all with archeological remains.

Among artifacts recovered from the Kenton Caves are hide and yucca-fiber sandals, shell, bone and wooden beads, squash rinds, beans, baskets, stone arrowpoints and spearpoints, and a wooden atlatl (spear throwing tool).

Unfortunately, in spite of the incredible preservation of rarely-found artifacts at this series of rockshelters, there is much more unknown than known about the people who lived there. Since most of the sites were excavated before rigorous scientific techniques, archeologists are unable to say with certainty who the Kenton cave inhabitants were, where they came from, or even when they lived here.

Because of the range of artifact styles, it is believed that occupation of the caves may have continued through several thousand years. People of the late Archaic, see chart below, who used the atlatl and spears for hunting, probably lived in the caves. The most recent Native American inhabitants were probably people from the Protohistoric time period some 500 years ago when European explorers had begun colonizing North America. The presence of European glass trade beads in one cave are indicators of this period.






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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 11:16 PM
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Yes, the OU archaeologists recently revisited the Buried City and found many of these foundations along Wolf Creek which indicated the builders had moved as they used up resources. There is some indication of a relation to the Alibates Quarry but it is not clear when. Alibates was in use since paleoindian times up until the historic period. Other paleoindian shelters indicate the use of natural cobbles and boulders for shelter augmentation and flooring. The oldest is at the Gault site. This is not true masonry but rather simple stacking and placement. The site you found for Kenton Cave also has some of these foundations listed in eastern Oklahoma. It looks like a case of architecture imitating nature.


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Posted: Jan 16 2005, 11:29 PM
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I want to get this straight for my own understanding of what i am supposed to be looking at.

"This is not true masonry but rather simple stacking and placement."

so the sections of petrified mud cracks,
are used as simple stacking and placement?

I suppose so,
they could probably easily break away sections of flat strata of mud stone cracks
in conforming semi-blockage.

are the segments found in your Oklahoma pictures ,
found in groupings?
piles?


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Posted: Jan 17 2005, 12:18 AM
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The OAS has some mediocre pics in the Pushmataha sections but they are verified culturally. I have only suspicions that the ones at my site are placed in a flooring section but it's pretty well demolished. The only artifacts I found there are the bowl and scraper and some debitage. The Sandy creek site has a few places where blocks seem to be placed in a natural wall as they don't match the surrounding stone. The Outpost in Atoka site had dozens of lithic worked piece at the base of the formation and there is a clearly artificial stacked block wall with right angles near it.


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Posted: Jan 18 2005, 05:56 PM
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Vianova, here is something a bit more to your tastes than Kenton Cave a bit to the north in Kansas.

http://www.nckcn.com/homepage/j-kcrispin/mystery.html

Your art dealing expertise may help these folks.
After answering your question on the drywall, I remembered that the most compelling photo I have of a true masonry wall is on the road to the "Phoenician Fortress" ; I believe it is in the same gallery. Unfortunately it is on private land just beyond the fence clearly owned by those ruled by the territorial imperative. robotskull.gif

Here it is: http://www.anarchaeology.com/fortress/photos/photo_36.html


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Posted: Jan 18 2005, 11:01 PM
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This may not inspire some but it's the oldest known pavement in North America and some of the earliest artwork as well.
http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/kincaid/stones.html

A similar pavement perhaps older but still controversial is the one found at the Gault Site, in Bell County Texas.


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Posted: Jan 19 2005, 07:34 PM
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Hey Tex, those are some interesting stones.

Is there an approximate date for their creation?




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Posted: Jan 20 2005, 07:05 AM
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The stones at Kincaid and similar ones at Gault date to around 10,000 BC. The oldest date at Gault is around 12,000 BC.


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Posted: Jan 20 2005, 11:16 PM
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Wow, that's pretty old.

Thanks Tex.

Imagine if we had been taught this stuff when we were kids.

But instead we were taught that the american natives were all primitive savages and nomads. Teepees and tomahawks and they scalped the white man and raped the white women.

I've learned that scalping was a practice of pale face who speaks with forked tongue and was designed to instill fear into the early settlers and to enrage them to agree to genocide of native populations. I believe that rape was also a common practice of pale face who speaks with forked tongue.

Much like what's happening right now in the mid east.

"They hate us for our freedoms"

"They're gonna kill us all..."

So we'd better liberate the arab children of their arms and legs, blow up their homes, and businesses, their energy systems, their water and sewage treatment plants before they get us all!

And we better steal their resources while we're there, loot their museums of ancient antiquities, and burn all of their books and libraries.

It's so sad what an inhumane greedy species can do.




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"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
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